I'm sorry, I'm not going myself to do the compilation, but I just would like to initiate a discussion about all of them.
I basically lose a lot vs a lot of variants of terran one base all-ins including banshees and raven, and I'm really tired of it. I think I don't respond correctly, so what I would like to compile in this thread is a list of all variants and the correct answer from the Protoss. I think that the variants should be distinguished by the buildings in the terran base, as it pretty well indicate what is coming out.
I will start my list with some cases:
Build 1) Two starports with tech lab and barracks pumping marines
Response A: What you want are a lot of Zealots, a healthy amount of Sentries and some Stalkers. Get the phoenices as late as possible, it is enough to have one or two sweeping in after you took care or the Marines. As long as your Gateway army is big enough, you should be able to hold.
Response B (from 3600 Master Player Farmerz): Even though I've never seen two starports on one base, because it's way too costy gas wise, I would counter as follows: I would totally expand very early with 2 gate robo (observer needed against possible banshee harass) and then you are bound to add 4 more gates and only build stalkers and 1-2 sentry for guardian shield.
The next thing you need is blink, which should be done when he walks out (about 10th minute or so I assume). He most likely won't have a lot of medivacs, so every stim hurts him a lot. when he walks out you can try to snipe single air units or force a stim and when he finally reaches your base, he will be damaged enough that 1 wave of zealots (6) should tank enough while the stalker do the rest. And even if he manages to make you pull back and kill your expansion, you are way more mobile and will eventually pick out every unit he has.
Build 2) One starport with tech lab, barracks with tech lab, factory with techlab
Response A: You probably mean Raven/Banshee/Siege tanks/Marine. What really helps is to engage him somewhere in the middle of the map to slow down his advance, and he might even drop the pdd if you are lucky. The longer you hold him off, the longer you are mining from 2 bases while he is mining from one with possibly scvs pulled.
If he sieges up somewhere outside your natural, you will have troubles holding it off. Very important is a good unit spread so you don't eat too much tank damage, send one Zealot in front to eat the first volley. Also, don't panic when he sieges up in front of your natural and starts shelling your nexus with one tank. As long as your mineral line is safe, your Nexus has enough HP and your production facilities stay unharmed you can afford to mass a few more units, possibly attacking when he tries to leapfrog forward too fast.
Phoenices are even more useful in this scenario as they can both lift tanks and combat banshees, and you probably will have time to get out a few of them. Warp Prisms can either drop Immortals/Zealots on his tanks if you want to feel like a pro, or mess up his main a fair bit.
Response B (from 3600 Master Player Farmerz): What you shouldn't do is expand, because right before your expansion would pay off, he will attack it and you never have enough units to keep your expansion alive.
The best thing to do is stay one base and tech colossi. You are not in need of range, which is very gas costy on one base anyways. So what you want is 1-2 sentry for guardian shield and chronoboost colossi all the time. Combined with some stalker and a lot of zealots (which not only are good damage-tanks, but fit into your gas heavy build) you are fine. It's important to spread your units when he trys to march up your ramp you can attack him from different angles. Marines die so fast vs colossi and he will never have as many tanks as he needs to kill every unit instantly. He will only have like 2-3 tanks and like 2 banshee + raven. It's crucial that you keep your observer alive somehow, because if he sees he loses all forces he will snipe your observer and turn invisible on and then you will be in trouble.
Focus the banshees with your sentries and stalkers and march forward with your zealots and colossi in order to kill the tanks (focus with colossi on long marine lines or big marine clusters).
Response: Ever since the targeting AI was patched, you can hold this off with nearly everything. Don't invest in more Sentries (one for guardian shield is enough), just build Zealot/Stalker/Immortal. Kill the scvs with your Zealots which don't bug out anymore, and focus down the thors with the rest.
Build 4) Thor + banshee + marines (I don't know the number of buildings, but this build is easily scouted) + Show Spoiler +
Response (from 3600 Master Player Farmerz): Blink stalker are indeed not bad, I personally would play a lot of stalker and some immortals and abuse the range and the speed of the stalkers in order to damage his units before he arrives at your base. 1-2 Sentry for guardian shields are crucial and forcefields. Unlike colossi, thors are not able to walk over marines. That's why you can forcefield behind the thors when he marches up your ramp, in order to kill the forcefields ne needs to walk over them with thors, but marines are blocking him, so that gives you a good advantage. Replay: http://rapidshare.com/files/448909343/thor_push.SC2Replay
Build 5) proxy 4 barracks pure marines + scv rush (scouting trigger => no 2nd gas at proper timing) + Show Spoiler +
Response: make a 2nd gate and get lots of stalkers out asap
Response: spread your sentries out, and target fire the ghost if you can
I would really like to make this list exhaustive, I'm sure I forgot a lot of these builds even if I lose to them everytime. I will try to keep the thread up to date, including your replies!
Thank you very much,
Michele
Edit: New all-in added. Could you please post your level as well? Just to be informed for which play level the response works, no elitism
Edit: Artosis' guide about stopping terran all-in. I don't like this guide, it doesn't really explain how to stop the all-ins, just how to scout them.
Edit: Added very nice contribution by Farmerz, a top Master Player, and his first replay.
Build 5) proxy 4 barracks pure marines + scv rush (scouting trigger => no 2nd gas at proper timing) response: make a 2nd gate and get lots of stalkers out asap
Build 6) 4 barracks stimmed MM response: need to force field well, if you went 1 gate expand, u need to micro well and pull probes (but it's gonna be really difficult)
Build 7) 4 barracks MM + ghost emp response: spread your sentries out, and target fire the ghost if you can
I used to have a ton of trouble with the later T 1-base pushes. Will it be marine raven banshee? Thors? I was trying to guess what was coming, but by the time I`d get an observer into their base it was too late to react. So I now base my build on if T walls or not. If they wall in, I suspect 1-base and 1-base back with 3 gate stargate. Even if they`re going MM behind the wall this push is extemely effective, since a VR charging on the wall is brutal. If they don`t wall, it`s almost 100% going to be some kind of MM play and you have the freedom to play normally.
Fast 2 thor push is normally countered by engaging the enemy on the ramp/ having lots of zealots.
Void rays pretty much hard counter it as well. Immortals are much harder as strike cannons mess up your day.
For build 1 I would say blink stalkers possibly. Depends on how many bases he is doing that. Also it should have a pretty large timing window where you should be able to kill/ really damage him.
For build 4 I would say that zealot/void rays should be able to handle it without to much difficulty but you could also go pheonix/ immortal and if he strike cannons the immortals you can griviton them up and cancel the attack and earn extra baller points.
You do seem to be missing a few like the numerous polt timing attacks (raven+banshee+mmm/m and tanks/ etc etc) and marine tank all in.
On February 17 2011 06:41 HellsHeaven wrote: For build 3
Fast 2 thor push is normally countered by engaging the enemy on the ramp/ having lots of zealots.
Void rays pretty much hard counter it as well. Immortals are much harder as strike cannons mess up your day.
For build 1 I would say blink stalkers possibly. Depends on how many bases he is doing that. Also it should have a pretty large timing window where you should be able to kill/ really damage him.
For build 4 I would say that zealot/void rays should be able to handle it without to much difficulty but you could also go pheonix/ immortal and if he strike cannons the immortals you can griviton them up and cancel the attack and earn extra baller points.
You do seem to be missing a few like the numerous polt timing attacks (raven+banshee+mmm/m and tanks/ etc etc) and marine tank all in.
Otherwise it could be a really useful post.
Thank you! Yes, I miss a lot of builds, even if I lose to those: could you please be more precise about the composition of the ones you listed? That's the aim of the thread!
About the counter, I would maybe like to see opinions from more players, and maybe supported by replays?
All my answers are based on the assumption that you intend to expand after 1-3 production structures.
On February 17 2011 05:10 Entropia wrote: Build 1) Two starports with tech lab and barracks pumping marines response: Stargate // Robotic bay. Phoenix and Colossi. Am I right? It is mostly as an example, I'm too low (Diamond player) to tell what really is good.
Colossi as response to an 1 Base Play is a bad choice most of the times. Reason is it simply takes to much time and opportunity costs to get them (as response!) The first Colossus with Range takes at least 130sec (depending on CB) and 775/600 Ressources (considering you already got the robo) to get and in most cases, your opponents all in hits before you can get a 2nd one (which binds another 375/200 for at least 38sec). Much better choice may be Armor Zealot/Sentry composition, supported by a few Phoenixes and observers. Naked marines get obliterated by Zealot/Sentry. If he delays his push for Stim and/or Combat shield get +1 Armor. Use Forcefields to either block marines during stim or prevent them from kiting/shooting your Phoenixes. Make sure you have enough room to bring all your zealots to combat at once.
On February 17 2011 05:10 Entropia wrote: Build 2) One starport with tech lab, barracks with tech lab, factory with reactor
Did you mess up something? That would be Banshee/Raven, Marauder, Helion. If thats the case: Voidrays -> Free win. More likely might be 1 Raven, Banshees, Tank, Marine. In that case: again mainly Zealot/Sentry + few Phoenix + Obs + Immo (depends on how long he delays his push in favor of more Units; 1 Immo per 2 Tanks might be enough. get +1 Armor aswell as soon as your eco kicks in). Fight away from your expansion to make him waste PDD in the open, then retreat covered by FF if possible to fight him again at your Natural. If he retreats instead you are ahead 2 Base against 1 Base. If he commits without PDD, you have an advantage at defending.
On February 17 2011 05:10 Entropia wrote: Build 3) Fast 2 Thor push with SCV response: 3 gate stargate?
Voidrays + Immo + Zealots (in that order) + 1 Sentry for GS. Spread Voids out to avoid splash. If it appears that you cant kill Thors retreat your Voids and go for Base Race.
On February 17 2011 05:10 Entropia wrote: Build 4) Thor + banshee + marines (I don't know the number of buildings, but this build is easily scouted) response: blink stalkers?
Stalkers dont cut it. TBM has insane DPS and Insane HP (due to Thor Repair). You need the same to combat that. Zealot/Sentry + Voidray + Obs. Maybe a Phoenixes if he goes for some banshee harassment before. Just 1-2 Sentries for Guardian Shield (mainly for Immo/Voids). Get +1 Airattack if he delays his push in Favor of more Units and/or any kind of Armory Upgrade. Fight in the open field to make sure your zealots can attack at once. Focusfire Thors with Immo/Void, Zealots simply autoattack. Your goal is to burst down Thors against repair and let Zealots shred down whatever marines are in front of thors to protect your Immos and Voids against Marine-Snipes. Key to this is have a lot of costefficient stuff rather than cute tech.
In every case: If you already expanded as you notice what he is doing, either strongly consider pulling probes to make sure you crush his 1 Base Push or cut them in order to sustain more unit production. Dont cancel that Expansion if he is not immediatly rushing towards you with MM (tech-openings need a while to get all their stuff up). A Nexus provides 10 Supply therefore its opportunity costs drop to 275 as soon as it finishes and decrease further the more of its CB you use on your production structures due to saving of additional structures. If he SCV All-in definitly pull at least as much worker as he did.
~ 2600 Diamond, cant provide replays did not ladder since Masters due to exams :>
Thank you Xanatoss, I think that now we should discuss with some replays, as the advices are starting to be different. I see that basically everytime u add a stargate! Do you cancel the expo upon scouting the all-in?
I forgot to link the video of Artosis about it also. I add it to the OP.
barracks with reactor, factory with techlab, starport with techlab -> mass marines + raven+ tanks with siege+banshees (sometimes with cloak but mostly not)+3/4 of his scvs
I lost so many times to this build, especially in close positions. I don't really know what to do..
Ravens nullify your stalkers, you can't snipe the raven with phoenixs because they melt to marines. Immortals against tanks does work, but they just die to the marines shortly after-> usually before the tanks are all down. Voidrays die to the marines, Colossi are not an option because by the time the push comes you have like one without range and 4 gateway units. Cannons are also not an option because they get outranged by siege tanks.35 You can't really delay the push with sentrys: If you ff your ramp, the terran just sieges below and uses the raven/ banshees for sight.
Incontrol just played against this very thing on his stream and got smashed, so it does seem more than a low level problem ( I am around 3k Diamond)
I will assume a normal 2Gate Robo expo, but anything works. One thing that is important if you scout the Terran being on one base for a long time is that you will have to cut probes at some point, or you will experience the same death of greed like many Zergs do. 38 or 41 are good numbers for that (32 on minerals, 6/9 on gas)
Build 1) Two starports with tech lab and barracks pumping marines response: Stargate // Robotic bay. Phoenix and Colossi. Am I right? It is mostly as an example, I'm too low (Diamond player) to tell what really is good.
Colossi come too late if you try to expand and get phoenices at the same time. What you want are a lot of Zealots, a healthy amount of Sentries and some Stalkers. Get the phoenices as late as possible, it is enough to have one or two sweeping in after you took care or the Marines. As long as your Gateway army is big enough, you should be able to hold.
Build 2) One starport with tech lab, barracks with tech lab, factory with reactor
You probably mean Raven/Banshee/Siege tanks/Marine. What really helps is to engage him somewhere in the middle of the map to slow down his advance, and he might even drop the pdd if you are lucky. The longer you hold him off, the longer you are mining from 2 bases while he is mining from one with possibly scvs pulled.
If he sieges up somewhere outside your natural, you will have troubles holding it off. Very important is a good unit spread so you don't eat too much tank damage, send one Zealot in front to eat the first volley. Also, don't panic when he sieges up in front of your natural and starts shelling your nexus with one tank. As long as your mineral line is safe, your Nexus has enough HP and your production facilities stay unharmed you can afford to mass a few more units, possibly attacking when he tries to leapfrog forward too fast.
Phoenices are even more useful in this scenario as they can both lift tanks and combat banshees, and you probably will have time to get out a few of them. Warp Prisms can either drop Immortals/Zealots on his tanks if you want to feel like a pro, or mess up his main a fair bit.
Build 3) Fast 2 Thor push with SCV response: 3 gate stargate?
Ever since the targeting AI was patched, you can hold this off with nearly everything. Don't invest in more Sentries (one for guardian shield is enough), just build Zealot/Stalker/Immortal. Kill the scvs with your Zealots which don't bug out anymore, and focus down the thors with the rest.
Build 4) Thor + banshee + marines (I don't know the number of buildings, but this build is easily scouted) response: blink stalkers?
Never seen this anywhere, but I don't think the Terran can actually get this fast enough to become dangerous. Blink Stalkers look useful, as well as Void Rays. Simply having enough stuff should work as this looks inferior to the Raven/Banshee/Tank/Marine push, just don't get phoenices,
Build 5) proxy 4 barracks pure marines + scv rush (scouting trigger => no 2nd gas at proper timing) response: make a 2nd gate and get lots of stalkers out asap
Yes, getting up more gates asap and chronoboosting units out is the way to go. I prefer going Stalker/Sentry to slice off around a third of his Marines, and then adding Zealots later so that the Marines which are on the other side of the forcefield have nothing to shoot at.
Build 6) 4 barracks stimmed MM response: need to force field well, if you went 1 gate expand, u need to micro well and pull probes (but it's gonna be really difficult)
I thought it was 3 rax stim which was more common. At any rate, the answer is correct.
Build 7) 4 barracks MM + ghost emp response: spread your sentries out, and target fire the ghost if you can
Also don't rely on Sentries too much, keep one of them back for Guardian Shield and build more Zealot/Stalker. To be honest I have no idea why anyone would get 4 rax ghost from one base though, it seems to come quite late and you can't support 4 rax.
Canceling the expo is something that I don't like to do. Against most delayed one base pushes you will get contained while the Terran expands, and you will have to rely on Warp Prism shenanigans to come back into the game. This especially holds truth against tanks. The attacks also come late enough for your expansion to already have paid for itself. As I already mentioned, the important part is to cut probes in time.
The only allin that ever made me cancel my expansion was pure Marines with Stim (easily scoutable because T pulls out of gas) on Xel Naga Caverns. I don't think anybody actually does this, but the correct response here is holding the ramp with Force Fields while getting Colossi.
I looked through my replay folder, but it seems that the majority of my last games were against P and Z. And the saved replays are all losses, non of them against a particular T allin though iirc.
Would be awesome if people submitted replays for these to get a general idea of how to execute it all. I've been looking everywhere for replays of Toss beating Terran one-base all-ins, but there are so goddamn many
Hey, so I am a 3,6k points masterleague toss and my counters look a bit different for reasons that I will explain now
Quote: Build 1) Two starports with tech lab and barracks pumping marines response: What you want are a lot of Zealots, a healthy amount of Sentries and some Stalkers. Get the phoenices as late as possible, it is enough to have one or two sweeping in after you took care or the Marines. As long as your Gateway army is big enough, you should be able to hold. "
My Counter:
Even though I've never seen two starports on one base, because it's way too costy gas wise, I would counter as follows: I would totally expand very early with 2 gate robo (observer needed against possible banshee harass) and then you are bound to add 4 more gates and only build stalkers and 1-2 sentry for guardian shield.
The next thing you need is blink, which should be done when he walks out (about 10th minute or so I assume). He most likely won't have a lot of medivacs, so every stim hurts him a lot. when he walks out you can try to snipe single air units or force a stim and when he finally reaches your base, he will be damaged enough that 1 wave of zealots (6) should tank enough while the stalker do the rest. And even if he manages to make you pull back and kill your expansion, you are way more mobile and will eventually pick out every unit he has.
Quote:
Build 2) One starport with tech lab, barracks with tech lab, factory with reactor response: You probably mean Raven/Banshee/Siege tanks/Marine. What really helps is to engage him somewhere in the middle of the map to slow down his advance, and he might even drop the pdd if you are lucky. The longer you hold him off, the longer you are mining from 2 bases while he is mining from one with possibly scvs pulled.
If he sieges up somewhere outside your natural, you will have troubles holding it off. Very important is a good unit spread so you don't eat too much tank damage, send one Zealot in front to eat the first volley. Also, don't panic when he sieges up in front of your natural and starts shelling your nexus with one tank. As long as your mineral line is safe, your Nexus has enough HP and your production facilities stay unharmed you can afford to mass a few more units, possibly attacking when he tries to leapfrog forward too fast.
Phoenices are even more useful in this scenario as they can both lift tanks and combat banshees, and you probably will have time to get out a few of them. Warp Prisms can either drop Immortals/Zealots on his tanks if you want to feel like a pro, or mess up his main a fair bit.
My Counter: Well, you probably don't mean factory with reactor, because that would mean hellions and that is kinda inefficient at one base at that strategy. So I assume Raven Banshee siege tanks marines as well.
What you shouldn't do is expand, because right before your expansion would pay off, he will attack it and you never have enough units to keep your expansion alive.
The best thing to do is stay one base and tech colossi. You are not in need of range, which is very gas costy on one base anyways. So what you want is 1-2 sentry for guardian shield and chronoboost colossi all the time. Combined with some stalker and a lot of zealots (which not only are good damage-tanks, but fit into your gas heavy build) you are fine. It's important to spread your units when he trys to march up your ramp you can attack him from different angles. Marines die so fast vs colossi and he will never have as many tanks as he needs to kill every unit instantly. He will only have like 2-3 tanks and like 2 banshee + raven. It's crucial that you keep your observer alive somehow, because if he sees he loses all forces he will snipe your observer and turn invisible on and then you will be in trouble.
Focus the banshees with your sentries and stalkers and march forward with your zealots and colossi in order to kill the tanks (focus with colossi on long marine lines or big marine clusters).
Quote:
Build 4) Thor + banshee + marines (I don't know the number of buildings, but this build is easily scouted)
My Counter:
Blink stalker are indeed not bad, I personally would play a lot of stalker and some immortals and abuse the range and the speed of the stalkers in order to damage his units before he arrives at your base. 1-2 Sentry for guardian shields are crucial and forcefields. Unlike colossi, thors are not able to walk over marines. That's why you can forcefield behind the thors when he marches up your ramp, in order to kill the forcefields ne needs to walk over them with thors, but marines are blocking him, so that gives you a good advantage.
I hope my counters sound reasonable to you guys, don't want to end up in a theorycraft battle because I don't have any replays saved :D
just played vs a thor raven marine push and wanted to share the replay with you.
first i saw 2 baracks and thought of some kind of cheesy early push, coz no gas, so i went for fast stalkers. then i transitioned into colossi, bcoz i saw many marines and took my expansion, because it could be possible that he went for no gas fast expansion. he could cut of all my scouting information to his base, so i was completely blind.
when i saw the thors i added some immortals and gave up my expansion, because i knew i could follow up with ranged-colossi harass, which i could execute well and took of 12 kills with my colossus. afterwards i retook my expansion, because i knew he wont allin the game and rather expand. a healthy mix of zealot stalker colossi and immortal could make me win the battles and utilizing a warpprism weakened his economy
Just a few questions: 1. Which All in do you find the most effective/hardest to defend ? 2. If a terran does not wall - is there anything you do to take advantage of this? Are there any common pushes or strats P do (aside from 4 gate - which the response would be 2 bunkers or 1?)
The new thing seems to be 3 rax MM + raven, then switch the starport to reactor and pump vikings. I think its extremelly strong. anybody has played agaisnt this ?
EPT
