I'm sorry, I'm not going myself to do the compilation, but I just would like to initiate a discussion about all of them.
I basically lose a lot vs a lot of variants of terran one base all-ins including banshees and raven, and I'm really tired of it. I think I don't respond correctly, so what I would like to compile in this thread is a list of all variants and the correct answer from the Protoss. I think that the variants should be distinguished by the buildings in the terran base, as it pretty well indicate what is coming out.
I will start my list with some cases:
Build 1) Two starports with tech lab and barracks pumping marines
Response A: What you want are a lot of Zealots, a healthy amount of Sentries and some Stalkers. Get the phoenices as late as possible, it is enough to have one or two sweeping in after you took care or the Marines. As long as your Gateway army is big enough, you should be able to hold.
Response B (from 3600 Master Player Farmerz): Even though I've never seen two starports on one base, because it's way too costy gas wise, I would counter as follows: I would totally expand very early with 2 gate robo (observer needed against possible banshee harass) and then you are bound to add 4 more gates and only build stalkers and 1-2 sentry for guardian shield.
The next thing you need is blink, which should be done when he walks out (about 10th minute or so I assume). He most likely won't have a lot of medivacs, so every stim hurts him a lot. when he walks out you can try to snipe single air units or force a stim and when he finally reaches your base, he will be damaged enough that 1 wave of zealots (6) should tank enough while the stalker do the rest. And even if he manages to make you pull back and kill your expansion, you are way more mobile and will eventually pick out every unit he has.
Build 2) One starport with tech lab, barracks with tech lab, factory with techlab
Response A: You probably mean Raven/Banshee/Siege tanks/Marine. What really helps is to engage him somewhere in the middle of the map to slow down his advance, and he might even drop the pdd if you are lucky. The longer you hold him off, the longer you are mining from 2 bases while he is mining from one with possibly scvs pulled.
If he sieges up somewhere outside your natural, you will have troubles holding it off. Very important is a good unit spread so you don't eat too much tank damage, send one Zealot in front to eat the first volley. Also, don't panic when he sieges up in front of your natural and starts shelling your nexus with one tank. As long as your mineral line is safe, your Nexus has enough HP and your production facilities stay unharmed you can afford to mass a few more units, possibly attacking when he tries to leapfrog forward too fast.
Phoenices are even more useful in this scenario as they can both lift tanks and combat banshees, and you probably will have time to get out a few of them. Warp Prisms can either drop Immortals/Zealots on his tanks if you want to feel like a pro, or mess up his main a fair bit.
Response B (from 3600 Master Player Farmerz): What you shouldn't do is expand, because right before your expansion would pay off, he will attack it and you never have enough units to keep your expansion alive.
The best thing to do is stay one base and tech colossi. You are not in need of range, which is very gas costy on one base anyways. So what you want is 1-2 sentry for guardian shield and chronoboost colossi all the time. Combined with some stalker and a lot of zealots (which not only are good damage-tanks, but fit into your gas heavy build) you are fine. It's important to spread your units when he trys to march up your ramp you can attack him from different angles. Marines die so fast vs colossi and he will never have as many tanks as he needs to kill every unit instantly. He will only have like 2-3 tanks and like 2 banshee + raven. It's crucial that you keep your observer alive somehow, because if he sees he loses all forces he will snipe your observer and turn invisible on and then you will be in trouble.
Focus the banshees with your sentries and stalkers and march forward with your zealots and colossi in order to kill the tanks (focus with colossi on long marine lines or big marine clusters).
Response: Ever since the targeting AI was patched, you can hold this off with nearly everything. Don't invest in more Sentries (one for guardian shield is enough), just build Zealot/Stalker/Immortal. Kill the scvs with your Zealots which don't bug out anymore, and focus down the thors with the rest.
Build 4) Thor + banshee + marines (I don't know the number of buildings, but this build is easily scouted) + Show Spoiler +
Response (from 3600 Master Player Farmerz): Blink stalker are indeed not bad, I personally would play a lot of stalker and some immortals and abuse the range and the speed of the stalkers in order to damage his units before he arrives at your base. 1-2 Sentry for guardian shields are crucial and forcefields. Unlike colossi, thors are not able to walk over marines. That's why you can forcefield behind the thors when he marches up your ramp, in order to kill the forcefields ne needs to walk over them with thors, but marines are blocking him, so that gives you a good advantage. Replay: http://rapidshare.com/files/448909343/thor_push.SC2Replay
Build 5) proxy 4 barracks pure marines + scv rush (scouting trigger => no 2nd gas at proper timing) + Show Spoiler +
Response: make a 2nd gate and get lots of stalkers out asap
Response: spread your sentries out, and target fire the ghost if you can
I would really like to make this list exhaustive, I'm sure I forgot a lot of these builds even if I lose to them everytime. I will try to keep the thread up to date, including your replies!
Thank you very much,
Michele
Edit: New all-in added. Could you please post your level as well? Just to be informed for which play level the response works, no elitism
Edit: Artosis' guide about stopping terran all-in. I don't like this guide, it doesn't really explain how to stop the all-ins, just how to scout them.
Edit: Added very nice contribution by Farmerz, a top Master Player, and his first replay.
Build 5) proxy 4 barracks pure marines + scv rush (scouting trigger => no 2nd gas at proper timing) response: make a 2nd gate and get lots of stalkers out asap
Build 6) 4 barracks stimmed MM response: need to force field well, if you went 1 gate expand, u need to micro well and pull probes (but it's gonna be really difficult)
Build 7) 4 barracks MM + ghost emp response: spread your sentries out, and target fire the ghost if you can
I used to have a ton of trouble with the later T 1-base pushes. Will it be marine raven banshee? Thors? I was trying to guess what was coming, but by the time I`d get an observer into their base it was too late to react. So I now base my build on if T walls or not. If they wall in, I suspect 1-base and 1-base back with 3 gate stargate. Even if they`re going MM behind the wall this push is extemely effective, since a VR charging on the wall is brutal. If they don`t wall, it`s almost 100% going to be some kind of MM play and you have the freedom to play normally.
Fast 2 thor push is normally countered by engaging the enemy on the ramp/ having lots of zealots.
Void rays pretty much hard counter it as well. Immortals are much harder as strike cannons mess up your day.
For build 1 I would say blink stalkers possibly. Depends on how many bases he is doing that. Also it should have a pretty large timing window where you should be able to kill/ really damage him.
For build 4 I would say that zealot/void rays should be able to handle it without to much difficulty but you could also go pheonix/ immortal and if he strike cannons the immortals you can griviton them up and cancel the attack and earn extra baller points.
You do seem to be missing a few like the numerous polt timing attacks (raven+banshee+mmm/m and tanks/ etc etc) and marine tank all in.
On February 17 2011 06:41 HellsHeaven wrote: For build 3
Fast 2 thor push is normally countered by engaging the enemy on the ramp/ having lots of zealots.
Void rays pretty much hard counter it as well. Immortals are much harder as strike cannons mess up your day.
For build 1 I would say blink stalkers possibly. Depends on how many bases he is doing that. Also it should have a pretty large timing window where you should be able to kill/ really damage him.
For build 4 I would say that zealot/void rays should be able to handle it without to much difficulty but you could also go pheonix/ immortal and if he strike cannons the immortals you can griviton them up and cancel the attack and earn extra baller points.
You do seem to be missing a few like the numerous polt timing attacks (raven+banshee+mmm/m and tanks/ etc etc) and marine tank all in.
Otherwise it could be a really useful post.
Thank you! Yes, I miss a lot of builds, even if I lose to those: could you please be more precise about the composition of the ones you listed? That's the aim of the thread!
About the counter, I would maybe like to see opinions from more players, and maybe supported by replays?
All my answers are based on the assumption that you intend to expand after 1-3 production structures.
On February 17 2011 05:10 Entropia wrote: Build 1) Two starports with tech lab and barracks pumping marines response: Stargate // Robotic bay. Phoenix and Colossi. Am I right? It is mostly as an example, I'm too low (Diamond player) to tell what really is good.
Colossi as response to an 1 Base Play is a bad choice most of the times. Reason is it simply takes to much time and opportunity costs to get them (as response!) The first Colossus with Range takes at least 130sec (depending on CB) and 775/600 Ressources (considering you already got the robo) to get and in most cases, your opponents all in hits before you can get a 2nd one (which binds another 375/200 for at least 38sec). Much better choice may be Armor Zealot/Sentry composition, supported by a few Phoenixes and observers. Naked marines get obliterated by Zealot/Sentry. If he delays his push for Stim and/or Combat shield get +1 Armor. Use Forcefields to either block marines during stim or prevent them from kiting/shooting your Phoenixes. Make sure you have enough room to bring all your zealots to combat at once.
On February 17 2011 05:10 Entropia wrote: Build 2) One starport with tech lab, barracks with tech lab, factory with reactor
Did you mess up something? That would be Banshee/Raven, Marauder, Helion. If thats the case: Voidrays -> Free win. More likely might be 1 Raven, Banshees, Tank, Marine. In that case: again mainly Zealot/Sentry + few Phoenix + Obs + Immo (depends on how long he delays his push in favor of more Units; 1 Immo per 2 Tanks might be enough. get +1 Armor aswell as soon as your eco kicks in). Fight away from your expansion to make him waste PDD in the open, then retreat covered by FF if possible to fight him again at your Natural. If he retreats instead you are ahead 2 Base against 1 Base. If he commits without PDD, you have an advantage at defending.
On February 17 2011 05:10 Entropia wrote: Build 3) Fast 2 Thor push with SCV response: 3 gate stargate?
Voidrays + Immo + Zealots (in that order) + 1 Sentry for GS. Spread Voids out to avoid splash. If it appears that you cant kill Thors retreat your Voids and go for Base Race.
On February 17 2011 05:10 Entropia wrote: Build 4) Thor + banshee + marines (I don't know the number of buildings, but this build is easily scouted) response: blink stalkers?
Stalkers dont cut it. TBM has insane DPS and Insane HP (due to Thor Repair). You need the same to combat that. Zealot/Sentry + Voidray + Obs. Maybe a Phoenixes if he goes for some banshee harassment before. Just 1-2 Sentries for Guardian Shield (mainly for Immo/Voids). Get +1 Airattack if he delays his push in Favor of more Units and/or any kind of Armory Upgrade. Fight in the open field to make sure your zealots can attack at once. Focusfire Thors with Immo/Void, Zealots simply autoattack. Your goal is to burst down Thors against repair and let Zealots shred down whatever marines are in front of thors to protect your Immos and Voids against Marine-Snipes. Key to this is have a lot of costefficient stuff rather than cute tech.
In every case: If you already expanded as you notice what he is doing, either strongly consider pulling probes to make sure you crush his 1 Base Push or cut them in order to sustain more unit production. Dont cancel that Expansion if he is not immediatly rushing towards you with MM (tech-openings need a while to get all their stuff up). A Nexus provides 10 Supply therefore its opportunity costs drop to 275 as soon as it finishes and decrease further the more of its CB you use on your production structures due to saving of additional structures. If he SCV All-in definitly pull at least as much worker as he did.
~ 2600 Diamond, cant provide replays did not ladder since Masters due to exams :>
Thank you Xanatoss, I think that now we should discuss with some replays, as the advices are starting to be different. I see that basically everytime u add a stargate! Do you cancel the expo upon scouting the all-in?
I forgot to link the video of Artosis about it also. I add it to the OP.
barracks with reactor, factory with techlab, starport with techlab -> mass marines + raven+ tanks with siege+banshees (sometimes with cloak but mostly not)+3/4 of his scvs
I lost so many times to this build, especially in close positions. I don't really know what to do..
Ravens nullify your stalkers, you can't snipe the raven with phoenixs because they melt to marines. Immortals against tanks does work, but they just die to the marines shortly after-> usually before the tanks are all down. Voidrays die to the marines, Colossi are not an option because by the time the push comes you have like one without range and 4 gateway units. Cannons are also not an option because they get outranged by siege tanks.35 You can't really delay the push with sentrys: If you ff your ramp, the terran just sieges below and uses the raven/ banshees for sight.
Incontrol just played against this very thing on his stream and got smashed, so it does seem more than a low level problem ( I am around 3k Diamond)
I will assume a normal 2Gate Robo expo, but anything works. One thing that is important if you scout the Terran being on one base for a long time is that you will have to cut probes at some point, or you will experience the same death of greed like many Zergs do. 38 or 41 are good numbers for that (32 on minerals, 6/9 on gas)
Build 1) Two starports with tech lab and barracks pumping marines response: Stargate // Robotic bay. Phoenix and Colossi. Am I right? It is mostly as an example, I'm too low (Diamond player) to tell what really is good.
Colossi come too late if you try to expand and get phoenices at the same time. What you want are a lot of Zealots, a healthy amount of Sentries and some Stalkers. Get the phoenices as late as possible, it is enough to have one or two sweeping in after you took care or the Marines. As long as your Gateway army is big enough, you should be able to hold.
Build 2) One starport with tech lab, barracks with tech lab, factory with reactor
You probably mean Raven/Banshee/Siege tanks/Marine. What really helps is to engage him somewhere in the middle of the map to slow down his advance, and he might even drop the pdd if you are lucky. The longer you hold him off, the longer you are mining from 2 bases while he is mining from one with possibly scvs pulled.
If he sieges up somewhere outside your natural, you will have troubles holding it off. Very important is a good unit spread so you don't eat too much tank damage, send one Zealot in front to eat the first volley. Also, don't panic when he sieges up in front of your natural and starts shelling your nexus with one tank. As long as your mineral line is safe, your Nexus has enough HP and your production facilities stay unharmed you can afford to mass a few more units, possibly attacking when he tries to leapfrog forward too fast.
Phoenices are even more useful in this scenario as they can both lift tanks and combat banshees, and you probably will have time to get out a few of them. Warp Prisms can either drop Immortals/Zealots on his tanks if you want to feel like a pro, or mess up his main a fair bit.
Build 3) Fast 2 Thor push with SCV response: 3 gate stargate?
Ever since the targeting AI was patched, you can hold this off with nearly everything. Don't invest in more Sentries (one for guardian shield is enough), just build Zealot/Stalker/Immortal. Kill the scvs with your Zealots which don't bug out anymore, and focus down the thors with the rest.
Build 4) Thor + banshee + marines (I don't know the number of buildings, but this build is easily scouted) response: blink stalkers?
Never seen this anywhere, but I don't think the Terran can actually get this fast enough to become dangerous. Blink Stalkers look useful, as well as Void Rays. Simply having enough stuff should work as this looks inferior to the Raven/Banshee/Tank/Marine push, just don't get phoenices,
Build 5) proxy 4 barracks pure marines + scv rush (scouting trigger => no 2nd gas at proper timing) response: make a 2nd gate and get lots of stalkers out asap
Yes, getting up more gates asap and chronoboosting units out is the way to go. I prefer going Stalker/Sentry to slice off around a third of his Marines, and then adding Zealots later so that the Marines which are on the other side of the forcefield have nothing to shoot at.
Build 6) 4 barracks stimmed MM response: need to force field well, if you went 1 gate expand, u need to micro well and pull probes (but it's gonna be really difficult)
I thought it was 3 rax stim which was more common. At any rate, the answer is correct.
Build 7) 4 barracks MM + ghost emp response: spread your sentries out, and target fire the ghost if you can
Also don't rely on Sentries too much, keep one of them back for Guardian Shield and build more Zealot/Stalker. To be honest I have no idea why anyone would get 4 rax ghost from one base though, it seems to come quite late and you can't support 4 rax.
Canceling the expo is something that I don't like to do. Against most delayed one base pushes you will get contained while the Terran expands, and you will have to rely on Warp Prism shenanigans to come back into the game. This especially holds truth against tanks. The attacks also come late enough for your expansion to already have paid for itself. As I already mentioned, the important part is to cut probes in time.
The only allin that ever made me cancel my expansion was pure Marines with Stim (easily scoutable because T pulls out of gas) on Xel Naga Caverns. I don't think anybody actually does this, but the correct response here is holding the ramp with Force Fields while getting Colossi.
I looked through my replay folder, but it seems that the majority of my last games were against P and Z. And the saved replays are all losses, non of them against a particular T allin though iirc.
Would be awesome if people submitted replays for these to get a general idea of how to execute it all. I've been looking everywhere for replays of Toss beating Terran one-base all-ins, but there are so goddamn many
Hey, so I am a 3,6k points masterleague toss and my counters look a bit different for reasons that I will explain now
Quote: Build 1) Two starports with tech lab and barracks pumping marines response: What you want are a lot of Zealots, a healthy amount of Sentries and some Stalkers. Get the phoenices as late as possible, it is enough to have one or two sweeping in after you took care or the Marines. As long as your Gateway army is big enough, you should be able to hold. "
My Counter:
Even though I've never seen two starports on one base, because it's way too costy gas wise, I would counter as follows: I would totally expand very early with 2 gate robo (observer needed against possible banshee harass) and then you are bound to add 4 more gates and only build stalkers and 1-2 sentry for guardian shield.
The next thing you need is blink, which should be done when he walks out (about 10th minute or so I assume). He most likely won't have a lot of medivacs, so every stim hurts him a lot. when he walks out you can try to snipe single air units or force a stim and when he finally reaches your base, he will be damaged enough that 1 wave of zealots (6) should tank enough while the stalker do the rest. And even if he manages to make you pull back and kill your expansion, you are way more mobile and will eventually pick out every unit he has.
Quote:
Build 2) One starport with tech lab, barracks with tech lab, factory with reactor response: You probably mean Raven/Banshee/Siege tanks/Marine. What really helps is to engage him somewhere in the middle of the map to slow down his advance, and he might even drop the pdd if you are lucky. The longer you hold him off, the longer you are mining from 2 bases while he is mining from one with possibly scvs pulled.
If he sieges up somewhere outside your natural, you will have troubles holding it off. Very important is a good unit spread so you don't eat too much tank damage, send one Zealot in front to eat the first volley. Also, don't panic when he sieges up in front of your natural and starts shelling your nexus with one tank. As long as your mineral line is safe, your Nexus has enough HP and your production facilities stay unharmed you can afford to mass a few more units, possibly attacking when he tries to leapfrog forward too fast.
Phoenices are even more useful in this scenario as they can both lift tanks and combat banshees, and you probably will have time to get out a few of them. Warp Prisms can either drop Immortals/Zealots on his tanks if you want to feel like a pro, or mess up his main a fair bit.
My Counter: Well, you probably don't mean factory with reactor, because that would mean hellions and that is kinda inefficient at one base at that strategy. So I assume Raven Banshee siege tanks marines as well.
What you shouldn't do is expand, because right before your expansion would pay off, he will attack it and you never have enough units to keep your expansion alive.
The best thing to do is stay one base and tech colossi. You are not in need of range, which is very gas costy on one base anyways. So what you want is 1-2 sentry for guardian shield and chronoboost colossi all the time. Combined with some stalker and a lot of zealots (which not only are good damage-tanks, but fit into your gas heavy build) you are fine. It's important to spread your units when he trys to march up your ramp you can attack him from different angles. Marines die so fast vs colossi and he will never have as many tanks as he needs to kill every unit instantly. He will only have like 2-3 tanks and like 2 banshee + raven. It's crucial that you keep your observer alive somehow, because if he sees he loses all forces he will snipe your observer and turn invisible on and then you will be in trouble.
Focus the banshees with your sentries and stalkers and march forward with your zealots and colossi in order to kill the tanks (focus with colossi on long marine lines or big marine clusters).
Quote:
Build 4) Thor + banshee + marines (I don't know the number of buildings, but this build is easily scouted)
My Counter:
Blink stalker are indeed not bad, I personally would play a lot of stalker and some immortals and abuse the range and the speed of the stalkers in order to damage his units before he arrives at your base. 1-2 Sentry for guardian shields are crucial and forcefields. Unlike colossi, thors are not able to walk over marines. That's why you can forcefield behind the thors when he marches up your ramp, in order to kill the forcefields ne needs to walk over them with thors, but marines are blocking him, so that gives you a good advantage.
I hope my counters sound reasonable to you guys, don't want to end up in a theorycraft battle because I don't have any replays saved :D
just played vs a thor raven marine push and wanted to share the replay with you.
first i saw 2 baracks and thought of some kind of cheesy early push, coz no gas, so i went for fast stalkers. then i transitioned into colossi, bcoz i saw many marines and took my expansion, because it could be possible that he went for no gas fast expansion. he could cut of all my scouting information to his base, so i was completely blind.
when i saw the thors i added some immortals and gave up my expansion, because i knew i could follow up with ranged-colossi harass, which i could execute well and took of 12 kills with my colossus. afterwards i retook my expansion, because i knew he wont allin the game and rather expand. a healthy mix of zealot stalker colossi and immortal could make me win the battles and utilizing a warpprism weakened his economy
Just a few questions: 1. Which All in do you find the most effective/hardest to defend ? 2. If a terran does not wall - is there anything you do to take advantage of this? Are there any common pushes or strats P do (aside from 4 gate - which the response would be 2 bunkers or 1?)
The new thing seems to be 3 rax MM + raven, then switch the starport to reactor and pump vikings. I think its extremelly strong. anybody has played agaisnt this ?
wow i was about to open a thread about ALL-IN 1BASE TERRAN but u come ahead, well thanks i dont know if Terran is a joke race or the player, because whats the point praying to do 1base and hoping that ur attack work?
I finnish watching all Games from Hasuobs vs T in Lastest TSLQuali, he does very well vs 1base allins WOW 9games were allins from T 1base terran doesnt requires any skill, just do 2-3barrack, 1port, 1factory and cut scv arround 30-38
I think most of this all in can be stopped if we Protosses cut probes as well at good time and just mass speedlots with 2-3sentries, inmortal and phoenix, i think stalkers are useless vs all this variations
I would like to see responses from Tyler, Cruncher, Kiwikaki, Nani, Hasuobs, Mana, iNcontroL
Build 4) Thor + banshee + marines (I don't know the number of buildings, but this build is easily scouted)
If you call a 3 base 20 min push all-in, then have fun.
Redicoules how toss players just call every strategy terran does "all in" cuz he brought a couple of SCVs
And for the Raven banshees push, its better to focus on sentries then on stalkers as sentires doesnt influenced by pdd.
Coming from a terran... lol man, The op is talking about 1base Thor + banshee + marines that Most of the Terran do with 1 or 2 Thor and this comes arround 8minutes mark and yes its 1BASE
There seriously needs to be a topic for protoss like this also. I get 1 based all ined so much. 3 gate star/robo/4 gate, etc :/ Driving me nuts. Somebody willing to do? Where is the 3 rax build btw.
The hardcounter to the 2 Thor all-in (or semi all-in) is actually going DTs right away (was also pointed out by Artosis quite a while ago). When the push is coming too early for you, you can always do hit&run with your stalkers from the flanks to stop him from going straight to your base. The most important thing then is, to not send all your DTs at once, just one at a time. If you have the minerals and the warpgate cooldown its also very nice to send one DT of the 1st wave into your opponents base. However, NEVER ever make immortals! Strike cannons > Immortals.
Everything except 5 (which hits way before) can be stopped with 1gate fe into mass gateway units and a quick +1 armour. With a stargate against a 2 port build.
On March 02 2011 05:43 moonylo wrote: The hardcounter to the 2 Thor all-in (or semi all-in) is actually going DTs right away (was also pointed out by Artosis quite a while ago). When the push is coming too early for you, you can always do hit&run with your stalkers from the flanks to stop him from going straight to your base. The most important thing then is, to not send all your DTs at once, just one at a time. If you have the minerals and the warpgate cooldown its also very nice to send one DT of the 1st wave into your opponents base. However, NEVER ever make immortals! Strike cannons > Immortals.
Assuming you don't have maphack so you can choose to go DTs, immortals in #'s greater than the thors so they don't all get strike cannon'd are pretty good. Regardless, strike cannon'ing your immortals makes the thors not attack your gateway units which really isn't that bad and the immortal will get a minimum of 2 shots off against a strike cannon'ing thor which is well worth it.
Is this theorycrafting or have you actually tried it against a half decent terran? I see the problem with your argumentation as follows: If the immortal gets two shots of on the thor means you're focusing the thor, thus making the repair of the pulled SCVs very strong and letting the marines stay alive, which also deal quite some damage. If you're not a 100% sure, that you can snipe off a thor really really fast, this is really risky. Because if it just takes a little bit too long, you're dead.
Of course the DT approach means, that you have to know, that the thors are coming. When u get quite a fast observer (after 1 or 2 gates) you normally have enough time to get a DT shrine up in time. However its very very close, when you're spawning close on Metalopolis for example. You really have to buy some time with your stalkers then. But its possible.
On March 02 2011 07:36 moonylo wrote: Is this theorycrafting or have you actually tried it against a half decent terran? I see the problem with your argumentation as follows: If the immortal gets two shots of on the thor means you're focusing the thor, thus making the repair of the pulled SCVs very strong and letting the marines stay alive, which also deal quite some damage. If you're not a 100% sure, that you can snipe off a thor really really fast, this is really risky. Because if it just takes a little bit too long, you're dead.
Of course the DT approach means, that you have to know, that the thors are coming. When u get quite a fast observer (after 1 or 2 gates) you normally have enough time to get a DT shrine up in time. However its very very close, when you're spawning close on Metalopolis for example. You really have to buy some time with your stalkers then. But its possible.
You definately don't have to time to 2 gate robo obs scout -> DT's against a thor rush
And yes i've tried it against terrans and defended it perfectly fine with mass gateway + immortals and +1 armour.
With zealots killing scvs really quickly now its not really a big problem. Its worth noting that I do throw down a stargate after my robo against a 1 base terran because it deals well with pretty much everyall tech based all in they can do
Sorry to bump this thread but this is very important thread, why there arent many answers, im here waiting for those Strategicall spotlighted to post something here
On March 02 2011 04:10 2GRe-Play- wrote: wow i was about to open a thread about ALL-IN 1BASE TERRAN but u come ahead, well thanks i dont know if Terran is a joke race or the player, because whats the point praying to do 1base and hoping that ur attack work?
I finnish watching all Games from Hasuobs vs T in Lastest TSLQuali, he does very well vs 1base allins WOW 9games were allins from T 1base terran doesnt requires any skill, just do 2-3barrack, 1port, 1factory and cut scv arround 30-38
I think most of this all in can be stopped if we Protosses cut probes as well at good time and just mass speedlots with 2-3sentries, inmortal and phoenix, i think stalkers are useless vs all this variations
I would like to see responses from Tyler, Cruncher, Kiwikaki, Nani, Hasuobs, Mana, iNcontroL
I think many protoss players confuse all-ins with timing attacks. 1-base-timing-attacks are not all-in but rather the correct response to an FE. In the PvT matchup, it's also the only viable way to open with anything except bio. It's not all-in if you just attack, don't pull svcs and expand behind your push - why should it be.
Sure there are those builds that are all-in and where you pull half/all your scvs withthe push - but not every terran who doesn't fe plays all-in ! If blizzard intended for everyone to play fe, they could have just made you start with 2 bases.
I'm seriously sick of getting flamed or bm'd on ladder as an all-in player when i'm just playing mech with a late expand while i deny my opponents fe advantage through eco harass.
The correct term for _most_ of the builds described here is timing push, not all-in attack.
Also, you might want to add to the compilation - my favourite - marine/hellion/banshee with a pair of tanks, a raven and a ghost. Very micro intensive (the comment about terrans a-moving to victory made me laugh) but also quite deadly when done right. Transition is mech based play with mostly tank/hellion/thor and a few vikings and ghosts.
On March 02 2011 04:10 2GRe-Play- wrote: wow i was about to open a thread about ALL-IN 1BASE TERRAN but u come ahead, well thanks i dont know if Terran is a joke race or the player, because whats the point praying to do 1base and hoping that ur attack work?
I finnish watching all Games from Hasuobs vs T in Lastest TSLQuali, he does very well vs 1base allins WOW 9games were allins from T 1base terran doesnt requires any skill, just do 2-3barrack, 1port, 1factory and cut scv arround 30-38
I think most of this all in can be stopped if we Protosses cut probes as well at good time and just mass speedlots with 2-3sentries, inmortal and phoenix, i think stalkers are useless vs all this variations
I would like to see responses from Tyler, Cruncher, Kiwikaki, Nani, Hasuobs, Mana, iNcontroL
I think many protoss players confuse all-ins with timing attacks. 1-base-timing-attacks are not all-in but rather the correct response to an FE. In the PvT matchup, it's also the only viable way to open with anything except bio. It's not all-in if you just attack, don't pull svcs and expand behind your push - why should it be.
Sure there are those builds that are all-in and where you pull half/all your scvs withthe push - but not every terran who doesn't fe plays all-in ! If blizzard intended for everyone to play fe, they could have just made you start with 2 bases.
I'm seriously sick of getting flamed or bm'd on ladder as an all-in player when i'm just playing mech with a late expand while i deny my opponents fe advantage through eco harass.
The correct term for _most_ of the builds described here is timing push, not all-in attack.
Also, you might want to add to the compilation - my favourite - marine/hellion/banshee with a pair of tanks, a raven and a ghost. Very micro intensive (the comment about terrans a-moving to victory made me laugh) but also quite deadly when done right. Transition is mech based play with mostly tank/hellion/thor and a few vikings and ghosts.
lol, Man did u Read our own post? those attack are all-in because u are getting every unit from 1 base, dont come here telling me that this is the responses of P FE because is not, u know for sure that P need that Expo because 1base toss Sucks, and while im getting Probes, Pylons, Nexus, u just cutting SCV and doing ur Tipical 1base play called timming attack WTF...
u Get flamed because u just play 1base 1,201,021,650UNIT A-MOVE
BUT THAT PART OF THE GAME, i know i have to learn how to counter that and guess what? when toss have the right responses to all this !@##$% terran do u will start playing world of warcraft again...
On March 02 2011 04:10 2GRe-Play- wrote: wow i was about to open a thread about ALL-IN 1BASE TERRAN but u come ahead, well thanks i dont know if Terran is a joke race or the player, because whats the point praying to do 1base and hoping that ur attack work?
I finnish watching all Games from Hasuobs vs T in Lastest TSLQuali, he does very well vs 1base allins WOW 9games were allins from T 1base terran doesnt requires any skill, just do 2-3barrack, 1port, 1factory and cut scv arround 30-38
I think most of this all in can be stopped if we Protosses cut probes as well at good time and just mass speedlots with 2-3sentries, inmortal and phoenix, i think stalkers are useless vs all this variations
I would like to see responses from Tyler, Cruncher, Kiwikaki, Nani, Hasuobs, Mana, iNcontroL
I think many protoss players confuse all-ins with timing attacks. 1-base-timing-attacks are not all-in but rather the correct response to an FE. In the PvT matchup, it's also the only viable way to open with anything except bio. It's not all-in if you just attack, don't pull svcs and expand behind your push - why should it be.
Lurk, your post is kind and not BM at all, but it is not relevant for the thread itself.
All the builds I described are all in, you stay on one base for a lot and everytime I beat the push I easily crush the expo behind.
Let's keep the discussion open to the counters, and not on definitions all-in vs timing pushes.
On March 02 2011 04:10 2GRe-Play- wrote: wow i was about to open a thread about ALL-IN 1BASE TERRAN but u come ahead, well thanks i dont know if Terran is a joke race or the player, because whats the point praying to do 1base and hoping that ur attack work?
I finnish watching all Games from Hasuobs vs T in Lastest TSLQuali, he does very well vs 1base allins WOW 9games were allins from T 1base terran doesnt requires any skill, just do 2-3barrack, 1port, 1factory and cut scv arround 30-38
I think most of this all in can be stopped if we Protosses cut probes as well at good time and just mass speedlots with 2-3sentries, inmortal and phoenix, i think stalkers are useless vs all this variations
I would like to see responses from Tyler, Cruncher, Kiwikaki, Nani, Hasuobs, Mana, iNcontroL
Could you send me the replays/VODs? I would like to watch the games and then improve the first page of the thread.
And please, be manner and don't say that T doesn't require skills, zerg has got 6 pool, speedling + roach pushes, and toss has proxy gateway, cannon rush and 4 warpgate (even if this is easily stoppable as it is very popular). Every race can be played like a noob
wow i was about to open a thread about ALL-IN 1BASE TERRAN but u come ahead, well thanks i dont know if Terran is a joke race or the player, because whats the point praying to do 1base and hoping that ur attack work?
I finnish watching all Games from Hasuobs vs T in Lastest TSLQuali, he does very well vs 1base allins WOW 9games were allins from T 1base terran doesnt requires any skill, just do 2-3barrack, 1port, 1factory and cut scv arround 30-38
I think most of this all in can be stopped if we Protosses cut probes as well at good time and just mass speedlots with 2-3sentries, inmortal and phoenix, i think stalkers are useless vs all this variations
I would like to see responses from Tyler, Cruncher, Kiwikaki, Nani, Hasuobs, Mana, iNcontroL
Could you send me the replays/VODs? I would like to watch the games and then improve the first page of the thread.
And please, be manner and don't say that T doesn't require skills, zerg has got 6 pool, speedling + roach pushes, and toss has proxy gateway, cannon rush and 4 warpgate (even if this is easily stoppable as it is very popular). Every race can be played like a noob
Im Terran and I have a few matchs against inControl on ladder where he demolishes it LOL...will upload it when I get the chance.
In my experience though, i'd suggest protoss to scout base with early phonix, any sort of timing push comes much earlier then the time you get a phonix out
It's impossible to make a list like this. The response required from protoss after going gate->robo->2 gates->nexus or gate->nexus->2 more gates+robo or 2 gate->nexus->robo, etc. are all different.
You can't hold a strong marine+scv+tank all-in with the gate->robo->2 more gates->nexus without cancelling or sacrificing the nexus, but if you do either of the other two builds, it's a joke to hold, since your extra economy from the expansion has kicked in far earlier.
Similarly, if you do 1 gate->nexus, you have to respond to any marine+scv all-in or early marine/marauder scv all-in by sacrificing the expansion and force fielding the ramp, whereas if you do gate->robo->2 more gates you just LOL at them for trying to all-in you.
Make it look like you're going to Fast Expo. As soon as the 15 rax is done, it should be between (3:50-4:30) you should be rallying your marines to the watch tower(s). Pull 10-11 SCV's and deny his scouting with your marines. Make sure he doesn't see you pulling those SCVs. Hit with SCV's taking the damage, I like to turn half of them on auto-repair. They should have only a zealot & stalker by the time you reach their base. Make sure to kill theirs pylons. Most of the time, you can get them to GG but if not, they had to pull probes to hold off the attack. So even if it fails, you should be on even footing. I usually just go 3Rax with two of them pumping Rauders and 1 pumping Marines. Poke and push, and make sure to use those mules! Try to expand when he doesn't expect it. You should win easily.
Edit: Sorry its no so clear, it was written in a rush.
i think some of the answers are just horrible, for example siegemarineravenbanshee push "you dont want to expand". Its autolose if you get contained
The best thing to do is stay one base and tech colossi. You are not in need of range, which is very gas costy on one base anyways. So what you want is 1-2 sentry for guardian shield and chronoboost colossi all the time. Combined with some stalker and a lot of zealots (which not only are good damage-tanks, but fit into your gas heavy build) you are fine. It's important to spread your units when he trys to march up your ramp you can attack him from different angles. Marines die so fast vs colossi and he will never have as many tanks as he needs to kill every unit instantly. He will only have like 2-3 tanks and like 2 banshee + raven. It's crucial that you keep your observer alive somehow, because if he sees he loses all forces he will snipe your observer and turn invisible on and then you will be in trouble.
Thats so wrong reaction, do you ever win with that? Siegetanks destroys your colossus without range so eaaasily. he can put siegetanks under your ramp/cliff and get vision with banshees and FORCE YOU TO ATTACK, and im sure you will lose most of the time.And tunr invisible on? Do you know how much gas does banshees, siegetanks, siege mode and raven cost? im pretty sure banshees never has cloak there.
Against two starport banshees you really need phoenixes since stalkers arent cost effective counter to them.
Against siegemarineravenbanshee push you want mainly zealot sentry immortals and FLANK IS IMPORTANT, you cant win without flanking since you cant go straight to attack siegetanks when there are marines and some scv's between your army and siegetanks. So when you flank with half army coming from behind straight to siege tanks you win easily. And its important to let immortals take first hits from tanks and focus fire tanks with immortals.
Against 2 thor, voidrays are best counter.
Against all 4 barracks strats colossus with range and forcefields is best counter.
This seems to be a very popular strat by Terrans on the ladder right now. The first 4 Terrans I played pretty much all 1 based me 3-4 Rax, with Marines and Mauraders with no support. As far as the Thor rush all in, if you scout it early and can get an immortal or 2 out, man they just tear up Thors. Just make sure other units are "tanking"
MM I've been having trouble with terran all ins. Specially the 1 base 2 starport banshee all in. I tried mass gateway, etc. Thanks for the insight. Also, I believe you can get colossus to stop 2 starport banshee if I remember correctly. Colossus will just eat the marines which saves most of your Stalkers for killing the banshees. But obviously the gas is a little hard to manage. Maybe if you were already opening colossus or you were preparing to go down the path that the later counter might be more efficient.
The build I am currently having trouble with, are heavy MM play, but with a heavier weight on Marauders.
If I scout this early enough, I can get voidrays and immortals out, but with the marine element, it feels like something is missing. especially if they add in vikings.
Chargelots weren't doing me well enough, either.
This may be an issue of mechanics and execution, will include replays if requested.
You should check out the Huk vs MMA match in the up and down matches. MMA goes for that build and huk BARELY holds it. I htink this build is too strong against protoss, I have huge trouble holding it myself.
On May 13 2011 01:16 lyrlian wrote: You should check out the Huk vs MMA match in the up and down matches. MMA goes for that build and huk BARELY holds it. I htink this build is too strong against protoss, I have huge trouble holding it myself.
Here are my thoughts about that game - I did not really like some of the decisions that both players made. Yes I know I'm being critical of GSL players but still...
MMA: 1. Siege timing was off, then sieged at a really bad time/place in the first major battle. Unsieged tanks actually do a lot of DPS, either fight with them unsieged or get your siege in time to siege right outside natural the first time... 2. Should have pulled more scvs. Especially with those close positions, if you're going to all-in you might as well bring all your SCVs. Just a-move into the natural and start making 3 bunkers. The battles were really close, had MMA just pulled more SCVs he would have easily come out on top.
HuK: 1. Scouts tank, yet cannons both mineral lines asap? I've never seen anyone go cloaked banshees following tanks, and even if MMA was up to that kind of trickery HuK did not need those cannons that fast. That's an extra 300 minerals at least that could have been spent on extra units to hold off the initial push. 2. Too many stalkers! Having a few stalkers is necessary but you never want to be fighting marine/tank (or any other terran composition early game other than pure marines) with only stalkers...
On May 13 2011 01:27 Anihc wrote: 2. Too many stalkers! Having a few stalkers is necessary but you never want to be fighting marine/tank (or any other terran composition early game other than pure marines) with only stalkers...
Well xiaot did the same to hold MKP's allin. It does seem to be the best way. Zealots just die so so fast to pure marine, they're more of a marauder tank. Sentries don't help other than for GS so a couple sentries, and the rest immortal/stalker does seem best.
EPT
