|
On January 23 2011 02:07 Mercury- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2011 22:20 Excludos wrote:On January 18 2011 11:08 Mercury- wrote:
Watched on max speed, some cliff notes:
- terrible army composition, never go that stalker heavy vs Terran
- questionable macro decisions, 3 forges instead of going for stuff like carriers
- zero pressure on the Terran
- not enough expansions (he was even/ahead on expos while doing a Thor build... that should never happen)
- you let him come to you and engaged at your nat, leaving you no option to rebuild your army Army composition is something that has come up a lot. Can't but agree on that. With my leftover gas, I could have gone both carriers and 3 forges.. This is about playstyles, and I do not feel like I lost because I didn't try to drop vs his 50 turrets that where spread around his base.. You can't really pressure a meching terran on that map. He was never ahead on expoes? I expanded earlier than him both times. When he attacked, we where both on 3 bases, yes. But thats because I felt that he was going for a 200/200 attack and didn't feel safe expanding again. I probably should have, thought.. This is a very terran'ish though process. "I am going to attack and then rebuild my army". This does not work with protoss who is dependent on the collosus/immortas or whatnot you have to make outside of the gateway. Since he attacked me, I had the upper hand with that I could warp inn reinforcements right into the battle (Which, if you had slowed down, you'd see that I warped in 12 stalkers in the back. Since the marines was dead, I should probably have gone with zealots instead) Again, not saying I didn't do mistakes, god no. But I think you are a bit off because we have different playstyles  Um that's how you combat Thors, it's not a question of playstyles. You expo around the map because his army is too immobile and relies on critical mass. Then you try to engage him as far away from your own base as possible as soon as you see an opening. Your army will most likely get killed but he will take heavy losses, you then instantrebuild with WGates + whatever robo and SGates you have and finish him off. This is how it works with Zerg too except Zerg can need up to 4 waves sometimes because their units suck in high numbers.
Thats where I was getting at. Gateway units are the worst units in the game for their cost, and you can't make your entire army on only them. Everyone knows this, and this is why you will see collosus, air units or templars in a game that runs longer than 14 minutes. If you kill your entire army as terran, you can bundle up another army of marines and marauders in your main, and you're good to go. If you lose your entire army as zerg, you can click on whatever hotkey you use for hatcheries, make whatever unit you want, and have a new army to use within seconds.
If you lose your entire army as protoss, you can NOT click on your waprgates and warp in 40 stalkers/zealots and attack again. Your army might cost the same as the one you just lost, but it will instantly die to anything the other 2 races can make. You need those T2/3 units, and they take a lot of time to make. This is why you can't just suicide your army, kill all of his marines, make more gateway units, and attack again.
With all due respect, this is basics. Every protoss knows this. That is why I hinted that this is "a very terran way to think".
|
On January 16 2011 11:50 Orlando Mavado wrote:Show nested quote +I'm assuming that the void rays got shot down by splash because they didn't have time to spread out. Also, did you engage in a choke? Engaged on that platform thing, both armies attack-moving no micro. The Thors were actually at a disadvantage because I didn't have 20 SCVs with them, so no repairing.
Attack moving puts VR's at a GIGANTIC disadvantage, press stop on the VRS and then fly them over the thors, I'm sure they'll trash them esp with upgs.
|
Something funny that I know never realistically happens, Zealots are hilariously cost effective versus thors if they surround.... VORTEX AND THEN THROW ALL YOUR ZEALOTS IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!
|
If I went thors the scariest thing I would be afraid of are dt or air like voids or carriers. If you scout with your observer and see thors get a warp prism and warp some dts around his base because if terran goes thors he gonna have very low detection. You would be surprised how fast dts kill thors if they are undetected. Thors biggest weakness is usually air though so I would prefer carriers over voids because the only really counter to carriers are upgraded marines or butt load of vikings which terran won't afford if he goes thors and if he gets butt load of vikings it game over goes you will warp in a ton of zealots which kill vikings pretty fast.
|
upgraded chargelots, HTs and upgraded voidrays should do the trick
|
On January 16 2011 09:17 Orlando Mavado wrote:
Rank 2 Master League Terran here-
I made a post about Mass Thor in TvP, alas the moderators didn't approve of a non-barracks centric strategy so it was closed. Thors are viable and they counter all gateway and robotics units- even Voidrays.
However, Thors have one weakness in TvP: Mass Carriers with High Templar support.
the mods are so bad here. ive seen them make horrible calls time after time after time. TL thrives despite them, not b/c of them. Much like how the US yet thrives despite social programs.
carriers aren't too expensive? a thor-centric build would naturally call for marines or vikings depending on the response of P. wouldn't HT for feedback on thors, as well as storm on possible marine supports be less time costly and with less alternate tech routes? going HT, u can incorporate tossing DT's to use scans.
I feel if u go starport, u want to fight with starport units, if u go gate, u want to fight iwth high tech gate units. HT's seem less risky, and good against marines as well as thors.
btw do thors' attack priority go to air units? one might sprinkle in a few voids or few phoenix to mess with thor AI to bolster your own ground army. assuming u had stargates for some other reason prior of course. u don't nec want to switch just to get a couple of voids or phoenix.
T could throw in banshees as a possibility, and HT's wouldn't be bad against that either.
I wouldn't go colossi to deal with marines. it's too time and investment heavy, and severely reduces the beefiness of your army. HT's are plenty good for marines, do well against thors and potential ravens/banshees, cost less tech, and aren't vulnerable to vikings.
In a nutshell, i'd like to agree with what this guy said
On January 23 2011 07:37 JeanLuc wrote:
upgraded chargelots, HTs and upgraded voidrays should do the trick
|
Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On January 23 2011 07:47 waffling1 wrote:
the mods are so bad here. ive seen them make horrible calls time after time after time. TL thrives despite them, not b/c of them. Much like how the US yet thrives despite social programs.
carriers aren't too expensive? a thor-centric build would naturally call for marines or vikings depending on the response of P. wouldn't HT for feedback on thors, as well as storm on possible marine supports be less time costly and with less alternate tech routes? going HT, u can incorporate tossing DT's to use scans.
Thors don't have energy, so i'm not sure feedback would be the best response to a thor-heavy build.
I do like the idea of air to either provide good damage, or mess with the thor AI. I think Void rays, given the recent buff, should be effective. I'll try this out in a few games against P and see how they respond.
|
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the main benefit that you have all the freaken time in the world to prepare for a mass thor push, plus you have map control. Set up for the inevitable engagement, make sure you get a better concave, and make sure the engagement occurs where you want it to occur.
|
On January 23 2011 09:12 Blazinghand wrote:
I do like the idea of air to either provide good damage, or mess with the thor AI. I think Void rays, given the recent buff, should be effective. I'll try this out in a few games against P and see how they respond.
That would be awesome. Tell me how it goes
|
You can go 4 base 6 robo colossus if he gets exclusively thors. Colossi beat thors since colossi can kite.
|
Or you can be smart.... Mech against protoss sucks for one reason. Hallucinated immortals. I forget whose stream I was watching, but some master league protoss got tank/thor contained on l.t. just like jinro vs MC. He went for a bunch of hallucinated immortals and busted the entire tank marine line and lost like five zealots total.
|
Not sure if someone actually mentioned this little gem but dude did you somehow miss the 25 marauders included in that push?
He had 25 when the battle began and 22 when it was over.
Your army was composed of sentries (nice but against thors pretty useless), 5 immortals (nice but their range sucks pretty badly so they need to be microed carefully which these were not), 2 colossi (far too few to make an impact honestly) 5 zealots (maybe 6 or 7) without charge and 28 stalkers.
Now considering that stalkers are probably the single worst unit in the protoss arsenal to face thors and marauders i guess we can conclude reasonably well that you were building the wrong units.
Once your observer sees him going for a pretty much pure mech, marauder force you should have started building air units. Hell you'd have had enough time to build 8 carriers off 2 base considering how long he waited.
Possible tech paths which might have led to victory: Chargelots (and lots of them, but honestly against a 200 max army i don't think they would get the surface area to do the trick), Colossi (he had 12 thors, you could have had 8 colossi), high templars (considering how he clumped into a tight ball 2 or 3 storms to ruin the marauders would have been nice), Voidrays or carriers (preferrebly void rays tbh).
|
On January 23 2011 10:23 Abstinence wrote:
You can go 4 base 6 robo colossus if he gets exclusively thors. Colossi beat thors since colossi can kite.
Or you could read any of my 20 posts in this thread about how they can't. Once the collosus gets in range of the 250mm canon (and it will, since it has to stand still to fire), the 250mm will get a lock on and fire even if you move the collosus away.
|
On January 23 2011 10:29 Boundless wrote:
Or you can be smart.... Mech against protoss sucks for one reason. Hallucinated immortals. I forget whose stream I was watching, but some master league protoss got tank/thor contained on l.t. just like jinro vs MC. He went for a bunch of hallucinated immortals and busted the entire tank marine line and lost like five zealots total.
Love your thinking. If I had thought of that in the match I uploaded, I could very well have won the attack (seeing as I had like 15 sentries anyways).
Will definitively try this next time
|
I do not mind feedback, but this feels like you trying to be harsh just for the sake of it .
Not trying to be evil, but you didn't lose because of Thors. You didn't MOVE or engage the entire game. You defended poorly against hellions. You didn't get upgrades. You created a poor composition of units. You didn't use FFs in the final battle even though you had close to 60 saved up. You didn't do anything but warp a bunch of guys into a ball and sit there for 18 minutes.
By the sounds of it, you're pretty good. But I think the best thing you can do if you want to improve and get into the more elite ranks is BE HARSH on yourself. This game was simply bad.
I am a Protoss who just got promoted to Master League
With all due respect, this is my standard PvT build, I know how to make it work and how to react to what the terran is doing.
Since your a master league guy wanted to get better, you should look at some pro protoss players and how they play. I like looking an InControl but find someone who's really good and watch how they move around, abuse players, and make changes in their build order.
|
On January 23 2011 11:48 murkk wrote:Show nested quote +I do not mind feedback, but this feels like you trying to be harsh just for the sake of it . Not trying to be evil, but you didn't lose because of Thors. You didn't MOVE or engage the entire game. You defended poorly against hellions. You didn't get upgrades. You created a poor composition of units. You didn't use FFs in the final battle even though you had close to 60 saved up. You didn't do anything but warp a bunch of guys into a ball and sit there for 18 minutes. By the sounds of it, you're pretty good. But I think the best thing you can do if you want to improve and get into the more elite ranks is BE HARSH on yourself. This game was simply bad.
I love being harsh with myself. But I don't like it when people look at your replay and go "mhm, mhm. You suck!", which is how you come out in both of your replies. This is not constructive feedback, this is just ranting.
case in point: "You created a poor composition of units"..now how am I suppose to learn from that? Instead you could go "You should probably have gone voidrays in the midgame", or my favorite reply of this thread so far: "Hallucination", which would have made my sentries a lot more useful.
(and why do you keep saying I didn't use ff? I spammed like 20 of them around, but they disappear right away if they are even remotely close to the thor)
|
case in point: "You created a poor composition of units"..now how am I suppose to learn from that? Instead you could go "You should probably have gone voidrays in the midgame", or my favorite reply of this thread so far: "Hallucination", which would have made my sentries a lot more useful.
The poor unit composition was one of my points, and perhaps the least relevant.
|
I love being harsh with myself. But I don't like it when people look at your replay and go "mhm, mhm. You suck!", which is how you come out in both of your replies. This is not constructive feedback, this is just ranting.
I never said you sucked. I said you played this game poorly. It was bad. I gave specific reasons why. Sorry it wasn't the "void rays are good against carriers and colossus not so much" kinda advice, since I had assumed a master level player would know this.
|
On January 23 2011 11:56 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 11:48 murkk wrote:I do not mind feedback, but this feels like you trying to be harsh just for the sake of it . Not trying to be evil, but you didn't lose because of Thors. You didn't MOVE or engage the entire game. You defended poorly against hellions. You didn't get upgrades. You created a poor composition of units. You didn't use FFs in the final battle even though you had close to 60 saved up. You didn't do anything but warp a bunch of guys into a ball and sit there for 18 minutes. By the sounds of it, you're pretty good. But I think the best thing you can do if you want to improve and get into the more elite ranks is BE HARSH on yourself. This game was simply bad. I love being harsh with myself. But I don't like it when people look at your replay and go "mhm, mhm. You suck!", which is how you come out in both of your replies. This is not constructive feedback, this is just ranting. case in point: "You created a poor composition of units"..now how am I suppose to learn from that? Instead you could go "You should probably have gone voidrays in the midgame", or my favorite reply of this thread so far: "Hallucination", which would have made my sentries a lot more useful. (and why do you keep saying I didn't use ff? I spammed like 20 of them around, but they disappear right away if they are even remotely close to the thor)
I tried to write a constructive critique but it seems you missed it. The two absolutly useless units against thor/marauders are stalkers and sentries. Next time build something else (I'm close to saying ANYTHING else, but that is over the top as well). Also your initial post completly ignored the rather huge marauder army he had.
Frankly those marauders with 2 ghosts and 20 marines to focus fire your immortals would have destroyed you as well.
A heavy stalker mix only works against T if they are blink stalkers against specific builds, as soon as he starts to go for heavy mara you need to switch to zealots/sentries and try to get charge ASAP.
In general you need to play more active. Do something with your units :D Destroy the rocks at your gold and build a base there. Hell if he goes for hardcore turtle build 2-3 bases over the map. Then build more warpgates and when he attacks swarm him with chargelots.
Also pay more attention to your minimap. You should have seen the medivac leave for the first hellion drop, and you definitly should have seen it for the 2nd and 3rd. 3 Stalkers on the ledge behind your natural stop such drops easily (Ps: Delta is probably the best map for blink stalker abuse, make use of such advantadges)
One last specific comment for DQ: If he turtles on 2 base with the backdoor base, run your 2 colossi up there and flame down his workers. He didn't have a single viking (which you knew) to stop that.
|
On January 23 2011 12:48 Tula wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 11:56 Excludos wrote:On January 23 2011 11:48 murkk wrote:I do not mind feedback, but this feels like you trying to be harsh just for the sake of it . Not trying to be evil, but you didn't lose because of Thors. You didn't MOVE or engage the entire game. You defended poorly against hellions. You didn't get upgrades. You created a poor composition of units. You didn't use FFs in the final battle even though you had close to 60 saved up. You didn't do anything but warp a bunch of guys into a ball and sit there for 18 minutes. By the sounds of it, you're pretty good. But I think the best thing you can do if you want to improve and get into the more elite ranks is BE HARSH on yourself. This game was simply bad. I love being harsh with myself. But I don't like it when people look at your replay and go "mhm, mhm. You suck!", which is how you come out in both of your replies. This is not constructive feedback, this is just ranting. case in point: "You created a poor composition of units"..now how am I suppose to learn from that? Instead you could go "You should probably have gone voidrays in the midgame", or my favorite reply of this thread so far: "Hallucination", which would have made my sentries a lot more useful. (and why do you keep saying I didn't use ff? I spammed like 20 of them around, but they disappear right away if they are even remotely close to the thor) I tried to write a constructive critique but it seems you missed it. The two absolutly useless units against thor/marauders are stalkers and sentries. Next time build something else (I'm close to saying ANYTHING else, but that is over the top as well). Also your initial post completly ignored the rather huge marauder army he had. Frankly those marauders with 2 ghosts and 20 marines to focus fire your immortals would have destroyed you as well. A heavy stalker mix only works against T if they are blink stalkers against specific builds, as soon as he starts to go for heavy mara you need to switch to zealots/sentries and try to get charge ASAP. In general you need to play more active. Do something with your units :D Destroy the rocks at your gold and build a base there. Hell if he goes for hardcore turtle build 2-3 bases over the map. Then build more warpgates and when he attacks swarm him with chargelots. Also pay more attention to your minimap. You should have seen the medivac leave for the first hellion drop, and you definitly should have seen it for the 2nd and 3rd. 3 Stalkers on the ledge behind your natural stop such drops easily (Ps: Delta is probably the best map for blink stalker abuse, make use of such advantadges) One last specific comment for DQ: If he turtles on 2 base with the backdoor base, run your 2 colossi up there and flame down his workers. He didn't have a single viking (which you knew) to stop that.
I havent gotten around to replying to you yet. Not sure why you took my reply to him and decided it was pointed to you as well. Infact, I agree completely with everything you've said.
I probably should have mentioned the bio ball in my original post, but I really thought it goes without saying that he would have some bio units togheter with his thors. The problem is that any units that the protoss have to make to survive against mass bio (collosus, immortals) the thors just simply wreck with the 250mm cannon. HT wouldn't be such a bad solution vs the bio, but I am reluctant to see how a few HT in my unit mix would have turned the tide of that battle (Not saying it wouldn't help, but I have tried most unit mixes vs a friend in costum games, and he still tramples me).
And if you want to take care of the thors, who also does quite a large bit of damage, any unit you make (Voidrays, carriers, to a ceertain degree: speedlots) will have their day ruined by the bio ball.
I agree that I probably made the worst unit mix possible in that specific replay. But the matter of the fact is: there is no "good" unit mix vs mass thors + bio..there is only "Less worse".
Everything else you've said I've taken into account. Of course I should have seen the drop, of course I should have defended the drop better, and of course I should have made a lot less stalkers and a lot less sentries. (And I should probably have expanded more often, but he was already dropping me wherever my units wasn't. And for me, while playing, It certainly didn't feel safe expanding again, knowing he could be attacking any second.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
