EPT[G] 2 gateway 1 stargate PvP Phoenix build - Page 2
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OwlFeet
75 Posts
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Methy
United Kingdom74 Posts
Given how easy a 4gate build is, and how precise you have to be with this build to simply not die instantly, I suspect the build gets better the higher up in player skill you go. Simply put, I suspect that a game between two proffesional players would lead to this build having a higher win rate than what I get with it... but I still suspect the 4 gate will win most games. Ideally I would love that to be tested because, who knows? Maybe it can deflect 4gates almost every time. If it does that would be brilliant, but I am not skilled enough as a player to test it myself. Until then this build is simply an interesting, fun to play, approach to PvP. Hell even the games I lose I feel happier about since the burden is on MY game play, it's not a simple mass unit vs mass unit battle, it is my mistakes that ultimately define the games, if I lose I can *ALWAYS* highlight a single key mistake that lost the game for me, and work to improve on it. | ||
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Methy
United Kingdom74 Posts
On February 15 2011 08:06 OwlFeet wrote: Didn't Tyler give up on early phoenix because it can't punish an early expand. Possibly, but with all the scouting information you get you can expand at the same time. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) Tyler mostly played around with 2stargate builds back with the old phoenix build time. With the new build time, a single stargate with chronoboosts gets you enough phoenixes fast enough to be effective, without being at all overly commited to phoenixes. Hell scouting an early expo you could probably chronoboost out a voidray or two, bank on the fact that he will have fewer stalkers due to an early expo, lift up a fair number of his stalkers and laugh as your voidrays crush through. This is not a scenario I have tested at all, but it could potentially work out. Failing that, there is nothing about this build stopping you from expanding as well, you're not cutting probes, you're not committed to dealing damage with phoenixes, and phoenixes are a highly effective addition to your army. That being said I've learnt the hard way not to be too greedy while harassing his mineral line. I've lost a few games because I took down a few too many probes, only to have my phoenixes out of energy during some key battle, and getting steam rolled. In the large army limit phoenixes are great, since ground units struggle for pathing, and phoenixes can be VERY selective about where they deal their damage. | ||
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Methy
United Kingdom74 Posts
It shows how the games can play out. It's not simply a 'oh if he builds a pylon near your ramp you're dead,' The enemy busting your ramp will kill you off, guaranteed, but games really aren't that binary, there are lots of things you can do to pull a win. Never underestimate the utility of 4 sentries against an army that has none... | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
Don't give up on phoenixes though, because they certainly are still viable in mid-late game PvP. Just don't try to rush to them too fast. The most success with phoenixes that I see involve a traditional 3 gate into robo, followed by stargate for phoenix/immortal play. | ||
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Methy
United Kingdom74 Posts
On February 15 2011 08:25 Anihc wrote: You will not stop a good 4 gate with only 2 gates, period. Well I've done all I can to convince you, might I suggest you at least give it a try though. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
to late warp ins, to late push. just ask yourself how do you deal with 5 Stalker 1 Zealot @ 5:45 with pylon going up at your ramp for additional 4 Zealots coming 32s later, you won't out dps a Pylon with a single sentry. he didn't get a pylon up which of course made you held it with mostly 1 forcefields down your ramp but you can't count in highlevel play on that. as long as the warp-in bug doesn't get fixed this won't work, you just don't how enough forcefields of 2 Gates. again, no problem going stargate, only surviving the critical path. thats why i say, transition into it after defending a 4 gate (or when you see him doing something else of course) | ||
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sAfuRos
United States743 Posts
Bottom of ramp = warp above ff Middle of ramp = warp above ff Top of ramp = warp onto high ground tl;dr - no Edit: and for reference if you want to play me and demonstrate just how it IS possible to hold a 4 warpgate indefinitely with 4 sentries, i wouild gladly. I will literally just go 4 warpgate, not push until you tell me you have 4 sentries, and then we'll just see if can't get up that ramp in about 30 seconds. Edit 2: For reference, i'm 3000 masters, which is what i consider mid-masters, and i used to play phoenix openers exclusively since about 3 weeks after release, and hovered at rank ~250 NA for a long time. After people discovered the trick of pylon warping up, the three different stargate builds i used in pvp were all rendered useless, despite anything i tried. I mean, thats not to say i clearly did everything ever possible to stop it, but from my 2-3 months of PvP phoenix play i thought i had the build down but for me it turned out to simply be impossible. | ||
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Methy
United Kingdom74 Posts
On February 15 2011 08:30 freetgy wrote: that 4 gate wasn't done well enough to late warp ins, to late push. just ask yourself how do you deal with 5 Stalker 1 Zealot @ 5:45 with pylon going up at your ramp for additional 4 Zealots coming 32s later, you won't out dps a Pylon with a single sentry. I completely agree, he didn't pull it off that well, but then I screwed up as well, I was over 400 minerals at 5:45. But none the less at 5:45 I had 2 sentries at my ramp, and 2 more seconds away from completing, and warpgate research was also seconds away from completing (the timing is such that it finishes at almost the same time as the 3rd and 4th sentries.) That's *WHY* this timing works, I can forcefield the bottom of the ramp immediately, and see what he's planning. I can choose what to warp in with my first gateway round, and can cut my first phoenix and chronoboost my gateways if necessary. at 5:45 I immediately throw down a forcefield. at roughly 5:55 I have 4 sentries and at roughly 6 minutes I can use my first warp in. Bear in mind my first sentry has enough energy for 2 FF and my second is getting there. If I see the proxy pylon I can either warp in 2 stalkers, or warp in a sentry and a zealot, or warp in a sentry, wait a bit, and warp in a satlker. A forcefield at the top and bottom of the ramp when I see the zealots warping in means that I can pick off 4 free zealots *without his stalkers being able to attack me* I clearly have the energy to keep the top and bottom forcefielded to kill off those 4 without taking damaging, and bear in mind that sentries put out 6 dps, where stalkers put out 6.9 vs light, so sentries are actually almost as effective at killing off those zealots. After that I'll have a phoenix or two out, and while it is probably his army will bust the ramp, would you tell me what 5 stalkers 1 zealot + 4 warp ins is going to do against 5 sentries 1 stalker, 1-2 phoenixes and 2-3 warp ins, when I can quite capably block off around half of his army. As I've been saying over and over, it is *tough,* I lose many games outright, but I have pulled it off several times. At least try it out before flatly stating it is impossible. | ||
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sAfuRos
United States743 Posts
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Methy
United Kingdom74 Posts
On February 15 2011 08:36 sAfuRos wrote: i used to play phoenix openers exclusively since about 3 weeks after release, and hovered at rank ~250 NA for a long time. After people discovered the trick of pylon warping up, the three different stargate builds i used in pvp were all rendered useless, despite anything i tried. Have you taken into account how quick phoenixes build now? Shortly after release phoenixes couldn't even attack on the move. A lot has changed, give it another go. | ||
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Methy
United Kingdom74 Posts
On February 15 2011 08:47 sAfuRos wrote: Lol just real quick. Sentries blow against zealots. Stalkers are fine because they can kite, and have more health. Sentries cannot, and therefore you cannot outmicro zealots or even come close to doing so. In a sentry vs zealot battle, zealot wins. In fact, in a zealot vs sentry and stalker, you will still lose the sentry unless you literally just run the sentry and he chases it indefinitely, and that would only work if there were no other units other than the zealot Zealots stuck between two forcefields suck against sentries, just for the record. | ||
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sAfuRos
United States743 Posts
On February 15 2011 08:48 Methy wrote: Have you taken into account how quick phoenixes build now? Shortly after release phoenixes couldn't even attack on the move. A lot has changed, give it another go. Yes. The speed at which i can build phoenix' does not affect the fact that my ramp is still vulnerable to 4 warpgates. Plus, more phoenix = less gateway units. So pretty much the trade-off is null, and the problem with 4 warpgating still, well, going up the ramp, is there let me put it to you this way. If it was really possible to just hold your ramp indefinitely, why don't people do 1 gate robo builds. or 2 gate robo builds, or 3 gate robo builds versus a 1 gas open? Because its ****ing impossible to hold the ramp. And with robo builds you have more gas for sentries, cause the robo is less. Again, no. If this is working for you, than fantastic. It will not work as you start to play better people. Period. Edit: Oh, and i mean this won't work against 4 warpgate. Phoenix builds are still viable vs tech builds. | ||
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Methy
United Kingdom74 Posts
On February 15 2011 08:50 sAfuRos wrote: Again, no. If this is working for you, than fantastic. It will not work as you start to play better people. Period. Funny since I'm at pretty much the same rating as you, and having moderate success with it (again my PvP win loss is now probably below 50%, but at least I'm enjoying it) But your argument amounts to nothing more than the word 'no,' which is fine, if you don't want to try it don't, I'm not at any point thinking that 4gating will go away, nor does this build have a significant advantage over 4gate plays. I am, however, looking for useful feedback to perhaps iron out the build further, because I do not enjoy 4gating at all. Saying 'no it can't be done' is hardly useful without an actual attempt, so I won't be responding to anymore of your posts. Also, please just take it easy, you're getting very aggressive with little reason, I'm not in anyway disagreeing with you that a solid 4gate push is almost impossible to hold off, but every player makes mistakes, and if you can capitalise on one you're good to go. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
but if he manages a decent 4 gate, can you hold? at least 1 replay that shows you holding such an attack would improve this strategy alot. on the otherside if this was viable, 2 Gate DTs would work even better as a counter to 4 Gates. again same problem = holding the ramp. what bugs me, does a lift of Unit give vision? | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13410 Posts
Ehit: a replay where the pylon finishes being built for example a double pylon at the ramp. since the pylon being killed will just be cancelled and rebuilt at that point by a good protoss player | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
Force fields last 15 seconds each, not 30. Thus, two sentries will keep you alive for 30 seconds at most. What do you do against blink builds? Korean 4 gate all-in? | ||
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Methy
United Kingdom74 Posts
On February 15 2011 09:03 freetgy wrote: again, i have no problem believing it is viable, versus a 4 gate without warp-in on your ramp; so is every other build that revolves around 2 gates. but if he manages a decent 4 gate, can you hold? at least 1 replay that shows you holding such an attack would improve this alot. I'll definitely get right on that, but essentially, this build is the fastest way I could develop to get 4 sentries out quickly, which most other 2 gate builds do not, also bear in mind that a 4gate will break your ramp at some point, but that a phoenix 2gate composition from a superior economy can dispatch a 4gate army, given that your stargate comes online shortly after the 4gate rush you're just wanting to delay the army until your tech can really kick in, which is really not *that* far behind a 4gate push. They have to seriously cut their eco to get an early 4gate rush, hence every second that passes you get stronger, doing everything to stall them can buy you enough time for this to matter. As demonstrated phoenixes are brutally effective against zealots and sentries, and can be selective in their targeting. Unfortunately I can only test this against players of my level, I am genuinely wanting higher level players to try it out decently, not just try it once, fail and give up. If the build fails, then it fails, and I'm ok with it, if the build ends up weak against 4gate builds, but still managable, then perfect, I'm happy with that, this is nothing more than a play style I have been using for a few weeks that I really enjoy, despite it's short comings. I will post more replays as and when I play them, it's just that this PvP was the only one on my recent replay list (apart from one where I got proxy gated on steppes) and I hadn't planned on formalising the build at all. | ||
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Legion.217
28 Posts
While defending myself, i actually expanded at the same time (kept pushing him further and further back, he kept trying to push me) due to extra minerals. I did find that at the point where i had 5 phoenix out, i ran out of energy on them from lifting and i was chronoing the crap out of my stargate to get the next one out. The lifts are so key, so important, and its important not too use too many lifts at once. What i found super effective was actually lifting/sniping the zealots/ sentries out of his army. The zeals and sentries die so flippin fast, and it makes your opponent either hold their ground with their stalkers and get beaten on by your zealots, or retreat and lose their zeals/sentries. Either way, attacking after 3-4 warp in cycles becomes impractical. We both transitioned into 2 base builds, he got blink and i got charge + a robo for obs in case of DT, while continuing to make lots of zeals, a few sentries, void rays, and phoenix. Once the Void Rays came into play I tried to focus on picking up the anti air, and letting my zeals deal with his etc. It makes the fight rather prolonged, and the void rays get ample time to charge up. And once they are, the stalkers just get mowed over and your opponent is left with no anti air, meaning you basically win by default. Over all, I am very impressed with just how well this build worked. | ||
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BertiliO
Sweden134 Posts
I have tried some 1 base semi all-ins against this, like 3gate void ray and 1 base colossus and it haven't been that succesful. Edit: Some people here claims that a 4 gate will crush this. I have to disagree, I've tried 4 gate with limited success. Although I'm just a diamond level player so my 4-gates might not be up to par with the one of a Master level player. | ||
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