|
On April 01 2011 09:47 iChau wrote:
With 1 gate fe, 3-5 cannons + 2 gateways once I see no expo by 8:30 minute mark. Mass zealots/sentries, rendering PDD quite useless. I also chronoboost only gateways if my +1 armor did not finish yet.
PDD will render your cannons useless... your composition will get ROLF-stomped-crushed... been there done that,,, its not that good.
|
I have been fiddling with a FE version of this build, since i love it so much, I basically took the idea from another build, that get a OC after the factory is being built. The build is the same idea , except you are on 2 fact, 2 starports, 1 barracks, with the mineral build up u can do the same thing and get the two extra barracks.... I push around 13-14 mins. with 6 thors and 5 banshee and a raven..... I really am still fiddling with the idea, of joining to very sexy strats together... So far I have only been trying it against zergs. Its just wayyy to overwhelming of a push at 13 minutes. When your pushing out you are rallying 2 thors at a time, 2 banshees and 3 marines, off of two bases u can almost do this constantly.
Very deadly. Once I have the build order in concrete I will share it.
|
Its very sketchy though early game. what u can do, is make some hellions to harass a bit, and force them to make roach.
|
I found it's affordable to expo when you're pushing out with the 3 thors and also maintain worker production, delaying an scv here and there to squeeze a thor out. Is this really *that* all-in if it's such a powerful push anyway?
It's a perfect push for XNC, but has anybody tried this on one of the much larger maps - Typhon or altar for instance?
|
I've had quite a bit of success with this build against T or P that FE. I've found that adopting the mindset that "at 10 minutes I'm going to grab everything and just go kill him" helps: usually I have 3 or 4 thors, a gaggle of marines, and 4+ banshees. Bring a few SCVs as a meatshield and unless the opponent has specifically scouted it (which is tough to do with raven and thors), it is very difficult to stop. Throwing down a few bunkers helps immensely as many toss players I have come across put on early pressure when they scout the thor, or just wind up 4gating me.
For protoss, I think the solution is to very actively scout/poke/pressure, and try to get as much shit out on one base as possible. Perhaps blink stalker harass?
Terran it loses its effect if they go fast tanks. If they FE it's usually fairly easy to finish them off.
I have not tried it against zerg but I suspect it will be equally effective. Lack of pressure from T usually makes Z drone up real hard and that is not helping their army composition. 10 or so minutes is generally when mutas pop out, and if Z invests too heavily in mutas, they are in real trouble from marines/thors. If they go roach heavy that may work, but then there are banshees. I'm excited to try it out.
edit: I have only played against low diamond high plat players. Judging from other posts it looks to be somewhat effective at higher leagues as well. I only lost once to a very well timed 4gate that I had failed to scout.
|
if you read my posts,,, extreamly effective, even at the 3300 diamond levals, well before reset obvi... liffle more work involved, aka micro. Extreamly effective.
defending 4 gates, fuck the bunkers, scrap them, what i do, is push to get the thor out asap, take 4-5 scvs off the line for repair, and defend. easily makes the toss run home like little girls... they lose to many units attempting to even break down your wall.
im still fiddling around with this in terran, in my post above it tells you what comps i have played against and have done well against. PDD works awesome against rauders (a thors worst enemy). dealing with tanks, usually takes some micro and a bit of patience, like any tvt, wait for them to be unsieged or catch them undfended and let the banshees take them out one by one.
This build really just eats up iechoics build to pieces.... by the time they even see you have thors, its way to late for him to go BCs. I usually keep a banshee or a thor back at the mineral line, until the attack, just incase of the sneaky drops.
Hell even a 2 thor push 97 percent of the time will rolfstomp a iechoic strat, but thats just me, or maybe my luck lol. Not saying id beat iechoic himself, but everyone who usually goes this route and i scoute it, i just giggle inside. because I know exactly what hes doing.
|
On April 01 2011 11:49 Quotidian wrote:It's a perfect push for XNC, but has anybody tried this on one of the much larger maps - Typhon or altar for instance?
guess I'll answer my own question. It's still really good cross possitions on a map like typhon peaks.
Even a horribly executed, slightly confused version of the build will do well against a lot of standard protoss builds
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/157574-1v1-terran-protoss-backwater-gulch
(name of the link is wrong for some reason - it's on typhon)
|
Wow,,, anyways i have been doing this strat with great success on 1v1.... even in the high diamond leval.
I taught my buddy it who is a low leval bronze player, but i made him practice the build like 30 times until he had it down pat, together we are a silver team, that just got bumped to gold.
But in 2v2 TT VS PP, we got steam rolled by a toss who made 2 collosis each, so 4 total, and both had a handfull of stalkers.
So no matter what the splash from 4-5 colosis just wrecks this build. Its definatly a lot harder to pull off in 2v2 even when both players are doing the exact same build, well i get more units than he does because hes clearly a bit slower with his macro.
we then had a PZ match, we did really well, infestors are a bitch! jesus christ.
Anyways the point of my post, is even with only 4-5 collosis, vs our 8 collosis , marines and banshees, we some how still got rolled pretty damn bad.
IM almost starting to think for 2v2, if it would be a good idea to get a shield upgrade and maybe the 250mm cannon, if the mins and gas is there, and maybe push 1 min later. What do you guys think?
2v2 PP Vs TT i almost always see a rush from protoss to build as many collosis as possible, so what do you guys think I should do?
when both of us are using this build? Opt for the 250mm cannon? or is it better off to get shield.
i should stated we both did bring our SCVS... maybe 8-10 each.... i was wondering also for 2v2. When i set my scvs to repair, whats the best way to keep them on my thors, instead of my scvs running to my buddies thors and scvs. nothing more annoying when my scvs are healing his shit instead of mine.
|
Just tried this cause I've been having huge problems playing macro against Toss (they just a move their deathball whatever composition I have). First game I got 4gated and lost (although it was somewhat close), 2nd game I got 3gate Voidray'd and lost. This build is strong only if your opponent doesn't go for early pressure.
|
I disagree. The only thing I've lost to is cheese and (failure to adapt to) voidrays.
My winrate against protoss is absurdly high (mid diamond) using this build, against FE it's almost an autowin at my level. I include a preemptive bunker to stop early stalker pressure or 4WG. I don't like Banshee first for harass (it won't do significant damage anyway) but prefer Raven first to get the extra PDD when attacking. I move out right when the third Thor is finished, and take ~12 SCVs with me. Right behind me is the fourth Thor being produced, and additional Banshees and Marines from three barracks. With minimal micro to focusfire Colossii you just roll the Protoss as they usually don't have enough stuff to stop this when executed perfectly.
As an alternative you could move out when the second Thor is finished, especially against FE this seems a bit stronger due to hitting earlier as the Protoss is outproducing you.
|
Meh, this allin comes very late. Most allins arrive at 10 min, while this allin leaves the terran base at 11 minute mark. If protoss has made a rather quick expo, his expo will kick in and destroy this push.
|
Someone said that it works great against Z aswell, but I tried it against Z (mind you only one time) and he massed lings, and it destroyed it hard, he had around 4 queens and spines aswell, scouted banshee I guess. But 1st game vs z did not work out 0-1 vs Z 5-1 vs Toss
Good build vs toss for sure, no doubt about it.
|
On April 28 2011 08:06 KenZo- wrote:
Someone said that it works great against Z aswell, but I tried it against Z (mind you only one time) and he massed lings, and it destroyed it hard, he had around 4 queens and spines aswell, scouted banshee I guess. But 1st game vs z did not work out 0-1 vs Z 5-1 vs Toss
Good build vs toss for sure, no doubt about it.
i do this build vs z and on low low diamond level it has worked ok so far, i usually open 1-1-1 with reactor on factory, get out 2-4 hellions and 1 viking from starport, send viking to snipe overlords etc. and send out 4 hellions and 5-6 marines to take towers and poke into zerg expo.
if spines pull back and try to prevent him from getting a ling to ur base to scout what ur doing, as im doing this little poke im grabbing my natural, and adding 2 more factories, while still pumping marines from 1 rax. get ur expo going and try to see if hes going ling/bling/muta or roach infestor (very important). if going roach i cut a few thors and get more tanks with siege. move out right after zerg gets his third going, you can usually take care of his third and theres not much he can do.
also try to get a raven in there somewhere to help snipe creep spread.
|
I did this today and ended up fighting a 1-base colossus build, but he only had 2 out by the time I attacked him.
We traded armies, but I was more cost efficient. I also started my second CC after I started pushing out (@11 mins), and I had my natural up when he just started it (I won it later)
Is it a good idea to start a CC when you push out? I mean, if you can get your opponent's natural down along with the army while losing your own, you could still be ahead because your CC is about 50-75% done? I'm now talking about situations where you can't kill your enemy outright... Or is is just too all-in?
|
if they did like a 3 gate robo FE you should be able to take theirs down if not kill them outright, but if for some crazy reason they fight it off, their expo should die, and then if u need to pull back and grab ur natural and you should be ahead. but usually if u keep constant pressure you should win. forgot to add, once tech lab is done on starport make raven first before banshee, this way it will have enough energy to drop 2 defense drones, 1 to kill expansion and one to bust ramp if u have to
|
the counter is a lot of zealots, some sentrys and voids. If toss opened with robo, colossus may also work, but voids are better. If protoss expanded early he shall have a lot bigger army.
|
This build is sick strong, I have won my last 5 TvPs out of 6, and gotten into diamond because my TvP used to be very bad.
However, the only time I lost was when my opponent went for a relatively fast expo and a super fast psi storm. I was on my way to his base while he attacked, he stormed my marines and feedbacked my raven and some banshees. His zealots did some noticeable damage, and I was left over with 3 medium HP thors and a low hp banshee... My opponent however blind-countered my build because he had no idea what was going inside my main. Question is, how would I fight off (if possible) this kind of a counter?
Here is the replay:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/171253-1v1-terran-protoss-backwater-gulch
My build order still needs bit refinement, but I'm sure that counter would've done sick damage to my rush anyways.
|
You lost that game because of huge macro failure. Your foodcount at 10:00 should be around 85 with this build (against easy AI even 90 is doable!), yours was only 60. Even worse, you only had 26 scvs. That's just bad. You were also pretty slow, moving out at 11:30ish while this should be 10:45 latest (with three Thors that is).
Some notes:
- Always be producing scvs, every second of the game, until you have 30.
- Always be producing marines out of your first barracks.
- Use factory to build techlab for starport to get your Raven out faster.
- You want three barracks fully running when you push out, you had two.
- I personally like to walloff with SD-Rax-SD, and only add one bunker to protect against early agression.
I suggest you practice the build a lot more against the AI, until you can consistently get to at least 85 food at 10:00, and have your third Thor out shortly after.
|
On May 01 2011 23:38 joeppp wrote:
You lost that game because of huge macro failure. Your foodcount at 10:00 should be around 85 with this build (against easy AI even 90 is doable!), yours was only 60. Even worse, you only had 26 scvs. That's just bad. You were also pretty slow, moving out at 11:30ish while this should be 10:45 latest (with three Thors that is).
Some notes:
- Always be producing scvs, every second of the game, until you have 30.
- Always be producing marines out of your first barracks.
- Use factory to build techlab for starport to get your Raven out faster.
- You want three barracks fully running when you push out, you had two.
- I personally like to walloff with SD-Rax-SD, and only add one bunker to protect against early agression.
I suggest you practice the build a lot more against the AI, until you can consistently get to at least 85 food at 10:00, and have your third Thor out shortly after.
Yes, I'm still not mastering the build yet. I haven't figured out the exact order how to build my stuff, but I find it really hard to produce constantly from all buildings while not getting supply blocked.
A detailed version of the exact build order till the 10:45 mark would be appreciated...
|
This is how I do it.
Remarks
- Continuous scv production until you hit ~30, only then should you cut some.
- Continuous marine production from all barracks.
- Raven first to get enough energy for an extra PDD.
- Banshee after Raven, then Thor, Thor, Banshee, Thor, Banshee.
- Your third Thor should be finished around 10:30.
Build order
- 10 SD, 12 Rax, 13 Gas, 15 OC, 16 SD, 18 Fact, 20 Gas (superstandard)
- 22 SD, 25 Starport, 26 Bunker, 27 Techlab@Factory, 30 Swap Factory & Starport, 30 SD, 35 Armory.
- 37 2xSD, 42 Techlab@Factory, 43 Rax, 56 Rax.
- From 53 onwards nonstop SD.
This buildorder is very tight, and you can absolutely not get supply blocked or you're screwed. I find it easier to execute to look at the specific orders for the constructing SCVs themselves:
- i: 10 SD, Rax, SD, Factory, Starport, SD, Armory, wait 20s, SD, SD, SD, ...
- ii: 22 SD, Bunker, Back to mining
- iii: 37 SD, Rax, Rax, Back to mining
- iv: 37 SD, Back to mining
Hope this helps;)
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
