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Introduction
Hello all. I was inspired by iEchoic's revolution in TvT and decided to lay out a build I have been using in PvP ever since the build time on Phoenixes was decreased. After years of pleasure derived from team liquid, this will be my first real contribution.
PvP is an incredibly boring matchup, the vast majority of games end up as a 4gate vs 4gate where a single ill-positioned stalker can cost you the game. Beyond this, the game transitions into a rush to a critical mass of colossi, where colossus numbers and positioning reign supreme. Both of these 'standard' PvP games are incredibly boring to watch and play.
Because of my hate for the colossus, and my love of the phoenix I have always been determined to make use of the phoenix in every matchup. The results of my efforts in pvp is a 2 gateway 1 stargate build that aims to hold off a 4gate rush and obtain an economic victory, or punish a player attempting to rush to a colossus.
Disclaimer
+ Show Spoiler +I am a mid-level Master's league player, and my ambition has been to break into the top 200, and while I've come close, I've never managed it. As such I am not an amazing player, I feel I have a very good understanding of the game, but lack the coordination to pull it off. Because of this I have not been able to test this build at the absolute highest levels of gameplay, but I suspect the strategy will be more viable as the skill of the player increases, as it requires a high degree of multitasking
Furthermore, this build relies on forcefields to block off any sight of your base's high ground, and while the build order provides the sentries, this is still a difficult task. As such, I still lose approximately 40% of my PvP games outright due to a single misplaced forcefield or slow reaction. It is also near impossible to pull off on Scrap Station due to the wide ramp size, and maps with back entraces (Jungle Basin, Delta Quadrant) make it slightly more complex (walling off the back entrance with buildings is recommended)
General Goals
Split according to the most common PvP scenarios: 4 gate pushes, and robo-colossi builds.
The build has the following aims:
Against 4 gate
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- Hold off any 4gate push without cutting probes.
-Secure an economic advantage against 4 gate builds through constant probe production and phoenix harass
- Force the opponents army to cluster up by picking off lone units with phoenixes, and pin him in his own base by harassing the probe line whilst securing further economic advantages.
Against 2gate robo / 3gate robo and other colossus builds
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-Phoenix harass keeps the opponents army in his base early and allows easy scouting of colossus timing
-Phoenixes are faster to tech to, allowing a push before a colossus is built
-Robo builds often depend on immortals early to deflect aggression which are exceedingly vulnerable to phoenixes, similarly sentries are almost entirely nullified by phoenixes as they can be picked off before a battle starts with relative ease.
-Succesful colossus production still allows for easy void ray production. Since colossi reduce the number of stalkers in an army due to gas requirements, it is a very common situation to have enough phoenixes out to lift up every single enemy stalker, allowing voidrays to quickly decimate the colossi (Note colossi are unable to escape from void rays, as both move at the same speed, 2.25, and can path over cliffs.)
The Build Order
The build is timed out to provide 4 sentries fast enough to block off any 4gate rush (see replay 1) before quickly getting out several phoenixes. It oppens assuming a 4 gate rush, and can be modified for faster phoenixes upon succesful scouting of another strategy.
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9 pylon
10 Chronoboost 2 x probes
13 Gateway
14 Assimilator*(see note)
15 chronoboost 2 x probes
16 pylon
Keep up constant probe production without further chrono boosts from this point
@100%gateway, Cybernetics Core
@75 minerals immediate second gas (~18 supply)
@100 minerals Zealot + chronoboost it out**(see note)
@100% cyber core, Warp gate research + chronoboost it out
@100% Zealot, Sentry + chronoboost it out
-If scouting revealed a 4 gate strategy (Indicators: single gas after ~20 probes, very high energy count on the nexus, 10 gateway [compare his gateway timing to yours to determine this])
Chronoboost out a second sentry and get a second gateway as soon as possible. Order 2 more sentries from your 2 gateways and chronoboost where possible, your 4th sentry should finish shortly after warp gate research. Get a stargate as soon as you have 150 gas after ordering your 4th sentry.
-If scouting revealed a build other than 4 gate
Sentries can be cut and the second gateway delayed for a faster stargate.
*Note: Delay your second nexus Chronoboost, this is done to allow a slightly earlier assimilator as the build is gas heavy.
**Note: This build is timed out such that if it is done perfectly your zealot finishes 3-4 seconds after your cybernetics core, and literally AS you get 100 gas for your sentry. Chronoboosting this zealot allows the earlier sentry, whilst still providing a zealot.
Since you will not get out a stalker, and since sentries are slower than workers, you should try to micro the zealot to pick off the enemy's scout. This is unlikely but can happen.
Why it works
Holding 4gate
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-Even against fast warp gate rushes, such as a 10gate 1 gas perma-chronoboosted research 4gate build, you have 2 (or at least very nearly) sentries out when the push occurs, A chronoboosted sentry takes approximately 30 seconds to build, and you have 2 forcefields available to use, each lasting 30 seconds, hence the timings are tight, but with practice it can be accomplished.
-4 sentries are enough to permanently forcefield a ramp, FF costs 50 energy and lasts 15 seconds, hence 3 sentries are enough to FF a ramp for a very long time if the sentries start with lots of energy (or if you can buy 5 seconds inbetween forcefields). 4 sentries allows for completely permanent FFs.
-Correct forcefield placement (at the very bottom of the ramp) denies sight ontop of a ramp, preventing units from being warped in on your high ground at all.
-Any tech to flying units (such as robo for observers / hallucination) to allow sight up the ramp delays the push significantly, and as only 4 units can be warped in at a time in your base, and your ramp will still be perma forcefielded, your army will be enough to crush the 4 units warped in quickly.
-Teching to blink stalkers is an extreme delay, and correct forcefield placement will still deny the majority of blink stalker plays.
The Phoenix
+ Show Spoiler +-Phoenixes are light units, and as such stalkers do not get a damage bonus against them. A phoenix costs 25 minerals and 50 gas more than a stalker, and has 120hp and 60 shields. Stalkers have 80 hp and 80 shields Maths + Show Spoiler +Accounting for the fact that gas is slightly more valuable, you can roughly equate 3 stalkers to 2 phoenixes in terms of cost. (250 total cost for phoenix, 175 for a stalker. 250/175 = 1.43, and 3*175 = 525, 2*250 = 500, ie the extra 25 total resource cost accounts for the fact that gas is more valuable)
Stalkers deal 10 damage to a phoenix, requiring 18 shots to kill one.
Stalkers deal 14 damage to other stalkers, requiring 12 shots to kill one.
Accounting for the 3:2 ratio, stalkers need 36 shots to kill 3 stalkers, and 36 shots to kill 2 phoenixes. Hence phoenixes are just as cost effective as stalkers in terms of soaking up damage from enemy stalkers and assuming sentry dps to be negligible this is the only unit your enemy posses that can destroy phoenixes- By being selective about which targets your phoenixes attack, ie light units, you can make use of the phoenixes (frankly insane) 16 dps (18 damage in a 1.11 second cooldown) Stalkers by comparison deal 9.8 dps to armoured targets, and cannot be as selective in their targetting (dropping to 6.8 dps against light targets). In the 3:2 ratio this still leaves phoenixes at 16 dps vs 14.7 of stalkers. (Note that phoenixes 'true' dps will be lower, due to the fact that at least one phoenix cannot be firing at the same time) -Phoenixes become more effective in larger numbers, as the disadvantages brought about by at least one phoenix being unable to fire while lifting becomes negligible. Furthermore space becomes an issue for large groups of ground units, with the possibility of stalkers being unable to fire, this does not pose a problem to phoenixes. -Phoenixes give a great deal of map control, and provide essentially unlimited scouting of the enemies base due to their unmatched speed. Phoenix harassing is extremly effective, even more so than mutalisk harassing due to the nature of shield regen. Where a mutalisk requires a long time (or a transfuse) to heal, essentially meaning that every point of damage taken by a mutalisk is a cost, phoenix shields regen to full extremely quickly. Hence as long as care is taken to not lose the shields on a phoenix, harassing is almost costless, as stray stalker shots (even from blink stalkers) are often not enough (even with focus firing) to deal sever HP damage to a phoenix. - Phoenixes exploit a weakness in protoss ground armies It is a nice symmetry that the units phoenixes kill quickly, zealots and sentries, are much slower than the only units that can significantly damage the phoenix, stalkers. As any army moves out stalkers will naturally tend to pull ahead of the rest of the army. With the scouting power phoenixes give, it is a fairly simple task to swing around behind the stalkers and kill of sentries and zealots. This forces the enemy into the micro intensive task of keeping his entire army in a tight cluster, and allows for VERY easy picking off of any stray units. -Constant forcefielding of the ramp + harassing of the enemy mineral line keeps the enemy's army in his own base. -Robo builds generally depend on immortals for defense before a colossus can be produced. Since phoenixes are a faster tech, and provide complete scouting of the enemy base, a push shortly after completion of the enemy robo bay, combined with phoenixes lifting up all enemy immortals and low sentry count (due to high gas requirements of the colossus) generally produce an easy victory. -Phoenixes bypass all forcefield stalls by harassing the mineral line, requiring stalkers to be pulled back, sentries at the ramp can then be picked off by the much faster phoenixes. Essentially, if the enemy pulls his entire army back to the mineral line, you can bust up the ramp, if he separates stalkers from sentries to cover both the mineral line and the ramp, his sentries die, and if he's placed cannons in his mineral line to prevent both he has wasted a great deal of money in stopping your harass, and so cannot attack you, allowing you to expand and win that way.
The Magic Number 5
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-Phoenixes usefullness increases dramatically once 5 are on the field. It requires 4 Phoenix shots to kill a sentry, and 8 to kill a zealot. Hence a group of 5 phoenixes can 1shot a sentry (provided no guardian shield is up) and 2 shot a zealot.
-In general I only stop phoenix production after 10 phoenixes, allowing 2 groups of 5 on two separate hotkeys to patrol the map independantly. This requires a huge amount of multitasking, and since I'm not a capable enough player to pull it off without slipping up (though I would love to see it in the hands of a proffesional) I have found that even at my level it is worth splitting them into two groups, Scouting the map extremely effectively to pick of anything that can be picked off.
This coincides nicely with the time you need to start void ray production to deal with mass colossus transitions.
Late Game enemy colossus balls
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-Dealing with mass colossus balls relies on void rays, but if you fail to kill the enemy before his colossus get out, immediately start void ray production. Instead of lifting single sentries and zealots in a straight up fight, instead lift as many stalkers as you can, using every last phoenix. Get your voidrays to focus down the colossi before cleaning up the stalkers, Phoenix voidray compositions are EXTREMELY effective against colossus balls
-The immobility of colossus balls can be exploited in the same way Terran do: focusing on highly mobile Guerilla tactics.
Other (Enemy) Transitions
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-The only other transitions the enemy can make is are to:
Dark Templar: Scouting from phoenixes provides plenty of time to get a robo + observer out
High Templar: extremely ineffective as storm is wasted on phoenixes, and feedback can be negated by spam lifting units to keep energy low. (I have never been able to test this scenario as it has never happened to me, esentially because it is such a poor choice)
Stargate: This is now playing your game, and essentially just becomes a resource war (Again I have never been able to test this scenario)
-Blink Stalkers (see note below)
-Mass Gateway Units with upgrades
This is the trickiest response to deal with, if your enemy ignores the colossi all together. At some point you will have to expand, so forcefielding the ramp can not be counted on forever. Furthermore your ground army is substantially weaker. The only way of dealing with this approach is to harass well enough for an economic lead, picking of zealots and stalkers where possible. Then, when a fight occurs, immediately use phoenixes to take out enemy sentries. Without Guardian Shield and Force Field your army can win through good forcefield placement of your own.
Furthermore, zealots are easy pickings for your phoenixes, allowing your own stalkers to target enemy stalkers. Furthermore, while phoenixes prevent large stalker counts, you do still end up with an approximately 3:1 split of zealots to stalkers.
While ordinarily your zealot-heavy army could kited by enemy stalkers, note that phoenixes prevent this to some degree. By lifting off 1-2 stalkers and marching your zealots forward, enemy stalkers must either stand their ground and tank damage from the zealots (your sentry advantage helps with this) or retreat and give up the stalkers that are lifted.
As such, when played correctly phoenixes are an amazing addition to your ground army, and can dismantle much larger ground armies.
Notes on Blink Stalkers
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*Note* I have not had many encounters with blink stalkers on the ladder, but on the 2-3 occasions that I did I was surprised at how well phoenixes dealt with them, I was expecting blink stalkers to dominate phoenixes.
However:
-Stalkers are much slower than phoenixes, even with blink, and deal very little damage to phoenixes. This combined with quick shield regen means that running away from blink stalkers usually results in very little damage taken.
-Phoenixes actually serve to counteract some of the mobility of blink stalkers. As above, by lifting 1-2 stalkers, and marching zealots forward, stalkers can be individually picked off by your own phoenixes / stalkers.
Alas:
-A large army of pure blink stalkers becomes almost impossible to deal with, void rays are a bad transition because of how well blink stalkers kill them off.
-Blink stalkers overcome the disadvantages of ground units in large numbers, making the stalkers more effective in a large ball than phoenixes, they also bypass most forcefield plays.
Way out:
-The only solution to this I have found is to tech to blink stalkers of your own, cut phoenix production and use the phoenixes you have to harass. Try to deal enough damage so that you can catch up in the blink stalker game.
-As a generally rule, try to kill off an enemy protoss before he can amass a huge blink stalker ball.
Replays
+ Show Spoiler +*Note* while I have been playing this build for a while, I only had the idea to create a guide after iEchoic's TvT build was published. After looking through the temporary replay history, I could only find one decent example. As such I will link two replays now, and as my laddering produces more games I'll edit them in later. Replay 1: Custom game against a computer only, this is simply to demonstrate the opening and how the timings work out so neatly. vs Computer, only for demonstration of the opening timings.Replay 2: Example of holding 4gate aggression. Note that I make several mistakes (build order mistakes, macro slips horribly during the initial 4gate push, phoenix control was terrible) And still pull out a win. This is simply because 4gate transitions so horribly. Upon scouting robo bay I even begin to get voidrays, but he skips out on colossus all together, when it comes to the final battle my micro was again terrible, but none of it matters due to the large lead 2gate 1stargate holding 4gate
Final Note
Again I'm not at the highest level of game play, but my intuition tells me that the build will be stronger the better the player is. I would very much appreciate it if a master level protoss player would like to help me iron out the build more, as I have only used it with laddering so far.
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Interesting. Could be viable with the two very early sentries to Force Field the ramp. I also love Phoenix play, so I'm definately going to try this out. I am not able to watch replays atm, but I will do that aswell.
Great post, yet again hoping for a revolution in PvP that might end the 4gating
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the reason why this doesn't work is that you can warp onto the ramp with a pylon and with the warpin get vision for more warpins into the base.
which makes you need 2 forcefields to block the ramp, which you shouldn't be able to sustain with 2 gates Stargate.
but a stargatebuild transition of a defensive economic 3/4 warpgate seems alot more viable imho.
defend the potential 4 gate, get phoenix asap scout his transition.
if he one bases you are in a great position with phoenix, against any roboplay.
if he doesn't robo get, Dts 
you should be able to expand, a colossus push can be defend with phoenix!
on ground you should be able to hold your self with 3 gates in unit production.
since supporting a 4 gate without fighting is i think impossible with 20 probes.
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I'll save all of my pvp games over the next few weeks and upload some better replays.
Unfortunately I had way more success when I used to just 4gate, but the majority of my losses are simply from a slow reaction to his army charging my ramp, or a misplaced forcefield. I almost always win if I can hold the ramp. But I almost always win if I can hold the ramp, and at least have fun doing it.
Alternatively if some better protoss players are willing to try the build out and send me replays I'll edit those into the original post. I think that would be ideal tbh, as I'm very curious as to how it plays out at the ultra-high levels.
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On February 15 2011 07:09 Methy wrote:
I'll save all of my pvp games over the next few weeks and upload some better replays.
Unfortunately I had way more success when I used to just 4gate, but the majority of my losses are simply from a slow reaction to his army charging my ramp, or a misplaced forcefield. I almost always win if I can hold the ramp. But I almost always win if I can hold the ramp, and at least have fun doing it.
Alternatively if some better protoss players are willing to try the build out and send me replays I'll edit those into the original post. I think that would be ideal tbh, as I'm very curious as to how it plays out at the ultra-high levels.
Need to get Liquid Tyler to dust off his Phoenix build boots. I remember an old Day9 daily that just went over Tyler's Phoenix build it was really impressive. Though it has a pretty high fail rate do to close rush distances and the popularity of 4 gating. Though I think the Protoss players of the world are tired of the 4 gate and want to expand their play. Thanks for posting I will def like to try this out myself.
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I hope this can really work out in high levels, it would be refreshing
I do feel sentries are too gimmicky to try and stay alive due to forcefields only, i don't want to put myself in a position where a misclick instantly loses me the game.
If your opponent takes advantage of the newly lowered research time of hallucinate, you may be in for trouble as he will then be able to see up your ramp and warp in. And seeing that your army composition is mostly sentry at that point, consider yourself dead. Opening stargate blind is a bit risky as you may lose to DT without detection.
I think adding a forge to this BO can really help you out quite a bit; you can get detection and an added defense for the (most likely) incoming 4g - seeing as you are making lots of sentries you should have lots of spare minerals.
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On February 15 2011 07:06 freetgy wrote:
the reason why this doesn't work is that you can warp onto with a pylon the ramp then warp in the base since you get vision after the warpin. and this kills the strategy.
which makes you need 2 forcefields to block the ramp, which you shouldn't be able to sustain with 2 gates Stargate.
Actually it generally does.
Firstly, most players don't actually place the pylon so it's field covers the ramp, it just covers a tiny amount of the highground near the ramp.The time spent rebuilding a pylon closer buys you a lot of time to get some more units out.
Then, he can only generally fit 2 units on the ramp, getting an extra sentry is probably worthwhile, but you can literally throw one forcefield at the top and bottom. of the ramp, and kill the units on the ramp, preserving line of sight, if he keeps doing it, he's wasting resources, and you can let some of his army up the ramp before blocking off the rest and cleaning up what's on top of your ramp with the help of a phoenix or two.
At the end of the day, the 4 unit warp in onto your high ground to get line of sight is *only* effective when those 4 units are a significant part of your army (read in the first 1-2 warp-in cycles) Delaying this at all with forcefields right at the bottom of the ramp buys you enough time to get enough units out to simply crush any 4 unit warp-in while maintaining ff at the bottom of the ramp.
Bear in mind that FF has a long enough range that sentries can FF without being shot by stalkers at the bottom. It's not easy, and it requires a lot of intense micro, but it can be done.
As I said in my original post, I still lose about 40% of all my PvPs instantly, just through failing to hold the ramp. My overall PvP winrate with this build is probably below 50%, but I simply don't have the coordination and skill to properly forcefield my ramp. I *STILL* prefer playing this way, despite the fact that I'd be better off with a simple 4 gate.
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On February 15 2011 07:19 Comprissent wrote:
If your opponent takes advantage of the newly lowered research time of hallucinate.
I did address hallucinate in the original post. Bear in mind that a 4gate rush simply doesn't have the gas available to spend on a) many sentries and b) a blind hallucinate research. If they've gone for an ultra fast 4 gate (the most deadly kind) they will have 1 gas and 0 sentries when they push.
You're talking about a delay to get a sentry out, the *80* second research on hallucinate, which is 53 seconds even when perma-chronoboosted. And all of this only after they've seen the forcefield strat.
You will have enough of an army at this point to deflect high ground warpins with ease, nevermind that you will have phoenixes out to quickly snipe the hallucination.
At some point you do have to deal with a 4gate army, the idea is to stall until your superior economy and tech kicks in
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The reason why this doesn't work is that you can warp onto with a pylon the ramp then warp in the base since you get vision after the warpin. and this kills the strategy.
which makes you need 2 forcefields to block the ramp, which you shouldn't be able to sustain with 2 gates Stargate.
You can place a ff perfectly-they cant warp in to get sight up the ramp AND they cant poke up the ramp with main force and get vision of your high ground. You only need 1 ff.
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If high lever players start posting replays I bet everyone will become more excited. The build looks fun, spam clicking phoenixes around the map is the greatest.
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to stop a 4 gates, you need 2 FFs at the ramp to stop zealots wrap in, not 1.
this build is really good but the fact that you cannot stop 4 gates with it make it completely useless
if you still think you only need 1 ff, test it out on step! you always can wrap a zealot in some where in middle of the ramp to get sight high ground
^this all has been confirmed from all top high level players so dont try to deny it
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On February 15 2011 07:29 thrawn2112 wrote:
If high lever players start posting replays I bet everyone will become more excited. The build looks fun, spam clicking phoenixes around the map is the greatest.
Yeah that would be ideal. But I really appreciate all input, I am determined to find a way to make phoenixes work in PvP, even if it's not a particularly succesful laddering strategy.
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On February 15 2011 07:32 NB wrote:
to stop a 4 gates, you need 2 FFs at the ramp to stop zealots wrap in, not 1.
this build is really good but the fact that you cannot stop 4 gates with it make it completely useless
I've already addressed this. I'm not denying you will have to deal with a 4gate army at some point, but the crucial thing is the timing. Any delays to a 4gate rush and it becomes significantly weaker, in the large army limit phoenixes turn out to be more effective than straight gateway units (at least in every experience of it I have had), the idea is to stall until you get them out.
and bear in mind 4-5 phoenixes are often enough, you must bear in mind that while delaying his push, you can be fly about with phoenixes, and pick off sentries and zealots with ease. Stalkers just don't kill phoenixes quick enough, or move quick enough to ward them off. If his stalkers are surrounding the ramp in an attempt to get vision and snipe something, circle round behind them and pick off a zealot. Pick off the probe building proxy pylons
Again, I lose most of my games to simply not holding the ramp, but I'm reaching the point where I'm holding it more often than not against master level players.
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I cannot see how you can stop a 4-gate where he abuses zealot warp-ins on your ramp over your FFs, nor blink stalkers (you can abuse warp-ins over the FF to gain vision to blink if necessary).
I've experimented with stargate openers after I fend off a 4-gate with a 3-gate, but found that I just get completely hard-countered by blink stalkers. However in the off chance you can confirm they are going 1-base robo early enough it is very effective IMO. Also if they do any type of early expand play I've found phoenix openers are quite strong as well, and preferable than trying to catch up to him with your own expo.
edit: oh I see you are talking about double FF'ing the ramp. In that scenario you would need 6 sentries to keep the ramp perma double FF'ed no?
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On February 15 2011 07:38 Skyro wrote:
I cannot see how you can stop a 4-gate where he abuses zealot warp-ins on your ramp over your FFs, nor blink stalkers (you can abuse warp-ins over the FF to gain vision to blink if necessary).
I've experimented with stargate openers after I fend off a 4-gate with a 3-gate, but found that I just get completely hard-countered by blink stalkers. However in the off chance you can confirm they are going 1-base robo early enough it is very effective IMO. Also if they do any type of early expand play I've found phoenix openers are quite strong as well, and preferable than trying to catch up to him with your own expo.
edit: oh I see you are talking about double FF'ing the ramp. In that scenario you would need 6 sentries to keep the ramp perma double FF'ed no?
Correct, but the idea is not to keep the ramp forcefielded forever, just delay the 4gate push as much as possible. Most players will pull stalkers back if phoenixes get to their mineral line.
Blink stalkers are a huge issue for this build yes, but bear in mind that:
A) blink stalker tech kicks in at around the same time as phoenix tech.
B) You're effectively going 2gate + 1 stargate vs 3gate (4gate blink stalkers are not effective)
C) Phoenixes can be used to limit the mobility of blink stalkers, lifting one or two and charging your army forward. Either his remaining stalkers take hits from zealots, or you get 2 easy stalker kills.
I haven't had much experience against blink stalker plays since it's a much less common build, but even then remember that sentries forcefields are still useful, plenty of sentries means plenty of guardian shield as well. It's also VERY difficult to get an entire stalker army up a forcefielded ramp without losing any.
You need to try and damage a blink stalker play early, and then try and catch back up with blink stalkers of your own.
Think delay delay delay, anything you can do to stall him (picking off proxy probe and any others sent from the base for example) puts the game in your favour
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^this all has been confirmed from all top high level players so dont try to deny it
Don't need to get so defensive brah.
Meh I wouldnt know anyway tbh because i usually adelscott in pvp, so 4gates arent a problem
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again, i don't disagree with stargate beeing a strong opener, only the issue of surviving a perfect 4 Gate Ramp Warp-in Abuse.
a decent 4 Gate hits at 5:30-5:45 how many forcefields you can sustain during that time?
i remember Response hardly to try to make this work, and it only worked barely with double forcefields Sentry of 3 Gates as far as i have in mind.
i'll give you another idea which imho is alot more viable.
Get Forge first, bait a canon rush while getting Stargate tech.
this will prevent any 4 Gate (if he goes forge himself in reaction)
(you don't actually want to build canons just delay any aggression of him, while in your base boosting econ! while teching to stargate.
i still have in mind to make such a BO work, but never got the time to make it work.
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Nice post. Could a cannon wall off opening be viable? Just thinking it wouldn't really put you far behind as you are so eco heavy and production/tech light. Plus it may encourage builds than you can counter such as collosus or void ray. I'm not at your level but just a thought.
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Yeah, that will always be the challenge of PvP, however, don't underestimate using two forcefields on the ramp. Consider it from the enemies perspective, there are two forcefields, he needs to warp in, does he try and wait for the forcefield to disappear and hope you don't have another, significantly wasting warp in time, or does he just wait another warp in cycle and not waste the time?
Units on the low ground will always still struggle to get up the ramp, zealots warped in on the high ground are rediculously easy pickings for phoenixes without much risk from stalkers picking them off due to their mobility. Hence a delay of 30-60 seconds is often enough to hold off the 4gate rush.
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On February 15 2011 07:58 Gitch wrote:
Nice post. Could a cannon wall off opening be viable? Just thinking it wouldn't really put you far behind as you are so eco heavy and production/tech light. Plus it may encourage builds than you can counter such as collosus or void ray. I'm not at your level but just a thought.
No, not in my experience.
I tried playing around with cannons, and while they are very good for defending 4gates, you simply have to invest too much into them. I tried a 1 gate 1 forge 1 stargate build initially, but a good opponent sees the cannons, realises you can't actually attack him and win, meaning he is safe to power his economy and leave his stalkers in his mineral line, provided he constantly scouts for an expansion.
Also, using the forge for early upgrades is largely wasted due to the smaller ground army.
Cannons further expose the builds greatest weakness: dealing with blink stalkers. Blinkstalkers can simply ignore cannons all together and kill you off while your tiny army runs around doing nothing.
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Didn't Tyler give up on early phoenix because it can't punish an early expand.
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Bear in mind guys I don't believe this build is at all superiour to simply 4gating, I'm just saying that it is possible to hold off a 4gate rush with this build, and if you do it is an almost certain victory, 4gates just don't transition well.
Given how easy a 4gate build is, and how precise you have to be with this build to simply not die instantly, I suspect the build gets better the higher up in player skill you go. Simply put, I suspect that a game between two proffesional players would lead to this build having a higher win rate than what I get with it... but I still suspect the 4 gate will win most games.
Ideally I would love that to be tested because, who knows? Maybe it can deflect 4gates almost every time. If it does that would be brilliant, but I am not skilled enough as a player to test it myself.
Until then this build is simply an interesting, fun to play, approach to PvP. Hell even the games I lose I feel happier about since the burden is on MY game play, it's not a simple mass unit vs mass unit battle, it is my mistakes that ultimately define the games, if I lose I can *ALWAYS* highlight a single key mistake that lost the game for me, and work to improve on it.
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On February 15 2011 08:06 OwlFeet wrote:
Didn't Tyler give up on early phoenix because it can't punish an early expand.
Possibly, but with all the scouting information you get you can expand at the same time.
I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) Tyler mostly played around with 2stargate builds back with the old phoenix build time. With the new build time, a single stargate with chronoboosts gets you enough phoenixes fast enough to be effective, without being at all overly commited to phoenixes.
Hell scouting an early expo you could probably chronoboost out a voidray or two, bank on the fact that he will have fewer stalkers due to an early expo, lift up a fair number of his stalkers and laugh as your voidrays crush through. This is not a scenario I have tested at all, but it could potentially work out.
Failing that, there is nothing about this build stopping you from expanding as well, you're not cutting probes, you're not committed to dealing damage with phoenixes, and phoenixes are a highly effective addition to your army.
That being said I've learnt the hard way not to be too greedy while harassing his mineral line. I've lost a few games because I took down a few too many probes, only to have my phoenixes out of energy during some key battle, and getting steam rolled.
In the large army limit phoenixes are great, since ground units struggle for pathing, and phoenixes can be VERY selective about where they deal their damage.
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Incidently, replay 2 is a replay of me holding off a 4gate where he even tries to use the pylon ramp warp in trick, I was able to deny the pylon, and despite playing poorly overall, win.
It shows how the games can play out. It's not simply a 'oh if he builds a pylon near your ramp you're dead,'
The enemy busting your ramp will kill you off, guaranteed, but games really aren't that binary, there are lots of things you can do to pull a win. Never underestimate the utility of 4 sentries against an army that has none...
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You will not stop a good 4 gate with only 2 gates, period.
Don't give up on phoenixes though, because they certainly are still viable in mid-late game PvP. Just don't try to rush to them too fast. The most success with phoenixes that I see involve a traditional 3 gate into robo, followed by stargate for phoenix/immortal play.
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On February 15 2011 08:25 Anihc wrote:
You will not stop a good 4 gate with only 2 gates, period.
Well I've done all I can to convince you, might I suggest you at least give it a try though.
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that 4 gate wasn't done well enough
to late warp ins, to late push.
just ask yourself how do you deal with 5 Stalker 1 Zealot @ 5:45 with pylon going up at your ramp for additional 4 Zealots coming 32s later, you won't out dps a Pylon with a single sentry.
he didn't get a pylon up which of course made you held it with mostly 1 forcefields down your ramp
but you can't count in highlevel play on that.
as long as the warp-in bug doesn't get fixed this won't work, you just don't how enough forcefields of 2 Gates.
again, no problem going stargate, only surviving the critical path.
thats why i say, transition into it after defending a 4 gate (or when you see him doing something else of course)
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I don't know what you call mid-masters, but if you think you can ff a ramp indefinitely vs a 4 warpgate, than you are wrong. It is simply impossible.
Bottom of ramp = warp above ff
Middle of ramp = warp above ff
Top of ramp = warp onto high ground
tl;dr - no
Edit: and for reference if you want to play me and demonstrate just how it IS possible to hold a 4 warpgate indefinitely with 4 sentries, i wouild gladly. I will literally just go 4 warpgate, not push until you tell me you have 4 sentries, and then we'll just see if can't get up that ramp in about 30 seconds.
Edit 2: For reference, i'm 3000 masters, which is what i consider mid-masters, and i used to play phoenix openers exclusively since about 3 weeks after release, and hovered at rank ~250 NA for a long time. After people discovered the trick of pylon warping up, the three different stargate builds i used in pvp were all rendered useless, despite anything i tried. I mean, thats not to say i clearly did everything ever possible to stop it, but from my 2-3 months of PvP phoenix play i thought i had the build down but for me it turned out to simply be impossible.
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On February 15 2011 08:30 freetgy wrote:
that 4 gate wasn't done well enough
to late warp ins, to late push.
just ask yourself how do you deal with 5 Stalker 1 Zealot @ 5:45 with pylon going up at your ramp for additional 4 Zealots coming 32s later, you won't out dps a Pylon with a single sentry.
I completely agree, he didn't pull it off that well, but then I screwed up as well, I was over 400 minerals at 5:45.
But none the less at 5:45 I had 2 sentries at my ramp, and 2 more seconds away from completing, and warpgate research was also seconds away from completing (the timing is such that it finishes at almost the same time as the 3rd and 4th sentries.)
That's *WHY* this timing works, I can forcefield the bottom of the ramp immediately, and see what he's planning. I can choose what to warp in with my first gateway round, and can cut my first phoenix and chronoboost my gateways if necessary.
at 5:45 I immediately throw down a forcefield.
at roughly 5:55 I have 4 sentries and at roughly 6 minutes I can use my first warp in.
Bear in mind my first sentry has enough energy for 2 FF and my second is getting there. If I see the proxy pylon I can either warp in 2 stalkers, or warp in a sentry and a zealot, or warp in a sentry, wait a bit, and warp in a satlker.
A forcefield at the top and bottom of the ramp when I see the zealots warping in means that I can pick off 4 free zealots *without his stalkers being able to attack me*
I clearly have the energy to keep the top and bottom forcefielded to kill off those 4 without taking damaging, and bear in mind that sentries put out 6 dps, where stalkers put out 6.9 vs light, so sentries are actually almost as effective at killing off those zealots.
After that I'll have a phoenix or two out, and while it is probably his army will bust the ramp, would you tell me what 5 stalkers 1 zealot + 4 warp ins is going to do against 5 sentries 1 stalker, 1-2 phoenixes and 2-3 warp ins, when I can quite capably block off around half of his army.
As I've been saying over and over, it is *tough,* I lose many games outright, but I have pulled it off several times. At least try it out before flatly stating it is impossible.
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Lol just real quick. Sentries blow against zealots. Stalkers are fine because they can kite, and have more health. Sentries cannot, and therefore you cannot outmicro zealots or even come close to doing so. In a sentry vs zealot battle, zealot wins. In fact, in a zealot vs sentry and stalker, you will still lose the sentry unless you literally just run the sentry and he chases it indefinitely, and that would only work if there were no other units other than the zealot
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On February 15 2011 08:36 sAfuRos wrote:
i used to play phoenix openers exclusively since about 3 weeks after release, and hovered at rank ~250 NA for a long time. After people discovered the trick of pylon warping up, the three different stargate builds i used in pvp were all rendered useless, despite anything i tried.
Have you taken into account how quick phoenixes build now? Shortly after release phoenixes couldn't even attack on the move. A lot has changed, give it another go.
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On February 15 2011 08:47 sAfuRos wrote:
Lol just real quick. Sentries blow against zealots. Stalkers are fine because they can kite, and have more health. Sentries cannot, and therefore you cannot outmicro zealots or even come close to doing so. In a sentry vs zealot battle, zealot wins. In fact, in a zealot vs sentry and stalker, you will still lose the sentry unless you literally just run the sentry and he chases it indefinitely, and that would only work if there were no other units other than the zealot
Zealots stuck between two forcefields suck against sentries, just for the record.
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On February 15 2011 08:48 Methy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2011 08:36 sAfuRos wrote:
i used to play phoenix openers exclusively since about 3 weeks after release, and hovered at rank ~250 NA for a long time. After people discovered the trick of pylon warping up, the three different stargate builds i used in pvp were all rendered useless, despite anything i tried. Have you taken into account how quick phoenixes build now? Shortly after release phoenixes couldn't even attack on the move. A lot has changed, give it another go.
Yes. The speed at which i can build phoenix' does not affect the fact that my ramp is still vulnerable to 4 warpgates.
Plus, more phoenix = less gateway units. So pretty much the trade-off is null, and the problem with 4 warpgating still, well, going up the ramp, is there
let me put it to you this way. If it was really possible to just hold your ramp indefinitely, why don't people do 1 gate robo builds. or 2 gate robo builds, or 3 gate robo builds versus a 1 gas open? Because its ****ing impossible to hold the ramp. And with robo builds you have more gas for sentries, cause the robo is less.
Again, no. If this is working for you, than fantastic. It will not work as you start to play better people. Period.
Edit: Oh, and i mean this won't work against 4 warpgate. Phoenix builds are still viable vs tech builds.
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On February 15 2011 08:50 sAfuRos wrote:
Again, no. If this is working for you, than fantastic. It will not work as you start to play better people. Period.
Funny since I'm at pretty much the same rating as you, and having moderate success with it (again my PvP win loss is now probably below 50%, but at least I'm enjoying it)
But your argument amounts to nothing more than the word 'no,' which is fine, if you don't want to try it don't, I'm not at any point thinking that 4gating will go away, nor does this build have a significant advantage over 4gate plays.
I am, however, looking for useful feedback to perhaps iron out the build further, because I do not enjoy 4gating at all. Saying 'no it can't be done' is hardly useful without an actual attempt, so I won't be responding to anymore of your posts.
Also, please just take it easy, you're getting very aggressive with little reason, I'm not in anyway disagreeing with you that a solid 4gate push is almost impossible to hold off, but every player makes mistakes, and if you can capitalise on one you're good to go.
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again, i have no problem believing it is viable, versus a 4 gate without warp-in on your ramp; so is every other build that revolves around 2 gates.
but if he manages a decent 4 gate, can you hold?
at least 1 replay that shows you holding such an attack would improve this strategy alot.
on the otherside if this was viable,
2 Gate DTs would work even better as a counter to 4 Gates.
again same problem = holding the ramp.
what bugs me, does a lift of Unit give vision?
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Canada13389 Posts
can you try this against someone placing a pylon at the base of the ramp to your base? since pylons provide warp in vision up the ramp the forcefields dont seem to helpful while teching to stargate. With robotics its not as bad since whatever comes out of the robotics facility will be able to attack the opponent units, one phoenix or two won't do much to hurt the warping in zealots :/
Ehit: a replay where the pylon finishes being built for example a double pylon at the ramp. since the pylon being killed will just be cancelled and rebuilt at that point by a good protoss player
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Correction to your post:
Force fields last 15 seconds each, not 30. Thus, two sentries will keep you alive for 30 seconds at most.
What do you do against blink builds? Korean 4 gate all-in?
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On February 15 2011 09:03 freetgy wrote:
again, i have no problem believing it is viable, versus a 4 gate without warp-in on your ramp; so is every other build that revolves around 2 gates.
but if he manages a decent 4 gate, can you hold?
at least 1 replay that shows you holding such an attack would improve this alot.
I'll definitely get right on that, but essentially, this build is the fastest way I could develop to get 4 sentries out quickly, which most other 2 gate builds do not, also bear in mind that a 4gate will break your ramp at some point, but that a phoenix 2gate composition from a superior economy can dispatch a 4gate army, given that your stargate comes online shortly after the 4gate rush you're just wanting to delay the army until your tech can really kick in, which is really not *that* far behind a 4gate push.
They have to seriously cut their eco to get an early 4gate rush, hence every second that passes you get stronger, doing everything to stall them can buy you enough time for this to matter. As demonstrated phoenixes are brutally effective against zealots and sentries, and can be selective in their targeting.
Unfortunately I can only test this against players of my level, I am genuinely wanting higher level players to try it out decently, not just try it once, fail and give up.
If the build fails, then it fails, and I'm ok with it, if the build ends up weak against 4gate builds, but still managable, then perfect, I'm happy with that, this is nothing more than a play style I have been using for a few weeks that I really enjoy, despite it's short comings.
I will post more replays as and when I play them, it's just that this PvP was the only one on my recent replay list (apart from one where I got proxy gated on steppes) and I hadn't planned on formalising the build at all.
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Just tried this build out in a 1v1 PvP on Metalopololis. I'm a 2900+ Diamond player and my opponent was a 2900+ diamond as well. To be honest, i was a bit surprised at how effective this build was, as i simply crushed him with decent lifting and an early FF @ ramp to prevent his initial push. It seems like as long as you stop the initial 5-6 units coming in off his first warp in cycle with a FF, you can easily beat a 4 gate or robo play.
While defending myself, i actually expanded at the same time (kept pushing him further and further back, he kept trying to push me) due to extra minerals. I did find that at the point where i had 5 phoenix out, i ran out of energy on them from lifting and i was chronoing the crap out of my stargate to get the next one out. The lifts are so key, so important, and its important not too use too many lifts at once.
What i found super effective was actually lifting/sniping the zealots/ sentries out of his army. The zeals and sentries die so flippin fast, and it makes your opponent either hold their ground with their stalkers and get beaten on by your zealots, or retreat and lose their zeals/sentries.
Either way, attacking after 3-4 warp in cycles becomes impractical. We both transitioned into 2 base builds, he got blink and i got charge + a robo for obs in case of DT, while continuing to make lots of zeals, a few sentries, void rays, and phoenix. Once the Void Rays came into play I tried to focus on picking up the anti air, and letting my zeals deal with his etc. It makes the fight rather prolonged, and the void rays get ample time to charge up. And once they are, the stalkers just get mowed over and your opponent is left with no anti air, meaning you basically win by default.
Over all, I am very impressed with just how well this build worked.
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I actually have a friend who does almost the exact same build in our pvp practice games! It's really hard to deal with imo. But It's quite strong to simply expand once you see this, put up a few cannons in the mineral line and tech to blink stalkers which imo is a decent response.
I have tried some 1 base semi all-ins against this, like 3gate void ray and 1 base colossus and it haven't been that succesful.
Edit: Some people here claims that a 4 gate will crush this. I have to disagree, I've tried 4 gate with limited success. Although I'm just a diamond level player so my 4-gates might not be up to par with the one of a Master level player.
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On February 15 2011 09:10 wherebugsgo wrote:
Correction to your post:
Force fields last 15 seconds each, not 30. Thus, two sentries will keep you alive for 30 seconds at most.
What do you do against blink builds? Korean 4 gate all-in?
2 sentries keep you alive for 30 seconds, but your next 2 sentries and warpgate research finish well within that 30 seconds.
Blink builds are troublesome as I have said, but I do provide some details in the post.
The korean 4-gate all in is all about shutting down probes early, but will almost always kill you regardless. The real solution to this lies in the fact that a korean 4-gate is very easy to scout, and responding with a more appropriate build order is ideal. It's the same as with a normal 4-gate vs a korean 4-gate, if you don't change your build order at all he will kill a lot of your probes.
Generally sentries are out early enough to stop probes from entering your base, but the scouting probe causes problems, as does an immediate ramp warp in on his first cycle, I definitely wouldn't bother attempting to rush to phoenixes if you scout a korean 4gate though.
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On February 15 2011 09:19 Legion.217 wrote:
It seems like as long as you stop the initial 5-6 units coming in off his first warp in cycle with a FF, you can easily beat a 4 gate or robo play.
What i found super effective was actually lifting/sniping the zealots/ sentries out of his army. The zeals and sentries die so flippin fast, and it makes your opponent either hold their ground with their stalkers and get beaten on by your zealots, or retreat and lose their zeals/sentries.
Firstly thanks for trying it out. Secondly thanks for the feedback. This is exactly the idea of the build on both counts. If you can hold that intial 1-2 warp in rounds you're golden. Stalkers kill phoenixes really slowely, and he has a choice of either tanking the (much higher) zealot dps, or sacrificing a couple of units.
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On February 15 2011 09:10 wherebugsgo wrote:
Correction to your post:
Force fields last 15 seconds each, not 30. Thus, two sentries will keep you alive for 30 seconds at most.
What do you do against blink builds? Korean 4 gate all-in?
I questioned this as well.
Well, Blink builds seem more manageable. But what about KR 4gates? Sentries are useless vs that. Let me start off by saying that I appreciate the work you put into this build and the effort taken to try and change up the PvP match up. But, I don't think i'm feeling this. I as well have tried 2 gate sg builds with phoenix (not as polished/refined), but 4gate is just the end-all-be-all for it. I don't care about your "two FF's holding the ramp". I can still warp a zealot on the ramp, there's no denial of this. Why do you think robo builds aren't that effective? You even end up with more gas and more sentries but sometimes you just can't hold off a smart 4gate. At least in robo builds it delays for an immortal, which allows you to fully fend off the 4gate. 1-3 rushed phoenix with your sentries and a few gateway units just won't do it like robo builds do, sorry. But I can imagine this working marvelously vs robo openings, as you explained.
4gate gives you more room for mistakes. Despite being able to warp on the ramp, how does it feel to miss a key FF and have to f10 + n immediately afterwards?
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United States313 Posts
I've been using a very similar play in PvP since the build time patch as well, but I want to point out that I at least have been having good success with it (mid masters) as an aggressive build. My opening build is a bit different though, I don't feel that sentry is necessary as it slows down the stargate and I don't really commit to it unless I've seen the 2nd assimilator with my scouting probe anyway. The stalker allows me to delay proxy pylons in case its a 2 gas 4 gate attempt, the delayed pylon + assimilator is usually enough of a setback to really screw a 4 gate up.
I spend the majority of chronoboost on the stargate, moving out with a stalker zealot force as my 3rd phoenix is building. I warp in my own proxy pylon and wait for my 4th phoenix to engage. I lead with phoenix so i can snipe any sentrys, if they FF the ramp its not a big deal because I haven't started moving up it yet. If you can continue producing phoenix and gateway units (you'll actually add on a third gateway a couple waves after you start to engage) you isolate a situation where your phoenix micro is the deciding factor, they can't block their ramp and if they've teched you have an equal or greater gateway army. Only critical decisions to make is knowing what to pick up, and only picking up a unit or two at a time, it is absolutely critical that your phoenix contribute their DPS to the fight or you will not be able to do enough damage quickly enough despite disabling half of their army at a time with 4+ graviton beams.
This attack timing comes just before the first colossus completes in a straight colossus build, the general chaos caused by the phoenix and your army rushing up is usually enough to limit the effectiveness of the colossi. If they went for an immortal first then obviously you just pick up the immortal, its actually amusing how quickly the phoenix kill the 250/150 + robo unit. Blink builds usually have a smaller gateway army size, so unless you micro it horribly these are really not much of an answer against this push either.
I've had a lot of success with this build, but it is quite all in at least as I play it currently, I often cut probes around 24. The games I lose are caused by mistakes in my micro, not in the strategy itself. I'm not sure why this OP goes on to talk about transitions etc, or patrolling with 10 phoenix, but as a timing push the Gateway Stargate Gateway opening has worked quite well for me. If your interested let me know and I'll get some replays up.
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On February 15 2011 09:30 DuckS wrote:
4gate gives you more room for mistakes. Despite being able to warp on the ramp, how does it feel to miss a key FF and have to f10 + n immediately afterwards?
Personally, a hell of a lot better than winning through a 4gate vs 4gate fight. Yes it is frustrating, but the challenge it poses is fun and interesting, 4 gate builds are simply not.
I definitely lose more often than not against a 4gate push, but I almost NEVER lose to robo openings, and if I can hold the ramp against a 4gate (which is usually the case if they haven't gone berserk rushing to 4 gates) I almost always go on to win.
I'm also fully willing to admit that my win percentages are further skewed by the fact that there are a lot of people who are just genuinely disinterested in 4gating, and this build is generally extremely strong against them.
I have constantly stated that I don't believe this build to be superiour to 4gating as a victory strategy in a typical game, but I enjoy losing with this build more than I enjoy winning with a 4gate. I'm not wanting to cause a revolution in PvP, and I don't believe, as the game currently stands, the 4gate mould will be broken. I am wanting this to at least not be an auto-loss against four gates, and I genuinely don't believe it is. So maybe you have to outplay your opponent quite solidly, who cares? that makes winning even more fun.
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On February 15 2011 09:37 TrueRedemption wrote:
but as a timing push the Gateway Stargate Gateway opening has worked quite well for me. If your interested let me know and I'll get some replays up.
replays , would be very appreciated.
i also think anything aggressiv lets you transition into stargate alot easier.
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On February 15 2011 09:37 Methy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2011 09:30 DuckS wrote:
4gate gives you more room for mistakes. Despite being able to warp on the ramp, how does it feel to miss a key FF and have to f10 + n immediately afterwards? Personally, a hell of a lot better than winning through a 4gate vs 4gate fight. Yes it is frustrating, but the challenge it poses is fun and interesting, 4 gate builds are simply not. I definitely lose more often than not against a 4gate push, but I almost NEVER lose to robo openings, and if I can hold the ramp against a 4gate (which is usually the case if they haven't gone berserk rushing to 4 gates) I almost always go on to win. I'm also fully willing to admit that my win percentages are further skewed by the fact that there are a lot of people who are just genuinely disinterested in 4gating, and this build is generally extremely strong against them. I have constantly stated that I don't believe this build to be superiour to 4gating as a victory strategy in a typical game, but I enjoy losing with this build more than I enjoy winning with a 4gate. I'm not wanting to cause a revolution in PvP, and I don't believe, as the game currently stands, the 4gate mould will be broken. I am wanting this to at least not be an auto-loss against four gates, and I genuinely don't believe it is. So maybe you have to outplay your opponent quite solidly, who cares? that makes winning even more fun.
errrrr..
so you want a strategy that's fun to do, and don't care if you lose?
1 base carrier, mothership rush.
and you kinda sorta avoided the rest of my post.. your main argument seems to be that you just want to challenge yourself and lose. sure, this build is strong vs things that aren't 4gate, doesn't refute anything - 4gate, the popular strat, will still beat it. that's like saying "immortals are strong vs marauders, let's just open with them anywa- OGH GOD BRAT_OK PUSH".
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if you want a challenge and a better chance of winning at the same time try KCDC's opener he posted. Its better vs 4 gate than this and seems worth refining. YOu can transition to phoenix or VR from that defense or collossus or whatever you want.
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I agree that the phoenix is made for PvP, probes can the 2shot, cannons don't do shat against it compared to missile turrets and spores for cost, the only protoss ground unit it can't lift it it can fire directly at. The primary protoss anti air does shit damage against light.
However, in the case of a 4gate, 2 gates don't cut it, you need 3gate stargate I would say. There's also not really a high need for stalkers at all if you go phoenices, if you don't have stalkers there is nothing armoured on the field for his stalkers, if he doesn 't go stalker then everything on the field is light for your phoenices. He can't kite you perpetually anymore if you just go with zealots and sentries because you just lift and take them off. And yeah, he can try to take your zealots off while he does that with kiting but if he doesn't try to fire at your phoenices he'll end up in the nasty situation where you have air and he doesn't have anti air. I also love to mix a void ray in as the defence goes on.
I'm not the best player, but I've seen some pretty cool successes with it myself where I completely stomped a standard protoss army by mainly going zealot/sentry/phoenix and cutting most stalkers. And yeah, he will forcefield you if you don't pick of sentries a lot, so that's a thing you have to be diligent about to make it work.
Splitting my phoenices in two control groups I never thought of, I really have to try this.
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I've played around with this build a little too, i got for a zealot,(warpgate) stalker, stargate, sentry chrono, get next gate. While my stargate is building i try to have enough chrono that i can get 2 off on my stargate otherwise i chrono warpgate. Add on stalkers/sentry/zealot as much as i can, but ususally only 2 or 3 sentries, i often add a third gateway and stop phoenix production at 4 or 5. Use the phoenix to push mineral line and take probes off the minerals, not gas. If you take off gas they build more stalkers due to lack of gas, with less probes on minerals they blindly make sentries....poke around a bit, expand, add on more ground army, keep poking with phoenix to pick up sentries/zealots to thin out army and push in with ground heavy army while transferring probes to expand.
Diamond level. (!2400)
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On February 15 2011 07:36 Methy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2011 07:32 NB wrote:
to stop a 4 gates, you need 2 FFs at the ramp to stop zealots wrap in, not 1.
this build is really good but the fact that you cannot stop 4 gates with it make it completely useless
I've already addressed this. I'm not denying you will have to deal with a 4gate army at some point, but the crucial thing is the timing. Any delays to a 4gate rush and it becomes significantly weaker, in the large army limit phoenixes turn out to be more effective than straight gateway units (at least in every experience of it I have had), the idea is to stall until you get them out. and bear in mind 4-5 phoenixes are often enough, you must bear in mind that while delaying his push, you can be fly about with phoenixes, and pick off sentries and zealots with ease. Stalkers just don't kill phoenixes quick enough, or move quick enough to ward them off. If his stalkers are surrounding the ramp in an attempt to get vision and snipe something, circle round behind them and pick off a zealot. Pick off the probe building proxy pylons Again, I lose most of my games to simply not holding the ramp, but I'm reaching the point where I'm holding it more often than not against master level players.
If I 4gate against a tech build, I place two pylons directly below their ramp. One touching the ramp and another behind it. One of them will go up.
Against your army composition, both will go up. I will warp 4 zealots into your base and the game is over before the six minute mark.
The build looks fun and reasonable against other tech builds. It could play well vs fast colossus or KCDC's immortal build which both can be light on stalkers. If they don't get units up your ramp with a 4gate, your opponents are doing it wrong.
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Very nice post, I might start trying it on ladder. I'd been toying around with Phoenixes myself using mostly Immortals as my ground army. Phoenixes kill the Zealots/Sentries, Immortals mop up his Stalkers.
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I have been using this build for a long time and liking it a lot.
Also I made a deviation of this build with an all-in IF the guy is going for 3gate robo and getting an immortal, works wonders 
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On February 15 2011 10:30 Ummbeefy wrote:
If they don't get units up your ramp with a 4gate, your opponents are doing it wrong.
It's not about if they get units up your ramp, they will, it's about when and how many they get. That's what ultimately decides the game, and yes they have an advantage on that front, but it is *not* insurmountable.
In anycase I'm heading to bed now, so I won't be able to post for the next 8 or so hours.
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On February 15 2011 09:24 Methy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2011 09:10 wherebugsgo wrote:
Correction to your post:
Force fields last 15 seconds each, not 30. Thus, two sentries will keep you alive for 30 seconds at most.
What do you do against blink builds? Korean 4 gate all-in? 2 sentries keep you alive for 30 seconds, but your next 2 sentries and warpgate research finish well within that 30 seconds. Blink builds are troublesome as I have said, but I do provide some details in the post. The korean 4-gate all in is all about shutting down probes early, but will almost always kill you regardless. The real solution to this lies in the fact that a korean 4-gate is very easy to scout, and responding with a more appropriate build order is ideal. It's the same as with a normal 4-gate vs a korean 4-gate, if you don't change your build order at all he will kill a lot of your probes. Generally sentries are out early enough to stop probes from entering your base, but the scouting probe causes problems, as does an immediate ramp warp in on his first cycle, I definitely wouldn't bother attempting to rush to phoenixes if you scout a korean 4gate though.
I doubt this is true. From my experience in PvP, you can't generally have any more than 3 sentries out during the time I'm breaking a ramp. Also, the additional time you buy won't help you at all when you run out of forcefields, because it's not possible to forcefield the ramp indefinitely. From my experience, a player who tries to go 2 gate robo, for example, will only have 2 sentries when I attack his ramp, and then I will manage to break during a five second window where he doesn't have energy for a forcefield right afterward.
In addition, my production off four gates will give me way more units than you can handle regardless of whether you go robo or stargate. Stargate is weaker precisely because there are no units other than immortals that can handle stalkers at that time in the game.
Lastly, there are still DT builds. If you go 2 gate robo, you can handle DT builds and blink builds fine because of the observer and immortals. If you go 2 gate stargate, you die to both. 3 gate robo can potentially hold off a 4-gate if executed properly. If you go 2 gate star or 3 gate star, you're dead. Period.
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^ timings work out that you get your 4th sentry out a few seconds after his warpgate research. 2 gate robo builds push to robo bays early, producing off 1 gateway, this gets 2 sentries out of one gateway, and then simeltaneously produces 2 from 2 gateways.
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No they don't.
Robo builds only push to robo bays early if there is no threat of a 4 gate. The threat of 4-gates forces robo users to chrono the immortal out. It comes roughly 30 seconds after the 4 gate hits, and there's usually a small timing window where the robo player has to stall to get the immortal while the four-gater is in his base.
The disadvantage you have as a stargate player is that the stargate costs 50 additional gas and yet gives you no unit that is cost-effective in killing stalkers. Thus, you'll have the same number of sentries, but when the attack hits, you'll die because you're not actually stalling for anything useful.
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Gotta agree with the other high level commenters here--this won't hold a good 4 gate. You don't have enough forcefields to spend 2 at a time, and if you don't spend 2 at a time, they can warp zealots up your ramp and into your main with 1 pylon. Also remember that a zealot+stalker poke forces you to spend a forcefield earlier than you're envisioning. Not a solid defense. You can't spend 150 gas on a stargate that early in PvP.
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The problem I have with phoenix is getting there with them. In low numbers they do nothing and getting a substantial number of them is hard(the critical number is 3 imo as you can start to kill zealots with 1 lift then and kill probes very fast).
Once you have a good phoenix amount they are basically uncounterable in the mirror. The only unit that can beat them are carriers and stalkers. Unfortunately stalkers are one of the main units in the begin of every PvP match because they are so versatile and never really bad. Phoenix openings will be at a disadvantage to way too many openings that make me reluctant to use them, for example 4 gate, quick DTs or blink stalkers. Phoenix play is favored against robo play but not even that super much imo, a robo player will always scout you with a obs quickly upon seeing 2 gas and they will cancel their support bay then if they are good. After that they can easily still transition into blink stalkers, while only having 'wasted' their money on 1 immortal usually.
One key thing I don't like about phoenix play either is that when your opponent responds with blink stalkers, which they usually will, you have to be very sharp in your scouting onwards. If you ever miss them proxying a dark shrine somewhere on the map you can instantly lose and when you DO find it you are forced into more costs then he is actually (robo + obs costs more then DT shrine).
What I prefer to use actually is a robo opening INTO stargate play when I scout them going with a robo as well. Immortal, phoenix, zealot is quite a potent combination. You can harass alot with the phoenix and you can lift their zealots with your phoenix opening up the way for your immortals against his stalkers and colossi or in case of lots of zealots and few stalkers you can simply focus the stalkers or the colossi. Either way I think robo + stargate > robo + bay nowadays.
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On February 15 2011 11:34 kcdc wrote:
Gotta agree with the other high level commenters here--this won't hold a good 4 gate. You don't have enough forcefields to spend 2 at a time, and if you don't spend 2 at a time, they can warp zealots up your ramp and into your main with 1 pylon. Also remember that a zealot+stalker poke forces you to spend a forcefield earlier than you're envisioning. Not a solid defense. You can't spend 150 gas on a stargate that early in PvP.
As soon as the first Phoenix popped you could start scouting for the forward Pylon Probe, lift it when you see it to stall it, then lift it again with your 2nd Phoenix to kill it. You'll either kill it or force a Pylon to be dropped in a position where he can't warp in units on your ramp. At least that's what springs to mind. Not sure if it'd work in practice.
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Very interesting. As a fellow Colossi War hater I've been working on a similar opening myself, but due to my lack of skill/experience/knowledge I was not able to get any kind of solid build (AKA, got decimated by most all-in tactics).
So I'll definitively give it a try.
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On February 15 2011 11:56 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2011 11:34 kcdc wrote:
Gotta agree with the other high level commenters here--this won't hold a good 4 gate. You don't have enough forcefields to spend 2 at a time, and if you don't spend 2 at a time, they can warp zealots up your ramp and into your main with 1 pylon. Also remember that a zealot+stalker poke forces you to spend a forcefield earlier than you're envisioning. Not a solid defense. You can't spend 150 gas on a stargate that early in PvP. As soon as the first Phoenix popped you could start scouting for the forward Pylon Probe, lift it when you see it to stall it, then lift it again with your 2nd Phoenix to kill it. You'll either kill it or force a Pylon to be dropped in a position where he can't warp in units on your ramp. At least that's what springs to mind. Not sure if it'd work in practice.
Ugh these kind of comments are silly. Have you considered how long it takes to get that first phoenix out, yet alone 2? No way that will be anything close in time to stop a proxy pylon from going. Please consider such elemental things like if something is remotely possible before posting. This isn't a brainstorm session.
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On February 15 2011 12:53 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2011 11:56 branflakes14 wrote:On February 15 2011 11:34 kcdc wrote:
Gotta agree with the other high level commenters here--this won't hold a good 4 gate. You don't have enough forcefields to spend 2 at a time, and if you don't spend 2 at a time, they can warp zealots up your ramp and into your main with 1 pylon. Also remember that a zealot+stalker poke forces you to spend a forcefield earlier than you're envisioning. Not a solid defense. You can't spend 150 gas on a stargate that early in PvP. As soon as the first Phoenix popped you could start scouting for the forward Pylon Probe, lift it when you see it to stall it, then lift it again with your 2nd Phoenix to kill it. You'll either kill it or force a Pylon to be dropped in a position where he can't warp in units on your ramp. At least that's what springs to mind. Not sure if it'd work in practice. Ugh these kind of comments are silly. Have you considered how long it takes to get that first phoenix out, yet alone 2? No way that will be anything close in time to stop a proxy pylon from going. Please consider such elemental things like if something is remotely possible before posting. This isn't a brainstorm session.
Gate -> Core -> Stargate gets you your first Phoenix around 5:20-30, giving you about a minute or more before a regular 4gate hits if I recall, and if the Pylon has already gone down away from your base you won't need to worry about him warping in on your ramp.
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On February 15 2011 13:02 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2011 12:53 Markwerf wrote:On February 15 2011 11:56 branflakes14 wrote:On February 15 2011 11:34 kcdc wrote:
Gotta agree with the other high level commenters here--this won't hold a good 4 gate. You don't have enough forcefields to spend 2 at a time, and if you don't spend 2 at a time, they can warp zealots up your ramp and into your main with 1 pylon. Also remember that a zealot+stalker poke forces you to spend a forcefield earlier than you're envisioning. Not a solid defense. You can't spend 150 gas on a stargate that early in PvP. As soon as the first Phoenix popped you could start scouting for the forward Pylon Probe, lift it when you see it to stall it, then lift it again with your 2nd Phoenix to kill it. You'll either kill it or force a Pylon to be dropped in a position where he can't warp in units on your ramp. At least that's what springs to mind. Not sure if it'd work in practice. Ugh these kind of comments are silly. Have you considered how long it takes to get that first phoenix out, yet alone 2? No way that will be anything close in time to stop a proxy pylon from going. Please consider such elemental things like if something is remotely possible before posting. This isn't a brainstorm session. Gate -> Core -> Stargate gets you your first Phoenix around 5:20-30, giving you about a minute or more before a regular 4gate hits if I recall, and if the Pylon has already gone down away from your base you won't need to worry about him warping in on your ramp.
Right... And you'll be able to put down a stargate straight away after your cyber finishes.... Simply no way as you need to start WG tech and make units from your gateway as well....
Even then a 4 gate can make the proxy pylon as early as 4:50... As the first warpin happens around 5:30 with a good 4 gate. The proxy pylon near your ramp can then be made around 5:35 - 5:40, with support from the first round of stalkers....
Like I said, your comment is silly and has no regard for actual timings or practical issue's like when can you possibly put down a stargate.... Because of those simply oversights it contributes nothing to the discussion and is in my opinion even banworthy for it's stupidness.
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Can we revisit this build since the patch? I want to try this out :D
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What would have changed? More people going robo with the wp/immortal buffs means more effectiveness for phoenix play. The only other thing that changed is the mothership which means stargate play gets a (minor) buff. Also, you wouldn't need as many sentries, and you could even sim city the edge of your base by the ramp to prevent blink/warpin from the lowground.
But thanks for bumping the thread, I'm looking to try out some Stargate play pvp =)
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I tried it two times today - it works great. You force your opponent to produce more stalker and less robo units and/or to build cannons (which actually suck). Great strategy
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Revisiting this build is definitely worthwhile. The margin for error of defending 4gates is much higher, and the likelihood of people going for robo (a much more potent tech choice now that 4gate isn't as strong) is higher, which phoenix is good against too.
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Tried this on the ladder, my opponent went mass blink stalker, still won :D
Definitely needs a revisit! Alot has changed.
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I've been thinking of trying a Stargate build in PvP after patch 1.4 and this seems like a nice build especially since 90% of the Protoss I have faced have gone for robo builds.
Gonna try this build in Ladder tonight!
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reveal phoenix tech b4 3 phoenix: get blink countered. Wait for 3 phoenix: die to dt rush. choose!
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On October 04 2011 19:43 NB wrote:
reveal phoenix tech b4 3 phoenix: get blink countered. Wait for 3 phoenix: die to dt rush. choose!
if you scout robo, neither of those are gonna show up fairly fast. And have you actually tried this?
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On October 04 2011 19:43 NB wrote:
reveal phoenix tech b4 3 phoenix: get blink countered. Wait for 3 phoenix: die to dt rush. choose!
blink is not really a counter. they still have to stay in their base or you kill a lot of probes. a blind blink rush might be tricky though.
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I managed to make phoenix builds work at low masters level, and i find it really fun to play.
I think it is much more viable since the blink nerf in 1.4, because blinkstalkers strategies are much more uncommon.
I basically use the 3 stalker rush opening, in an economic oriented way, to prepare for a potential 4 gate.
Build 1 sentry and 1 zealot just after the 3 stalkers, add a 3rd gateway, then the stargate asap.
Warp in only zealots from this time onwards and chronoboost out 4 phoenixes.
Build a robo as soon as you have the gas to do it without delaying phoenix production (it should be possible before the 4th phoenix starts).
Go harass his mineral line and transition to producing zealot/immortal and tech charge asap. This composition will punish his stalker heavy army.
I don't produce more than 4 phoenixes because :
- having lots of them will severely reduce the size of your ground army, which you need to secure the win.
- 4 are enough to do the job : keep him scared in his base, and overproduce stalkers.
- they can still do nice damage, especially if he is going 1 base colo and is unprepared.
Provided expanding is a bit tricky in PvP, i only do it if he does it (you spot it immediately with phoenixes). Expanding will allow you to mix in archons to get a powerful chargelot/immortal/archon mix.
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If this can't stop a 4gate, can this still be used effectively upon scouting non-4gate builds?
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On October 04 2011 21:04 Dhalphir wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 19:43 NB wrote:
reveal phoenix tech b4 3 phoenix: get blink countered. Wait for 3 phoenix: die to dt rush. choose! blink is not really a counter. they still have to stay in their base or you kill a lot of probes. a blind blink rush might be tricky though.
Disagree with this-- if you're committing enough to phoenix to kill 'a lot' of probes, he can just go and kill even more of your probes + your army with blink.
I think the advantage to this build now is that blink timings will be less common due to the increased effectiveness of robo strats, the nerfing of 4gates into the ground, and the increased blink research time.
Which ironically is giving me a great win% with blink timings since the patch. =P
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On October 05 2011 02:54 galzohar wrote:
If this can't stop a 4gate, can this still be used effectively upon scouting non-4gate builds?
4-gates are pretty easy to stop. Build Zealot-Stalker-Sentry with your first gateway. If you sniff a 4-gate coming, get another 1 or 2 Sentries. A forcefield anywhere on your ramp will now deny high ground vision (and high ground warpins as well). Continue forcefielding while you build up your phoenix count and then go wreck his mineral line.
I would like to re-iterate the OP's advised number of phoenix. 5 is best pvp. With 5 phoenix, you one shot sentries, and two shot zealots. This allows your phoenii to get in and out a lot faster even under fire.
I haven't done this yet, but when I do I will be using a 2-gate into stargate. With an aggressive 2-gate, I tend to get a very good read on what my opponent is doing and can better respond. My units produced will be stalker, as my stalker finished my second gate is done warping in, and I build a zealot and a sentry, then another zealot and a sentry so I end up with 2 zealots, 2 sentries and one stalker. With a couple chronoboosts on WGR that finishes right when my last set of zealot sentry pops, and I can warpin whatever I need at that point.
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On October 05 2011 03:24 NtroP wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 02:54 galzohar wrote:
If this can't stop a 4gate, can this still be used effectively upon scouting non-4gate builds? This allows your phoenii to get in and out a lot faster even under fire.
If 'Phoenii' is the plural, then it stands to reason that Phoenus is the singular.
This makes the rest of your sentence even more amusing.
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Google turned up results for it, but my spelling checker didn't like it. In the end I just grabbed my balls (one in each hand) and went for it.
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On October 05 2011 02:54 galzohar wrote:
If this can't stop a 4gate, can this still be used effectively upon scouting non-4gate builds?
nearly anything that has a sentry will hold a 4gate since the 1.4 patch, as long as you don't misplace a forcefield.
this guide was made back when vision from lowground extended further up ramps and you were able to warp in units offensively on ramps. You now can't do that, so forcefields basically guarantee you cannot be touched.
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I've been using this build exclusively in PvP once I found this thread; now I thoroughly enjoy PvP with phoenix play when I used to hate PvP with a passion. 4 sentries will guarantee your safety from 4gate, 3 stalker rush, blah blah until they have blink and vision, but by then you will have zealot sentry phoenix and possibly 1 or 2 void rays and possibly charge. Phoenixes force stalkers so you can go chargelot with great efficiency paired with lifting excess stalkers with phoenix. Colossi balls get destroyed by phoenix voidray chargelot sentry.
Early double gas also forces many to respond with robo because of dt tech suspicion in the current metagame. Great advantage because stargate is infinitely effective against robo tech.
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it's a good build, but after trying it a few times and failing at it miserably I can tell you it is not for protoss's with bad micro.
If your edge in your matchup is your macro and strategic/tactical decisionmaking as opposed to your micro then don't use this build.
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On October 05 2011 17:29 Selendis wrote:
it's a good build, but after trying it a few times and failing at it miserably I can tell you it is not for protoss's with bad micro.
If your edge in your matchup is your macro and strategic/tactical decisionmaking as opposed to your micro then don't use this build.
Its not so much for people with good micro but for people with good multitasking.
Controlling phoenixes is extremely demanding...when you are actually doing stuff with them, there is literally no point at which you can move away from them to macro.
To keep them safe you have to keep a close eye on them to be wary of anti-air, to keep them dangerous you have to keep them moving and to actually do anything offensively with them you need to be actively lifting units to kill them. This means that you cannot simply sit them over a base to attack, even if its undefended.
For this reason, you need both very good multitasking, and also very good mouse precision. You need to be able to switch to the phoenixes, quickly lift several units to kill them (which means you need to be able to click quickly and accurately), and then switch back to your base to do a couple macro things, which again requires quick and precise mouse control.
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I have much problems with that build. After my phoenixes killed some probes, my opposite attacks me. I have 3 gates and researched charge. But most time i loose. What do i make wrong? After 5 phoenixes i stop producing them. Thx 4 Help
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On October 08 2011 00:24 Betschi wrote:I have much problems with that build. After my phoenixes killed some probes, my opposite attacks me. I have 3 gates and researched charge. But most time i loose. What do i make wrong? After 5 phoenixes i stop producing them. Thx 4 Help
Why are you getting charge? Getting 2 immortals for that gas will be much more useful. Zealot/sentry/immortal should hold very well and if you help with phoenixes lifting sentries and stalkers then you should have no trouble defending...
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Thx for answer. I will try that with the immortals. So 2 Gate Stargate the Robo. Lets see what happens
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Its senselss. I cant win with that tactic. Can anyone send me a replay? Thx
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don't go 2gate stargate robo, the protoss 111 is proven to be only so good, and only against certain things. Mostly not protoss. Methy- just a thing, have a terrible ancient computer that lag spikes when people walk in my vision (it's great) so i figured i'd let you know my trick. When it's that FF time and you know you need to be watching but you also need to be macroing, i just send a worker to outside my ramp and when he dies you get a little warning.
PvP is really becoming a rock paper scissors at my level at least. Stargate tops Robo which tops gateway which tops Stargate. It's kinda great really
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I gave it up with the phoenixes. I go back to the archon build. My platin level is too bad for the phoenixes 
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Incredibly powerful build. I have been using a 3gate stargate build PvP and have a 100% win rate with it versus fellow masters players.
It holds 4gate, as you have the potential to produce enough sentries to hold it, and even get out robo tech fast enough to produce the anti-4gate immortal.
It wrecks colossi and immortal pushes, as well as gaining you terrific harass opportunity.
Against blink stalkers its still very powerful, as you can force retreats through harass, and defend with zealots. Plus, the phoenixes force stalkers, and the transition out of PvP stargate builds is chargelots. Perfect setup, if you can execute it properly and harass enough.
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What kind of timings are you guys getting for your 5th phoenix? I'm pretty bad with doing build orders by-the-book, so I can't tell you what I have out when, just that I'm usually about 7:30 with 5 phoenix, 6-8 zealots, 2 sentries, and it just feels late (I expand when I start harass).
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I've played against this, and since I go DTs if I scout 2 gas, the people who tried this on me just rolled over and died one way or another. It's really weak against templar tech play.
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On October 05 2011 02:54 galzohar wrote:
If this can't stop a 4gate, can this still be used effectively upon scouting non-4gate builds?
This can hold a 4 gate. the problem it had when the build was created was that it required 2 FF's to hold the ramp to prevent warp-ins. You can FF the ramp forever with this build now though. The only way they could get up the ramp would be to build a stargate, or a robo, or research hallucinate and get a sentry so they can see up it. All of these take a while, and your phoenix comes out before 7 minutes, which means you can scout this and react accordingly. Even if they do get sight up the ramp it will be so late that you can hold it with the army you've built, and most people will give up the 4 gate once they see the endless FFs. Once that happens it's time to start your harass.
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I have a slight variation with the 2g stargate where I get 1 zealot 2 stalkers early on, (or even open with the 3g stalker rush) and transition into the pheonix play. I've been using this in custom games for about a month now and the only problem I have is holding off a delayed 4g push. That is when they wait 2-3 warpins before pushing up your ramp. This hits when you have about 2-3 pheonix out, and if they have 5-6 zealots in their composition it is very difficult to hold.
I use this build on ranked games when my opponent goes 3stalker rush or takes a second gas earlier then normal and I suspect immortal or fast tech colossus play, or if I scout heavy zealot / immortal composition.
As for the builds biggest weakness... mass zealots. Usually my opponent scouts with the observer and notices I have 5-6 pheonix and immediately they say 'oh no i need anti air!! i gotta get those stalkers producing'. When that happens I hit a timing attack and 90% of the time win right there. If they build zealots (more cost effective, cheaper, absorb more pheonix fire) There comes a point where my pheonix will run out of energy and I will get simply overran.
Replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?hrucgq2exoqqawu
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On October 09 2011 01:00 DanceSC wrote:As for the builds biggest weakness... mass zealots. Usually my opponent scouts with the observer and notices I have 5-6 pheonix and immediately they say 'oh no i need anti air!! i gotta get those stalkers producing'. When that happens I hit a timing attack and 90% of the time win right there. If they build zealots (more cost effective, cheaper, absorb more pheonix fire) There comes a point where my pheonix will run out of energy and I will get simply overran. Replay: http://www.mediafire.com/?hrucgq2exoqqawu
If he's massing zealots why aren't you just sniping the zealots? If that's all he's making it's much better than trying to snipe his economy because he has nothing to prevent you from expanding all you want. It would appear to me that a heavy zealot army is exactly what you're hoping for.
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On October 08 2011 00:39 julius33 wrote:
Why are you getting charge? Getting 2 immortals for that gas will be much more useful. Zealot/sentry/immortal should hold very well and if you help with phoenixes lifting sentries and stalkers then you should have no trouble defending...
If he's doing this build he probably has a lot of zealots in his mix, so it makes sense to get the upgrade that benefits them the most.
From what I've experienced only having 5 phoenix leaves you pretty dry for available lifts. I feel that phoenix get stronger in larger numbers much like mutalisks. Basically, the chances that a phoenix has energy when X attack arrives is better the more phoenix you get. If you have 5 phoenix and none of them have energy you have a lot of dead weight. If you have 10 phoenix there is a much higher chance that a couple of them will have enough energy for lifts by the time they get to the battle. The obvious side effect being that you have to be even more diligent with your harass when you have so much tied up in your air.
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Great build, fun to play and not so standard.
I`ve started getting a robotics after stargate, because 80% of the time my opponents have been going heavy stalkers upon seeing the phoenixes, so pumping immortals has been very effective.
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On October 08 2011 00:24 Betschi wrote:I have much problems with that build. After my phoenixes killed some probes, my opposite attacks me. I have 3 gates and researched charge. But most time i loose. What do i make wrong? After 5 phoenixes i stop producing them. Thx 4 Help
Could we see a replay?
What does your opponent attack with? If it's any sort of Stalker / Robo tech, you should shut it down so that it isn't even close. If it's blink, with somewhat clever engagements you can do the same if you have Charge.
Are you using Phoenixes in battle? Are you expanding? Is he expanding?
I'm really interested in the replay, seeing that what you do is pretty much what I do in PvP most of the time nowadays, and it works fine for me.
Cutting Phoenix production at 5 might be your problem actually (barring any macro/control problems). I know it can feel scary to build a lot of them, but a lot of people underestimate how good they are in battle vs a ground army in a decent number.
When you only have 5, and you're using energy to kill Probes on top of that, there really isn't much they can do for you in battles and can feel kinda wasteful.
On October 08 2011 10:20 Tatari wrote:
I've played against this, and since I go DTs if I scout 2 gas, the people who tried this on me just rolled over and died one way or another. It's really weak against templar tech play.
What is your DT timing?
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On October 08 2011 00:24 Betschi wrote:I have much problems with that build. After my phoenixes killed some probes, my opposite attacks me. I have 3 gates and researched charge. But most time i loose. What do i make wrong? After 5 phoenixes i stop producing them. Thx 4 Help
First off don't stop at 5 phoenix. 5 is a horrible number because realistically in a fight you can pick up one or 2 units. I would personally stop at around 8. You may be trying to tech too hard though. In a fight you would want to pick up stuff in the order GS sentries>immortals>zealots>stalkers>sentries. As you are going phoenix, you want to end up with a zealot advantage on the ground. With a small fleet of phoenix you can take small groups of units out of the fight and kill them extremely quickly. With only 5 you'll take 1-2 units out, and you won't kill them particularly quickly either. Phoenix are kind of a snowball unit in that way.
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Tyler is doing this build on his stream right now btw.
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does anyone have replays of them (or their opponent) executing this well?
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Axslav uses Phoenixes in PvP quite a bit, you should watch his stream, friendo. Also, I've actually heard that it's better to pick up all the zealots in a big engagement because it allows your zealots to be a far more effective meat shield and zealots are light so they get killed by phoenix quickly. Do you always pick up the stalkers, OP?
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On the note of Axslav. Usually whenever Axslav engages he uses about half of his phoenixes for lift. So if he has 8 phoenixes he will do 3 to 4 lifts. This reduces alot of the dps of the opponents army in the early midgame and midgame and still allows the phoenixes to attack.
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EPT
