|
On May 02 2011 00:41 joeppp wrote:
This is how I do it.
Remarks
- Continuous scv production until you hit ~30, only then should you cut some.
- Continuous marine production from all barracks.
- Raven first to get enough energy for an extra PDD.
- Banshee after Raven, then Thor, Thor, Banshee, Thor, Banshee.
- Your third Thor should be finished around 10:30.
Build order
- 10 SD, 12 Rax, 13 Gas, 15 OC, 16 SD, 18 Fact, 20 Gas (superstandard)
- 22 SD, 25 Starport, 26 Bunker, 27 Techlab@Factory, 30 Swap Factory & Starport, 30 SD, 35 Armory.
- 37 2xSD, 42 Techlab@Factory, 43 Rax, 56 Rax.
- From 53 onwards nonstop SD.
This buildorder is very tight, and you can absolutely not get supply blocked or you're screwed. I find it easier to execute to look at the specific orders for the constructing SCVs themselves:
- i: 10 SD, Rax, SD, Factory, Starport, SD, Armory, wait 20s, SD, SD, SD, ...
- ii: 22 SD, Bunker, Back to mining
- iii: 37 SD, Rax, Rax, Back to mining
- iv: 37 SD, Back to mining
Hope this helps;)
Yeah it definately helped, thanks!
By the way, the reason I don't like wall-offs because I have bad memories from protosses who go some sort of early void rays. I find that if I block my wall with bunkers, the voidrays cant really harass my ramp... But then again I don't know if 1 bunker without a wall is enough to hold some sort of committed pressure from the toss (4gate, 3gate robo et cetera).
|
On May 02 2011 02:06 DNB wrote:
By the way, the reason I don't like wall-offs because I have bad memories from protosses who go some sort of early void rays. I find that if I block my wall with bunkers, the voidrays cant really harass my ramp... But then again I don't know if 1 bunker without a wall is enough to hold some sort of committed pressure from the toss (4gate, 3gate robo et cetera).
I don't think so, while doing a 1-1-1 build I'd personnally recommend 2 bunkers to be safe against any strong pressure.
FF can prevent repairs, and I don't know if you'd have a Thor early enough to stomp them (and even then, moving a Thor = lack of DPS).
But I think that the key to hold off any sort of early pressure is repairs. Having a control group of SCVs with autorepair on can win you the game. Hence the 2 bunkers to make sure everything can be repaired!
Once the pressure is over, you can salvage the bunkers and use the money to expand/get an extra rax. In the end, I don't think you can really go overboard with the bunkers if it's not high masters play...
|
On May 02 2011 02:54 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 02:06 DNB wrote:
By the way, the reason I don't like wall-offs because I have bad memories from protosses who go some sort of early void rays. I find that if I block my wall with bunkers, the voidrays cant really harass my ramp... But then again I don't know if 1 bunker without a wall is enough to hold some sort of committed pressure from the toss (4gate, 3gate robo et cetera). I don't think so, while doing a 1-1-1 build I'd personnally recommend 2 bunkers to be safe against any strong pressure. FF can prevent repairs, and I don't know if you'd have a Thor early enough to stomp them (and even then, moving a Thor = lack of DPS). But I think that the key to hold off any sort of early pressure is repairs. Having a control group of SCVs with autorepair on can win you the game. Hence the 2 bunkers to make sure everything can be repaired! Once the pressure is over, you can salvage the bunkers and use the money to expand/get an extra rax. In the end, I don't think you can really go overboard with the bunkers if it's not high masters play...
thors crush ffs?
|
On May 02 2011 10:42 SxYSpAz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 02:54 Kukaracha wrote:On May 02 2011 02:06 DNB wrote:
By the way, the reason I don't like wall-offs because I have bad memories from protosses who go some sort of early void rays. I find that if I block my wall with bunkers, the voidrays cant really harass my ramp... But then again I don't know if 1 bunker without a wall is enough to hold some sort of committed pressure from the toss (4gate, 3gate robo et cetera). I don't think so, while doing a 1-1-1 build I'd personnally recommend 2 bunkers to be safe against any strong pressure. FF can prevent repairs, and I don't know if you'd have a Thor early enough to stomp them (and even then, moving a Thor = lack of DPS). But I think that the key to hold off any sort of early pressure is repairs. Having a control group of SCVs with autorepair on can win you the game. Hence the 2 bunkers to make sure everything can be repaired! Once the pressure is over, you can salvage the bunkers and use the money to expand/get an extra rax. In the end, I don't think you can really go overboard with the bunkers if it's not high masters play... thors crush ffs?
Yes all massive units do such as Ultras and soon to be massive Archons
|
Maybe I'm just a complete noob but how does 1 base collosus beat this? Sure you fry the marines, but how are you gonna deal with a handful of banshees and thors? Collo aren't that great against thors, and how will you deal with the banshees? You will barely have any gas for stalkers, and the PDD will just make things even harder for them...am
I missing something completely obvious?
|
On May 02 2011 11:15 Ryder. wrote:
Maybe I'm just a complete noob but how does 1 base collosus beat this? Sure you fry the marines, but how are you gonna deal with a handful of banshees and thors? Collo aren't that great against thors, and how will you deal with the banshees? You will barely have any gas for stalkers, and the PDD will just make things even harder for them...am
I missing something completely obvious?
holy shit is ur name really ryder? and no 1 base collo will get destroyed
|
On May 02 2011 02:54 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 02:06 DNB wrote:
By the way, the reason I don't like wall-offs because I have bad memories from protosses who go some sort of early void rays. I find that if I block my wall with bunkers, the voidrays cant really harass my ramp... But then again I don't know if 1 bunker without a wall is enough to hold some sort of committed pressure from the toss (4gate, 3gate robo et cetera). I don't think so, while doing a 1-1-1 build I'd personnally recommend 2 bunkers to be safe against any strong pressure. FF can prevent repairs, and I don't know if you'd have a Thor early enough to stomp them (and even then, moving a Thor = lack of DPS). But I think that the key to hold off any sort of early pressure is repairs. Having a control group of SCVs with autorepair on can win you the game. Hence the 2 bunkers to make sure everything can be repaired! Once the pressure is over, you can salvage the bunkers and use the money to expand/get an extra rax. In the end, I don't think you can really go overboard with the bunkers if it's not high masters play...
I have great success with this build in ladder. I think proxy void ray and early pressure would be the threat. I would highly recommend 2 bunkers instead of 1. There's a timing where you only have 1 rax producing marine and a raven. Thor/banshee isn't out. Need 2 bunkers to hold the pressure.
|
On May 02 2011 10:42 SxYSpAz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2011 02:54 Kukaracha wrote:On May 02 2011 02:06 DNB wrote:
By the way, the reason I don't like wall-offs because I have bad memories from protosses who go some sort of early void rays. I find that if I block my wall with bunkers, the voidrays cant really harass my ramp... But then again I don't know if 1 bunker without a wall is enough to hold some sort of committed pressure from the toss (4gate, 3gate robo et cetera). I don't think so, while doing a 1-1-1 build I'd personnally recommend 2 bunkers to be safe against any strong pressure. FF can prevent repairs, and I don't know if you'd have a Thor early enough to stomp them (and even then, moving a Thor = lack of DPS). But I think that the key to hold off any sort of early pressure is repairs. Having a control group of SCVs with autorepair on can win you the game. Hence the 2 bunkers to make sure everything can be repaired! Once the pressure is over, you can salvage the bunkers and use the money to expand/get an extra rax. In the end, I don't think you can really go overboard with the bunkers if it's not high masters play... thors crush ffs?
But thors come a few minutes later after the usual 4gate timing
|
If im expecting four gate pressure, or anythign fast or cheesy... of course it will knock some time off the build,, but I till always come out on top...
If i scout early star gate, ill throw down 2-3 barracks early. and get some marines.
4 gate, I always always pump out the thor as fast as I possibly can, it always holds it off.
High diamond player, been useing this strat for months, have ran into just bout every damn toss strat I can think of. I have only ever lost to cheese, (lack of scouting) in the early stages of learning the build. but since then I learned my mistakes and scout scout scout. So i know which way to do the build.
I have very high sucess with this as well against zerg, soemtimes i dont get the raven...I always fly out my flock of banshees out first, and ping off as many Bangs and lings as I can. Not as much success as protoss, about 80-85%.... Definatly gotta do a shit ton of macro to make this work. Its not like protoss where you can go flying in there with your death ball.... Gotta be smart with your scv placement, marines thors etc....
Also I never ever stop scv production, for 2 reasons, for some reason the push fails. I can get a expo up and saturate it faster, and I Always always always bring repair scvs with me,,, in both toss and zerg games. I dont need too, i think its a personal preference. Plus it helps your thors out a lot, and more meat shield.
|
Oh yeah forgot to add, I really really like going early banshee, and following it up with raven. going out with your first banshee, MAKE sure it stays alive at all costs, do a bit of scouting and some teasing in and out for a bit, just enough to make him either tech switch or waste mins on spores.. This 95% of the time makes him spend resources on all kinds of spores crawlers, and the best if they tech switch right into hydras (dumbest thing they could do i find....
|
What level is this effective on? I am a player that likes 2 rax early marauder pressure into expand vs toss. And from what I am seeing in high Gold level (playing some plats atm), protoss is all about 4 gating, and to hold this off I need to deny early pylons and have 2 bunkers with scvs ready b4 the attack occurs. (btw, this 2 rax expand marauder heavy punishes 4gates so well LOL)
Somehow i feel this build cannot hold 4gate, and like 90 percent of protoss at this level does 4gate....ppl just want more points, they dont care about playing a fun game. (it seems that way for all races, zerg 1 base banes, terran 3 rax)
|
I used this strat, from gold,,, all the way to 3600 diamond last season, and still useing it now,
does awesome with a 4 gate push, if u read the posts, it will tell u how to deal with it. and it deals with it very well....
most people just get 2 bunks, to hold it off...
some people will right into getting their 3 rax earlier
me myself, I try to get my thor out as fast as possible, with a few scvs out front for repair. Usually holds it off well. U clearly need to be scouting tho and have everything at your wall, scvs ready to rock and repair.
This strat will own gold league, if done properly. U shouldnt lose a single game if you do it right, and scout.
|
I watched the first game and its pretty obvious if he would of had the immortals focus down the thors in the first battle he would have crushed you... he had like 6 immortals that shot at marines the entire battle while the 4 thors did massive damage to stalkers...just bad micro on his part.is the reason you won that game.
|
a win is a win..... he got outplayed.
|
i might have to give this a try in the near future, but for now it seems 2 rax expand really punishes 4gate, and this thor all-in is off one base though.....u cant transition out very well, and zealots immortal combo will beat this i believe.
i guess i am not brave enough with all-ins (unless i lost many scvs already)
|
and oh yea i believe a good 4gate with couple sentries own 1/1/1 build even with 2 bunkers and scvs ready. They just FF your rax and you are in trouble.
Edit: 4 gate comes fast though, i believe around 5 min in game time, and they just keep reinforcing
|
BWAHAHah how mant times in this post has this exact same counter been posted like 1000132123123 times? do it i dare,,,, see what happens LAWL
|
Again this build got decimated by a blind FE with chargelots and HTs.
I held off his cannon rush first and then proceeded to macro up normally. At the attack I didn't assume storms so I forgot to split my units. But even with splitting, would I still have lost that?
Replay uploading doesn't work at the moment on sc2replayed.com, but if anyone has ever gone against this build and won, how did you do it?
|
This DNB fellow is a regular practice partner of mine and also a rat bastard who keeps kicking my ass with this build.
Before finding this thread, I had already worked out that a four-gate or proxy void rush would take it out, but I'm trying to work out a way to survive it using my standard PvT BO; gate, robo, gate, expand. This gets my obs into his base around the 7:00 mark, at which point it's pretty obvious what's going on (armory building, raven out, factory and starport both with tech labs but neither upgrading), and I have about four minutes to greet his army as it moves out, or 4:45 to meet it at my front door.
I've tried teching to blink and massing stalkers to snipe marines and banshees as the army crosses the map. I felt like this could actually work given sufficient micro, especially if you can force the PDDs out.
I've tried teching to HTs and getting four out to feedback the raven and banshees, this also seemed like it had potential.
I'm considering adding a starport at 7:00 and just pumping voids, but I'm concerned about the marine numbers.
I think this thread has arrived a consensus about which builds straight up counter this push, but since I don't want to blind counter this very specific push every game, I'm curious what better players would consider a good response to seeing this coming at the 7:00 mark with and expo, three warp gates and a robo out.
|
On May 12 2011 03:42 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
This DNB fellow is a regular practice partner of mine and also a rat bastard who keeps kicking my ass with this build.
Before finding this thread, I had already worked out that a four-gate or proxy void rush would take it out, but I'm trying to work out a way to survive it using my standard PvT BO; gate, robo, gate, expand. This gets my obs into his base around the 7:00 mark, at which point it's pretty obvious what's going on (armory building, raven out, factory and starport both with tech labs but neither upgrading), and I have about four minutes to greet his army as it moves out, or 4:45 to meet it at my front door.
I've tried teching to blink and massing stalkers to snipe marines and banshees as the army crosses the map. I felt like this could actually work given sufficient micro, especially if you can force the PDDs out.
I've tried teching to HTs and getting four out to feedback the raven and banshees, this also seemed like it had potential.
I'm considering adding a starport at 7:00 and just pumping voids, but I'm concerned about the marine numbers.
I think this thread has arrived a consensus about which builds straight up counter this push, but since I don't want to blind counter this very specific push every game, I'm curious what better players would consider a good response to seeing this coming at the 7:00 mark with and expo, three warp gates and a robo out.
I wanted to bump this post, I understand that there are some hard counters to this build, such as a blind FE into charglot HT, but blind FE's are unstable. I would really like to find out how to hold off this push starting with a 1 gate robo and seeing the armory around the 7 minute mark.
Thanks
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
