[D] TvP Thor/Banshee/Raven/Marine push

OlorinPA

28 Posts

March 03 2011 05:56 GMT

So I've been messing with a new strat (new for me...maybe it is old hat for the community) and was wondering if any protoss pros had some advice on dealing with this. I main protoss, but I like to play a lot of Terran as well (PvT and TvP are my favorite matchups). I usually go for the macro game but lately I've been messing around with some one base timing pushes, b/c one base play seems so strong in SC2 compared to how hard it is to hold an expo. Anyway, thors and banshees can be difficult for protoss to deal with so I decided why don't I see how many thors and banshees I can get by the 10:00 minute mark while massing marines and then push. Anyway, I open 1/1/1. Add an armory after I start my first banshee. And start a raven after the first banshee finishes. Keep pumping banshees and Thors as gas allows while adding barracks and marines as minerals allow. You end up with three rax/a factory/a starport with an army of 30+ marines, 4 banshees, 3 thors and a raven when you leave your base at the 11:00 minute mark. Raven has enough energy for 2 PDDs by the time you reach the enemy base. I have yet to lose a TvP with this push (15-0) since I starting using a couple days ago. Here are some replays:

All diamond level and a couple masters level opponents. Anyway, my point is that I main protoss and I have no idea how a protoss should hold this push. I was wondering if any better protoss players than I had any ideas?

Whitewing

United States7483 Posts

March 03 2011 05:59 GMT

The push is actually stronger, I find, with tanks instead of thors. You can harass with the banshees, slow push the tanks, and if the stalkers go after your banshees, you can pull forces into your siege tank range.

L3g3nd_

New Zealand10461 Posts

March 03 2011 06:08 GMT

seems very gas heavy, how does it compare to just marine banshee or marine thor?

i assume marine thor or marine banshee would be a lot earlier, and your gas would be spent more efficiently

Jumbled

1543 Posts

March 03 2011 06:08 GMT

On March 03 2011 14:59 Whitewing wrote:
The push is actually stronger, I find, with tanks instead of thors. You can harass with the banshees, slow push the tanks, and if the stalkers go after your banshees, you can pull forces into your siege tank range.

The OP's push does sound a little scarier than the conventional marine/tank/banshee/raven all-in, mainly because the thors also provide some extra AA and shut down force fields. It sounds like it comes out quite late for a 1-base attack, however, and that could be a big weakness. Unfortunately I haven't been able to watch any of the replays yet as GameReplays seems to be having a fit.

OlorinPA

28 Posts

March 03 2011 06:19 GMT

On March 03 2011 15:08 L3g3nd_ wrote:
seems very gas heavy, how does it compare to just marine banshee or marine thor?

i assume marine thor or marine banshee would be a lot earlier, and your gas would be spent more efficiently

That's a good question. You open standard 1/1/1. You start the armory as soon as the first banshee is started. And a thor as soon as the armory is finished. You pretty much have enough gas to make banshees and thors continuously up until the push (minus a couple of seconds of downtime on both the factory and starport). You are more limited on thor build time than gas. So while you could skip the banshees and make the armory earlier, you will only get one extra thor out and no banshees.

FF can't help the protoss b/c if he does you just move one thor forward to break it down. And banshees fly over the FF anyway. And anyway if you push earlier with just marine thor, you have waaaay fewer marines. The mass of marines is actually quite important b/c gateway heavy armies have difficulty killing off the marines. The whole build is designed around reaching a critical mass that the protoss will have a very difficult time dealing with.

OlorinPA

28 Posts

March 03 2011 06:20 GMT

Oh and as an extra note, I have yet to pull SCV's ever with this push. And I usually roll the protoss. If I actually came across someone who managed to stop it then I would just bring SCVs for repair and see if they can stop it then.

HellsHeaven

South Africa12 Posts

March 03 2011 06:20 GMT

Ive used a similar push before and the one game I lost was to a really fast HT storm tech since you cant put on to much pressure before moving out.

Also since you dont have stim, void rays should really be a pain in the for you to deal with, esp since he should have 4+.

I'm not sure since you dont say, but do your thors have strike cannons?

Blyadischa

419 Posts

March 03 2011 06:23 GMT

This seems strong, but I think a more reliable route is to go up to 3 rax and expand or expand and go up to 3 rax and add a starport, depending on what the opponent is doing, then have a larger but slightly later push. (it's what I do, and I've little trouble beating Protosses @ 2900 master)

The Marine/Thor/Banshee composition is definitely the strongest mid game composition to get. It is incredibly difficult to stop. In Synystyr's Anti-Colossus thread he has this same composition but goes 2 naked rax expand w/ 3 bunkers to have a giant push @~15 minutes.

OlorinPA

28 Posts

March 03 2011 06:24 GMT

On March 03 2011 15:20 HellsHeaven wrote:
Ive used a similar push before and the one game I lost was to a really fast HT storm tech since you cant put on to much pressure before moving out.

Also since you dont have stim, void rays should really be a pain in the for you to deal with, esp since he should have 4+.

I'm not sure since you dont say, but do your thors have strike cannons?

No, all gas goes to factory/starport/armory/banshees/raven/thors. I don't know how storm would fare against this. Almost no protoss has storm researched by the 11:00 mark. I've beaten several players who did rush HT's, but they didn't have storm finished. As far as voidrays...I push with 30+ marines, I don't think the lack of stim will matter. I have beaten a couple guys who made VRs, but none of them were massing them. The closest I've come to losing was to a guy who made stalkers/immortal/phoenix/VR.

spbelky

United States623 Posts

March 03 2011 06:28 GMT

#10

theres no way his thors have strike cannons, and because he has banshees, there is no need. strike cannons are good against immortals, but if he had immortals then his stalker count is going to be low, and a handful banshees + 2 PDDs > stalkers.

Phantom09

United States73 Posts

March 03 2011 06:28 GMT

#11

w00t first TL post!! Although I am a longtime lurker

Hey Olorin,

I'M a high diamond Terran (rank #2 at the moment). I Actually tend to use a similar strategy, although I like doing my thor/banshee/Marine Push off of 2 base.

I have to say, that's a pretty scary push you have going there.

First off, I have to say, if you scout this as protoss, which you should be able to do, there are several things you can do.

1st option : early pressure. Early pressure against this sort of teching really can put the terran on his back foot. Since the terran is going 1/1/1, he isn't going to have a whole lot of units.
- 4 gates have a pretty decent chance of busting this, especially if the terran doesn't have a bunker or two at the front.
- A quick robo going into a 2 or 3gate + immortal push also does very well, as the marine count will be low off of 1 rax in the beginning, and the immortal can chew through the bunkers (and thors, if they are out early enough for the push.... which is unlikely if you go 1/1/1).
-Another option is 2 or 3 gate stargate, with 2 void rays + gateway units to do an early push. If the terran doesn't wall off while teching like this, your zealots can get in and do loads of damage, focusing down the marines while void rays mop everything else up. If he has walled, your voids can charge on his wall and absolutely own.

To survive this, a Terran has to see the pressure coming, build bunkers, and pull SCVs off the line. All this slows down and/or weakens the 11 min push, if it doesn't outright win you the game.

2nd option: econ.

-If you see a terran teching like this, he is going to be unable to put any serious early pressure on you. You can probably safely 1 or 2 gate expand, and have your natural up by the 5 or 6 minute mark easy. Having a significant econ lead for that long (~5 min) should allow you to have enough forces to survive the push. As for composition - I would suggest either chargelots/stalkers/immortals or chargelot/stalker/colossi. If you get the immortals, focus down the thors then clean up the marines/banshees with the rest of your army. If you get the colossi, focus down the marines first. Because of the raven/pdd, you could cut some stalkers and add in some void rays, which do very well against thor/banshee, but you'd have to micro them properly against the marines. Whatever composition you choose, your econ lead + defenders advantage should allow you to defend successfully.

Things NOT to do: Go pure gateway. Thors/marine/banshees have one thing in common - high dps. They will walk through much larger gateway armies. The key to this composition is the synergy between the units. Marines do very well against all air, and provide good ground dps - and are especially good at taking out immortals, which could counter thors. Thors do massive ground dps and have a large amount of health, helping the marines to survive, especially against things such as colossi. Banshees rounds it all out, having a very high anti-ground dps, doing well against colossi and immortal - and are protected in the air by the marines, and even the thors, who do very well against phoenixes. What I've found counters this build best is some composition that focuses down ONE of these units very well, then is able to mop up the other two afterwards. Usually, the best unit (imo) to focus down is the thor. If you kill the thors, zealots/stalkers can clean up the marines/banshees without too much trouble, especially if you are reinforcing throughout the battle.

There are some other things the terran can do when he is teching like this, like cloaked banshee harass, but that was not the point of this thread, and therefore I will not address those.

These aren't easy solutions - that 11 minute push looks pretty devastating. However, if you exploit its weaknesses, you should be able to handle it.

TL;DR
Either early pressure or FE macro builds are the best against tech based, 1base allins.

OlorinPA

28 Posts

March 03 2011 06:41 GMT

#12

Hey, phantom. You are absolutely right that this build has the same difficulty holding off early aggression by the protoss (4 gate, etc) as a 1/1/1 build does. However, I disagree that the economic build is necessarily the way to go. B/c the protoss' I tend to crush easiest are the ones who FE. I generally scan a couple minutes before the push and if I see an expo I know he is going to die. You should check out the replays to see what I mean.

My whole point to this is that 1 base play seems so strong compared to how hard it is to hold off with economic builds. Like, I'm sure there is a way to beat this build as protoss (4 gate certainly has a chance, but it preempts the push), but to do it economically? I'm not sure...

Jumbled

1543 Posts

March 03 2011 07:15 GMT

#13

Do you have a replay among those you posted you would especially recommend? Particularly one in which your opponent played well. I grabbed replay no. 3 and watched it, and while your push was scary, the protoss player really didn't do very well.

OlorinPA

28 Posts

March 03 2011 07:25 GMT

#14

The first replay would be good then, I think. The protoss stays on 1 base nearly as long as I do and he masses immortal/stalker (I had beaten him just before). I would say it is the 'typical' thing I think a protoss player would do if he knew what I was doing beforehand.

I would suggest the last one as well. Typical FE and he scouts exactly what I was going for. Goes with what I think most protoss think the "counter" would be at that stage in the game. I think he was Masters level as well.

Jumbled

1543 Posts

March 03 2011 07:34 GMT

#15

Had a look at the last replay. Much, much better player this time. I suspect he initially read it as a tank/raven/banshee push rather than thors, as he didn't see the armory and I doubt he would have built as many phoenixes. Still, that can happen and I don't see him as having done too much wrong. Maybe a couple of small things such as harassing with his phoenixes once he had a few, and getting some static defence against a terran who was obviously one-basing hard.

Phantom09

United States73 Posts

March 03 2011 14:26 GMT

#16

On March 03 2011 15:41 OlorinPA wrote:
Hey, phantom. You are absolutely right that this build has the same difficulty holding off early aggression by the protoss (4 gate, etc) as a 1/1/1 build does. However, I disagree that the economic build is necessarily the way to go. B/c the protoss' I tend to crush easiest are the ones who FE. I generally scan a couple minutes before the push and if I see an expo I know he is going to die. You should check out the replays to see what I mean.

My whole point to this is that 1 base play seems so strong compared to how hard it is to hold off with economic builds. Like, I'm sure there is a way to beat this build as protoss (4 gate certainly has a chance, but it preempts the push), but to do it economically? I'm not sure...

Olorin,

You have a good point. I agree that this sort of push is harder to hold off if you expo. But if you expand early enough, it should put you in a better position overall if you manage to hold this push off. It's just harder to macro correctly and get the correct composition then it is to 4gate.

I just watched your last game against scythe, who did a 3 gate expand. I honestly think he could have held it, had he not made these mistakes.

1) His macro slipped. He had enough money for an extra 2 immortals or so, which would have really helped.

2) He built phoenixes. Phoenixes are pretty good at killing banshees.... but void rays are better, especially since void rays do well against thors AND void rays aren't affected by the PDD. If he had had void rays instead of phoenixes, he would have done better.

3) Target fired your thors. I noticed that a lot of the time, he 1a'ed and therefore his immortal was firing on your marines. Big waste of DPS.

4) Not enough immortals. This relates to #1. If he had at 2 or 3 more immortals, and target fired
your thors.... he would have done so much better.

5) He probably could have safely gone for a 2gate expo against your build. Haven't tested this or anything, but that's just what I feel from watching the replay.

TL;DR
It is possible to hold off your push with an economic build - it is just harder, as it requires good micro, macro, and army composition. But then again, isn't good micro, macro, and army composition what any good player wants?

matrius

100 Posts

March 03 2011 22:28 GMT

#17

Thanks for this, its working well for me!

The only time I lost is when I messed up my micro and a thor or two attacked a building instead of their army

As well, he had colossi which I find tougher. You have to keep your marines behind the thors or they get toasted.

I think colossi, zealots, void ray/phoenix might give this trouble, but who does that? Everyone seems to go for stalkers anyway. PDD is good for them

Thanks again!

PS. Held off 4 gateway push too - I had built 2 bunkers because I notice there are a few extra minerals and he attacked with the pylon close by to warp in, but was able to hold the front line, and then my thor popped. Was close though, I was a bit slow with my scvs...I'm wondering if the order was changed to get Thor building first, then SP, raven, banshee just to give you a bit more army earlier - Thors much better at helping hold off the rush than a banshee...

BONE

United States176 Posts

March 04 2011 14:55 GMT

#18

I've been struggling to beat protoss lately, Thanks for the replays, hopefully I can pull off this strat as good as you!

kusu

Sweden440 Posts

March 04 2011 15:04 GMT

#19

Synystyr has already made a similar guide. starts out with a couple thors then mass banshee. Of course marines to keep the minerlas low ^^.
If he goes phoenix you transition into BCs.

Really strong build !

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172190

Netherlands12045 Posts

March 04 2011 15:06 GMT

#20

sick build which make me have to learn how to magik box my phoenix, after that -> life is good

Dommk

Australia4865 Posts

March 04 2011 15:12 GMT

#21

I've been facing this strat on ladder recently, how can Terran get so much off one base

? Even when I 1gate FE and shut down banshee harass, and by the end of the game I had 8k+ more resources than him ,this push is really hard to hold off

Do you have any replays where you lose doing this?

ROOTdrewbie

Canada1392 Posts

March 04 2011 15:13 GMT

#22

sounds cool i will try it ~_~

Krikan

Norway520 Posts

March 04 2011 15:27 GMT

#23

Hmm, considering how late this push is, and assuming your observer scout both thors and banshees I would imagine cannons would be the right response, together with either immortals or colossus, or the phoenix response could work too I guess. From what experience I have from doing similar one base pushes, cannons are amazingly annoying to deal with. 3 or 4 cannons can quickly grab a good 10 marines or more during a fight (or just do some general nice damage to the thors or w/e). This together with some decent forcefields and guardian shields together with immortal/colossi or phoenix should have a decent chance at holding.

This is mostly theory crafting I guess as I'm mostly on the Terran side of things, but in theory atleast it doesn't sound too bad. Like someone said earlier: the toss had mined 8k+ more resources, you should be willing to spend 500 ish on that for cannons (the forge can just upgrade +1 anyways which is always good) to give yourself a better fighting chance.

ROOTdrewbie

Canada1392 Posts

March 04 2011 15:32 GMT

#24

ok i have a couple questions about this strat.

why do you get a banshee out before a raven? i think that it would good vs dts and also if a protoss gets an observer in your base fast then they could scout the armory. I think that you had enough gas in the games that you could have gotten the raven first, also you had like 190 energy at the timing of your push so you couldnt quite throw down 2 pdds

do you cut scvs on purpose ? you seem to stop at about 6 scvs on gas + 16 scvs on minerals for minimum saturation.

it seems super allin since you have like half your opponent's scvs when you are pushing, so why dont you pull like 10~ scvs to autorepair during the fight? I don't see how you could win with a follow up push of 2 banshee 2 thor + marines if this fails since your opponent will have such a higher economy

also i liked how you don't scout at all or micro in the fights really and still win easy LOL ;D nice strat

im not sure but i think that a 1 base build by the protoss could stop it, if they just camped their ramp thors/marines do pretty badly going up a ramp because they are slow and dont have the greatest range. but they would only do this if they know what you are doing and just make like 36 probes but camp out on their ramp

Dommk

Australia4865 Posts

March 04 2011 16:06 GMT

#25

This is mostly theory crafting I guess as I'm mostly on the Terran side of things, but in theory atleast it doesn't sound too bad. Like someone said earlier: the toss had mined 8k+ more resources, you should be willing to spend 500 ish on that for cannons (the forge can just upgrade +1 anyways which is always good) to give yourself a better fighting chance.

Banshees weren't my problem, I managed to shoo them away with only losing 7~ Probes, which I think is an OK loss considering I 1gate FE'd.

I didn't have Phoenix though, when I saw the Thors they were the last thing I wanted to make, I'm not sure what I did wrong, my entire army just vanishes, I had charge lot/ Voidray/ Immortal/Stalker/Sentry

I'm not sure what the proper response is..., maybe I teched too much? But I had a 8k lead..., anyone have ANY replays of them beating this? or of them losing(as the Terran ofc)?

im not sure but i think that a 1 base build by the protoss could stop it, if they just camped their ramp thors/marines do pretty badly going up a ramp because they are slow and dont have the greatest range. but they would only do this if they know what you are doing and just make like 36 probes but camp out on their ramp

But what happens if you just camp the ramp at that point and expand? How am I going to bust down that ramp with Thor/Banshee/Raven situated perfectly waiting for you to run your army into the meat grinder, at that point wouldn't just a siege tank switch make it impossible for Protoss to leave?

Fuck I hate Terran 1 base so much

matrius

100 Posts

March 04 2011 16:09 GMT

#26

Oh, btw, the first banshee can be used to harass - I killed 6 probes before he could get the probes away and bring over his stalkers! You probably want to put an scv scout somewhere to make sure you don't harass at the same time as you are being attacked, since you will have a smaller army at that point.

ROOTdrewbie

Canada1392 Posts

March 04 2011 16:13 GMT

#27

yea the OP didn't harass or scout at all lol, I think it would be best to make the raven before the banshee and deny any scouting and just camp out in your base.

Dommk if the terran does that then he will have 25 scvs vs 36ish for P and even though I guess he could switch to tanks it would be really slow though, the protoss could have like 2-3 colossus out when the push comes and just micro them from up his ramp

matrius

100 Posts

March 04 2011 16:21 GMT

#28

On March 05 2011 01:06 Dommk wrote:

Show nested quote +

I think if you have that much extra resources, you just cannon up - 5 cannons at each base should do it, and then you will out macro him. Can you post your replay?

As well, if you have an observer and you see marine/thor/banshee, just make chargelots/colossi/void ray which should counter everything (theorycraft here). Stalkers kinda sux vs this. Easiest way to test the unit comps is to use the unit tester vs similar valued army.
http://www.sc2mapster.com/maps/unit-tester/

Show nested quote +

This is a bad idea (staying up your ramp), the terran will bunker up and you will be totally contained, and if you move out, you will funnel into a deathball. A forward pylon (with a cannon if you want some extra defense) will be better.

matrius

100 Posts

March 04 2011 16:22 GMT

#29

PS. I always make 36 scvs and then send some along when I push with this strat

Synystyr

United States1446 Posts

March 04 2011 16:46 GMT

#30

I play this style very heavily in TvP and have yielded amazing results...I honestly believe that the only way to play against Protoss lategame is with air. As someone posted earlier, I have a thread detailing a more macro focused version of this build.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172190

I like fast expanding first and then macroing. It's not so all in, and your and push only comes a little later, but it's so much more powerful AND you can take a third and transition easily out of it into BCs.

What I think you could do differently with this style is:

Thor + Raven before Banshee.
Continue constant SCV production.

Thor + Raven first will give you a lot more power to stop 1 base pushes and to deny scouting. If done perfectly, your opponent will make Immortals in response to your Thor, which is exactly what you want. Also, you can bank energy on your raven for 2 PDDs later when you engage.

Don't cut SCVs. You need something to fall back on in case your push gets stomped. You'll want to expand as you attack and with constant SCV production, you'll at least be able to saturate your nat.

For those wondering how to stop it..

Since this is a 1 base push, your best bet is to try and get as many Phoenix + Zealots out as fast as you can, as this is the ideal composition to stop it. Stalkers just don't trade very well at all with this army. Your AA must be Phoenix. Cannons will also be a huge help. YOU WANT TO DEFEND. Defenders advantage is what you really need here.

Thor/Banshee/Raven/Marine is such a powerful mid game composition...you need to scout perfectly and get the right balance of units out to stop it, otherwise you lose in an extremely 1 sided fashion...GL

Dommk

Australia4865 Posts

March 04 2011 17:06 GMT

#31

On March 05 2011 01:13 drewbie.root wrote:
yea the OP didn't harass or scout at all lol, I think it would be best to make the raven before the banshee and deny any scouting and just camp out in your base.

Dommk if the terran does that then he will have 25 scvs vs 36ish for P and even though I guess he could switch to tanks it would be really slow though, the protoss could have like 2-3 colossus out when the push comes and just micro them from up his ramp

That isn't going to work.

I just pulled up a game and tried to see how many Colossus I could get by 11mins with 14 and 18gas (skipping first zealot), I built 3 Observers, which I think is reasonable due to observer snipes. I built nothing other than 2gate, robo, support bay and Colossus (w/ Thermal lance). No "defense" of stalkers for early Banshee harass.

By 11mins, I have 451 gas (http://i.imgur.com/Unxjw.jpg that is me trying to hit 38 workers, 2 for scouting/building, as fast as I can, so the minerals won't be that high in a real game), what exactly am I supposed to get with 451 gas to stop Banshees? Even if I skipped a Colossus and an observer, that means I have 726 Gas. If we just assume I need 5 Stalkers for early Banshee defense, that means I only have 476 gas to counter left the rest of the push, Gas is a considerably limiting factor here, I don't see how 2/3 Colossus could stop this push at all...

Dommk

Australia4865 Posts

March 04 2011 17:09 GMT

#32

On March 05 2011 01:46 Synystyr wrote:
I play this style very heavily in TvP and have yielded amazing results...I honestly believe that the only way to play against Protoss lategame is with air. As someone posted earlier, I have a thread detailing a more macro focused version of this build.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172190

I like fast expanding first and then macroing. It's not so all in, and your and push only comes a little later, but it's so much more powerful AND you can take a third and transition easily out of it into BCs.

What I think you could do differently with this style is:

Thor + Raven before Banshee.
Continue constant SCV production.

Thor + Raven first will give you a lot more power to stop 1 base pushes and to deny scouting. If done perfectly, your opponent will make Immortals in response to your Thor, which is exactly what you want. Also, you can bank energy on your raven for 2 PDDs later when you engage.

Don't cut SCVs. You need something to fall back on in case your push gets stomped. You'll want to expand as you attack and with constant SCV production, you'll at least be able to saturate your nat.

For those wondering how to stop it..

Since this is a 1 base push, your best bet is to try and get as many Phoenix + Zealots out as fast as you can, as this is the ideal composition to stop it. Stalkers just don't trade very well at all with this army. Your AA must be Phoenix. Cannons will also be a huge help. YOU WANT TO DEFEND. Defenders advantage is what you really need here.

Thor/Banshee/Raven/Marine is such a powerful mid game composition...you need to scout perfectly and get the right balance of units out to stop it, otherwise you lose in an extremely 1 sided fashion...GL

Do you have any replays of you losing whilst doing this (not to early stuff like 4gate)?

BlinkGosu

United States46 Posts

March 04 2011 17:16 GMT

#33

Hey guys 3.3k masters toss here, my build for Terran is a 2gate robo expand with contain, after you have safely expanded you make a mothership while continuing to produce immortals and gateway units. When your mothership has 100 energy you can push with your army on maps where the natural and main are close, vortexing half his army or whole army and using forcefueld+ gaurdian shield. If on shattered temple or other similar map you can push with your army then back up lure him out and recall into his base and snipe productionfacilities and you'll be set to win.

OlorinPA

28 Posts

March 04 2011 19:20 GMT

#34

On March 05 2011 00:32 drewbie.root wrote:
ok i have a couple questions about this strat.

why do you get a banshee out before a raven? i think that it would good vs dts and also if a protoss gets an observer in your base fast then they could scout the armory. I think that you had enough gas in the games that you could have gotten the raven first, also you had like 190 energy at the timing of your push so you couldnt quite throw down 2 pdds

do you cut scvs on purpose ? you seem to stop at about 6 scvs on gas + 16 scvs on minerals for minimum saturation.

it seems super allin since you have like half your opponent's scvs when you are pushing, so why dont you pull like 10~ scvs to autorepair during the fight? I don't see how you could win with a follow up push of 2 banshee 2 thor + marines if this fails since your opponent will have such a higher economy

also i liked how you don't scout at all or micro in the fights really and still win easy LOL ;D nice strat

im not sure but i think that a 1 base build by the protoss could stop it, if they just camped their ramp thors/marines do pretty badly going up a ramp because they are slow and dont have the greatest range. but they would only do this if they know what you are doing and just make like 36 probes but camp out on their ramp

Wow a response from Drewbie. Anyway, I get the banshee first b/c I initially don't have the gas saved up for a raven (since I start the armory shortly after starting the banshee). Also, I think having the banshee first will be better for holding off any early aggression than getting a raven first. And a DT rush would have to be pretty fast to beat the raven out (I think). I'm and sure some tweaks like this could potentially improve it, certainly.

And it is incredibly all in. Which is not my play style at all. This has just been a giant experiment for me. I would pull the SCVs, except I have not run into a need to yet. I have not lost with the push (I've have lost to a couple 4 gates though, which obviously hit before the push). Anyway...I've been experimenting with this b/c SC2 seems so much harder to play economically than in BW. That is 1 base play in SC2 is sooo strong if you play it right. I started getting frustrated that I would so often lose to some random 10:00 push that seems completely unbeatable if I FE. So I decided to try a similar tactic for myself and this is the result.

Yeah...again not my usual style of play. My reasoning for lack of scouting is...I simply don't care what the protoss is doing. I'm going to try and smash right in regardless. Obviously, trying to scout for a 4 gate so that you could change it up to better respond isn't a bad idea...but I usually just put a bunker at the front and call it good, lol. I originally WOULD harass with the first banshee, but I was often losing it. And I sort of came to the realization that maybe I don't even need to harass for this to be effective so I stopped doing it and just saved the banshee for the push...the more the better.

OlorinPA

28 Posts

March 04 2011 19:26 GMT

#35

Double post.

Barca

United States418 Posts

March 04 2011 20:54 GMT

#36

Hmmm, seems pretty powerful.

@OP: Do you think there is anyway to stop this off a 1 gate FE? Since that build comes out before the Protoss can scout your build? By 11:00 the expo should have paid for itself, I believe.

OlorinPA

28 Posts

March 04 2011 21:00 GMT

#37

On March 05 2011 05:54 Barca wrote:
Hmmm, seems pretty powerful.

@OP: Do you think there is anyway to stop this off a 1 gate FE? Since that build comes out before the Protoss can scout your build? By 11:00 the expo should have paid for itself, I believe.

All, I know is that I have the easiest time beating a "typical" FE. That is FE, then mass gateway units and maybe immortals before transitioning into colossus. If you FE'ed and then rush straight to colossi as fast as possible and if you could have 2 colossi out in time...then yes I think that would hold it. But that is hardly a "typical" FE.

kwan_1984

Canada58 Posts

March 07 2011 00:50 GMT

#38

man im loving this strat,,, it works really really well against zerg too. I have been leaving the Raven out against zerg, is that a good or bad idea? i leve it out so i can get an extra banshee for the push.
I am in platinum, so at 11 minutes, typically all i see is maybe 4 mutas, mostly lings, blings or roaches.

Would the raven even be that much more of a help in a zerg match or would it be smarter to get the extra banshee?

Blamajama

156 Posts

March 07 2011 01:56 GMT

#39

So a 4 gate proxy pylon rarely ever breaks this defense? What about maps where they are able to warp inside your base should you not spot the pylon like DQ? What about blink stalkers flooding your base while immortals bust the wall?

kwan_1984

Canada58 Posts

March 07 2011 08:11 GMT

#40

how would u tweak this to go against a zerg? or how viable would this strat be against terran? i have actually had more success with this against zerg , since i started trying it today.

I have lost twice, but that is to my screw up in macro. but its a very very solid build especially if the zerg or toss fast expands i find.

Klystron

United States99 Posts

March 07 2011 11:39 GMT

#41

I've been doing something similar that has just kind of evolved from my cloaked banshee play. Here are two replays from the recent MIT closed tournament of me doing Thor/banshee/raven/marine with a large degree of success.

In both of these games my opponent loses 2-3 times the amount of resources in army and units that I do, which just goes to show you how cost efficient this combination can be.

By no means did I execute this well at all, and my opponents were nothing spectacular. I am only a 1k plat player, but I don't really ladder a lot. One of the opponents was a 2k diamond player, and the other a silver player. Feel free to comment on how bad my macro/micro/decision making was in these games. All criticism helps me improve.

The one big thing is that it can be very hard to defend. I held on just by the skin of my teeth in both games, mostly thanks to mass repair on bunkers and a thor. Normally I get the raven first with the thor to deny observers, and to play mind games. The banshees follow soon after.

antz0r

Australia168 Posts

March 09 2011 23:29 GMT

#42

Only ran the strat once but it was super easy to pull off against an unsuspecting toss.

kwan_1984

Canada58 Posts

March 10 2011 07:57 GMT

#43

yeah,,, im finding this strat actually work well and even better against zerg,,, especially a zerg that FE.... its basically GG when they do that,,,, well at least for me at platinum leval.... Ive only lost when I was not paying attention,,, roach rush and 4 gate,,,, not scouting the proxy pylons , or bunkering up etc. just stupid noob mistakes,,, other than that,,, im having a killer success rate with this, if I push out at 11 mins,,, its pretty much GG,,,

for zerg i skip out on the Raven,,, and produce an extra banshee.... im really loving this build a lot! very powerfull.... again its sorta all-in ish.... one base,,, not really my style,,,, but its nice to change things up...

Sagolikt

Sweden6 Posts

March 10 2011 16:51 GMT

#44

It has worked great for me and I have met very different openings from toss. My micro slips greatly but that doesnt really matter unless I would go up against a master player.

There are some key factors to this tactic. The raven will most likely make the toss blind to what the terran is building, unless he sacrifises zealots or probes.

It's possible there is a good unit combination for a toss player to hold their defenses against this but I have yet to seen it. If the toss goes for 2-3 colossos he will have so few stalkers that the PDDs will defend the banshees when they are hunting down the colossos. And the few stalkers will be walked over by the thors and marines so quickly.

It's also common to have centrys early for toss and they are basically just a complete waste of resources against this composition of units. Some toss players have scouted me when i only have marines and 1 banshee and centry is a good unit to produce when he only knows about that.

I would assume that some sort of stalker/void-ray build is the best way to go for a toss. Maybe throw in some zealots to take cheap damage as well.

As others have said, this is not a one base-all-in. I sometimes throw a CC down at my natural when I move out. It will delay the reinforcements a bit, but you have something to fall back on if something goes wrong.

But I'm only a Platinum player atm, so what do I know?

kwan_1984

Canada58 Posts

March 10 2011 19:07 GMT

#45

U dont have to,,, but I always bring 10 or so SCVs with me for the ride...... i have yet to lose a single thor this way. and u still have enough mins and gas witht he mules and left over scvs to continue marine and thor production.

Abandon

United States8 Posts

March 10 2011 20:24 GMT

#46

@Whoever said this works even better against zerg.

I haven't tried this yet, but I need a decent TvZ build. How does this fare against baneling play?

Twistacles

Canada1327 Posts

March 10 2011 20:38 GMT

#47

I just tried this and got completely owned. Void/Collosus just kills this

matrius

100 Posts

March 10 2011 21:27 GMT

#48

ya, if you see void/colosus, you should switch it up a bit. I would recommend doing some kind of harass (w/hellions - you can use hellions instead of marines), and use 1 scan to try and get a sense of what they are up to. If they are going VR/Colossus, its better to go vikings, which are hard/soft counters for those two units. The fact that they can attack the vrs make a huge difference, and the extra range vs colossi helps too. If they are doing VR/Colossi, then they won't have as many stalkers.

As well, when done killing the VR/Colossi, just put your vikings on the ground. 1 Viking == 1 Stalker.

Tynan

Canada111 Posts

March 10 2011 21:49 GMT

#49

Seems Protoss could get a lot of mileage out of abusing mobility vs this build instead of simply smashing into it head on at their base. The same way Z deals with tank marine rolling across the map. Hit it before it arrives. Consider:

-Thors are slow as hell.
-PDD doesn't move.
-No Stim means Collossi and Stalkers have good hit and run potential vs Marines.

If you can see them moving out, then engage them with Stalkers enough to make them drop a PDD or two in the middle of the map, you can then just run away.

Even further, with some mass Blink stalkers you might be able to just send half the army to blink into the base and smash stuff while the other half plays scrappy and tries to delay the Thor push. Get a head start on the base trade.

LaserTurken

Sweden17 Posts

March 11 2011 00:51 GMT

#50

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=185618

kwan_1984

Canada58 Posts

March 11 2011 03:25 GMT

#51

Well against Bang play,,, thats mostly what i see these days anyhow.... WHen I first started this build last week,,,, it would just hardly win,,,, but If u can snipe the bangs with your banshees, and micro your 30 rines or so to avoid bang attacks,, u shjould be golden,,, dont forget to rally more banshees, marines and thors.... but 4-5 banshees have an easy time with the bangs I find....

Usually after they lose the first set of bangs to the banshees,,, they basically give up on that strat, i have yet to see a persistant zerg constantly going bangs after he gets his first batch just annhilated.

I always fly my banshees in first if i know they are going speedling/bang play.... obvi micro away from queens..... if they have mutas and bangs,,,i always just take my thors up with the banshees,,, once the bangs are done,,, then bring in your whole fleet of marines, its GG from there...

I cant really find a good reason to make the raven, maybe if u see heavy muta play, but at this point in time,, u rarely see to many of them..... 95% of the time (mind u this is in platinum low/diamond leval). once they see your walled off and not expanding,, they will go for the FE,,,,, when u hit,,, all they usually have is a bunch of speedlings/bangs/roaches or like 4-6 mutas... I have an easy time winning when they FE. I have yet to come upto a roach rush,, but obvi if u see any of this cheese about to happen just throw down some bunkers,,,, taht should but u enough time until your first banshee comes out to play.....

I have only played maybe 10 or so zergs with this strat, so take my advice with a grain of salt as of right now,,,, but the out come has been the same. I have an easier time with zerg than I do protoss with this strat.

Im loving it though.... the only time I lost was when i first started playing with the strat and messing it up, and when I was not paying attention and got 4 gate, warp rushed on a crappy close distance map. Again my mistake........

b0urne420

Canada112 Posts

March 11 2011 03:41 GMT

#52

tank/marine/raven/banshee works better imo

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/148891-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis

its just a polt push, nothing new. but i think its safer than thors.

kwan_1984

Canada58 Posts

March 11 2011 04:21 GMT

#53

I donno, against zerg and toss i always prefer thors,,, prolly just due to their versatility. and thors are really good against mutas

matrius

100 Posts

March 11 2011 21:58 GMT

#54

On March 11 2011 12:41 b0urne420 wrote:
tank/marine/raven/banshee works better imo

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/148891-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis

its just a polt push, nothing new. but i think its safer than thors.

I disagree. I watched the replay too, the main reason you won was macro - you were up 1000 minerals in army size when you fought, which means you could have almost anything in your army and still win.

2 thors are stronger than the 4 tanks you had, 2 thors would do more damage, and cost slightly less. Chargelots aren't as much of a problem, they can't be lifted up by phoenix, they break through force fields, can fire at flying stuff, don't damage your own army with splash and don't require any micro really. You can't be surprised and caught unsieged and lose because of it, and they can be more easily repaired, if you bring along scvs (tanks don't have as many HP, so will off die to focus fire without repair doing much, but not so for thors).

I'm not saying that tanks aren't good, but in smaller numbers I prefer Thors. If you had 10+ tanks, well, thats a different story.

OlorinPA

28 Posts

March 15 2011 22:47 GMT

#55

On March 11 2011 06:49 Tynan wrote:
Seems Protoss could get a lot of mileage out of abusing mobility vs this build instead of simply smashing into it head on at their base. The same way Z deals with tank marine rolling across the map. Hit it before it arrives. Consider:

-Thors are slow as hell.
-PDD doesn't move.
-No Stim means Collossi and Stalkers have good hit and run potential vs Marines.

If you can see them moving out, then engage them with Stalkers enough to make them drop a PDD or two in the middle of the map, you can then just run away.

Even further, with some mass Blink stalkers you might be able to just send half the army to blink into the base and smash stuff while the other half plays scrappy and tries to delay the Thor push. Get a head start on the base trade.

I don't think that would work all that well. You can't abuse the mobility while the terran is holed up in his base. Your only window is while the terran army is moving to your base...and your game plan is to split your army up? So what if you are attacking my base? I'm planning on winning with this one single push (and it is nasty to hold...there is no way you will hold it if you split your army up). And besides, terran...floating buildings...usually not a good idea to go for a base race unless you have a significant advantage. I mean the whole point of this build is to go in with the one push and wreck shit. You can't delay it. I'm going to push on to your base regardless of what you do to try and stop it. A far more sound tactic would be to manage to hold the push after an FE. Then you are lightyears ahead. But I have yet to run into a protoss who has managed it successfully. The only thing that gives me trouble is a 4 gate.

Co-lol-sus

Bulgaria141 Posts

March 15 2011 23:17 GMT

#56

Couldn't this build be crippled by an early gas steal?

kwan_1984

Canada58 Posts

March 15 2011 23:21 GMT

#57

Not really,,,, u can get by off one gas, by the time u even need the second gyzer u have enough rines to take it out.... toss try to do it to me all the time,,, useless, and just sets them back 70 mins

kwan_1984

Canada58 Posts

March 15 2011 23:28 GMT

#58

When i see a 4 gate, i swap up the build order slightly,,,, it will add on some time to your build,, but it will save your butt.... I have had to do it a couple of time,, because once I just got my asss beat when a guy went 4 gate on me,,, and i wasent quick enough with the bunkers.... my fault for shitty scouting.

Anyways,, in the past, i always found 2 thor pushs, always held off 4 gates very well. So i found, if I saw a 4 gate happening, id get my armoury right after the fact and get out one thor.... then continue on witht he build.... One thor plus the marines, will hold off the 4 gate rush welll... of course with some repair scvs,, if u feel more comfortable get some bunks.

OlorinPA

28 Posts

March 16 2011 20:39 GMT

#59

I've since slightly altered the build. Since such a build is vulnerable to a well executed 4 gate, I've started using a scan rather than dropping a second mule. The scan hits about 30 seconds before the last three gates finish. If you see a 4 gate, drop a second bunker and add barracks rather than tech. The nice thing is, if you don't scout a 4 gate or some other form of early aggression, you can go ahead and salvage the first bunker and make back a lot of the money you lose from the mule. The end result is that you can scout an incoming 4 gate much more easily without slowing down the build at all.

OlorinPA

28 Posts

March 16 2011 20:41 GMT

#60

On March 16 2011 08:17 Co-lol-sus wrote:
Couldn't this build be crippled by an early gas steal?

Not unless you double gas steal. You don't need the second gas until after you start the factory. A gas steal will slow it down somewhat, but it certainly won't cripple it.

matrius

100 Posts

March 16 2011 20:47 GMT

#61

OK, thanks for the update Olorin! Been using this to great effect!

Techno

1900 Posts

March 16 2011 21:36 GMT

#62

I'm a Terran player and 1 basing makes me

I failed you.

kwan_1984

Canada58 Posts

March 17 2011 01:37 GMT

#63

U should have canceled that hellion and got your thor out a bit quicker....
I always push when i have 3 thors, 3-4 banshee, 1 raven.
and I take 6-10 scv for the ride...... if u woulda broug[ht a couple scvs,,,, that would have been yours to win i think

Ironsights

United States196 Posts

March 17 2011 03:22 GMT

#64

I got a day off coming up...definately going to have to test this out.

I have been experimenting with a 2rax (non-upgraded) marine expand followed by fast ups for thors. Marines supporting 3/3 thors is EVIL and with scouting you can add in counters such as vikigns for collosi or a raven or two for mass stalkers. Trouble is a 3gate robo tends to cripple me.

This build, however, sounds like it would kick a three gate robo in the teeth.

kwan_1984

Canada58 Posts

March 17 2011 05:45 GMT

#65

Ohhh does it ever,,, own the 3gate robo..... lay down those PDD's. Snipe collsi or immortals.... then its basically GG right there,, once those are gone.

I showed my buddy this build,,, he has been using it for zerg and toss,,,, with the addition of a couple scvs for healing.... he went from bronze to diamond, in less than 2 weeks.
that just goes to show how strong this build is....

now that he is in diamond,,, hes gunnna clearly be garbage hahah because his micro and all that is noobish.....he owes it all to the build really,, not his skill.

Cheerio

Ukraine3178 Posts

March 18 2011 08:05 GMT

#66

I would suggest 1 gate FE into mass zealot immortal + voidrays. Some sentries for guardian shield also needed.

getpicture

141 Posts

March 18 2011 12:39 GMT

#67

we need high level protosses to fight against this. theorycrafting void rays and stuff, lets see it in action.

TheSurgeonTV

United States131 Posts

March 18 2011 12:57 GMT

#68

First replay really shows the power of the build. No micro needed it seems for this unit comp. I might have to try this at the master's level.

OlorinPA

28 Posts

March 18 2011 19:58 GMT

#69

On March 18 2011 17:05 Cheerio wrote:
I would suggest 1 gate FE into mass zealot immortal + voidrays. Some sentries for guardian shield also needed.

On March 18 2011 21:39 getpicture wrote:
we need high level protosses to fight against this. theorycrafting void rays and stuff, lets see it in action.

On March 18 2011 21:57 TheSurgeonTV wrote:
First replay really shows the power of the build. No micro needed it seems for this unit comp. I might have to try this at the master's level.

I have yet to come up against a protoss composition that beats it....and I've seen a lot by now. The closest I have come to losing with it (I'll have to post the replay later) is against a protoss who went for a three gate robo expand and had two colossus out in time. The marines melted and almost cost the game. Though I still don't bring SCV's...so if I had some for repair it might not even have been close. I have not lost yet, once I hit with the push. The only times I have lost with this build is against some forms of early aggression.

I've also started branching out into using this build in all matchups.

TvT: Looks promising. Pretty much smash standard bio and standard tank compositions. Haven't come across anything weird yet.

TvZ: Noooot so much. Depends on what the zerg does. If he does not make banelings...or only a handful...then I've won every single time (roaches meeeeelt, and sometimes he scouts the banshees so makes hydras....not a good decision). But if he makes a lot of banelings....all the marines melt and he's able to clean up. However, I still haven't really tried microing. I pretty much just send my big blob of units over and expect to win. If I could block the banelings with the Thors...well then it might remain quite effective.

LesPhoques

Canada782 Posts

March 19 2011 00:01 GMT

#70

This is easy to stop as protoss. Played twice against a terran guy who did exactly this build. All you gotta do this 1 gate, robo then add 2 gates. You gotta go contain with your first stalker and zealot. Get observer and try to keep them on one base as much as possible. Get your expo up and add double forge + robo bay. Chronoboost upgrades while terran won't be able to do that because he will have to upgrade bio,mech AND air which is impossible in this build b/c it is too gas dependent.
Blink stalkers with colossi will be enough to win this.
Eazypeazy.

BTW terran guy was 3100 masters (if my memory isnt wrong), can't post replays since he asked me not to.

getpicture

141 Posts

March 19 2011 01:02 GMT

#71

1 gate robo is vulnerable to proxy factory. if you are at this base containing him, i''ve snuck 2 hellions to ppl who do that build.

also reactored rax opening FE, add two tech labs pump marauders beats any forge opening.

Jumbled

1543 Posts

March 19 2011 01:12 GMT

#72

On March 19 2011 09:01 LesPhoques wrote:
This is easy to stop as protoss. Played twice against a terran guy who did exactly this build. All you gotta do this 1 gate, robo then add 2 gates. You gotta go contain with your first stalker and zealot. Get observer and try to keep them on one base as much as possible. Get your expo up and add double forge + robo bay. Chronoboost upgrades while terran won't be able to do that because he will have to upgrade bio,mech AND air which is impossible in this build b/c it is too gas dependent.
Blink stalkers with colossi will be enough to win this.
Eazypeazy.

BTW terran guy was 3100 masters (if my memory isnt wrong), can't post replays since he asked me not to.

With this much tech and upgrading, it sounds like it might not be ready in time for the push Olorin uses. IF you can't post the replay, would you be able to post the times that various parts of the build finish? Blink, +1 upgrades, range, multiple colossi out, etc.

RaE21

United States260 Posts

March 19 2011 02:10 GMT

#73

3100 Masters here. I've been using this build quite effective so far, I believe win rate is currently 90% or so. While the build is extremely strong if you can defend against any early pushes (4 gate), the one build I just ran into that nearly beat it was a 1 base colossi type strat. At the 11 min mark, our armies met at his natural, where he was able to barely hold off the push. We then transitioned into a macro type game, where there were continuous army trades between the both of us. Despite both of us being able to expand to our third gold, I eventually won with the same composition except with a few upgrades and more thors in army. A few considerations are that his observer did see both starport and armory before I could snipe. Replay is below:

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/151631-1v1-terran-protoss-gutterhulk

Squigly

United Kingdom629 Posts

March 19 2011 02:34 GMT

#74

Hey sorry if its been said but i only read the first 3 pages. By the looks of the replays 5 stalkers in 5 minutes would wreck this.

It really does look like a good 4 gate would to, however apart super aggressive rushes it looks solid.

turdburgler

England6749 Posts

March 19 2011 02:49 GMT

#75

On March 17 2011 14:45 kwan_1984 wrote:
Ohhh does it ever,,, own the 3gate robo..... lay down those PDD's. Snipe collsi or immortals.... then its basically GG right there,, once those are gone.

I showed my buddy this build,,, he has been using it for zerg and toss,,,, with the addition of a couple scvs for healing.... he went from bronze to diamond, in less than 2 weeks.
that just goes to show how strong this build is....

now that he is in diamond,,, hes gunnna clearly be garbage hahah because his micro and all that is noobish.....he owes it all to the build really,, not his skill.

because half of diamond isnt people carried by 4gating right?

kwan_1984

Canada58 Posts

March 19 2011 03:01 GMT

#76

OlorinPA

Post some of your TVT asap if you could....

I am haveing a easy time with Zerg and toss..... beat master league players with this strat.....
Muta-roach heavy armys give the build some havoc...... but tahts because I dont get the raven in zerg play,,, i get an extra banshee....

but I tried this TVT without any sucess mind u i have tried this ONCE.....

post some replays i am very curious.

kwan_1984

Canada58 Posts

March 19 2011 03:02 GMT

#77

BTw i am your number one fan, your strat helped me get from a silver player to a 3200 diamond terran lol,,, so u should post some tvt replays,,, well for me anyways.

HeroFighter

United States51 Posts

March 19 2011 03:33 GMT

#78

if you see the opponent doing a 1 gate FE, you can switch to tanks instead of thor and have about 30 marines 3 tanks 2 banshees 1 raven at about 8:30 bring along some scvs and you should be able to destroy the toss

tarath

United States377 Posts

March 19 2011 03:39 GMT

#79

If anyone can show a replay of P holding this I'd really appreciate it, I can't seem to stop this rush, but I'm a noob so I'm probably just be bad.

kwan_1984

Canada58 Posts

March 19 2011 03:45 GMT

#80

no need to switch to Tanks at all my friend,,,,,
we want the toss to FE,,, makes our job 100000000 times easier and favouring us

kwan_1984

Canada58 Posts

March 19 2011 03:46 GMT

#81

this is not so much a rush id say either budsy...
nor is it cheese,,,,, i think cheese is something 8 mins and less,, this puppy comes at u after 11 mins..... gives u a lot of time to prepare.

kwan_1984

Canada58 Posts

March 19 2011 03:51 GMT

#82

i think constant pressure,,,, at the wall,,, can mess up the groove of things,,,

i have had some early agression from close spawning points,,, really mess up my groove,,

but i still come out on top,,,,,

there was one time when i was just starting to play with this build,,,, budsy made a 3-gate robo,,, FE..... kept pressure with stalkers,,,,, kept attacking my wall off,,,,, from the the very first stalker he made,,,, threw me right off,,,,,

he got his second,,, got greedy got a third,,,,, byt the time i could catch up on the build,,, i knocked off 2 of his bases,,, he did some nice damage to me..... sneaky bastard made a 3rd,,, with 3 stargates,,, pumped out some voids,,,,, i had to GG.....
that loss willl always be stuck on my brain,,,, to always always always scout the whole map,,,, and to make bunkers for christ sakes... i was such a cheap bastard then,,,, i relied on pulling scvs to repair my walll,,, instead of just making 1-2 bunks,,,,, until my army was stronger....

visselli

Canada76 Posts

March 19 2011 08:23 GMT

#83

To start off I'll say that I hate using this build because 1 basing this hard makes me guilty as hell as im not getting any better by doing it. However, It does have some potential, I think if you could incorporate stim into this then it would be much more powerful. I've tried using this build 3-4 times at the 3200+ master level and had very little success with it as protoss seems to have too much time to prepare for it in any way he sees fit.

kwan_1984

Canada58 Posts

March 19 2011 11:05 GMT

#84

REPLAYS VISSELLI.... i used thi against a master league zerg,,,,,
came up JUST SHORT,,,, because of me being over excited and shitty macro,,,, it was my game to win,,,,, u know how it is,,, first game of the day,,,, u just woke up,,,,
u attack,,,, he pulls off all his drones to take out your last Thor,,,, u look back at your base,, with your eyes half glued shut because u just woke up,,,, sitting in your base, is about 15 marines, 1 banshee and 2 thors....

yeahhhh thats what happend to me this morning,,,,, fuckkkk,,,, i felt like rapeing little boys after seeing that...... and noticing that I had rallyed all my shit to my orginal thor,, he died,,, and forgetting to re-rally my stuff........ it was my game to win......

but id like to see how a protoss "easily" beats this,,,, u must be butchering this build badly.

hi im new

Germany150 Posts

March 19 2011 12:46 GMT

#85

anything 1 1 1 with massing marines and a raven and then all inning somewhat around 10 minutes with scvs is strong. nothing new.

Squigly

United Kingdom629 Posts

March 20 2011 16:18 GMT

#86

Okay, ive done a lot of testing with this and it does very well against Toss. However, people seem to have been saying it does well against Z. Mass lings/bling just destroys this. Just wanna put it out there.

`Zapdos

United States935 Posts

March 20 2011 16:29 GMT

#87

As toss all you have to do is go 3gate robo stargate just like your preparing against anyother banshee all in, only you get voidrays instead of pheonix. Voidrays gateway units and 1 collosus destroys this build completely.

kwan_1984

Canada58 Posts

March 20 2011 21:20 GMT

#88

kwan_1984

Canada58 Posts

March 20 2011 21:30 GMT

#89

@zapdos got a replay of that happening?? or is this your theory?

i find collosis falll hard with this build,,, with some decent macro, i always focus the collosi.... with 4 banshee and 3 thor,,, she drops like a sack of patatoes in like point five four seconds.

this is my personal experience,,, and like the OP i have used this prolly close to 100 times now.
so I have seen just about every single variation.

How many v-rays, collsi, and gateway units do you plan on even having at 11 mins anyhow? both of those are pretty damn pricey units,,,, and u wont really know what to build until u march that observer over to my base,,,, by the time he rolls over tehre,, i have a raven sitting there waiting for u.

by then it still leaves u pretty clueless....

U will prolly think mech play. or some sort?

at that time when most guys send there obs over,,, alll we have really is our rines, and raven,,,, and thor on its way out,, or 1 poppin out..... so u may see that,,, or if u really wanna risk a v-ray death,,, just to scout me. that usually works in my favour. when that happens,,, at most, u usally get one marine and a scv kill. if that.

Jumbled

1543 Posts

March 21 2011 06:30 GMT

#90

On March 21 2011 01:29 `Zapdos wrote:
As toss all you have to do is go 3gate robo stargate just like your preparing against anyother banshee all in, only you get voidrays instead of pheonix. Voidrays gateway units and 1 collosus destroys this build completely.

That's just not going to work. You can't even sustain 2 gates plus a robo and stargate off one base, and that's assuming you don't build a robo bay. If you tried to go both colossus and voids you'd simply have no units when this push came, and there's no chance you would stop it.

OlorinPA

28 Posts

March 25 2011 17:22 GMT

#91

Finally had a friend of mine beat it. We practiced it several times in a row and he finally held it with a 1 base colossus build. He had three colossi out by the time the push hit.

Squigly

United Kingdom629 Posts

March 25 2011 17:30 GMT

#92

Yea i had a friend do the exact same thing. I was considering pushing a little earlier with 1 less thor but Strike Cannon. They will only have 2 colossi then and you can take them both out immediately. Unless of course your attacking up the ramp which would just be silly.

Also if you scout them 1 basing, you can probably just expand because its not like they can really attack into you. A couple thors on cliffs can SC any colossi walking past. Get a pdd or 2 down so the thors dont get wrecked and your golden

Abandon

United States8 Posts

March 25 2011 17:40 GMT

#93

LOL yeah, all you have to do as Protoss to defend is 1base colossus+void. No big deal or anything.

PowerKock

46 Posts

March 25 2011 20:05 GMT

#94

you would have to do some pretty fuckin unbelieveable scouting, to pull that off as a Toss....

when do u ever asee a toss go collosi/void? its more rare than seeing a unicorn.

Pookie Monster

United States303 Posts

March 25 2011 20:38 GMT

#95

this guy is right, this push is too late against a really good toss, ive been winning with a variation that hits much sooner its basically two thors a raven two banshees and about 12 marines and a handful of scvs its very effective against a wide vareity of openings from toss

iAmJeffReY

United States4262 Posts

March 25 2011 20:40 GMT

#96

On March 26 2011 05:38 Pookie Monster wrote:

Show nested quote +

Well don't just leave it at that dude. As a horrible TvP player I gotta know. I hit at about 12-13 with 3-4 thors with strike, 2-4 banshees, raven, and 15-20 marines and 10 scvs.

Would love to hit earlier lol

RaE21

United States260 Posts

March 25 2011 21:01 GMT

#97

Build is great but a little susceptible to early rushes I find, especially during the building of the first air unit out of the starport as its switched to the tech lab. The variation of the build that I find a little safer is to build a raven first instead of banshee, and as soon as raven starts building throw down 2 bunkers, as it will be much easier to prevent early pushes or proxies. In addition, by building raven first, by the time you push you will have energy for 2 PDDs.

PowerKock

46 Posts

March 26 2011 01:13 GMT

#98

if i feel or scout early type of strat coming from toss,,,, I ALWAYS make the Thor first priority to come out and I will do whatever necessary to get it out first,,, even it means delaying the port...

since we know that 2 thor pushes hard counter 4 gate rushes.... or at least in my experience anyways. after u hold off the 4 gate bullshit,,, go on with your macro....

Command and conquer....

Jumbled

1543 Posts

March 26 2011 04:17 GMT

#99

On March 26 2011 02:22 OlorinPA wrote:
Finally had a friend of mine beat it. We practiced it several times in a row and he finally held it with a 1 base colossus build. He had three colossi out by the time the push hit.

That sounds about right. One-base colossus is still a very good response against a delayed 1-base all-in.

Cyaxis

7 Posts

March 26 2011 07:39 GMT

#100

I've tried this build in several obs games to see if it was viable... this build is amazing. Apparently the only counter is this 1 base colo you guys speak of. However, I haven't encountered this yet.

Has anyone tried this successfully at a diamond+ level vs Zerg? I think it could be effective.

PowerKock

46 Posts

March 26 2011 09:02 GMT

#101

yes works well,,,, if the player goes, bling, ling,muta....... which is extreamly common. in tvz

the ONLY time i have trouble is when the zerg goes roach heavy,,,,,, the trick is,,, do not let him get his 3rd base,,, if he getsa third,,, its sooo hard to deal with.

its beatable... i am still experimenting with this builld as well,, instead of a raven tho,, i get an extra banshee. against zerg

slmw

Finland233 Posts

March 26 2011 09:59 GMT

#102

Did you have SCVs with you when you attacked?

Is it possible to scout and identify the attack while doing a normal build (3gate expand, 2gate robo) and do a transition into 1base colossi instead of expanding? Terran will actively try to deny all scouting, but is it enough to know that T is staying on one base?

Tailss

Sweden233 Posts

March 28 2011 17:24 GMT

#103

This build has worked out amazing for me, 3-0 so far.
Im only a 3k diamond player though, so dunno how good it would work against mid/high masters.

PowerKock

46 Posts

March 28 2011 17:52 GMT

#104

i donno if this is even possible, im not very smart at making build orders....

but against zerg, is there any way you could possibly get an extra Factory instead of the barracks... and pump out hellions or possibly blue flame hellions out of a reactored factory,,,,

and make this a deadly zerg strat? or is it wayyyy to much to do off of one base? and still push out at 11-12 mins???

Say
get a few marines at the start-
X amount of blue flame hellions-
3 thors
3-4 banshees. and push?

I have used the orginal strat against Zerg a lot, with about a 70% success. i also find though Banelings always just melt my marines.... and it goes downhill.... would this be possible to get this composition off of one base to strengthin the 11 min push against zerg? i dont get a raven against zerg i usually opt for an extra banshee instead.

ReachTheSky

United States3294 Posts

March 28 2011 17:53 GMT

#105

I believe there is already a thread on this started by sksyen.

PowerKock

46 Posts

March 28 2011 20:52 GMT

#106

whats it called do you know???

Bonham

Canada655 Posts

March 28 2011 21:05 GMT

#107

This push incorporates everything annoying about terran.

Whathe

United States60 Posts

March 28 2011 21:26 GMT

#108

On March 26 2011 13:17 Jumbled wrote:

Show nested quote +

That sounds about right. One-base colossus is still a very good response against a delayed 1-base all-in.

Would a push be necessary against a no expand toss?

pakman

United States57 Posts

March 28 2011 22:19 GMT

#109

i think a chargelot/sentry/immortal/void or pheonix comp would destroy this push. seems like kind of a stretch to get all this but if terran can get a whole bunch of gas heavy units, why not toss? a couple of cannons would also do great. seems like either a 1 base toss or a fe toss can hold if they kno what theyre doing

Tonem

Australia91 Posts

March 29 2011 03:11 GMT

#110

Hi Olorin,

Yet to try this build out, but look forward to doing so in my free time.

Just a quick question, I noticed how you stop SCV production at around 16 scvs + mule (=~20scvs), but you also seem to float a few minerals (as gas is obviously the limiting factor with these tech heavy builds). Would it not be reasonable to keep producing a few extra scvs, and bring some along for the push?

I noticed there were occasions where you even had enough minerals to throw down a CC, if you truly have no plans to expand, why not just bring some scvs to strengthen the big attack? Is there any particular reason that I'm missing?

Sorry if this has been asked, I couldn't really be bothered to read through all of the 6 pages :\

Edit: *When I said 16 scvs I meant 16 mining scvs + the 6 for gas*

*actually yeah I noticed you ARE tight for minerals leading up to the push, but even if you do stop at 22 scvs I don't see why bringing a few a long for the ride wouldn't hurt :O

HoMM

Estonia635 Posts

March 29 2011 13:37 GMT

#111

VTdesrow just lost to this build on stream, was great lulz.
He went for expo and had 2 colossi when the push arrived, he scouted most of terrans base with his first observer before it got sniped with marines and raven.
The terran sent the first hellion he made from the factory in to scout, got picked off at the ramp but he did see army composition.
At the final engagement, the terran didn't pull scvs and desrow still didn't stand a chance and lost the fight pretty marginally.

Whathe

United States60 Posts

March 29 2011 23:34 GMT

#112

On March 29 2011 07:19 pakman wrote:
i think a chargelot/sentry/immortal/void or pheonix comp would destroy this push. seems like kind of a stretch to get all this but if terran can get a whole bunch of gas heavy units, why not toss? a couple of cannons would also do great. seems like either a 1 base toss or a fe toss can hold if they kno what theyre doing

That's quite expensive, but if you can hold down a third and not get killed after expo... Just might work!

Jumbled

1543 Posts

March 30 2011 00:00 GMT

#113

On March 29 2011 06:26 Whathe wrote:

Show nested quote +

Would a push be necessary against a no expand toss?

Not sure what you're asking here. This Terran build is a hard one-base attack. If you abort it and expand instead, the protoss can scout it quickly and expand himself without being behind.

Jumbled

1543 Posts

March 30 2011 00:06 GMT

#114

The difference lies in the tech trees. Getting a variety of high-tech units is a much bigger investment of time and resources for the protoss player because they have a much more spread-out tech tree. One-basing is by far the safest response for the protoss player, but they'll almost certainly need to focus on a single tech branch to beat this push, otherwise they simply won't be ready when it comes.

Whathe

United States60 Posts

March 30 2011 00:10 GMT

#115

On March 30 2011 09:00 Jumbled wrote:

Show nested quote +

Not sure what you're asking here. This Terran build is a hard one-base attack. If you abort it and expand instead, the protoss can scout it quickly and expand himself without being behind.

Well sopposedly you have a cc finished when you push, and he didn't expand yet scenario.

Blu Mercenary

United States1 Post

March 30 2011 01:19 GMT

#116

I would get phoenix as they are amazing in dealing with banshees and ravens. A few immortals and zealots should clean up the rest easily. If you have enough gas for it stalkers would do even better than the zealots. You should be able to see this coming with your observer if you go robo so it should be easy to prepare for. GLHF

PowerKock

46 Posts

April 01 2011 00:03 GMT

#117

i have been practicing this strat against some fellow terran friends, Gold leval guys, im diamond, but we play for shits and giggles. It gives me a chance to practice strats without to much stress.

Anyways I thought id give this build a whirl...

It definatly handles MMM pretty darn good. throwing down 2 PDD's during a big battle, makes even stim rauders useless as old dried up tits.

with decent Micro its beat a Marin, rauder, tank medivac push as well...

I think it would hold its down against a marine tank viking with some decent micro with the banshees getting tanks, pdd blocking vikings, and thors cleaning up marines.

like i said im still fiddling around with this against terran. before Id even consider it a viable strat, i have been searching for a good tankless tvt build for some time. So i thought why not give this build a try....

So far it beats toss like 95% of the time in diamond league
Zerg 80-90% diamond league

still practicing it with terran tho, before i give her a whirl on ladder.

spybreak

United States684 Posts

April 01 2011 00:45 GMT

#118

Thanks for the post. I have had great success with this comp. Past couple of days though I switched it up to 2-3 base. I just added another fac techlab and star techlab to continue production of Thors and banshees. For the mineral dump I either go rines or hellions. I thought about adding ghosts but there just not enough gas unless I go 3 base.

iChau

United States1210 Posts

April 01 2011 00:47 GMT

#119

With 1 gate fe, 3-5 cannons + 2 gateways once I see no expo by 8:30 minute mark. Mass zealots/sentries, rendering PDD quite useless. I also chronoboost only gateways if my +1 armor did not finish yet.

Ironsights

United States196 Posts

April 01 2011 00:52 GMT

#120

I have tried this build with great success. Of course, I also really enjoyed Janook's two thor push...and since I do that with +1 armor and strike cannons it seemed more powerful to me...so I started alternating.
I found this build to be superior when playing against protoss. The reason is, when you lose with the 2Thor push it is usually because the toss chooses to engage on his ramp...isolating your thors from most of the scv's, getting massive concave advantages and the like. However, if you saw this coming you could fight from the low ground using a scan and be OK...
With OLorin's push you have banshees...this is so critical in my eyes. Not only can they do pretty good damage to and robo units, they provide vision up cliffs makinging ramps FAR less scary to thros AND on top of that can be pulled out of the fight to go unpower tech structures or slaughter probes...with a rave dropping PDD's making stalekrs lol worthy...
Lets just say that when I have lost with this push it was my fault, not the strategy I used.

Thanks for adding another weapon to my arsenal against toss!

PowerKock

46 Posts

April 01 2011 00:58 GMT

#121

On April 01 2011 09:47 iChau wrote:
With 1 gate fe, 3-5 cannons + 2 gateways once I see no expo by 8:30 minute mark. Mass zealots/sentries, rendering PDD quite useless. I also chronoboost only gateways if my +1 armor did not finish yet.

PDD will render your cannons useless... your composition will get ROLF-stomped-crushed... been there done that,,, its not that good.

PowerKock

46 Posts

April 01 2011 01:03 GMT

#122

I have been fiddling with a FE version of this build, since i love it so much, I basically took the idea from another build, that get a OC after the factory is being built. The build is the same idea , except you are on 2 fact, 2 starports, 1 barracks, with the mineral build up u can do the same thing and get the two extra barracks.... I push around 13-14 mins. with 6 thors and 5 banshee and a raven..... I really am still fiddling with the idea, of joining to very sexy strats together... So far I have only been trying it against zergs. Its just wayyy to overwhelming of a push at 13 minutes. When your pushing out you are rallying 2 thors at a time, 2 banshees and 3 marines, off of two bases u can almost do this constantly.

Very deadly. Once I have the build order in concrete I will share it.

PowerKock

46 Posts

April 01 2011 01:05 GMT

#123

Its very sketchy though early game. what u can do, is make some hellions to harass a bit, and force them to make roach.

Quotidian

Norway1937 Posts

April 01 2011 02:49 GMT

#124

I found it's affordable to expo when you're pushing out with the 3 thors and also maintain worker production, delaying an scv here and there to squeeze a thor out. Is this really *that* all-in if it's such a powerful push anyway?

It's a perfect push for XNC, but has anybody tried this on one of the much larger maps - Typhon or altar for instance?

thedonkpunch

3 Posts

April 01 2011 05:40 GMT

#125

I've had quite a bit of success with this build against T or P that FE. I've found that adopting the mindset that "at 10 minutes I'm going to grab everything and just go kill him" helps: usually I have 3 or 4 thors, a gaggle of marines, and 4+ banshees. Bring a few SCVs as a meatshield and unless the opponent has specifically scouted it (which is tough to do with raven and thors), it is very difficult to stop. Throwing down a few bunkers helps immensely as many toss players I have come across put on early pressure when they scout the thor, or just wind up 4gating me.

For protoss, I think the solution is to very actively scout/poke/pressure, and try to get as much shit out on one base as possible. Perhaps blink stalker harass?

Terran it loses its effect if they go fast tanks. If they FE it's usually fairly easy to finish them off.

I have not tried it against zerg but I suspect it will be equally effective. Lack of pressure from T usually makes Z drone up real hard and that is not helping their army composition. 10 or so minutes is generally when mutas pop out, and if Z invests too heavily in mutas, they are in real trouble from marines/thors. If they go roach heavy that may work, but then there are banshees. I'm excited to try it out.

edit: I have only played against low diamond high plat players. Judging from other posts it looks to be somewhat effective at higher leagues as well. I only lost once to a very well timed 4gate that I had failed to scout.

PowerKock

46 Posts

April 01 2011 08:27 GMT

#126

if you read my posts,,, extreamly effective, even at the 3300 diamond levals, well before reset obvi... liffle more work involved, aka micro. Extreamly effective.

defending 4 gates, fuck the bunkers, scrap them, what i do, is push to get the thor out asap, take 4-5 scvs off the line for repair, and defend. easily makes the toss run home like little girls... they lose to many units attempting to even break down your wall.

im still fiddling around with this in terran, in my post above it tells you what comps i have played against and have done well against. PDD works awesome against rauders (a thors worst enemy). dealing with tanks, usually takes some micro and a bit of patience, like any tvt, wait for them to be unsieged or catch them undfended and let the banshees take them out one by one.

This build really just eats up iechoics build to pieces.... by the time they even see you have thors, its way to late for him to go BCs. I usually keep a banshee or a thor back at the mineral line, until the attack, just incase of the sneaky drops.

Hell even a 2 thor push 97 percent of the time will rolfstomp a iechoic strat, but thats just me, or maybe my luck lol. Not saying id beat iechoic himself, but everyone who usually goes this route and i scoute it, i just giggle inside. because I know exactly what hes doing.

Quotidian

Norway1937 Posts

April 01 2011 21:59 GMT

#127

On April 01 2011 11:49 Quotidian wrote:It's a perfect push for XNC, but has anybody tried this on one of the much larger maps - Typhon or altar for instance?

guess I'll answer my own question. It's still really good cross possitions on a map like typhon peaks.
Even a horribly executed, slightly confused version of the build will do well against a lot of standard protoss builds

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/157574-1v1-terran-protoss-backwater-gulch
(name of the link is wrong for some reason - it's on typhon)

PowerKock

46 Posts

April 05 2011 03:06 GMT

#128

Wow,,, anyways i have been doing this strat with great success on 1v1.... even in the high diamond leval.

I taught my buddy it who is a low leval bronze player, but i made him practice the build like 30 times until he had it down pat, together we are a silver team, that just got bumped to gold.

But in 2v2 TT VS PP, we got steam rolled by a toss who made 2 collosis each, so 4 total, and both had a handfull of stalkers.

So no matter what the splash from 4-5 colosis just wrecks this build. Its definatly a lot harder to pull off in 2v2 even when both players are doing the exact same build, well i get more units than he does because hes clearly a bit slower with his macro.

we then had a PZ match, we did really well, infestors are a bitch! jesus christ.

Anyways the point of my post, is even with only 4-5 collosis, vs our 8 collosis , marines and banshees, we some how still got rolled pretty damn bad.

IM almost starting to think for 2v2, if it would be a good idea to get a shield upgrade and maybe the 250mm cannon, if the mins and gas is there, and maybe push 1 min later. What do you guys think?

2v2 PP Vs TT i almost always see a rush from protoss to build as many collosis as possible, so what do you guys think I should do?

when both of us are using this build? Opt for the 250mm cannon? or is it better off to get shield.

i should stated we both did bring our SCVS... maybe 8-10 each.... i was wondering also for 2v2. When i set my scvs to repair, whats the best way to keep them on my thors, instead of my scvs running to my buddies thors and scvs. nothing more annoying when my scvs are healing his shit instead of mine.

Scila

Canada1849 Posts

April 27 2011 08:33 GMT

#129

Just tried this cause I've been having huge problems playing macro against Toss (they just a move their deathball whatever composition I have). First game I got 4gated and lost (although it was somewhat close), 2nd game I got 3gate Voidray'd and lost. This build is strong only if your opponent doesn't go for early pressure.

joeppp

Netherlands10 Posts

April 27 2011 09:59 GMT

#130

I disagree. The only thing I've lost to is cheese and (failure to adapt to) voidrays.

My winrate against protoss is absurdly high (mid diamond) using this build, against FE it's almost an autowin at my level. I include a preemptive bunker to stop early stalker pressure or 4WG. I don't like Banshee first for harass (it won't do significant damage anyway) but prefer Raven first to get the extra PDD when attacking. I move out right when the third Thor is finished, and take ~12 SCVs with me. Right behind me is the fourth Thor being produced, and additional Banshees and Marines from three barracks. With minimal micro to focusfire Colossii you just roll the Protoss as they usually don't have enough stuff to stop this when executed perfectly.

As an alternative you could move out when the second Thor is finished, especially against FE this seems a bit stronger due to hitting earlier as the Protoss is outproducing you.

Anomandaris

Afghanistan440 Posts

April 27 2011 10:21 GMT

#131

Meh, this allin comes very late. Most allins arrive at 10 min, while this allin leaves the terran base at 11 minute mark. If protoss has made a rather quick expo, his expo will kick in and destroy this push.

KenZo-

Faroe Islands190 Posts

April 27 2011 23:06 GMT

#132

Someone said that it works great against Z aswell, but I tried it against Z (mind you only one time) and he massed lings, and it destroyed it hard, he had around 4 queens and spines aswell, scouted banshee I guess. But 1st game vs z did not work out 0-1 vs Z 5-1 vs Toss

Good build vs toss for sure, no doubt about it.

skunk_works

United States109 Posts

April 29 2011 17:03 GMT

#133

On April 28 2011 08:06 KenZo- wrote:
Someone said that it works great against Z aswell, but I tried it against Z (mind you only one time) and he massed lings, and it destroyed it hard, he had around 4 queens and spines aswell, scouted banshee I guess. But 1st game vs z did not work out 0-1 vs Z 5-1 vs Toss

Good build vs toss for sure, no doubt about it.

i do this build vs z and on low low diamond level it has worked ok so far, i usually open 1-1-1 with reactor on factory, get out 2-4 hellions and 1 viking from starport, send viking to snipe overlords etc. and send out 4 hellions and 5-6 marines to take towers and poke into zerg expo.

if spines pull back and try to prevent him from getting a ling to ur base to scout what ur doing, as im doing this little poke im grabbing my natural, and adding 2 more factories, while still pumping marines from 1 rax. get ur expo going and try to see if hes going ling/bling/muta or roach infestor (very important). if going roach i cut a few thors and get more tanks with siege. move out right after zerg gets his third going, you can usually take care of his third and theres not much he can do.

also try to get a raven in there somewhere to help snipe creep spread.

DNB

Finland995 Posts

April 29 2011 19:46 GMT

#134

I did this today and ended up fighting a 1-base colossus build, but he only had 2 out by the time I attacked him.

We traded armies, but I was more cost efficient. I also started my second CC after I started pushing out (@11 mins), and I had my natural up when he just started it (I won it later)

Is it a good idea to start a CC when you push out? I mean, if you can get your opponent's natural down along with the army while losing your own, you could still be ahead because your CC is about 50-75% done? I'm now talking about situations where you can't kill your enemy outright... Or is is just too all-in?

skunk_works

United States109 Posts

April 29 2011 20:59 GMT

#135

if they did like a 3 gate robo FE you should be able to take theirs down if not kill them outright, but if for some crazy reason they fight it off, their expo should die, and then if u need to pull back and grab ur natural and you should be ahead. but usually if u keep constant pressure you should win. forgot to add, once tech lab is done on starport make raven first before banshee, this way it will have enough energy to drop 2 defense drones, 1 to kill expansion and one to bust ramp if u have to

gejfsyd

Poland156 Posts

April 29 2011 21:27 GMT

#136

the counter is a lot of zealots, some sentrys and voids. If toss opened with robo, colossus may also work, but voids are better. If protoss expanded early he shall have a lot bigger army.

DNB

Finland995 Posts

May 01 2011 08:23 GMT

#137

This build is sick strong, I have won my last 5 TvPs out of 6, and gotten into diamond because my TvP used to be very bad.

However, the only time I lost was when my opponent went for a relatively fast expo and a super fast psi storm. I was on my way to his base while he attacked, he stormed my marines and feedbacked my raven and some banshees. His zealots did some noticeable damage, and I was left over with 3 medium HP thors and a low hp banshee... My opponent however blind-countered my build because he had no idea what was going inside my main. Question is, how would I fight off (if possible) this kind of a counter?

Here is the replay:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/171253-1v1-terran-protoss-backwater-gulch

My build order still needs bit refinement, but I'm sure that counter would've done sick damage to my rush anyways.

joeppp

Netherlands10 Posts

May 01 2011 14:38 GMT

#138

You lost that game because of huge macro failure. Your foodcount at 10:00 should be around 85 with this build (against easy AI even 90 is doable!), yours was only 60. Even worse, you only had 26 scvs. That's just bad. You were also pretty slow, moving out at 11:30ish while this should be 10:45 latest (with three Thors that is).

Some notes:
- Always be producing scvs, every second of the game, until you have 30.
- Always be producing marines out of your first barracks.
- Use factory to build techlab for starport to get your Raven out faster.
- You want three barracks fully running when you push out, you had two.
- I personally like to walloff with SD-Rax-SD, and only add one bunker to protect against early agression.

I suggest you practice the build a lot more against the AI, until you can consistently get to at least 85 food at 10:00, and have your third Thor out shortly after.

DNB

Finland995 Posts

May 01 2011 15:02 GMT

#139

On May 01 2011 23:38 joeppp wrote:
You lost that game because of huge macro failure. Your foodcount at 10:00 should be around 85 with this build (against easy AI even 90 is doable!), yours was only 60. Even worse, you only had 26 scvs. That's just bad. You were also pretty slow, moving out at 11:30ish while this should be 10:45 latest (with three Thors that is).

Some notes:
- Always be producing scvs, every second of the game, until you have 30.
- Always be producing marines out of your first barracks.
- Use factory to build techlab for starport to get your Raven out faster.
- You want three barracks fully running when you push out, you had two.
- I personally like to walloff with SD-Rax-SD, and only add one bunker to protect against early agression.

I suggest you practice the build a lot more against the AI, until you can consistently get to at least 85 food at 10:00, and have your third Thor out shortly after.

Yes, I'm still not mastering the build yet. I haven't figured out the exact order how to build my stuff, but I find it really hard to produce constantly from all buildings while not getting supply blocked.

A detailed version of the exact build order till the 10:45 mark would be appreciated...

joeppp

Netherlands10 Posts

May 01 2011 15:41 GMT

#140

This is how I do it.

Remarks
- Continuous scv production until you hit ~30, only then should you cut some.
- Continuous marine production from all barracks.
- Raven first to get enough energy for an extra PDD.
- Banshee after Raven, then Thor, Thor, Banshee, Thor, Banshee.
- Your third Thor should be finished around 10:30.

Build order
- 10 SD, 12 Rax, 13 Gas, 15 OC, 16 SD, 18 Fact, 20 Gas (superstandard)
- 22 SD, 25 Starport, 26 Bunker, 27 Techlab@Factory, 30 Swap Factory & Starport, 30 SD, 35 Armory.
- 37 2xSD, 42 Techlab@Factory, 43 Rax, 56 Rax.
- From 53 onwards nonstop SD.

This buildorder is very tight, and you can absolutely not get supply blocked or you're screwed. I find it easier to execute to look at the specific orders for the constructing SCVs themselves:
- i: 10 SD, Rax, SD, Factory, Starport, SD, Armory, wait 20s, SD, SD, SD, ...
- ii: 22 SD, Bunker, Back to mining
- iii: 37 SD, Rax, Rax, Back to mining
- iv: 37 SD, Back to mining

Hope this helps;)

DNB

Finland995 Posts

May 01 2011 17:06 GMT

#141

On May 02 2011 00:41 joeppp wrote:
This is how I do it.

Remarks
- Continuous scv production until you hit ~30, only then should you cut some.
- Continuous marine production from all barracks.
- Raven first to get enough energy for an extra PDD.
- Banshee after Raven, then Thor, Thor, Banshee, Thor, Banshee.
- Your third Thor should be finished around 10:30.

Build order
- 10 SD, 12 Rax, 13 Gas, 15 OC, 16 SD, 18 Fact, 20 Gas (superstandard)
- 22 SD, 25 Starport, 26 Bunker, 27 Techlab@Factory, 30 Swap Factory & Starport, 30 SD, 35 Armory.
- 37 2xSD, 42 Techlab@Factory, 43 Rax, 56 Rax.
- From 53 onwards nonstop SD.

This buildorder is very tight, and you can absolutely not get supply blocked or you're screwed. I find it easier to execute to look at the specific orders for the constructing SCVs themselves:
- i: 10 SD, Rax, SD, Factory, Starport, SD, Armory, wait 20s, SD, SD, SD, ...
- ii: 22 SD, Bunker, Back to mining
- iii: 37 SD, Rax, Rax, Back to mining
- iv: 37 SD, Back to mining

Hope this helps;)

Yeah it definately helped, thanks!

By the way, the reason I don't like wall-offs because I have bad memories from protosses who go some sort of early void rays. I find that if I block my wall with bunkers, the voidrays cant really harass my ramp... But then again I don't know if 1 bunker without a wall is enough to hold some sort of committed pressure from the toss (4gate, 3gate robo et cetera).

Kukaracha

France1954 Posts

May 01 2011 17:54 GMT

#142

On May 02 2011 02:06 DNB wrote:
By the way, the reason I don't like wall-offs because I have bad memories from protosses who go some sort of early void rays. I find that if I block my wall with bunkers, the voidrays cant really harass my ramp... But then again I don't know if 1 bunker without a wall is enough to hold some sort of committed pressure from the toss (4gate, 3gate robo et cetera).

I don't think so, while doing a 1-1-1 build I'd personnally recommend 2 bunkers to be safe against any strong pressure.
FF can prevent repairs, and I don't know if you'd have a Thor early enough to stomp them (and even then, moving a Thor = lack of DPS).

But I think that the key to hold off any sort of early pressure is repairs. Having a control group of SCVs with autorepair on can win you the game. Hence the 2 bunkers to make sure everything can be repaired!

Once the pressure is over, you can salvage the bunkers and use the money to expand/get an extra rax. In the end, I don't think you can really go overboard with the bunkers if it's not high masters play...

SxYSpAz

United States1451 Posts

May 02 2011 01:42 GMT

#143

On May 02 2011 02:54 Kukaracha wrote:

Show nested quote +

thors crush ffs?

spybreak

United States684 Posts

May 02 2011 01:45 GMT

#144

On May 02 2011 10:42 SxYSpAz wrote:

Show nested quote +

thors crush ffs?

Yes all massive units do such as Ultras and soon to be massive Archons

Ryder.

1117 Posts

May 02 2011 02:15 GMT

#145

Maybe I'm just a complete noob but how does 1 base collosus beat this? Sure you fry the marines, but how are you gonna deal with a handful of banshees and thors? Collo aren't that great against thors, and how will you deal with the banshees? You will barely have any gas for stalkers, and the PDD will just make things even harder for them...am
I missing something completely obvious?

SxYSpAz

United States1451 Posts

May 02 2011 02:22 GMT

#146

On May 02 2011 11:15 Ryder. wrote:
Maybe I'm just a complete noob but how does 1 base collosus beat this? Sure you fry the marines, but how are you gonna deal with a handful of banshees and thors? Collo aren't that great against thors, and how will you deal with the banshees? You will barely have any gas for stalkers, and the PDD will just make things even harder for them...am
I missing something completely obvious?

holy shit is ur name really ryder? and no 1 base collo will get destroyed

jlai

Hong Kong63 Posts

May 02 2011 07:40 GMT

#147

On May 02 2011 02:54 Kukaracha wrote:

Show nested quote +

I have great success with this build in ladder. I think proxy void ray and early pressure would be the threat. I would highly recommend 2 bunkers instead of 1. There's a timing where you only have 1 rax producing marine and a raven. Thor/banshee isn't out. Need 2 bunkers to hold the pressure.

DNB

Finland995 Posts

May 02 2011 14:28 GMT

#148

On May 02 2011 10:42 SxYSpAz wrote:

Show nested quote +

thors crush ffs?

But thors come a few minutes later after the usual 4gate timing

Powerkock84

Canada24 Posts

May 02 2011 19:54 GMT

#149

If im expecting four gate pressure, or anythign fast or cheesy... of course it will knock some time off the build,, but I till always come out on top...

If i scout early star gate, ill throw down 2-3 barracks early. and get some marines.

4 gate, I always always pump out the thor as fast as I possibly can, it always holds it off.

High diamond player, been useing this strat for months, have ran into just bout every damn toss strat I can think of. I have only ever lost to cheese, (lack of scouting) in the early stages of learning the build. but since then I learned my mistakes and scout scout scout. So i know which way to do the build.

I have very high sucess with this as well against zerg, soemtimes i dont get the raven...I always fly out my flock of banshees out first, and ping off as many Bangs and lings as I can. Not as much success as protoss, about 80-85%.... Definatly gotta do a shit ton of macro to make this work. Its not like protoss where you can go flying in there with your death ball.... Gotta be smart with your scv placement, marines thors etc....

Also I never ever stop scv production, for 2 reasons, for some reason the push fails. I can get a expo up and saturate it faster, and I Always always always bring repair scvs with me,,, in both toss and zerg games. I dont need too, i think its a personal preference. Plus it helps your thors out a lot, and more meat shield.

Powerkock84

Canada24 Posts

May 02 2011 19:59 GMT

#150

Oh yeah forgot to add, I really really like going early banshee, and following it up with raven. going out with your first banshee, MAKE sure it stays alive at all costs, do a bit of scouting and some teasing in and out for a bit, just enough to make him either tech switch or waste mins on spores.. This 95% of the time makes him spend resources on all kinds of spores crawlers, and the best if they tech switch right into hydras (dumbest thing they could do i find....

thesums

Taiwan257 Posts

May 02 2011 20:57 GMT

#151

What level is this effective on? I am a player that likes 2 rax early marauder pressure into expand vs toss. And from what I am seeing in high Gold level (playing some plats atm), protoss is all about 4 gating, and to hold this off I need to deny early pylons and have 2 bunkers with scvs ready b4 the attack occurs. (btw, this 2 rax expand marauder heavy punishes 4gates so well LOL)

Somehow i feel this build cannot hold 4gate, and like 90 percent of protoss at this level does 4gate....ppl just want more points, they dont care about playing a fun game. (it seems that way for all races, zerg 1 base banes, terran 3 rax)

Powerkock84

Canada24 Posts

May 02 2011 22:39 GMT

#152

I used this strat, from gold,,, all the way to 3600 diamond last season, and still useing it now,

does awesome with a 4 gate push, if u read the posts, it will tell u how to deal with it. and it deals with it very well....

most people just get 2 bunks, to hold it off...
some people will right into getting their 3 rax earlier
me myself, I try to get my thor out as fast as possible, with a few scvs out front for repair. Usually holds it off well. U clearly need to be scouting tho and have everything at your wall, scvs ready to rock and repair.

This strat will own gold league, if done properly. U shouldnt lose a single game if you do it right, and scout.

sicarii

United States93 Posts

May 02 2011 23:01 GMT

#153

I watched the first game and its pretty obvious if he would of had the immortals focus down the thors in the first battle he would have crushed you... he had like 6 immortals that shot at marines the entire battle while the 4 thors did massive damage to stalkers...just bad micro on his part.is the reason you won that game.

Powerkock84

Canada24 Posts

May 03 2011 01:45 GMT

#154

a win is a win..... he got outplayed.

thesums

Taiwan257 Posts

May 03 2011 23:08 GMT

#155

i might have to give this a try in the near future, but for now it seems 2 rax expand really punishes 4gate, and this thor all-in is off one base though.....u cant transition out very well, and zealots immortal combo will beat this i believe.

i guess i am not brave enough with all-ins (unless i lost many scvs already)

thesums

Taiwan257 Posts

May 03 2011 23:11 GMT

#156

and oh yea i believe a good 4gate with couple sentries own 1/1/1 build even with 2 bunkers and scvs ready. They just FF your rax and you are in trouble.

Edit: 4 gate comes fast though, i believe around 5 min in game time, and they just keep reinforcing

Powerkock84

Canada24 Posts

May 04 2011 01:58 GMT

#157

BWAHAHah how mant times in this post has this exact same counter been posted like 1000132123123 times? do it i dare,,,, see what happens LAWL

DNB

Finland995 Posts

May 11 2011 16:39 GMT

#158

Again this build got decimated by a blind FE with chargelots and HTs.

I held off his cannon rush first and then proceeded to macro up normally. At the attack I didn't assume storms so I forgot to split my units. But even with splitting, would I still have lost that?

Replay uploading doesn't work at the moment on sc2replayed.com, but if anyone has ever gone against this build and won, how did you do it?

AmericanUmlaut

Germany2576 Posts

May 11 2011 18:42 GMT

#159

This DNB fellow is a regular practice partner of mine and also a rat bastard who keeps kicking my ass with this build.

Before finding this thread, I had already worked out that a four-gate or proxy void rush would take it out, but I'm trying to work out a way to survive it using my standard PvT BO; gate, robo, gate, expand. This gets my obs into his base around the 7:00 mark, at which point it's pretty obvious what's going on (armory building, raven out, factory and starport both with tech labs but neither upgrading), and I have about four minutes to greet his army as it moves out, or 4:45 to meet it at my front door.

I've tried teching to blink and massing stalkers to snipe marines and banshees as the army crosses the map. I felt like this could actually work given sufficient micro, especially if you can force the PDDs out.

I've tried teching to HTs and getting four out to feedback the raven and banshees, this also seemed like it had potential.

I'm considering adding a starport at 7:00 and just pumping voids, but I'm concerned about the marine numbers.

I think this thread has arrived a consensus about which builds straight up counter this push, but since I don't want to blind counter this very specific push every game, I'm curious what better players would consider a good response to seeing this coming at the 7:00 mark with and expo, three warp gates and a robo out.

owenowens33

United States94 Posts

May 19 2011 05:08 GMT

#160

On May 12 2011 03:42 AmericanUmlaut wrote:
This DNB fellow is a regular practice partner of mine and also a rat bastard who keeps kicking my ass with this build.

Before finding this thread, I had already worked out that a four-gate or proxy void rush would take it out, but I'm trying to work out a way to survive it using my standard PvT BO; gate, robo, gate, expand. This gets my obs into his base around the 7:00 mark, at which point it's pretty obvious what's going on (armory building, raven out, factory and starport both with tech labs but neither upgrading), and I have about four minutes to greet his army as it moves out, or 4:45 to meet it at my front door.

I've tried teching to blink and massing stalkers to snipe marines and banshees as the army crosses the map. I felt like this could actually work given sufficient micro, especially if you can force the PDDs out.

I've tried teching to HTs and getting four out to feedback the raven and banshees, this also seemed like it had potential.

I'm considering adding a starport at 7:00 and just pumping voids, but I'm concerned about the marine numbers.

I think this thread has arrived a consensus about which builds straight up counter this push, but since I don't want to blind counter this very specific push every game, I'm curious what better players would consider a good response to seeing this coming at the 7:00 mark with and expo, three warp gates and a robo out.

I wanted to bump this post, I understand that there are some hard counters to this build, such as a blind FE into charglot HT, but blind FE's are unstable. I would really like to find out how to hold off this push starting with a 1 gate robo and seeing the armory around the 7 minute mark.

Thanks

Catchafire2000

United States227 Posts

June 11 2011 14:06 GMT

#161

HMMM, there are some protoss players here saying that they can counter this build easily but they aren't posting replays at all. The terran players are using this build to great success and it seems that the skill required is minimal as opposed to the skill needed by the protoss player to counter this. The OP mentioned this "My reasoning for lack of scouting is...I simply don't care what the protoss is doing." which I find amazing because I am sure many Terran players don't really care what the terran is doing.

The pros such as Drewbie, how has the build work for you? Anyone?

Catchafire2000

United States227 Posts

June 11 2011 14:19 GMT

#162

If anything, I think that maybe the 4-gate is a good blind counter to this as well as early VR/3Gate warpin at Terran base similar to what incontrol tried against major in MLG 1st set
http://s3.majorleaguegaming.com/2011-columbus-starcraft2-champ.html

General_Winter

United States719 Posts

June 11 2011 18:46 GMT

#163

In customs I see a lot of mid high diamonds doing this. I don't see it much on the ladder though, so take this with some salt.

I find that if you open 3 gate robo and scout this you can just refuse to expand and keep making zealots stalkers and imortals off one base until they come down their ramp. You cant beat them in a choke, but once they move into the open zealots really wreck up the place. Particulalry with immortals to help. Have your force down and back from the ramp, watch with an observer, and just be willing to wait.

Regan123

20 Posts

June 26 2011 03:03 GMT

#164

This is an extremely powerful build at diamond level in both US and EU. Even killed a master toss with 2-3 times of my apm. And this is with major screw ups like getting supply blocked or not following the best build order and starting the attack at 12:00 - 13:00 (by which time some may get 2 collosi).
Gonna use this build until I get bored of winning toss

Cyaxis

7 Posts

June 26 2011 05:41 GMT

#165

I've actually made it from low platinum all the way to high diamond using this build. However, at this level I'm getting roflstomped even when I execute the build almost perfectly. They usually mass up large amounts of immortals by the time I attack and are able to take out my push.

Fast expands are also good against this. The attack hits pretty late and gives the toss a lot of time to build a larger force.

getpicture

141 Posts

June 28 2011 02:31 GMT

#166

I'm in low masters and i have 90% win rate so far against protoss.(61% win /loss average) I do this build too. It can be a bit weak against nexus first or 1 gate FE, but both of those greedy protoss also die to the other all in variants.

1 gate FE will die to quick marine tank (no reactored raxes)

and the other good allin is the dual port banshee+ 3 rax assuming protoss expands at late timing and gets robo.

IBTabs

New Zealand20 Posts

June 28 2011 06:15 GMT

#167

looking at your replays, you instant lose to a 4 gate and would probably lose to any sort of one base all in actually, you have such a small army in the first 8 minutes of the game.

Furthermore you dont have enough marines to hold of a zealot stalker push and your tech path could be revealed so easily.

getpicture

141 Posts

June 28 2011 08:03 GMT

#168

4 gate is pretty easy to defend with properly placed 2x bunkers and repair- one in front and other further away to stuff up the forcefields.

Diabolegal

United States110 Posts

July 03 2011 01:29 GMT

#169

On June 28 2011 15:15 IBTabs wrote:
looking at your replays, you instant lose to a 4 gate and would probably lose to any sort of one base all in actually, you have such a small army in the first 8 minutes of the game.

Furthermore you dont have enough marines to hold of a zealot stalker push and your tech path could be revealed so easily.

Wrong. Two bunkers full of marines + SCVs repairing + 1 Banshee stops 4 Gate pretty easily. Keep in mind that Warp Gate research takes longer now than it did when the OP played those games.

I'd like to know if the OP has found any new weaknesses with this build in light of the other patches/changes.

Carbonara

Singapore3 Posts

July 04 2011 16:42 GMT

#170

Hi, I am Master 1.3k protoss on sea server. This terran build is very common on the ladder nowadays and it is very difficult to beat. I have attached the replay of me beating it.

Do take note it is a blind build and I hit very early that his raven pop out after everything is dead.

Pls pardon my low APM in game

http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/(T)MarinePower_vs_(P)Carbonara_the_shattered_temple_sc2rep_com_20110704/10796

Diabolegal

United States110 Posts

July 06 2011 02:10 GMT

#171

I just played the "blsDeep" guy from one of the replays. He poked with an Observer, saw my Thors before I killed it, and made Immortals. Bringing a lot of SCVs along, therefore, would likely make this push much stronger.

Edit: I lost.

Stipulation

United States587 Posts

July 06 2011 02:36 GMT

#172

On July 05 2011 01:42 Carbonara wrote:
Hi, I am Master 1.3k protoss on sea server. This terran build is very common on the ladder nowadays and it is very difficult to beat. I have attached the replay of me beating it.

Do take note it is a blind build and I hit very early that his raven pop out after everything is dead.

Pls pardon my low APM in game

http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/(T)MarinePower_vs_(P)Carbonara_the_shattered_temple_sc2rep_com_20110704/10796

I don't understand why you uploaded this game. I can't see how a replay of a blind proxy stargate helps the discussion. What am I supposed to take away from that? This should be my new standard if I have trouble against this build?

Enigmoid

United States48 Posts

July 08 2011 21:51 GMT

#173

Based on what I've been reading and having played against this, I think favoring "instant damage" units like immortals and void rays is the way to go. They're both good against thors and decent against marines when accompanied by zealots, they balance the advantage that thors and marines have vs projectile-shooting stalkers, and their shots don't get blocked by PDD, which is big. Immortals are always going to be a better choice vs this than stalkers anyway, since they do the same or more DPS vs everything and will always take more damage when thor/banshee shots are involved. I would like to see or try an immortal/zealot(chargelot?)/void ray build. Or maybe archons, they tank well and don't get blocked by PDD either.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't check what page this was on. Hope it wasn't too old for a bump.

Jumbled

1543 Posts

July 09 2011 00:35 GMT

#174

On July 09 2011 06:51 Enigmoid wrote:
EDIT: Sorry, didn't check what page this was on. Hope it wasn't too old for a bump.

The last post was only 3 days before yours. Besides, if a strategy is still in use then there's absolutely nothing wrong with posting in its thread, even if it's been around for a while.

Harmonized

57 Posts

July 24 2011 01:21 GMT

#175

Im thinking a rly lean build will be the way to go if u fast expanded, as to take advantage of the "unleaness" of this build.

Like as soon as you scout this you go 6/7 gate zealot(charge)/archon
This is theorycrafting though so keep that in mind.
But honestly that seems like the way to go.

Sry for bumb but i really have problems with this and it´s still a rly popular strategy!

Teacher74

United States47 Posts

February 21 2012 01:54 GMT

#176

I just got hit by this on the ladder. Holy crap.

Any replays of how to hold this after you 1 gate expanded? (No Blind counters)

dHsn

Brazil26 Posts

November 11 2019 05:26 GMT

#177

I was trying to watch the replays on OP but it doesn't work.
Does anyone have a recent replay or a video with this build?

`dunedain

653 Posts

November 11 2019 19:14 GMT

#178

There have been 7 years worth of updates since that time. Old replays were no longer playable after HotS.
The raven has since gone through major changes. For example, the pdd (which is an integral part of this build) has been removed from the game.
Although you can still try to do a 1/1/1 variation against protoss these days and can get substantial results, especially in the lower leagues.

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