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On March 12 2011 10:02 Jimmeh wrote:As mentioned in the OP (which I'm guessing you didn't read fully), the build relies on being constantly aggressive. You expect to lose your first wave of marines but, by attacking, you make them use up all their sentry energy. By the time your next wave comes, they'll only have enough energy for a couple forcefields at most so you can at least snipe the sentries. Then, once their sentries are gone, the constant pressure means they just fold after a while.
My thinking wasn't that the Protoss would continue to hold with Sentries, but rather would hold the first wave with no casualties, and then be able to engage the second wave simply by having superior numbers. Also, on maps that aren't Metalopolis or Shattered Temple, those 6 or 7 sentries can block the choke the marines are coming through 5 or 6 times in a row. Done right, the by the time the Protoss player is getting low on sentry energy, he should be able to have an outright superior army because he shouldn't have been losing anything. I'm not sure if that army would be able to hold up against the incredible cost effectiveness of Marines, though.
Also, just occurred to me. How does well microed blink Stalkers fair against Marines with stim when both are in large numbers?
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Since you said you never lose, even if you tell people it is coming, perhaps you should go to Korea and win the gsl or win every other tournament. A 100% win rate in PvT is truly quite impressive and would guarantee you many wins just think wgat you could do if you had a TvZ and TvT build we could stop playing the game. Thank you for showing me the unbeatable TvP strategy, Starcraft 2 has been partially solved; no reason to play PvT now onto other great problems of our age!
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Theres just one huge flaw in your build. A lot of your reaction to collosus is "Snipe the rangeless collosus". But what happens if the protoss waits for range, or actually bothers to micro them? One of my builds (and quite usual one) for close position vs terran is simply 1gate robotics collosus, and attack with 2 collosus with range. You wont be able to just "snipe" them with pure marines. Ever encountered this?
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This looks ridiculously effective, and I cant wait to try it tonight!
Do you ever tech up to medivacs? I think once your third is up, they would be a great think to have, since your income will be much higher than the protoss'. You have to get a factory to get an armory for your upgrades anyways, so you're already halfway up the tech tree
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Neat idea, I'm definitely giving it a shot since my TvP has hit a wall recently.
Awesome layout as well, lotta work went into this, and we the readers appreciate it.
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On March 12 2011 09:48 PhiliBiRD wrote:
once a toss sees your simply massing marines, cant he just expand defend and mass colussus/sentry?
The point of this build is mobility and keeping both armies small. The stalker/collosus/sentry ball isn't very effective in small numbers and is extremely immobile, that's why this build works.
I really like this build. Builds that are attacking constantly and very mobile interest me a lot. I'll definitely be trying this out soon.
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Marines DPS is indeed insanely strong and I'm saying there are Marine builds which could work very well, but I'm not exactly sure on what level. Would need to try this out but I'm calling most Protoss on a decent - high level can hold it off.
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@OP
What's your win percentage with this build?
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So what would you say is a good defense vs this type of play? Would getting tons of stalkers and sprinkle in sentries for gardian shields work? Also maybe upgrading armor at a forge?
Perhaps adding cannons so that you can trade minerals for minerals to defend, instead of gas for minerals?
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I think dealing with a style like this requires Toss players to play in a way they're not really used to, and so this ends up being really effective.
Overall, I'd imagine that as the game moves on into the later stages, you'd need to have observers all over the place so you could anticipate small marine groups poking around at your bases and deal with them without leaving other areas exposed. In a sense, the observers would be the Toss player's way of challenging the Terran's map control from insane aggression and harassment.
Anyway, that's just my theorycraft. As for getting into a later game scenario, I'm not sure what type of openings would be best or how to adjust current popular openings to deal with this.
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I can pretty much guarantee 100% it wont work vs a good player, you can do double forge mass gates as P and crush only marines, or simply make 1 collosus and protect it..
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On March 12 2011 13:06 Xingke wrote:
Day9 did a recent daily on a pure Marine style as well. It was Rainbow vs someone I can't remember. Was very cool to watch it in action.
Mentioned in the OP -_-;;
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How do you respond 3 gate expand, scouting your many rax
>>> forge canons defend expo, 2 base colossus move out with deathball.
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This is basically what I do (definitely a lot less refined) in every 3v3 and 4v4 where i random terran... except i EVENTUALLY get some medivacs
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I didn't realize MKP browsed these forums on a smurf
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I tried this a couple times today. It just simply doesn't work in mid masters or higher. You simply cannot engage a protoss who doesn't FE up a ramp. When he sees this build he just sits in his base until he has enough sentries/army to move out and your marines simply don't do any cost effective damage. Unless the protoss blindly fast expos it's a BO loss against anything else, and even then you will have issues anyways.
That's also not taking into account that early stalker harass really shuts you down early game against decent players simply because they can kite marines and take no hp damage.
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You seem really defensive so I dont expect to get a nice reply with this comment but IMO this build is terriable along with the overall idea of it. Personally I dont like marines at all to begin with (im a T player yes) but they are a good unit
I dont know what your rank is in masters but I got to 3000 point masters and I must say if I tried somthing like this it would have to be really cheesy and still have a bad chance at winning. YES I SAW THE VIDEOS but FF's own marines microed stalkers early on when you dont have stim ruins this, a zealot stalker poke or 4 gate would beat this unless you just layed down a million bunkers but that's no agressive and still I dont think would really hold well.
I dont like it sorry =(
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Well, if you do this build a few times, you might learn more about how to abuse marines in a not ridiculous build.
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I don't like the way the protoss played in the demo video. If the protoss played slightly better with more sentries and zealots, the marines wouldn't have done as much damage. Stalkers aren't particularly great against marines. He needed Guardian Shield and Zealots to tank and Force Fields to prevent kiting.
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EPT
