EPTAnd true it isn't all in at all.
[H] TvZ Seige Expand - Page 2
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
And true it isn't all in at all. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5913 Posts
You actually float ~200 minerals before you actually start to getting units and then ~50 when you are actually getting units so trying for gas before rax might be a good idea. In addition, if you could figure out a way to speed up your push 1 minute to 30 seconds earlier, you can probably hit when zerg has recovered from losing ovies but before mutas are out. | ||
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Runair
United States49 Posts
On February 06 2011 15:32 ChuckJagoda wrote: Cant wait to try that build out tomorrow ^^ Yeah you probably know better than ROOT.Drewbie, it's not like he's a progamer or anything; his opinion is essentially invalidated because it doesnt match yours. Posts like this is why there are so few pro posts in this section of the forum Pro players can make wrong decisions all the time, they always talk about how they know so little about the game since it's so new and there's so many strats that have been unexplored. Why don't you try to explain or test why you can't siege expand and harass? Instead of blindly following good players. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
The more I run it, the more I hammer out the build. As ASM said -- it's not at ALL an all in. If you want, it can be. Forgo tanks and get a reactor fac reactor port reactor rax and push with all scvs hellion viking marine and win with that push. However, as I run it, it's a very, very strong 1 base push that gains map control so they can't see it coming until it's a bit late. Hellions keep slings near their base, vikings keep OLs near queens, and if they do scout your ramp they see the reactor port and rax -- but they're already eating 4 vikings so they KNOW reactor port. The thing is, if I see hatch before pool, I know my 4 hellions are going to cause damage enough until speed comes that the short 30 seconds inbetween hellion harass and viking harass leaves the zerg no chance to recover. A lower master zerg friend of mine, whos faced this 6 times now and not beaten it once says it's the scariest open he's faced. Because even if he stops the harass of hellions, he can't get into your base. I've faced a 1 base slingbling bust, and stopped it just because the hellions clean up the slings and you can just drop port to block the new whole. What does hurt is roach rushing. But, they can't afford to leave their base alone, so they HAVE to put spines, which means less roaches, and an even slower lair. If they roach rush, they can't do enough damage to stop the 4-8 marines with scvs and a wall, ya know? Pro players can make wrong decisions all the time, they always talk about how they know so little about the game since it's so new and there's so many strats that have been unexplored. Why don't you try to explain or test why you can't siege expand and harass? Instead of blindly following good players. Because sling bling will over run you. If you expo, and get siege tanks, you won't have many marines + bunkers, or enough tanks to stop a solid 2 base sling bling bust, let along if they roach sling bling. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5913 Posts
On February 07 2011 05:08 iAmJeffReY wrote: What does hurt is roach rushing. But, they can't afford to leave their base alone, so they HAVE to put spines, which means less roaches, and an even slower lair. If they roach rush, they can't do enough damage to stop the 4-8 marines with scvs and a wall, ya know? You should be able to hold a Roach Rush with bunker repair on maps with good natural chokes. You know, now that I think about it, why don't you instead of popping out 2 sets of vikings, pop a pair of vikings and then a viking/medivac pair. I'm not sure you actually need 4 vikings. You can do marine or hellion drop like the PookieMonster's build because the hellions force spines at the front. It'll give your hellions something to do like hose the lings off your vikings. So basically the timings would be. Reactored Hellions -> Kill Ovies to force Ovie production -> Drop hellions/marines in main and land vikings? I have a feeling this would screw up the zerg's game timings enough that your big push rolls him. | ||
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RukKus
United States197 Posts
I find that when I create Vikings to scout the map, is there a certain pattern that overlords travel? I find myself wandering all over trying to find overlords, maybe only killing one (two if lucky) before the engagement. This allows a larger army production by Zerg prior to the big push (even though the push still owns them). How do you scout with your vikings? | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
ASM -- 4 vikings for 1 specific reason. 4 x 12 > 45. They one hit workers. That way you can studder step vikings into mineral lines and work off drones one by one very very fast. And all that while, my 5th viking and first medic are building. Sometimes I double medic, sometimes I 1 viking 1 medic, it's all feeling based really. And if they spine up, I have siege tanks just for that very reason. Spines fall in 1 volley from a army that size with the DPS and tanks backing. | ||
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RukKus
United States197 Posts
Thanks for the amazing answers. This build is giving my multitasking a workout as I attempt intricate hellion/viking micro while macroing a big army and doing swaps! | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
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RukKus
United States197 Posts
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NewbieOne
Poland560 Posts
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Antisocialmunky
United States5913 Posts
On February 07 2011 08:03 iAmJeffReY wrote: Yes there are very specific overlord spots. There's a thread on it somewhere, I can't remember where. ASM -- 4 vikings for 1 specific reason. 4 x 12 > 45. They one hit workers. That way you can studder step vikings into mineral lines and work off drones one by one very very fast. And all that while, my 5th viking and first medic are building. Sometimes I double medic, sometimes I 1 viking 1 medic, it's all feeling based really. And if they spine up, I have siege tanks just for that very reason. Spines fall in 1 volley from a army that size with the DPS and tanks backing. That's cool though I'm sure 3 Vikings + multiple hellions in the back of zerg's base would work atleast as well. Especially because vikings do not pursue. Anyway, you should make your own thread. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
I got two more examples of the build vs a rather ehhhhh 2600 zerg master ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-187200.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-187201.jpg) I've found it work great on xelnaga, scrap, metalopolis, shakuras (hellions not so hot but they force spines) Delta definitely. Maps with a choke I haven't had much work on with it yet, as I'm still hammering out the fine timings. OL hunting on temple will be a dream though, hellions maybe not so hot of a harass. But, by taking map control, you've secured an expansion safely with heavy heavy pressure to force a lot of units and unnecessary spinecrawlers etc. Anyway, you should make your own thread. lol I'm thinking about it. But then I'm afraid it'll catch on, and I'll become like kcdc was a while back where EVERY terran knew he was gonna 1 gate FE. I'd hate to face every zerg and not be able to use my favorite build! Haha, but tomorrow after work I'm going to try and type out some of the finer details and timings I've worked on. I don't seem to have many GOOD examples vs good zergs beyond my prac partner synthetiq. I have another roach rushing friend i'm going to try and run it on (hes never seen it) but he's 3k to see if it's as strong as I think it is. | ||
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Praxis1452
41 Posts
On February 07 2011 09:55 iAmJeffReY wrote: At the same time that I hope most zergs don't know about it, I feel like this is opener is too strong to be ignored.No, not as of lately. I didn't get a chance to play today, had to put my mailbox back in the ground after a truck ran it over -_- and work on my clutch on my Si. Crappy day. And last night my little bit of laddering was a successful 4 TvT's and 1 somehow 1-1-1 bunker rush on a zerg that won the game in 7 minutes lol I got two more examples of the build vs a rather ehhhhh 2600 zerg master I've found it work great on xelnaga, scrap, metalopolis, shakuras (hellions not so hot but they force spines) Delta definitely. Maps with a choke I haven't had much work on with it yet, as I'm still hammering out the fine timings. OL hunting on temple will be a dream though, hellions maybe not so hot of a harass. But, by taking map control, you've secured an expansion safely with heavy heavy pressure to force a lot of units and unnecessary spinecrawlers etc. lol I'm thinking about it. But then I'm afraid it'll catch on, and I'll become like kcdc was a while back where EVERY terran knew he was gonna 1 gate FE. I'd hate to face every zerg and not be able to use my favorite build! Haha, but tomorrow after work I'm going to try and type out some of the finer details and timings I've worked on. I don't seem to have many GOOD examples vs good zergs beyond my prac partner synthetiq. I have another roach rushing friend i'm going to try and run it on (hes never seen it) but he's 3k to see if it's as strong as I think it is. I did lose to a roach/hydra rush off 2 or 1 bases. He expanded at the gold on SS and I didn't scout it I think. That or he went 1 base roach/hydra which tbh I scouted, I just didn't bring my scv's to repair in time. Anyway, I finally beat my masters friend who is zerg as a diamond T. I never beat him before or really even came close, but this all-in actually worked incredibly well. I even floated 800 mins for a while. | ||
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Lezt
United States115 Posts
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
2 viking pop, split into (for me) 2 and 3, go seperate ways, pop 2 OLs and then the new queen starts, all OLs get pulled in. Land on high ground, run in pop the queen, hellion up the ramp if you got the ability or no spines. It's just so dirty of a timing for such a big army. Someone asked why I brought the SCVs in a PM. The medic heals the marines/scv. SCV autorepair obviously keeps tank/viking/medic/hellion alive MUCH longer. That 75-90 food ball that hits at 10-10:30 has too high of a DPS plus healing to be dealt with out losing a substaincial amount of units/OL/queen/spines/expo to compensate for the SCV pull. By CCing in base, you can secure a very safe expansion. I used to HATEEEE scrap. Now, if I'm gonna prac vs a zerg for the first time, I give em scrap and just work 'em, to make the coming game on metalopolis be a brutal ass kicking (for me =( =( ) | ||
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On February 07 2011 04:55 Flyinspageti wrote: Pro players can make wrong decisions all the time, they always talk about how they know so little about the game since it's so new and there's so many strats that have been unexplored. Why don't you try to explain or test why you can't siege expand and harass? Instead of blindly following good players. Because you're spending all your gas on tanks and unless you're planning on "harassing" with pure rines, you can't afford to get any other gas unit while siege expanding. The onus is on you to provide one unit that can harass zerg efficiently. | ||
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Praxis1452
41 Posts
On February 07 2011 11:49 iAmJeffReY wrote: It's like rediculous on scrap. if you harass at all decently, and pop the expo queen, by the time I retreat with vikings, I'm already through the rocks on my side, with the scvs just getting pulled to land the vikings and repair as I bust through their rocks. No OLs without speed, with 4 vikings out flying will try to regain map control of the middle rocks, nor the air inbetween. I do a pattern, as any terran would as all zergs place OLs at expo, middle, lower tower, side top of their base, sometimes the island, sometimes middle of the two bases. 2 viking pop, split into (for me) 2 and 3, go seperate ways, pop 2 OLs and then the new queen starts, all OLs get pulled in. Land on high ground, run in pop the queen, hellion up the ramp if you got the ability or no spines. It's just so dirty of a timing for such a big army. Someone asked why I brought the SCVs in a PM. The medic heals the marines/scv. SCV autorepair obviously keeps tank/viking/medic/hellion alive MUCH longer. That 75-90 food ball that hits at 10-10:30 has too high of a DPS plus healing to be dealt with out losing a substaincial amount of units/OL/queen/spines/expo to compensate for the SCV pull. By CCing in base, you can secure a very safe expansion. I used to HATEEEE scrap. Now, if I'm gonna prac vs a zerg for the first time, I give em scrap and just work 'em, to make the coming game on metalopolis be a brutal ass kicking (for me =( =( ) I have to ask because my macro hasn't been perfect, can you produce out of the factory and the starport? | ||
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HumbleHuman
United States7 Posts
Tried it on blistering sands and it destroyed the guy, even though hellion openings generally suck on that map. Props. | ||
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ChuckJagoda
United States27 Posts
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