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Turgid
United States1623 Posts
On January 16 2011 11:34 Orlando Mavado wrote: Not sure if Magic Box is possible with Void Rays considering they have such slow speed. I think it is to a limited degree, though manual spreading might turn out to be more effective. Carriers are still probably a better solution. | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
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CortoMontez
Australia608 Posts
However, voids are far more viable against thors after their damage buff vs massive, and if spread out (manually), they take little damage from thors, since they take no bonus damage. Also, I'm surprised collosii haven't been mentioned as a way of dealing with thors, since with their greater range and speed, they can easily kite thors. | ||
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TehForce
1072 Posts
The only viable units of terran against mass carrier are mass marine or mass vikings. both get owned by storm very hard. gsl-spoiler: + Show Spoiler + if you have carrier but no high templar you are pretty easy defeated as you could see in todays games between jinro and mc. vikings owned the carriers and thors killed the rest. if mc had hts he could have killed that viking ball so his carriers could actually do sth. | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
Also, I'm surprised collosii haven't been mentioned as a way of dealing with thors Colossus were mentioned, a couple of times. Having seen the mess Void Rays make of 30 thors, however, I'm not sure Colossus is the way to go. VRs build faster, can't be hit by 250mm cannon, leave you with oodles of food to make HT's to deal with marine/scv support, and require no micro. | ||
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Orlando Mavado
20 Posts
Sounds like you told them to attack the Thors. Don't. In the unit tester, make 30 thors (180 food) and 35 void rays (105 food). Make sure VRs are allowed to 'settle' properly (spaced out). Select all the void rays and click beyond the thors. Do not under any circumstances a-move. Notice the VRs start firing and charging up even while moving. Hit 'h' when the void rays are centred over the thors. Void rays win easily. Same applies with 3/3 upgrades (no upgraded shields): about 10 VRs left over. Just tried it and I'm stunned... I did two tests Both sides 3/3 3/3/3 upgrades Once again 30 Thors vs. 60 Void Rays, no micro, attack-moving. Result: Thors win with 19 remaining. Than the second test, involving half that number of Void Rays but doing the Magic Box. 30 Thors vs. 30 Void Rays Result: Void Rays win with 7 remaining Magic Box is a serious glitch that needs to be patched out as it completely negates the effectiveness of combined splash. | ||
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esla_sol
United States756 Posts
more realistically they will be 1/0/0 or 2/0/0 fighting thors with armor and attack upgrades. but that is a little off topic. the key to beating mech has and always will be its immobility. close spawns on some maps kinda shit all over this, but its certainly resonable to overexpand and tech to whatever you want, if the map allows. void rays are great because they can attack from a variety of different angles. if he is mass thors you never really need to engage the army. even if he is sitting on your doorstep, unless you know you can just plow through (huge food advantage) no real reason to fight. you can always base trade in these scenarios which is better for you (since you should be more spread out around the map, and can rebuild prodcution easier than terran). | ||
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Alsn
Sweden995 Posts
On January 16 2011 12:33 Orlando Mavado wrote: That has to be most profoundly erroneous conclusion I have ever seen made on this forum. You are seriously trying to make the argument that void rays, an armored flying unit can cost effectively kill mass thors if they are microed and as such magic box has to be fixed? The very same thor that cost effectively absolutely dominates every single protoss ground unit? Even disregarding the fact that your "solution" would completely and utterly break the ZvT matchup why in the world would you ever suggest to fix a skill based maneouver instead of changing the unit itself?Just tried it and I'm stunned... I did two tests Both sides 3/3 3/3/3 upgrades Once again 30 Thors vs. 60 Void Rays, no micro, attack-moving. Result: Thors win with 19 remaining. Than the second test, involving half that number of Void Rays but doing the Magic Box. 30 Thors vs. 30 Void Rays Result: Void Rays win with 7 remaining Magic Box is a serious glitch that needs to be patched out as it completely negates the effectiveness of combined splash. Did perhaps the "void rays now do 20% bonus damage to massive units" not clue you in as to what the point of the void ray was supposed to be? Maybe you misunderstood when you read the thor AA missile damage description where it states that they do a bonus to light units? Seriously, go back to the WoW forums and demand nerfs because you are getting owned by warriors, or whichever class it's fashionable to complain about these days and leave the TL strategy forum to people who would like to discuss, you know, strategy. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8122 Posts
On January 16 2011 12:43 esla_sol wrote: in a real game voids will never be 3/3/3 more realistically they will be 1/0/0 or 2/0/0 fighting thors with armor and attack upgrades. but that is a little off topic. the key to beating mech has and always will be its immobility. close spawns on some maps kinda shit all over this, but its certainly resonable to overexpand and tech to whatever you want, if the map allows. void rays are great because they can attack from a variety of different angles. if he is mass thors you never really need to engage the army. even if he is sitting on your doorstep, unless you know you can just plow through (huge food advantage) no real reason to fight. you can always base trade in these scenarios which is better for you (since you should be more spread out around the map, and can rebuild prodcution easier than terran). But heres the thing. Without siege tanks, Thors are actually quite mobile. Sure, they're not speedlings, but its still going to be hard to counterattack, drop, and the usual jazz when he can very simply just a-move into your base and kill you. The other problem is that the only real mobile unit that protoss have (except for air) is stalkers, which arent exactly an optimal unit to use vs thors. I guess, if you're good, you can abuse mobility vs thors on huge maps. But on close position on Delta Quadrant? | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On January 16 2011 12:11 TheOracle wrote: Because the point of the thread is looking at how to counter mass thors. Therefore 20-30 thors is exactly the point, and this is to test how well VRs do against them. I'm not sure Guardian Shield factors in well, because it's so easily destroyed with a little micro. Without having tested this, are we so sure that massing a single unit is the best option flat out? Part of their strength is the idea of critical mass and how much damage they put out at range. Also upgrades, does a certain number of armour upgrades that add another round of shots required to kill a key unit? I somehow doubt the point of the thread is what happens in a completely unrealistic, hypothetical scenario that provides absolutely no useful information to improving one's game. | ||
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Liquidspoison
United Kingdom119 Posts
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eth3n
718 Posts
On January 16 2011 12:33 Orlando Mavado wrote: Magic Box is a serious glitch that needs to be patched out as it completely negates the effectiveness of combined splash. This sounds very objective coming from the guy who admits he does nothing by mass thor 25 minute timing push in every single one of his games | ||
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Setev
Malaysia390 Posts
On January 16 2011 17:04 Liquidspoison wrote: Voids rays nuff said. 20% more damage against massive. yesh plz. yeah splash damage rapes em but still. you can make voids alot quicker then thors. Exactly. 20% extra damage on the Thors by voids, in addition to being totally outmaneuvered by the flying units. | ||
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CrumpetGuvnor
Australia302 Posts
On January 16 2011 12:33 Orlando Mavado wrote: Just tried it and I'm stunned... I did two tests Both sides 3/3 3/3/3 upgrades Once again 30 Thors vs. 60 Void Rays, no micro, attack-moving. Result: Thors win with 19 remaining. Than the second test, involving half that number of Void Rays but doing the Magic Box. 30 Thors vs. 30 Void Rays Result: Void Rays win with 7 remaining Magic Box is a serious glitch that needs to be patched out as it completely negates the effectiveness of combined splash. Haha this is the best thing I've ever read on this site. The one cheap bullshit strategy that he uses to get into the master league gets countered and he calls it a glitch | ||
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Arcanewinds
United Kingdom197 Posts
I'm glad that people have found something to kill late game toss without EMP luck. | ||
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blitzkrieger
United States512 Posts
Personally if you do not kill him with blink/stalkers I would get chargelots and either DT or Void Ray. Unless he saves scans DTs will work since he wont have gas for ravens. If he did save scan his eco will be pretty far behind. Void Rays are also good except they must be spread AND attack the same thor preferably. And marines counter them which only cost minerals. Chargelots are good tanks, fast, do good damage, easy to reproduce, and beat factory units (including hellions sort of). Its quick to get DTs from here and he wont likely have Starport or gas for ravens. | ||
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blitzkrieger
United States512 Posts
On January 16 2011 12:48 Alsn wrote: That has to be most profoundly erroneous conclusion I have ever seen made on this forum. You are seriously trying to make the argument that void rays, an armored flying unit can cost effectively kill mass thors if they are microed and as such magic box has to be fixed? The very same thor that cost effectively absolutely dominates every single protoss ground unit? Even disregarding the fact that your "solution" would completely and utterly break the ZvT matchup why in the world would you ever suggest to fix a skill based maneouver instead of changing the unit itself? Did perhaps the "void rays now do 20% bonus damage to massive units" not clue you in as to what the point of the void ray was supposed to be? Maybe you misunderstood when you read the thor AA missile damage description where it states that they do a bonus to light units? Seriously, go back to the WoW forums and demand nerfs because you are getting owned by warriors, or whichever class it's fashionable to complain about these days and leave the TL strategy forum to people who would like to discuss, you know, strategy. Dude he is either stupid or a troll dont bother arguing with him... Magic box makes TvZ possible. You sacrifice FF for Increased survivability, which is countered by not relying on splash (marines). | ||
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
colossi beat thors 1:1 once you get enough, like approx. 6. and that's what you're concerned with, higher numbers. | ||
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PaPoolee
Netherlands660 Posts
On January 16 2011 11:03 BeMannerDuPenner wrote: yeah why not storm. big thor balls are close together and are so slow that they take guaranteed full dmg. and if you play zeal/immortal heavy you should have quite some gas left for HTs. also totally denies any marine or scv support, is great against banshees/air and great vs evrything. Some Terran did this to me at 2.9k diamond before patch came out by a week, it was on steppes! he took his natural after i took mine and started going siege + MASS thors, he had like 5 siege tanks positioned in his base so i couldn't attack, not with bunkers there and such! so i took my third, saturated it and when my main was mined out i took my gold expansion... i went pure chargelot immortal ht's with 3/3 and we engaged in the middle! needless to say i got roflstomped and he ended up with about 160 food left i'd imagine! (i was on 3 base + one gold) he was on 3 and he took his third as i took my 4th. | ||
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Zacsafus
England255 Posts
On January 16 2011 12:33 Orlando Mavado wrote: Just tried it and I'm stunned... I did two tests Both sides 3/3 3/3/3 upgrades Once again 30 Thors vs. 60 Void Rays, no micro, attack-moving. Result: Thors win with 19 remaining. Than the second test, involving half that number of Void Rays but doing the Magic Box. 30 Thors vs. 30 Void Rays Result: Void Rays win with 7 remaining Magic Box is a serious glitch that needs to be patched out as it completely negates the effectiveness of combined splash. In fact i believe that magic box adds more skill to the game, the only bad part to it is that it makes thors completely worthless as anti air against anything. For example against zerg if they magic box their mutas, thors actually do less damage than a single stimmed marine because their splash isnt hitting anything. The splash on the thors is to jsut punish bad micro, kind of makes it a game changing factor, meaning micro can have a huge impact on a fight. Only problem is that magic box is pretty easy to do :S Gief thors valkyrie attacks plz!!! | ||
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