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I did a quick search, and while there are a few threads on the subject, they are either made by bronze league, or they've been closed because of bad thread.
I am a Protoss who just got promoted to Master League. Today I met this Terran on the ladder who went mass Thors. While he played fairly bad (Not saying I played like a pro either, but I was a good 20 workers ahead of him most of the time), he still managed to slaughter my 200/200 army with massive amounts of Thors.
I decided to try a game vs a friend of mine, letting him get some Thors as well. This time I made a much larger amount of immortals, but the outcome was the same.
While you might want to say that "Well, you shouldn't let him get that many Thors then", its harder done than said. Attacking a meching Terran head on is nearly always a sure way of getting yourself killed. You can't really "dance" around with micro either, seeing as if your units happen to get in range of 250mm cannon, they're dead (which happens once in the included replay).
My biggest problem is that Immortals should be the counter to Thors, but the 250mm cannon practically oneshots both immortals and Collosus, seeing as they are stunned for the 5 seconds it takes to kill them.
Any help with general gameplay is also appreciated, but thats beside the point of this thread 
Replay below
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-181057.jpg)
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Thor's are very slow once you see what he's doing should should be expanding and out macroing him. VR's seem like they would be a good option too.
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I'm not really in a position to give advice or see the replay right now but if your opponent is sitting in his base making thors you should probably take the rest of the map and tech to carriers or somesuch. Hallucinate a bunch of phoenix and fly them in for scouting just in case he isn't massing thors.
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please post the replay to a non-login site
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Thors are slow. All the advice so far is pretty good. VRs and Carriers wouldn't be a bad option. Also dt's would be great against them. Send in 1 or 2 at a time untill he runs out of scans. Then just beat the shit out of him with dts.
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On January 16 2011 06:22 eth3n wrote:
please post the replay to a non-login site
Fixed. Sorry about that
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A bunch of VRs are probably your best bet. If he goes Thor/Marine, it's a lot harder, but just Thors can't take on a ton of Void Rays.
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On January 16 2011 06:19 AyameStarcraft wrote:
I'm not really in a position to give advice or see the replay right now but if your opponent is sitting in his base making thors you should probably take the rest of the map and tech to carriers or somesuch. Hallucinate a bunch of phoenix and fly them in for scouting just in case he isn't massing thors.
It's not a good idea to take the rest of the map, but it's okay to probably get an extra (1) expansion. You don't need 5 bases just to destroy thors, and if he just pushes there because you used that many minerals than you might lose.
Void ray/Immortal should actually be the best in this scenario, especially with the patch. Air is stronger than ground in chokes, and immortals are very good in chokes as well. The thors will have to 250 mm the immortals, but be blasted away by the void rays.
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On January 16 2011 06:30 Terminator(471) wrote:
Thors are slow. All the advice so far is pretty good. VRs and Carriers wouldn't be a bad option. Also dt's would be great against them. Send in 1 or 2 at a time untill he runs out of scans. Then just beat the shit out of him with dts.
While I agree that DTs could be a possible solution, I would stay clear of voidrays and carriers. Voidrays are good vs thors in small numbers, but once you get enough, the AOE of the Thors tend to end up oneshotting your whole bunch of voidrays.
Carriers are good, but I would imagine that a Terran would jump on the vikings as soon as he realized it, and handle them like Jinro did last night..
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have your zealots in front of your ball instead of inside. Frankly having said that you would still lose. It would have helped though. I am toss too. It gets frustrating sometimes.
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The protoss counter to Thors is VRs, not Immortals. Even with Hardened Shield, Thors shred through the Immortal's shields very quickly thanks to their high rate of fire. You will likely want to supplement your VRs with a Chargelot/Sentry/Colossus ball to deal with Marines and to keep the Thors in place while your VRs take them down. Carriers are not an effective counter to Thors, as Intercepters both take extra damage from the Thor's AA attack AND bunch up worse than Mutas. The inevitable Marine ground support and mixing in of a few Vikings will simply slaughter the carriers.
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Ok after watching the game.
You should have broken down the gold rocks at your south west and expanded there. Your observer spotted that he was sitting massing. You should have considered getting a couple of warp prisms and abusing the lack of mobility thors had as well as teching to a general air path.
I feel you were too passive in this game overall as well.
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1. Your sentry count way, way too high. Trade those out for equivalent supply of pretty much any other unit(I would've gotten templars to storm the rest of his army) and the battle would've went much better.
2. Also, I think you could react better to the hellion drops. Basically if you see any kind of mech play, they will try to do a blue flame hellion drop at some point in the game because hellions are so cheap and the rest of mech is so expensive in gas.
3. Unit positioning needs a lot of work. At the master league level is where one-control-group-syndrome makes the difference between winning and losing a game. Stalkers and colossi need to be kept behind everything else because they have long range. Also you need to set up a wide concave
4. Any time you max out and don't feel like you can win, start trading out lower tier units for tech units! Even though you had a 200/200 army, the majority of it low tier so his army was actually much stronger. Suicide 2 stalkers to get an immortal, 3 zealots to get a carrier/colossus, etc.
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Rank 2 Master League Terran here-
I made a post about Mass Thor in TvP, alas the moderators didn't approve of a non-barracks centric strategy so it was closed. Thors are viable and they counter all gateway and robotics units- even Voidrays.
However, Thors have one weakness in TvP: Mass Carriers with High Templar support.
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I am a terran who used to run this same type of build and I found that if you allow a terran to get a large number of thors ~8 with marine support it is pretty hard to stop but your best bet is HT/speed zealots ht storm the marines and terran cant afford ghosts and mass thors really and then zealots are relatively effective vs thors when they can surround especially with archon support... stay away from stalkers they get 2 shot just like all gateway units but cost alot more than zeals and remember that thors take forever to build so if you do kill the terran ball of thors dont let up on the pressure keep the count low
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Mass Carriers with High Templar support? I don't see how I should be able to defend myself and somehow be able to tech up to both of those things at the same time. Sure they are good if you have them, but the simple act of actually getting them would be a serious pain.
HT + speedlots on the other hand seems like something I should try out.
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High Templar are not longer able to feedback Thors. So what's the use of getting a High Templar against Thor now? To attempt to storm the crap out of them?
Carriers should be the safest build, but if they scout them I don't know.... Maybe colossus too..
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On January 16 2011 09:17 Orlando Mavado wrote:
I made a post about Mass Thor in TvP, alas the moderators didn't approve of a non-barracks centric strategy so it was closed.
Danger: sharp learning curve ahead.
Anyhow, I do rather feel for Protoss versus mass Thor. Zerg gets neural parasite, otherwise known as the "Thors? For me? Oh you shouldn't have!" spell, and the counterintuitive but hilariously effective tide of banelings, either of which are pretty straightforward to obtain by the time serious quantities of Thors are on the field. Protoss? Much less straightforward.
Colossus outrange the hell out of Thors - it is possible that well-positioned and microed mass colossus would work - assuming they're attainable in time?
EDIT: Forgot colossi can be hit with air attacks. Mind you, they're pretty feeble so A-move thors into colossi might not do so well...
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On January 16 2011 10:36 PikaXchU wrote:
High Templar are not longer able to feedback Thors. So what's the use of getting a High Templar against Thor now? To attempt to storm the crap out of them?
Carriers should be the safest build, but if they scout them I don't know.... Maybe colossus too..
Actually thats quite simple: Carriers vanishes quite quickly to vikings, but vikings are really vulnerable to High templars On top of that there are usually a bunch of marines around the thors, and marines kill interceptors insanely fast. Thats why carriers alone wont be able to do much
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Voidrays should win when it's pure thor, but thats not usually the easiest counter to get. Collosus with thermal lance and zealots to tank is usually best, and this does very good vs thor accompanied with marines. Also does a great jump of making sure repair cant be used during a fight.
When you are on 2 or more bases its also a good idea to get just 1 single stargate for a few voidrays. The thors have EXTREMELY low DPS vs nonlight air, especially when you spread that out so they dont deal splash. With just a couple this is not a hard thing to do. The thor's ai makes then attack voidrays over zealots and collosus so they just stand there shooting their confetti and then doing noting for 3 seconds while getting destroyed.
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On January 16 2011 10:36 PikaXchU wrote:
High Templar are not longer able to feedback Thors. So what's the use of getting a High Templar against Thor now? To attempt to storm the crap out of them?
Carriers should be the safest build, but if they scout them I don't know.... Maybe colossus too..
yeah why not storm.
big thor balls are close together and are so slow that they take guaranteed full dmg. and if you play zeal/immortal heavy you should have quite some gas left for HTs.
also totally denies any marine or scv support, is great against banshees/air and great vs evrything.
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Pretty easy to deal with that... make colossus and micro them... Thors are too slow to even thouch them or do the strike cannon. Abuse the immobility of thors and/or tanks with colossus and blink stalker. BLink inside the base of terran kill some structure back off. Go kill his expands with another group etc. But yeah against thors only... make colossus and micro them and he won't be able to do anything.
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On January 16 2011 10:47 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 09:17 Orlando Mavado wrote:
I made a post about Mass Thor in TvP, alas the moderators didn't approve of a non-barracks centric strategy so it was closed. Danger: sharp learning curve ahead. Anyhow, I do rather feel for Protoss versus mass Thor. Zerg gets neural parasite, otherwise known as the "Thors? For me? Oh you shouldn't have!" spell, and the counterintuitive but hilariously effective tide of banelings, either of which are pretty straightforward to obtain by the time serious quantities of Thors are on the field. Protoss? Much less straightforward. Colossus outrange the hell out of Thors - it is possible that well-positioned and microed mass colossus would work - assuming they're attainable in time? EDIT: Forgot colossi can be hit with air attacks. Mind you, they're pretty feeble so A-move thors into colossi might not do so well...
I believe Thors only use ground attack vs collosus, even if they are within range of the air attack, but outside of the ground. 250mm cannon have a range of 7, and collosus (with upgrades) have a range of 9. So it is indeed very possible to micro collosus vs thors. But the punishment for have a collosus not perfectly within those 2 squares is instant death, as you can not run outside of the range of 250mm cannon when it first has started to engage, even if it takes a second for the stun to take effect.
I feel like this would be a much close matchup if 250mm didn't stun the collosus, and would stop when they're out of range.
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On January 16 2011 11:03 AlexCMoi wrote:
Pretty easy to deal with that... make colossus and micro them... Thors are too slow to even thouch them or do the strike cannon. Abuse the immobility of thors and/or tanks with colossus and blink stalker. BLink inside the base of terran kill some structure back off. Go kill his expands with another group etc. But yeah against thors only... make colossus and micro them and he won't be able to do anything.
This has no root in reality I'm afraid. No terran would make only thors without marine and possibly marauder support. Thors kills stalkers so quickly its not even funny, so you should avoid them at all cost(which I didn't in this replay..Could be why I lost?). You can blink into their main if you want to, but whats stopping them from just attacking you had on and killing you?
Also you seem quite confident that you are able to micro collosus vs thors, seeing as its range 7 vs range 9, and the punishment for getting in range of a thor for a micro second is instant death to 250mm cannons..
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Carriers would've been the best choice. Vikings are only cost effective against carriers, and the interceptors screw VERY VERY badly with mass thor ai. While it seems expensive to tech to both carriers and HT, realistically you could easily have done it. You had something like 20 sentries in your army. Imagine if you had 3-4 HT's instead and just threw down 5 good storms on top of the whole army. Storm doesn't do much to thor's, I would agree, but you would still have hit 3-4 of them with every storm.
Also, keep a closer eye on your minimap and the enemy base, both blue flame drops were spotted by the observer.
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250 MM cannons the future of TvP who woulda thought?
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Naniwa just played Goody in the TL open, and Goody tried to go mech
He just abused mechs immobility with blink stalkers and collossi, then caught him out of position, blinked in his base and killed everything.
Thors are great though, with cannons they 1 shot immortals/collossi and do well against everything else ground
Build void rays/carriers, they kill thors like nothing else in the game
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On January 16 2011 09:17 Orlando Mavado wrote:
Rank 2 Master League Terran here-
I made a post about Mass Thor in TvP, alas the moderators didn't approve of a non-barracks centric strategy so it was closed. Thors are viable and they counter all gateway and robotics units- even Voidrays.
However, Thors have one weakness in TvP: Mass Carriers with High Templar support.
I would love to see a sc2ranks link to your bnet profile.. the way you post makes me highly doubt the claims you make..
anyways for help, try to do a 3gate VR push if you see initial turtling (early bunker above ramp etc.) or if you feel like they're going mech, even if they go fast banshee your attack should hit at a timing to where you will win a base trade vs banshees even with cloak, just make sure to get a forge up fast, if you thought they were teching to mech and they happened to just be hiding rax's expand and grab a robo fast and rely on good FF's and micro to defend until you get out collosi (or just hold them inside their own base by FF'ing their ramp forcing them to either get medivacs or face their army being split in half and chewed apart)
hope this helps gl!
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On January 16 2011 11:15 veK1g wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 09:17 Orlando Mavado wrote:
Rank 2 Master League Terran here-
I made a post about Mass Thor in TvP, alas the moderators didn't approve of a non-barracks centric strategy so it was closed. Thors are viable and they counter all gateway and robotics units- even Voidrays.
However, Thors have one weakness in TvP: Mass Carriers with High Templar support. I would love to see a sc2ranks link to your bnet profile.. the way you post makes me highly doubt the claims you make.. anyways for help, try to do a 3gate VR push if you see initial turtling (early bunker above ramp etc.) or if you feel like they're going mech, even if they go fast banshee your attack should hit at a timing to where you will win a base trade vs banshees even with cloak, just make sure to get a forge up fast, if you thought they were teching to mech and they happened to just be hiding rax's expand and grab a robo fast and rely on good FF's and micro to defend until you get out collosi (or just hold them inside their own base by FF'ing their ramp forcing them to either get medivacs or face their army being split in half and chewed apart) hope this helps gl!
I'm not saying it wont work, but it requires me to change my build completely. I would rather want to know how I should adapt in the midgame if I see the terran sit in his base and mass thors.
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On January 16 2011 11:08 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 11:03 AlexCMoi wrote:
Pretty easy to deal with that... make colossus and micro them... Thors are too slow to even thouch them or do the strike cannon. Abuse the immobility of thors and/or tanks with colossus and blink stalker. BLink inside the base of terran kill some structure back off. Go kill his expands with another group etc. But yeah against thors only... make colossus and micro them and he won't be able to do anything.
This has no root in reality I'm afraid. No terran would make only thors without marine and possibly marauder support. Thors kills stalkers so quickly its not even funny, so you should avoid them at all cost(which I didn't in this replay..Could be why I lost?). You can blink into their main if you want to, but whats stopping them from just attacking you had on and killing you? Also you seem quite confident that you are able to micro collosus vs thors, seeing as its range 7 vs range 9, and the punishment for getting in range of a thor for a micro second is instant death to 250mm cannons..
In the post he talks about Thors without anything, just mass thors. if he make marauder and marine with it.. it dosnt change anything since thors are a units that is made in the late game usaly if you want to mass them and if so u can make templars with ur colossus since protoss gonna have many bases. YOu said thors kill stalkers very fast yeah but you dont engage the thors you just use them to get the thors off position.
And yeah im confident I can micro colossus vs thors.. pretty damn easy since you just attack and back with the colossus and with yourt 6-7 colossus terran can chase you more than 5 sec before he realise it's a waste to do so.
( 3500 terran )
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Isn't this like saying what counters mass carriers? You let them get to that point of course you are going to be at a disadvantage in a straight army fight w/ a normal army. If they actually do get to that point I would exploit the thors immobility and attempt to starve them or base trade.
If you are forced to engage then VRs + zealot support (plus colossi and/or HTs for the probable marine support) are your best bet. Immortals are not good vs thors w/ the cannon upgrade unless you severely outnumber them (highly unlikely).
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Mass Void Rays and engage them in a choke. I wonder how Magic Boxed VRs would handle Mass Thors as well.
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On January 16 2011 11:22 AlexCMoi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 11:08 Excludos wrote:On January 16 2011 11:03 AlexCMoi wrote:
Pretty easy to deal with that... make colossus and micro them... Thors are too slow to even thouch them or do the strike cannon. Abuse the immobility of thors and/or tanks with colossus and blink stalker. BLink inside the base of terran kill some structure back off. Go kill his expands with another group etc. But yeah against thors only... make colossus and micro them and he won't be able to do anything.
This has no root in reality I'm afraid. No terran would make only thors without marine and possibly marauder support. Thors kills stalkers so quickly its not even funny, so you should avoid them at all cost(which I didn't in this replay..Could be why I lost?). You can blink into their main if you want to, but whats stopping them from just attacking you had on and killing you? Also you seem quite confident that you are able to micro collosus vs thors, seeing as its range 7 vs range 9, and the punishment for getting in range of a thor for a micro second is instant death to 250mm cannons.. And yeah im confident I can micro colossus vs thors.. pretty damn easy since you just attack and back with the colossus and with yourt 6-7 colossus terran can chase you more than 5 sec before he realise it's a waste to do so. ( 3500 terran )
Whoever in master league would just try to chase you with their thors instead of microing them back and fourth..?
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Mass Void Rays and engage them in a choke. I wonder how Magic Boxed VRs would handle Mass Thors as well.
Some Unit Tester findings;
30 Thors vs. 60 Voidrays
Thors win with 20+ Thors remaining.
Not sure if Magic Box is possible with Void Rays considering they have such slow speed.
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On January 16 2011 11:34 Orlando Mavado wrote:Show nested quote +Mass Void Rays and engage them in a choke. I wonder how Magic Boxed VRs would handle Mass Thors as well. Some Unit Tester findings; 30 Thors vs. 60 Voidrays Thors win with 20+ Thors remaining. Not sure if Magic Box is possible with Void Rays considering they have such slow speed.
I'm assuming that the void rays got shot down by splash because they didn't have time to spread out. Also, did you engage in a choke?
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I'm assuming that the void rays got shot down by splash because they didn't have time to spread out. Also, did you engage in a choke?
Engaged on that platform thing, both armies attack-moving no micro. The Thors were actually at a disadvantage because I didn't have 20 SCVs with them, so no repairing.
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twilight council gateway army should do pretty well. lots of forge upgrades, blink + charge, abuse immobility of thors?
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On January 16 2011 11:34 Orlando Mavado wrote:Show nested quote +Mass Void Rays and engage them in a choke. I wonder how Magic Boxed VRs would handle Mass Thors as well. Some Unit Tester findings; 30 Thors vs. 60 Voidrays Thors win with 20+ Thors remaining. Not sure if Magic Box is possible with Void Rays considering they have such slow speed.
How is this a realistic scenario? Even 10 thors is stretching it. Plus guardian shield reduces thor AA damage a LOT.
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On January 16 2011 12:00 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 11:34 Orlando Mavado wrote:Mass Void Rays and engage them in a choke. I wonder how Magic Boxed VRs would handle Mass Thors as well. Some Unit Tester findings; 30 Thors vs. 60 Voidrays Thors win with 20+ Thors remaining. Not sure if Magic Box is possible with Void Rays considering they have such slow speed. How is this a realistic scenario? Even 10 thors is stretching it. Plus guardian shield reduces thor AA damage a LOT.
Because the point of the thread is looking at how to counter mass thors. Therefore 20-30 thors is exactly the point, and this is to test how well VRs do against them. I'm not sure Guardian Shield factors in well, because it's so easily destroyed with a little micro.
Without having tested this, are we so sure that massing a single unit is the best option flat out? Part of their strength is the idea of critical mass and how much damage they put out at range.
Also upgrades, does a certain number of armour upgrades that add another round of shots required to kill a key unit?
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On January 16 2011 11:34 Orlando Mavado wrote:Show nested quote +Mass Void Rays and engage them in a choke. I wonder how Magic Boxed VRs would handle Mass Thors as well. Some Unit Tester findings; 30 Thors vs. 60 Voidrays Thors win with 20+ Thors remaining. Not sure if Magic Box is possible with Void Rays considering they have such slow speed.
Sounds like you told them to attack the Thors. Don't.
In the unit tester, make 30 thors (180 food) and 35 void rays (105 food). Make sure VRs are allowed to 'settle' properly (spaced out). Select all the void rays and click beyond the thors. Do not under any circumstances a-move. Notice the VRs start firing and charging up even while moving. Hit 'h' when the void rays are centred over the thors. Void rays win easily. Same applies with 3/3 upgrades (no upgraded shields): about 10 VRs left over.
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On January 16 2011 11:34 Orlando Mavado wrote:
Not sure if Magic Box is possible with Void Rays considering they have such slow speed.
I think it is to a limited degree, though manual spreading might turn out to be more effective. Carriers are still probably a better solution.
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Carriers work too, but I think VRs might edge it in terms of cost and food. Make sure you have auto-build interceptors active, too
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In my experience, with large numbers of thors on the field, carriers are near useless. This is because the first volley of the thors wil take out atleast half of the interceptors due to splash damage, and interceptors being classed as 'light'. This will quickly leave you with a useless fleet of blimps if the terran doesn't target the carriers with the thors.
However, voids are far more viable against thors after their damage buff vs massive, and if spread out (manually), they take little damage from thors, since they take no bonus damage.
Also, I'm surprised collosii haven't been mentioned as a way of dealing with thors, since with their greater range and speed, they can easily kite thors.
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Mass carrier + high templar is the best composition you can have.
The only viable units of terran against mass carrier are mass marine or mass vikings. both get owned by storm very hard.
gsl-spoiler:
+ Show Spoiler +
if you have carrier but no high templar you are pretty easy defeated as you could see in todays games between jinro and mc.
vikings owned the carriers and thors killed the rest. if mc had hts he could have killed that viking ball so his carriers could actually do sth.
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Also, I'm surprised collosii haven't been mentioned as a way of dealing with thors
Colossus were mentioned, a couple of times. Having seen the mess Void Rays make of 30 thors, however, I'm not sure Colossus is the way to go. VRs build faster, can't be hit by 250mm cannon, leave you with oodles of food to make HT's to deal with marine/scv support, and require no micro.
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Sounds like you told them to attack the Thors. Don't.
In the unit tester, make 30 thors (180 food) and 35 void rays (105 food). Make sure VRs are allowed to 'settle' properly (spaced out). Select all the void rays and click beyond the thors. Do not under any circumstances a-move. Notice the VRs start firing and charging up even while moving. Hit 'h' when the void rays are centred over the thors. Void rays win easily. Same applies with 3/3 upgrades (no upgraded shields): about 10 VRs left over.
Just tried it and I'm stunned...
I did two tests
Both sides 3/3 3/3/3 upgrades
Once again 30 Thors vs. 60 Void Rays, no micro, attack-moving.
Result: Thors win with 19 remaining.
Than the second test, involving half that number of Void Rays but doing the Magic Box.
30 Thors vs. 30 Void Rays
Result: Void Rays win with 7 remaining
Magic Box is a serious glitch that needs to be patched out as it completely negates the effectiveness of combined splash.
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in a real game voids will never be 3/3/3
more realistically they will be 1/0/0 or 2/0/0 fighting thors with armor and attack upgrades.
but that is a little off topic.
the key to beating mech has and always will be its immobility. close spawns on some maps kinda shit all over this, but its certainly resonable to overexpand and tech to whatever you want, if the map allows. void rays are great because they can attack from a variety of different angles.
if he is mass thors you never really need to engage the army. even if he is sitting on your doorstep, unless you know you can just plow through (huge food advantage) no real reason to fight. you can always base trade in these scenarios which is better for you (since you should be more spread out around the map, and can rebuild prodcution easier than terran).
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On January 16 2011 12:33 Orlando Mavado wrote:Show nested quote +Sounds like you told them to attack the Thors. Don't.
In the unit tester, make 30 thors (180 food) and 35 void rays (105 food). Make sure VRs are allowed to 'settle' properly (spaced out). Select all the void rays and click beyond the thors. Do not under any circumstances a-move. Notice the VRs start firing and charging up even while moving. Hit 'h' when the void rays are centred over the thors. Void rays win easily. Same applies with 3/3 upgrades (no upgraded shields): about 10 VRs left over. Just tried it and I'm stunned... I did two tests Both sides 3/3 3/3/3 upgrades Once again 30 Thors vs. 60 Void Rays, no micro, attack-moving. Result: Thors win with 19 remaining. Than the second test, involving half that number of Void Rays but doing the Magic Box. 30 Thors vs. 30 Void Rays Result: Void Rays win with 7 remaining
Magic Box is a serious glitch that needs to be patched out as it completely negates the effectiveness of combined splash. That has to be most profoundly erroneous conclusion I have ever seen made on this forum. You are seriously trying to make the argument that void rays, an armored flying unit can cost effectively kill mass thors if they are microed and as such magic box has to be fixed? The very same thor that cost effectively absolutely dominates every single protoss ground unit? Even disregarding the fact that your "solution" would completely and utterly break the ZvT matchup why in the world would you ever suggest to fix a skill based maneouver instead of changing the unit itself?
Did perhaps the "void rays now do 20% bonus damage to massive units" not clue you in as to what the point of the void ray was supposed to be? Maybe you misunderstood when you read the thor AA missile damage description where it states that they do a bonus to light units?
Seriously, go back to the WoW forums and demand nerfs because you are getting owned by warriors, or whichever class it's fashionable to complain about these days and leave the TL strategy forum to people who would like to discuss, you know, strategy.
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On January 16 2011 12:43 esla_sol wrote:
in a real game voids will never be 3/3/3
more realistically they will be 1/0/0 or 2/0/0 fighting thors with armor and attack upgrades.
but that is a little off topic.
the key to beating mech has and always will be its immobility. close spawns on some maps kinda shit all over this, but its certainly resonable to overexpand and tech to whatever you want, if the map allows. void rays are great because they can attack from a variety of different angles.
if he is mass thors you never really need to engage the army. even if he is sitting on your doorstep, unless you know you can just plow through (huge food advantage) no real reason to fight. you can always base trade in these scenarios which is better for you (since you should be more spread out around the map, and can rebuild prodcution easier than terran).
But heres the thing. Without siege tanks, Thors are actually quite mobile. Sure, they're not speedlings, but its still going to be hard to counterattack, drop, and the usual jazz when he can very simply just a-move into your base and kill you. The other problem is that the only real mobile unit that protoss have (except for air) is stalkers, which arent exactly an optimal unit to use vs thors.
I guess, if you're good, you can abuse mobility vs thors on huge maps. But on close position on Delta Quadrant?
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On January 16 2011 12:11 TheOracle wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 12:00 Skyro wrote:On January 16 2011 11:34 Orlando Mavado wrote:Mass Void Rays and engage them in a choke. I wonder how Magic Boxed VRs would handle Mass Thors as well. Some Unit Tester findings; 30 Thors vs. 60 Voidrays Thors win with 20+ Thors remaining. Not sure if Magic Box is possible with Void Rays considering they have such slow speed. How is this a realistic scenario? Even 10 thors is stretching it. Plus guardian shield reduces thor AA damage a LOT. Because the point of the thread is looking at how to counter mass thors. Therefore 20-30 thors is exactly the point, and this is to test how well VRs do against them. I'm not sure Guardian Shield factors in well, because it's so easily destroyed with a little micro. Without having tested this, are we so sure that massing a single unit is the best option flat out? Part of their strength is the idea of critical mass and how much damage they put out at range. Also upgrades, does a certain number of armour upgrades that add another round of shots required to kill a key unit?
I somehow doubt the point of the thread is what happens in a completely unrealistic, hypothetical scenario that provides absolutely no useful information to improving one's game.
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Voids rays nuff said. 20% more damage against massive. yesh plz. yeah splash damage rapes em but still. you can make voids alot quicker then thors.
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On January 16 2011 12:33 Orlando Mavado wrote:
Magic Box is a serious glitch that needs to be patched out as it completely negates the effectiveness of combined splash.
This sounds very objective coming from the guy who admits he does nothing by mass thor 25 minute timing push in every single one of his games
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On January 16 2011 17:04 Liquidspoison wrote:
Voids rays nuff said. 20% more damage against massive. yesh plz. yeah splash damage rapes em but still. you can make voids alot quicker then thors.
Exactly. 20% extra damage on the Thors by voids, in addition to being totally outmaneuvered by the flying units.
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On January 16 2011 12:33 Orlando Mavado wrote:Show nested quote +Sounds like you told them to attack the Thors. Don't.
In the unit tester, make 30 thors (180 food) and 35 void rays (105 food). Make sure VRs are allowed to 'settle' properly (spaced out). Select all the void rays and click beyond the thors. Do not under any circumstances a-move. Notice the VRs start firing and charging up even while moving. Hit 'h' when the void rays are centred over the thors. Void rays win easily. Same applies with 3/3 upgrades (no upgraded shields): about 10 VRs left over. Just tried it and I'm stunned... I did two tests Both sides 3/3 3/3/3 upgrades Once again 30 Thors vs. 60 Void Rays, no micro, attack-moving. Result: Thors win with 19 remaining. Than the second test, involving half that number of Void Rays but doing the Magic Box. 30 Thors vs. 30 Void Rays Result: Void Rays win with 7 remaining Magic Box is a serious glitch that needs to be patched out as it completely negates the effectiveness of combined splash.
Haha this is the best thing I've ever read on this site. The one cheap bullshit strategy that he uses to get into the master league gets countered and he calls it a glitch
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Its the same issue as if terran lets you get 6 collosus, any bio they have is then useless.
I'm glad that people have found something to kill late game toss without EMP luck.
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I would try to hit early with stalkers (maybe blink) since this is a good strat vs all factory builds and its easy to transition out of it. If you dont outright kill him you can do severe eco damage, snipe tech labs, etc. Basically poke with your first units and get several stalkers to attack him early. If he has a thor its time to run since stalkers suck at killing scvs and thors wont die even if their is no repair going on.
Personally if you do not kill him with blink/stalkers I would get chargelots and either DT or Void Ray. Unless he saves scans DTs will work since he wont have gas for ravens. If he did save scan his eco will be pretty far behind. Void Rays are also good except they must be spread AND attack the same thor preferably. And marines counter them which only cost minerals.
Chargelots are good tanks, fast, do good damage, easy to reproduce, and beat factory units (including hellions sort of). Its quick to get DTs from here and he wont likely have Starport or gas for ravens.
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On January 16 2011 12:48 Alsn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 12:33 Orlando Mavado wrote:Sounds like you told them to attack the Thors. Don't.
In the unit tester, make 30 thors (180 food) and 35 void rays (105 food). Make sure VRs are allowed to 'settle' properly (spaced out). Select all the void rays and click beyond the thors. Do not under any circumstances a-move. Notice the VRs start firing and charging up even while moving. Hit 'h' when the void rays are centred over the thors. Void rays win easily. Same applies with 3/3 upgrades (no upgraded shields): about 10 VRs left over. Just tried it and I'm stunned... I did two tests Both sides 3/3 3/3/3 upgrades Once again 30 Thors vs. 60 Void Rays, no micro, attack-moving. Result: Thors win with 19 remaining. Than the second test, involving half that number of Void Rays but doing the Magic Box. 30 Thors vs. 30 Void Rays Result: Void Rays win with 7 remaining
Magic Box is a serious glitch that needs to be patched out as it completely negates the effectiveness of combined splash. That has to be most profoundly erroneous conclusion I have ever seen made on this forum. You are seriously trying to make the argument that void rays, an armored flying unit can cost effectively kill mass thors if they are microed and as such magic box has to be fixed? The very same thor that cost effectively absolutely dominates every single protoss ground unit? Even disregarding the fact that your "solution" would completely and utterly break the ZvT matchup why in the world would you ever suggest to fix a skill based maneouver instead of changing the unit itself? Did perhaps the "void rays now do 20% bonus damage to massive units" not clue you in as to what the point of the void ray was supposed to be? Maybe you misunderstood when you read the thor AA missile damage description where it states that they do a bonus to light units? Seriously, go back to the WoW forums and demand nerfs because you are getting owned by warriors, or whichever class it's fashionable to complain about these days and leave the TL strategy forum to people who would like to discuss, you know, strategy.
Dude he is either stupid or a troll dont bother arguing with him...
Magic box makes TvZ possible. You sacrifice FF for Increased survivability, which is countered by not relying on splash (marines).
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what? what's wrong with zealot/colossi?
colossi beat thors 1:1 once you get enough, like approx. 6. and that's what you're concerned with, higher numbers.
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On January 16 2011 11:03 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 10:36 PikaXchU wrote:
High Templar are not longer able to feedback Thors. So what's the use of getting a High Templar against Thor now? To attempt to storm the crap out of them?
Carriers should be the safest build, but if they scout them I don't know.... Maybe colossus too.. yeah why not storm. big thor balls are close together and are so slow that they take guaranteed full dmg. and if you play zeal/immortal heavy you should have quite some gas left for HTs. also totally denies any marine or scv support, is great against banshees/air and great vs evrything.
Some Terran did this to me at 2.9k diamond before patch came out by a week, it was on steppes! he took his natural after i took mine and started going siege + MASS thors, he had like 5 siege tanks positioned in his base so i couldn't attack, not with bunkers there and such! so i took my third, saturated it and when my main was mined out i took my gold expansion... i went pure chargelot immortal ht's with 3/3 and we engaged in the middle! needless to say i got roflstomped and he ended up with about 160 food left i'd imagine! (i was on 3 base + one gold) he was on 3 and he took his third as i took my 4th.
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On January 16 2011 12:33 Orlando Mavado wrote:Show nested quote +Sounds like you told them to attack the Thors. Don't.
In the unit tester, make 30 thors (180 food) and 35 void rays (105 food). Make sure VRs are allowed to 'settle' properly (spaced out). Select all the void rays and click beyond the thors. Do not under any circumstances a-move. Notice the VRs start firing and charging up even while moving. Hit 'h' when the void rays are centred over the thors. Void rays win easily. Same applies with 3/3 upgrades (no upgraded shields): about 10 VRs left over. Just tried it and I'm stunned... I did two tests Both sides 3/3 3/3/3 upgrades Once again 30 Thors vs. 60 Void Rays, no micro, attack-moving. Result: Thors win with 19 remaining. Than the second test, involving half that number of Void Rays but doing the Magic Box. 30 Thors vs. 30 Void Rays Result: Void Rays win with 7 remaining Magic Box is a serious glitch that needs to be patched out as it completely negates the effectiveness of combined splash.
In fact i believe that magic box adds more skill to the game, the only bad part to it is that it makes thors completely worthless as anti air against anything. For example against zerg if they magic box their mutas, thors actually do less damage than a single stimmed marine because their splash isnt hitting anything.
The splash on the thors is to jsut punish bad micro, kind of makes it a game changing factor, meaning micro can have a huge impact on a fight. Only problem is that magic box is pretty easy to do :S Gief thors valkyrie attacks plz!!!
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On January 16 2011 12:14 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 11:34 Orlando Mavado wrote:Mass Void Rays and engage them in a choke. I wonder how Magic Boxed VRs would handle Mass Thors as well. Some Unit Tester findings; 30 Thors vs. 60 Voidrays Thors win with 20+ Thors remaining. Not sure if Magic Box is possible with Void Rays considering they have such slow speed. Sounds like you told them to attack the Thors. Don't. In the unit tester, make 30 thors (180 food) and 35 void rays (105 food). Make sure VRs are allowed to 'settle' properly (spaced out). Select all the void rays and click beyond the thors. Do not under any circumstances a-move. Notice the VRs start firing and charging up even while moving. Hit 'h' when the void rays are centred over the thors. Void rays win easily. Same applies with 3/3 upgrades (no upgraded shields): about 10 VRs left over.
Wow, this is a great vr micro advice! Cheers for that, mate!
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It seems like magic boxed VR would dominate mass thor. If magic boxed mutas do well vs thor until +2 attack is out, it should work even better for VRs.
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The Best counter against thors: VOID RAYS!
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On January 16 2011 20:15 ZappTheRipper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 12:14 Umpteen wrote:On January 16 2011 11:34 Orlando Mavado wrote:Mass Void Rays and engage them in a choke. I wonder how Magic Boxed VRs would handle Mass Thors as well. Some Unit Tester findings; 30 Thors vs. 60 Voidrays Thors win with 20+ Thors remaining. Not sure if Magic Box is possible with Void Rays considering they have such slow speed. Sounds like you told them to attack the Thors. Don't. In the unit tester, make 30 thors (180 food) and 35 void rays (105 food). Make sure VRs are allowed to 'settle' properly (spaced out). Select all the void rays and click beyond the thors. Do not under any circumstances a-move. Notice the VRs start firing and charging up even while moving. Hit 'h' when the void rays are centred over the thors. Void rays win easily. Same applies with 3/3 upgrades (no upgraded shields): about 10 VRs left over. Wow, this is a great vr micro advice! Cheers for that, mate!
I can't possibly take any credit; I'm just describing 'magic boxing' for anyone unfamiliar with the term.
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zealots with charge + immortals sounds like it would work. void rays are also a good counter.
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On January 16 2011 21:13 DImported wrote:
zealots with charge + immortals sounds like it would work. void rays are also a good counter.
250mm strike cannon would like a word with your immortals.
VRs best counter.
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Vs mass-thors chargelots/immortals/carriers work best. Yesterday I encountered this in a 2v2 (for fun with a bronze reallife friend), the zealots and immortals soak up the damage and the carriers (attack upgrades so, so important) do the damage.
It's extremely important that you kinda switch out of the habit of producing sentry/stalker...I know, we protoss-players are kinda used to doing this so it nearly becomes something we do "automatically", but against mech this is really bad in lategame. Once you are on 3-4 bases, which isn't "that" unusual vs terran mech play that does NOT involve a timing push, you should constantly add robos and stargates. In the 2v2 I was talking about, I was on 6 robotics and 7 stargates in the end, so I could reproduce immortals and carriers immediately , which ended the game.
To strike cannons: one thor is more expensive than one immortal. If one thor strike-cannons an immortal, this thor is dead vs the carriers. He won't survive to see another day. Therefore all you need is to keep the immortal-number high enough and constantly reproduce them, then you can defeat the thors comfortably and cost-effectively.
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Mothership can seriously abuse mobility of a mech army with mass recall. Vortex can also be very useful ofc.
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When Jinro went for Thors against MC, MC teched to Carriers. You might wanna try a mix of ground forces/void rays/Carriers.
Sure, MC lost, but that was because he had only 4 Carriers against 20 Vikings.
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On January 16 2011 22:41 Vaethin wrote:
When Jinro went for Thors against MC, MC teched to Carriers. You might wanna try a mix of ground forces/void rays/Carriers.
Sure, MC lost, but that was because he had only 4 Carriers against 20 Vikings. MC should have teched storm + chargelot first to lower the marine/viking count and leave the thors fair game for mass units.
Carriers are good but you cant go straight to carriers or you will get vikingrolled like mc.
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[B]To strike cannons: one thor is more expensive than one immortal. If one thor strike-cannons an immortal, this thor is dead vs the carriers. He won't survive to see another day. Therefore all you need is to keep the immortal-number high enough and constantly reproduce them, then you can defeat the thors comfortably and cost-effectively.
This logic makes no sense in so many ways...
So I should counter your collusus with marines because when your collusus kill my marines they will die to my vikings?
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Mass Thor is basically the most similar style to the BW unstoppable doom push steam roller of Terran Mech.... except it fills your food 3x faster :-p But straight Thor has weaknesses. So the best bet is to take away all the support units (marines/vikings/hellions).
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I see a lot of people have mentioned carriers. The biggest weakness of a carrier is that it takes forever to build. If you constantly chronoboost a carrier, the terran can build 4 vikings in the meantime from a single starport with reactor. By the time you have 4 carriers, the terran will most likely have 16 vikings. And 16 vikings simply annihilate carriers (see Jinro vs MC gsl ro16)
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On January 16 2011 22:46 Armsved wrote:Show nested quote +[B]To strike cannons: one thor is more expensive than one immortal. If one thor strike-cannons an immortal, this thor is dead vs the carriers. He won't survive to see another day. Therefore all you need is to keep the immortal-number high enough and constantly reproduce them, then you can defeat the thors comfortably and cost-effectively. This logic makes no sense in so many ways... So I should counter your collusus with marines because when your collusus kill my marines they will die to my vikings?
Not that this is on topic, but what he is saying is that if he chooses to strike cannon the immortals he dies to the carriers, and if he chooses to attack the carriers he gets raped by immortals. You sir are the one with incorrect logic.
Back to the thread, I'm kinda glad that flux vanes got removed, because thinking about it now there is at least a chance that this kind of strategy can work, im just trying to imagine how much rape would happen if they were speed voids instead...
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On January 16 2011 23:16 shawty wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 22:46 Armsved wrote:[B]To strike cannons: one thor is more expensive than one immortal. If one thor strike-cannons an immortal, this thor is dead vs the carriers. He won't survive to see another day. Therefore all you need is to keep the immortal-number high enough and constantly reproduce them, then you can defeat the thors comfortably and cost-effectively. This logic makes no sense in so many ways... So I should counter your collusus with marines because when your collusus kill my marines they will die to my vikings? Not that this is on topic, but what he is saying is that if he chooses to strike cannon the immortals he dies to the carriers, and if he chooses to attack the carriers he gets raped by immortals. You sir are the one with incorrect logic. Back to the thread, I'm kinda glad that flux vanes got removed, because thinking about it now there is at least a chance that this kind of strategy can work, im just trying to imagine how much rape would happen if they were speed voids instead...
If he chooses to attack carriers, he still gets raped by carriers because you're doing 12 damage a volley. :-\
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On January 16 2011 23:16 shawty wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 22:46 Armsved wrote:[B]To strike cannons: one thor is more expensive than one immortal. If one thor strike-cannons an immortal, this thor is dead vs the carriers. He won't survive to see another day. Therefore all you need is to keep the immortal-number high enough and constantly reproduce them, then you can defeat the thors comfortably and cost-effectively. This logic makes no sense in so many ways... So I should counter your collusus with marines because when your collusus kill my marines they will die to my vikings? Not that this is on topic, but what he is saying is that if he chooses to strike cannon the immortals he dies to the carriers, and if he chooses to attack the carriers he gets raped by immortals. You sir are the one with incorrect logic. Back to the thread, I'm kinda glad that flux vanes got removed, because thinking about it now there is at least a chance that this kind of strategy can work, im just trying to imagine how much rape would happen if they were speed voids instead...
But why wouldnt he just make more carriers?
Why does he have to make immortals which are slightly cheaper than thors just to get them 250mm cannoned. Its not like the terran is making a tradeoff having to choose between carrier and immortal. Its about the individual unit being costeffective against a thor. The terran will just cannon the shit out of your immortals, and even if you can clean up with your carriers you would had been better off with more carriers or VRs rather than immortals.
The logic is seriously flawed. As if im going to make banchee and helion against mass hydra, so if you chose to kill the banchee the helion will kill your hydra? Yeah well, wtf. I should have just made nothing but helions to begin with.
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I read this entire thread hoping to find an answer I am also master league and just got crushed by this even though I out upgraded out expanded and had a much larger army then the terran. The person i played got about 10 thors 5 tanks and a crap ton of vikings. Void rays are not in the slightest viable and neither are carriers. mass immortals may be viable but I don't see that as a good idea since 1 emp could make your immortals worthless not to mention 250mm cannon and immortals terrible range(4). Storm's dmg if laughable to the hp of a thor and after the battle ends repair to full and press on. Yes you can abuse the mobility of thors and trust me i did, but every fight no matter how big my army was completely one sided. Dt's are effective but laughable as terran can easily have 3 or more oc's at this point. As a side note, I miss thor feedback.
I realize probobly could have won early on, but i wanted to macro and I was checking to see if he expanded frequently. I was unaware terran had a death ball I would need 400 units to kill.
Please watch my replay as I believe my opponents use of thors and my own play were better examples of a thor builds strength.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-181480.jpg)
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Havn't tested this, but what do you people of think of countering mass thors with mass immortal + warp prism micro ?
I know warp prism get demolished by thor's AA but if they are busy using 250M cannons ...
Also, stating the obvious but, if the terran player just turtles massing thors, you have time to get a mothership. Maybe vortex can help ?
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On January 17 2011 15:33 Scaryman wrote:
I read this entire thread hoping to find an answer I am also master league and just got crushed by this even though I out upgraded out expanded and had a much larger army then the terran. The person i played got about 10 thors 5 tanks and a crap ton of vikings. Void rays are not in the slightest viable and neither are carriers. mass immortals may be viable but I don't see that as a good idea since 1 emp could make your immortals worthless not to mention 250mm cannon and immortals terrible range(4). Storm's dmg if laughable to the hp of a thor and after the battle ends repair to full and press on. Yes you can abuse the mobility of thors and trust me i did, but every fight no matter how big my army was completely one sided. Dt's are effective but laughable as terran can easily have 3 or more oc's at this point. As a side note, I miss thor feedback.
I realize probobly could have won early on, but i wanted to macro and I was checking to see if he expanded frequently. I was unaware terran had a death ball I would need 400 units to kill.
Please watch my replay as I believe my opponents use of thors and my own play were better examples of a thor builds strength.
Whoooa that was so onesided it wasn't even funny..
Does no one have any useful strategies against this?
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On January 16 2011 22:46 Armsved wrote:Show nested quote +[B]To strike cannons: one thor is more expensive than one immortal. If one thor strike-cannons an immortal, this thor is dead vs the carriers. He won't survive to see another day. Therefore all you need is to keep the immortal-number high enough and constantly reproduce them, then you can defeat the thors comfortably and cost-effectively. This logic makes no sense in so many ways... So I should counter your collusus with marines because when your collusus kill my marines they will die to my vikings?
I understand your argument, but think the other way round - you should counter my colossi with vikings, because even if all your vikings die vs stalkers, if they manage to take out all my colossi, you win with MMM 
Translate this to: even if all the immortals die, the carriers are really hard to defeat once their number is high. Regardless of unit-composition. A mech-ing terran won't be able to reinforce with marines fast enough, and carriers own vikings once they reach a critical mass.
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if he is 1 shotting all of your immortals perhaps you should get hallucinate so he uses his cannons on your hallucinations. Anyhow, i dunno how you can be losing to mass thors, immortals are much cheaper so even if some are getting cannon'ed, you should be outnumbering him.
if they are meching off 2 base i think its safe to expand to 4 base, there you can support carriers.
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On January 17 2011 18:41 stroggos wrote:
if he is 1 shotting all of your immortals perhaps you should get hallucinate so he uses his cannons on your hallucinations. Anyhow, i dunno how you can be losing to mass thors, immortals are much cheaper so even if some are getting cannon'ed, you should be outnumbering him.
if they are meching off 2 base i think its safe to expand to 4 base, there you can support carriers.
If you'd bother to watch any of the two replays that have been posted, you'd know that its not nearly that simple.
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Iv'e encounterd this several times as well, by the time i saw his Thors i was already maxed out with a typical PVT army (stalker, zealot, temp, colossi) - so when i saw him i threw up addition 2 robo (3 in total) and a DT shrine.
I attacked and lost - he rolled over a couple of xpo's before my 9 immortals, several DT and mazz zealot rolled him over.
I also made a couple of temps to take care of the SCV that repair. I have an a replay back home if anyone want to see?
(2600 diamon)
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the real reason why you had lost
was that the terran got his blue flame hellion succesfully serveral times in your base
in other word it delayed eco army no timing
imo his amry was only marauder and thor
i highly doubt that you can win with mass gateway units and few immortals
and 20% of your stalker was not in position to fight when the main fight begun
and you get
the other thing
you wonder why you lost ?
you didnt harrased him at all
but imo
mass thors are scary and he had not even uppgrades
imagine 2/1 or 3/0 uppgrades on thors
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On January 17 2011 19:27 BBC.807 wrote:
Iv'e encounterd this several times as well, by the time i saw his Thors i was already maxed out with a typical PVT army (stalker, zealot, temp, colossi) - so when i saw him i threw up addition 2 robo (3 in total) and a DT shrine.
I attacked and lost - he rolled over a couple of xpo's before my 9 immortals, several DT and mazz zealot rolled him over.
I also made a couple of temps to take care of the SCV that repair. I have an a replay back home if anyone want to see?
(2600 diamon)
Please, by all means. I'd love too see how other people handle it
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On January 17 2011 19:48 perser84 wrote:
the real reason why you had lost
was that the terran got his blue flame hellion succesfully serveral times in your base
in other word it delayed eco army no timing
imo his amry was only marauder and thor
i highly doubt that you can win with mass gateway units and few immortals
and 20% of your stalker was not in position to fight when the main fight begun
and you get
the other thing
you wonder why you lost ?
you didnt harrased him at all
but imo
mass thors are scary and he had not even uppgrades
imagine 2/1 or 3/0 uppgrades on thors
You seem to think that I lost because my playstyle is NOT to harass.? I know he killed quite a few probes with those blueflame hellions, but I was still always ahead of him economically, because I expanded a lot earlier than him both times.
I've told a friend of mine to get 3-3 upgrades on thors and mass them, while I played more or less normally. I wasn't even funny how much it roflstomped me
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Master league terran. I havn't tried this strategy, but I am definitely going to give it a shot today. It seems to me that all the counters people are mentioning seem to be counterable by 1 reactor starport pumping some vikings (as long as you stay on top of scouting). Make thors until you see collosus/voids, then make an appropriate number of vikings to counter collosus/voids else make more thors. How would you deal with this?
I am still deciding whether I would use my armory for viking weapons or for thor armor because upgrading thor weapons is unnecessary vs protoss gateway army and not that effective vs immortals either because of how much dmg gets absorbed by shields anyway. Collosus will DEFINITELY be required by any protoss army as will be ALOT of excess minerals in any mass thor strategy so I would have alot of support marines/hellions, maybe a ghost as well to help with immortals/voidrays. If you don't hvae collosus or HTs to deal with the marines, I would imagine you have no chance.
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I'm having trouble with thors as well.
I played a T on steppes of war who went fast 2nd gas, so I felt safe with a 1 gate FE. I dropped a robo, chronod an obs and saw a single Thor. I then chrono boosted immortals nonstop.
He pushed out with a raven, 3 thors, scvs and maybe 15 marines. I had 5 or 6 immortals, 10ish zealots, 2 sentries, 6 stalkers. I thought I had a great composition to fight him since he never killed my obs...I could have done anything I wanted.
However, I got faceplanted, even focus firing the thors with immortals. The marines were focusing the immortal shields to nothing and the strike cannons of the thors cleaned up the rest.
I was clearly benefitting from the expo when he pushed, so I don't think it was a BO victory from him.
I didn't save the replay, but my limited experience of goin immortals to fight thors was not great. I'll try VR heavy next time I see it.
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On January 16 2011 20:01 Zacsafus wrote:
In fact i believe that magic box adds more skill to the game, the only bad part to it is that it makes thors completely worthless as anti air against anything. For example against zerg if they magic box their mutas, thors actually do less damage than a single stimmed marine because their splash isnt hitting anything.
The splash on the thors is to jsut punish bad micro, kind of makes it a game changing factor, meaning micro can have a huge impact on a fight. Only problem is that magic box is pretty easy to do :S Gief thors valkyrie attacks plz!!!
Despite the fact that magic box is "easy to do" it's actually a micro move beyond mass thors mass mmm a+move. This is why it is hard for Terran-only players to grasp, and it MUST be a glitch. You didn't a move and win? Hax!!!!
Terran is all about units that can a+move and beat almost anything, and are only countered by much higher tech, higher micro units... (and yeah all Terran units are low tech compared to toss or Zerg when you consider cost and time to get them)
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How about Day[9]'s "Archon Toilet"?
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On January 18 2011 00:40 Champ24 wrote:
I'm having trouble with thors as well.
I played a T on steppes of war who went fast 2nd gas, so I felt safe with a 1 gate FE. I dropped a robo, chronod an obs and saw a single Thor. I then chrono boosted immortals nonstop.
He pushed out with a raven, 3 thors, scvs and maybe 15 marines. I had 5 or 6 immortals, 10ish zealots, 2 sentries, 6 stalkers. I thought I had a great composition to fight him since he never killed my obs...I could have done anything I wanted.
However, I got faceplanted, even focus firing the thors with immortals. The marines were focusing the immortal shields to nothing and the strike cannons of the thors cleaned up the rest.
I was clearly benefitting from the expo when he pushed, so I don't think it was a BO victory from him.
I didn't save the replay, but my limited experience of goin immortals to fight thors was not great. I'll try VR heavy next time I see it.
What you're describing here seems to be more of a thor rush than a mass thor build. The usual way to deal with this (altough, I havent seen your replay, so I can't know for sure) is to sack your expo and move all your units up the ramp.
Sure you'll lose quite a bit of income, but seeing as he 1. probably hasn't expanded and 2. Pulled SCVs off the mineral line to repair his thors, you should still be plenty ahead. Keep pushing out units and your army should eventually overwhelm him. If he tried to push up your ramp, make sure to play around with the forcefield. Even though thors break ff, they tend to get stuck with marines between them, and unable to move either way.
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On January 18 2011 02:10 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2011 00:40 Champ24 wrote:
I'm having trouble with thors as well.
I played a T on steppes of war who went fast 2nd gas, so I felt safe with a 1 gate FE. I dropped a robo, chronod an obs and saw a single Thor. I then chrono boosted immortals nonstop.
He pushed out with a raven, 3 thors, scvs and maybe 15 marines. I had 5 or 6 immortals, 10ish zealots, 2 sentries, 6 stalkers. I thought I had a great composition to fight him since he never killed my obs...I could have done anything I wanted.
However, I got faceplanted, even focus firing the thors with immortals. The marines were focusing the immortal shields to nothing and the strike cannons of the thors cleaned up the rest.
I was clearly benefitting from the expo when he pushed, so I don't think it was a BO victory from him.
I didn't save the replay, but my limited experience of goin immortals to fight thors was not great. I'll try VR heavy next time I see it. What you're describing here seems to be more of a thor rush than a mass thor build. The usual way to deal with this (altough, I havent seen your replay, so I can't know for sure) is to sack your expo and move all your units up the ramp. Sure you'll lose quite a bit of income, but seeing as he 1. probably hasn't expanded and 2. Pulled SCVs off the mineral line to repair his thors, you should still be plenty ahead. Keep pushing out units and your army should eventually overwhelm him. If he tried to push up your ramp, make sure to play around with the forcefield. Even though thors break ff, they tend to get stuck with marines between them, and unable to move either way.
Yes, it was more of a rush than a drawn out game.
I'm not sure sacing the expo is the right move. He can sit outside the ramp with his thors and that would be incredibly difficult to break. Meanwhile, he expands and I lose the macro game.
If he pushed up I should easily win with concaved units, but the correct move for him is to camp and contain. The thors would eat anything that tries to walk out alive.
Edit: I had an epiphany...I should have contained him.
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On January 18 2011 02:31 Champ24 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2011 02:10 Excludos wrote:On January 18 2011 00:40 Champ24 wrote:
I'm having trouble with thors as well.
I played a T on steppes of war who went fast 2nd gas, so I felt safe with a 1 gate FE. I dropped a robo, chronod an obs and saw a single Thor. I then chrono boosted immortals nonstop.
He pushed out with a raven, 3 thors, scvs and maybe 15 marines. I had 5 or 6 immortals, 10ish zealots, 2 sentries, 6 stalkers. I thought I had a great composition to fight him since he never killed my obs...I could have done anything I wanted.
However, I got faceplanted, even focus firing the thors with immortals. The marines were focusing the immortal shields to nothing and the strike cannons of the thors cleaned up the rest.
I was clearly benefitting from the expo when he pushed, so I don't think it was a BO victory from him.
I didn't save the replay, but my limited experience of goin immortals to fight thors was not great. I'll try VR heavy next time I see it. What you're describing here seems to be more of a thor rush than a mass thor build. The usual way to deal with this (altough, I havent seen your replay, so I can't know for sure) is to sack your expo and move all your units up the ramp. Sure you'll lose quite a bit of income, but seeing as he 1. probably hasn't expanded and 2. Pulled SCVs off the mineral line to repair his thors, you should still be plenty ahead. Keep pushing out units and your army should eventually overwhelm him. If he tried to push up your ramp, make sure to play around with the forcefield. Even though thors break ff, they tend to get stuck with marines between them, and unable to move either way. Yes, it was more of a rush than a drawn out game. I'm not sure sacing the expo is the right move. He can sit outside the ramp with his thors and that would be incredibly difficult to break. Meanwhile, he expands and I lose the macro game. If he pushed up I should easily win with concaved units, but the correct move for him is to camp and contain. The thors would eat anything that tries to walk out alive.
His problem is that he had to draw scvs from his mineral line. Thats why you will be further and further ahead untill he's expanded, which is the exact time you should move out.
Then again, its hard for me to judge exactly. I'm used to people rushing with one thor + another on its way. And since I usually fast expand, sacking the expo is the only correct move for me.
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The thing about the splash on the thors is it means you have to COMMIT air units, you can't do the dart in, dart out focus fire micro with phoenix/muta because they ALWAYS clump when you do that.
+ Show Spoiler +Game 5 of GSL code S RO16 group d - oGsMC vs LiquidJinro is a pretty scary terran thor-based mech game.
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I personally never faced mass thors as protoss(at least not since I was in gold league) but shouldn't immortals or voids(spread out) be able to kill thors with relatively little trouble? Especially since voids got that buff against massive units.
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On January 18 2011 02:08 AbyssArray wrote:
How about Day[9]'s "Archon Toilet"?
just get a mothership really quick and float its slow fragile ass over the thors for vortex before it gets shot down by 2 volleys from range 10 vikings. Problem solved guys!
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On January 16 2011 10:36 PikaXchU wrote:
High Templar are not longer able to feedback Thors. So what's the use of getting a High Templar against Thor now? To attempt to storm the crap out of them?
Carriers should be the safest build, but if they scout them I don't know.... Maybe colossus too..
the only terran good counter to carriers is marine, which melt to storm. Vikings are only good if u really outnumber the carriers. And thors are bad againts carriers
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cost for cost vikings shit all over carriers by outnumber do you mean there has to be 5 vikings for 4 carriers? well obviously they cost more then double and thors while not so great against carriers rape interceptors making the carriers do no damage. most people who lose to carriers do so because they ignore interceptors and the ground army while trying to take out the carriers.
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Watched on max speed, some cliff notes:
- terrible army composition, never go that stalker heavy vs Terran
- questionable macro decisions, 3 forges instead of going for stuff like carriers
- zero pressure on the Terran
- not enough expansions (he was even/ahead on expos while doing a Thor build... that should never happen)
- you let him come to you and engaged at your nat, leaving you no option to rebuild your army
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On January 18 2011 11:08 Mercury- wrote:
Watched on max speed, some cliff notes:
- terrible army composition, never go that stalker heavy vs Terran
- questionable macro decisions, 3 forges instead of going for stuff like carriers
- zero pressure on the Terran
- not enough expansions (he was even/ahead on expos while doing a Thor build... that should never happen)
- you let him come to you and engaged at your nat, leaving you no option to rebuild your army
Army composition is something that has come up a lot. Can't but agree on that.
With my leftover gas, I could have gone both carriers and 3 forges..
This is about playstyles, and I do not feel like I lost because I didn't try to drop vs his 50 turrets that where spread around his base.. You can't really pressure a meching terran on that map.
He was never ahead on expoes? I expanded earlier than him both times. When he attacked, we where both on 3 bases, yes. But thats because I felt that he was going for a 200/200 attack and didn't feel safe expanding again. I probably should have, thought..
This is a very terran'ish though process. "I am going to attack and then rebuild my army". This does not work with protoss who is dependent on the collosus/immortas or whatnot you have to make outside of the gateway. Since he attacked me, I had the upper hand with that I could warp inn reinforcements right into the battle (Which, if you had slowed down, you'd see that I warped in 12 stalkers in the back. Since the marines was dead, I should probably have gone with zealots instead)
Again, not saying I didn't do mistakes, god no. But I think you are a bit off because we have different playstyles
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Semantic question, can warp prisms pickup units under 250mm strike cannon?
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On January 18 2011 23:28 Carefoot wrote:
Semantic question, can warp prisms pickup units under 250mm strike cannon?
Yes, and the dmg will instantly stop. It is fully possible to use this to micro your immortals. There is just 2 problems: 1. If you have more than 6 immortals this is going to be difficult. 2. warp prisms dies incredible easy to thor AA
EDIT: Just tried is with the unit tester, and it would not allow me to pick up the immortal after it has started taking damage from the 250mm cannon. Not sure if this is accurate or not. WIll have to do further testing.
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I really think you must out expand him and constanly hit him, Charged Zealots would work good I think.
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Not saying I know what will work or even trying to sound like I know what I'm talking about, but if I remember right in the Challenges for Single Player where you divide up your units and try to lose under a certain amount, the hint was to use the carriers on the thors. And if you did it was so easy to micro the carriers away and absolutely own them even in mass. And someone else said HT's for support, you can storm the viks to so that both are countered.
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So is thor builds in PvT the new trend? I've been seeing a lot of player mixing in thors in w/ their bio lately, w/ mixed success.
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one thing i am very confident will work is mass rays and or chargelit immortas colosi but with the game changeing unit the mothership
as i see it the mothership is a great tank against thor
it will cloak the immortals and rays and chargelots
with the added bonus of vortexing half his army
(f you have enough archons you can thow them in the vortex t onoe sho the thor XP)
if he scans then either he will kill chargelots immortals or voidrays but by that time the thors will be killed
(i always get + 3 sheild vs terrain for marines that and with a few sentries for guardian sheild thethor's air damage will be very weak)
if he gets vikings you must vortex them first
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Microed Collosus actually do pretty good. Sure if I manage to get of a sucessful 250mm cannon your collosi will die. But the collosus out ranges the thors cannon ability so if you move forward and see the cannons coming out back the collosus up and the thor's strike cannon attack gets canceled because the target is out of range. However, Im not sure if it makes the cannons go on cooldown or not.... maybe I should go test that real quick.
The cannons still have a little bit of range outside the range indicate by the white spell circle. so You have to move the unit just a little bit further so the cannon ability cancels. However it does not make the thor go on cooldown for the ability meaning if it fails due to a collosus moving out of its range the thor will put up his guns and as soon as that animation is done you can tell it to select a new target.
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you shouldn't use Immortals (at least not mass) once he gets 250 mm. Their canon is supposed to keep mech viable. If Immortals > Thors even after that upgrade, then there would be almost never any good reason to mech in TvP.
Also Colossi move faster don't they? So they could kite. But anyways mass Colossi isn't what I want to suggest.
You could either go air with mass voids or just in general air, so that you can exploit the Thor's immobility, possibly killing all or most of his workers when he pushes out so that you effectively force him to all in. Mass voids versus mass Thors would win btw.
Zealots also work pretty well considering their cost efficiency against the Thors. So a mixture of Zealots + Voids, with a couple of sentries for Guardian Shield and some Immortals made out of an otherwise idle Robo should be great.
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On January 22 2011 09:04 terranghost wrote:
Microed Collosus actually do pretty good. Sure if I manage to get of a sucessful 250mm cannon your collosi will die. But the collosus out ranges the thors cannon ability so if you move forward and see the cannons coming out back the collosus up and the thor's strike cannon attack gets canceled because the target is out of range. However, Im not sure if it makes the cannons go on cooldown or not.... maybe I should go test that real quick.
The cannons still have a little bit of range outside the range indicate by the white spell circle. so You have to move the unit just a little bit further so the cannon ability cancels. However it does not make the thor go on cooldown for the ability meaning if it fails due to a collosus moving out of its range the thor will put up his guns and as soon as that animation is done you can tell it to select a new target.
I would just like to state that you are actually wrong on this one. As even happened once in the replay. Once the thor is within range and starts rising those canons from his back, it does not matter that you move your collosus back, it will still get stunned, take damage, and die..even if it is outside range.
Edit: Also just tried this with the unit tester. Once the thor has locked onto its target, even tho it hasn't started doing damage yet, it will still start shooting way outside of its range.
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On January 22 2011 09:17 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
you shouldn't use Immortals (at least not mass) once he gets 250 mm. Their canon is supposed to keep mech viable. If Immortals > Thors even after that upgrade, then there would be almost never any good reason to mech in TvP.
Also Colossi move faster don't they? So they could kite. But anyways mass Colossi isn't what I want to suggest.
You could either go air with mass voids or just in general air, so that you can exploit the Thor's immobility, possibly killing all or most of his workers when he pushes out so that you effectively force him to all in. Mass voids versus mass Thors would win btw.
Zealots also work pretty well considering their cost efficiency against the Thors. So a mixture of Zealots + Voids, with a couple of sentries for Guardian Shield and some Immortals made out of an otherwise idle Robo should be great.
Much like terran mech is now countering every single protoss ground unit? Yepp, sounds agreeable.
As has been stated several times. Yes, collosus can kite, but if the collosus gets within the range of the thors 250mm even for a split second, it instantly dies.
I have fiddled with air a lot more for this matchup, and voidrays (if you micro them propperly) does do incredibly well vs thors. Its not about immobility though, because the thors doesn't siege. They move around exactly as quickly as a regular protoss army does. If you try to "abuse mobility" against terran mech in PvT, you could very easily just end up losing to a push.
Zealots might do well vs thors alone, but theres this phenomenon where if the terran has enough bio units, the dps of the bio ball becomes so high that nearly infinte zealots vaporize before they even reach the terran units (something I have burned myself on a lot of times, as I am one who usually include speedlots in my build).
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Please guys, before you come forward with any more theories. At least go into the unit test map on starcraft 2, build around 5 thors and 2 control group of marines, and see what cost equivalent protoss units actually beats that. (the answer is: it doesn't exist)
But thats not to say that the mass thor build doesn't have any weaknesses. That is why I wish that any players even remotely high on the ladder could tell me what their experience is.
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On January 22 2011 09:26 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2011 09:04 terranghost wrote:
Microed Collosus actually do pretty good. Sure if I manage to get of a sucessful 250mm cannon your collosi will die. But the collosus out ranges the thors cannon ability so if you move forward and see the cannons coming out back the collosus up and the thor's strike cannon attack gets canceled because the target is out of range. However, Im not sure if it makes the cannons go on cooldown or not.... maybe I should go test that real quick.
The cannons still have a little bit of range outside the range indicate by the white spell circle. so You have to move the unit just a little bit further so the cannon ability cancels. However it does not make the thor go on cooldown for the ability meaning if it fails due to a collosus moving out of its range the thor will put up his guns and as soon as that animation is done you can tell it to select a new target. I would just like to state that you are actually wrong on this one. As even happened once in the replay. Once the thor is within range and starts rising those canons from his back, it does not matter that you move your collosus back, it will still get stunned, take damage, and die..even if it is outside range. Edit: Also just tried this with the unit tester. Once the thor has locked onto its target, even tho it hasn't started doing damage yet, it will still start shooting way outside of its range.
You are free to believe me or not that is your choice. I did it in the unit tester too. If you look at what I said, On January 22 2011 09:04 terranghost wrote:The cannons still have a little bit of range outside the range indicate by the white spell circle. So you do have to constantly kite you your objective is to try not to let them get into range with the cannons. If they are attacking you with their main guns then they are in range for the cannons. I do admit that the cannons can still attack outside of the circle but it isn't unlimited range like the yamato cannon even a stimmed marine couldn't out run that.
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A ball of mass colossi will evaporate a ball of mass thors. Immortals are very good against them too when armies are fairly big - the thors get focused and killed before they can unleash their cannons as in tlo vs sangho. Chargalots annihilate thors for cost (although not for supply - make sure you stay on top of armour upgrades so thors don't 2 shot them). Thors are countered so bad by non stargate units anyway there is no need for vr/carrier but they are always an option. One thing to note - don't get stalkers - thors destroy them.
Edit - you could add one carrier to tank the damage as as far as I know thors auto target air over ground.
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On January 22 2011 09:56 Excludos wrote:
Please guys, before you come forward with any more theories. At least go into the unit test map on starcraft 2, build around 5 thors and 2 control group of marines, and see what cost equivalent protoss units actually beats that. (the answer is: it doesn't exist)
But thats not to say that the mass thor build doesn't have any weaknesses. That is why I wish that any players even remotely high on the ladder could tell me what their experience is.
Try 5 colossi with lance and equivalent cost of chargalots to marines.
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i have encounterd this build a few times. The best counter i have done is vr and immortal backed up by gateway units. need to have charge on zealots if it goes into mid-late game. just vr or just immortal gets raped by thors. Sucks that us brotoss needs a combined units just to take down the mighty thor but with the combo we can.
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On January 16 2011 12:33 Orlando Mavado wrote:
Magic Box is a serious glitch that needs to be patched out as it completely negates the effectiveness of combined splash.
What if Blizzard had patched out the 11 muta + overlord thing in BW? Sounds like you're on the QQ train to me.
Magic Box is one of the few ways to use skill to defeat this Mass Thor idea. OP must've thought Magic Box was only for Mutas. It works for any air unit that needs to be spread to avoid splash.
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On January 18 2011 22:20 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2011 11:08 Mercury- wrote:
Watched on max speed, some cliff notes:
- terrible army composition, never go that stalker heavy vs Terran
- questionable macro decisions, 3 forges instead of going for stuff like carriers
- zero pressure on the Terran
- not enough expansions (he was even/ahead on expos while doing a Thor build... that should never happen)
- you let him come to you and engaged at your nat, leaving you no option to rebuild your army Army composition is something that has come up a lot. Can't but agree on that. With my leftover gas, I could have gone both carriers and 3 forges.. This is about playstyles, and I do not feel like I lost because I didn't try to drop vs his 50 turrets that where spread around his base.. You can't really pressure a meching terran on that map. He was never ahead on expoes? I expanded earlier than him both times. When he attacked, we where both on 3 bases, yes. But thats because I felt that he was going for a 200/200 attack and didn't feel safe expanding again. I probably should have, thought.. This is a very terran'ish though process. "I am going to attack and then rebuild my army". This does not work with protoss who is dependent on the collosus/immortas or whatnot you have to make outside of the gateway. Since he attacked me, I had the upper hand with that I could warp inn reinforcements right into the battle (Which, if you had slowed down, you'd see that I warped in 12 stalkers in the back. Since the marines was dead, I should probably have gone with zealots instead) Again, not saying I didn't do mistakes, god no. But I think you are a bit off because we have different playstyles
Um that's how you combat Thors, it's not a question of playstyles. You expo around the map because his army is too immobile and relies on critical mass. Then you try to engage him as far away from your own base as possible as soon as you see an opening. Your army will most likely get killed but he will take heavy losses, you then instantrebuild with WGates + whatever robo and SGates you have and finish him off. This is how it works with Zerg too except Zerg can need up to 4 waves sometimes because their units suck in high numbers.
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You're at the 10 minute mark and you have an army of 9 stalkers and 4 zealots and 3 sentries. You have no cannons at your backdoor, no observers at this time. I can think of a million ways Terran can make a Protoss pay for being a macro probe ho with zero regard for surviving on this map.
I think you're looking at this replay and saying you lost because Terran produced Thors and Marauders and there is no counter too them. There are quite a few good counters that use normal unit mix (Stalker/Immortal/Sentry is just fine).
You lose because you decide to turtle with no defense against any harass. I never saw you do anything during that time except fail at a simple backdoor defense against 3 hellions who ripped through 30 probes.
At the 15 minute mark you don't even have 1/1 researched, no blink, and are making a colossus instead of immortal? Still no observer over your main army.
You lost because you made bad decisions.15 sentries at the final battle and you throw down 2 forcefields? What were the colossus even for?
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On January 23 2011 02:18 murkk wrote:
You're at the 10 minute mark and you have an army of 9 stalkers and 4 zealots and 3 sentries. You have no cannons at your backdoor, no observers at this time. I can think of a million ways Terran can make a Protoss pay for being a macro probe ho with zero regard for surviving on this map.
I think you're looking at this replay and saying you lost because Terran produced Thors and Marauders and there is no counter too them. There are quite a few good counters that use normal unit mix (Stalker/Immortal/Sentry is just fine).
You lose because you decide to turtle with no defense against any harass. I never saw you do anything during that time except fail at a simple backdoor defense against 3 hellions who ripped through 30 probes.
At the 15 minute mark you don't even have 1/1 researched, no blink, and are making a colossus instead of immortal? Still no observer over your main army.
You lost because you made bad decisions.15 sentries at the final battle and you throw down 2 forcefields? What were the colossus even for?
With all due respect, this is my standard PvT build, I know how to make it work and how to react to what the terran is doing. You can't just say "If I had gone this build then you would just die", because if he had done anything else, then I would have reacted differently too.
How is Stalker/immortal/sentry ANY counter to thors? Seriously? Those might be the 3 worst units you can make against them.. (In a direct combat that is. I have not tried abusing blink stalkers vs thors, which people have stated should work)).
(warning: Wall of text)
I do not mind feedback, but this feels like you trying to be harsh just for the sake of it. Why I had collosus? Might be because he also had marines + the fact that collosus outrange thors. Sure I lost probes, but you will also notice I was never BEHIND on workers. I could probably win if I didn't lose a single probe, but that is starcraft, you can't really know what is going to happen every single match. No matter what you say, he was behind me in economy and resources 95% of the game. His minerals spent on army was bigger than mine at the end, but I was able to immediately warp in 8 stalkers instead. Why would I need an observer over my main army? I knew what he was not going for cloaked banshees. Sure it wont hurt, but I rather scout around with them. The massive amounts of sentries was a bad attempt at lowering my high gas count, and a mistake. But Its not like I didn't use them. I threw down a lot of forcefields that just disappeared right away because thors trample them, and I used guardian shield.
Please, don't just rant for the sake of ranting. Its not helping me even in the slightest.
With that said, I have learned from this thread. After taking the feedback from everyone, + playing around with friends and unit test map, it seems like you should either try to abuse mobility with blink stalkers, in map where this is possible, or go for voidrays combined with collosus and gateway units with focus on speedlots. Voidrays are really really good vs thors, but also dies incredibly fast vs the marines. This is why you'll need collosus and normal gateway units as well. If there are marines around the thors, the thors will have trouble moving around, and thus the small 2 longer range on the collosus can actually be exploited.
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On January 23 2011 02:07 Mercury- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2011 22:20 Excludos wrote:On January 18 2011 11:08 Mercury- wrote:
Watched on max speed, some cliff notes:
- terrible army composition, never go that stalker heavy vs Terran
- questionable macro decisions, 3 forges instead of going for stuff like carriers
- zero pressure on the Terran
- not enough expansions (he was even/ahead on expos while doing a Thor build... that should never happen)
- you let him come to you and engaged at your nat, leaving you no option to rebuild your army Army composition is something that has come up a lot. Can't but agree on that. With my leftover gas, I could have gone both carriers and 3 forges.. This is about playstyles, and I do not feel like I lost because I didn't try to drop vs his 50 turrets that where spread around his base.. You can't really pressure a meching terran on that map. He was never ahead on expoes? I expanded earlier than him both times. When he attacked, we where both on 3 bases, yes. But thats because I felt that he was going for a 200/200 attack and didn't feel safe expanding again. I probably should have, thought.. This is a very terran'ish though process. "I am going to attack and then rebuild my army". This does not work with protoss who is dependent on the collosus/immortas or whatnot you have to make outside of the gateway. Since he attacked me, I had the upper hand with that I could warp inn reinforcements right into the battle (Which, if you had slowed down, you'd see that I warped in 12 stalkers in the back. Since the marines was dead, I should probably have gone with zealots instead) Again, not saying I didn't do mistakes, god no. But I think you are a bit off because we have different playstyles Um that's how you combat Thors, it's not a question of playstyles. You expo around the map because his army is too immobile and relies on critical mass. Then you try to engage him as far away from your own base as possible as soon as you see an opening. Your army will most likely get killed but he will take heavy losses, you then instantrebuild with WGates + whatever robo and SGates you have and finish him off. This is how it works with Zerg too except Zerg can need up to 4 waves sometimes because their units suck in high numbers.
Thats where I was getting at. Gateway units are the worst units in the game for their cost, and you can't make your entire army on only them. Everyone knows this, and this is why you will see collosus, air units or templars in a game that runs longer than 14 minutes. If you kill your entire army as terran, you can bundle up another army of marines and marauders in your main, and you're good to go. If you lose your entire army as zerg, you can click on whatever hotkey you use for hatcheries, make whatever unit you want, and have a new army to use within seconds.
If you lose your entire army as protoss, you can NOT click on your waprgates and warp in 40 stalkers/zealots and attack again. Your army might cost the same as the one you just lost, but it will instantly die to anything the other 2 races can make. You need those T2/3 units, and they take a lot of time to make. This is why you can't just suicide your army, kill all of his marines, make more gateway units, and attack again.
With all due respect, this is basics. Every protoss knows this. That is why I hinted that this is "a very terran way to think".
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On January 16 2011 11:50 Orlando Mavado wrote:Show nested quote +I'm assuming that the void rays got shot down by splash because they didn't have time to spread out. Also, did you engage in a choke? Engaged on that platform thing, both armies attack-moving no micro. The Thors were actually at a disadvantage because I didn't have 20 SCVs with them, so no repairing.
Attack moving puts VR's at a GIGANTIC disadvantage, press stop on the VRS and then fly them over the thors, I'm sure they'll trash them esp with upgs.
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Something funny that I know never realistically happens, Zealots are hilariously cost effective versus thors if they surround.... VORTEX AND THEN THROW ALL YOUR ZEALOTS IN!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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If I went thors the scariest thing I would be afraid of are dt or air like voids or carriers. If you scout with your observer and see thors get a warp prism and warp some dts around his base because if terran goes thors he gonna have very low detection. You would be surprised how fast dts kill thors if they are undetected. Thors biggest weakness is usually air though so I would prefer carriers over voids because the only really counter to carriers are upgraded marines or butt load of vikings which terran won't afford if he goes thors and if he gets butt load of vikings it game over goes you will warp in a ton of zealots which kill vikings pretty fast.
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upgraded chargelots, HTs and upgraded voidrays should do the trick
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On January 16 2011 09:17 Orlando Mavado wrote:
Rank 2 Master League Terran here-
I made a post about Mass Thor in TvP, alas the moderators didn't approve of a non-barracks centric strategy so it was closed. Thors are viable and they counter all gateway and robotics units- even Voidrays.
However, Thors have one weakness in TvP: Mass Carriers with High Templar support.
the mods are so bad here. ive seen them make horrible calls time after time after time. TL thrives despite them, not b/c of them. Much like how the US yet thrives despite social programs.
carriers aren't too expensive? a thor-centric build would naturally call for marines or vikings depending on the response of P. wouldn't HT for feedback on thors, as well as storm on possible marine supports be less time costly and with less alternate tech routes? going HT, u can incorporate tossing DT's to use scans.
I feel if u go starport, u want to fight with starport units, if u go gate, u want to fight iwth high tech gate units. HT's seem less risky, and good against marines as well as thors.
btw do thors' attack priority go to air units? one might sprinkle in a few voids or few phoenix to mess with thor AI to bolster your own ground army. assuming u had stargates for some other reason prior of course. u don't nec want to switch just to get a couple of voids or phoenix.
T could throw in banshees as a possibility, and HT's wouldn't be bad against that either.
I wouldn't go colossi to deal with marines. it's too time and investment heavy, and severely reduces the beefiness of your army. HT's are plenty good for marines, do well against thors and potential ravens/banshees, cost less tech, and aren't vulnerable to vikings.
In a nutshell, i'd like to agree with what this guy said
On January 23 2011 07:37 JeanLuc wrote:
upgraded chargelots, HTs and upgraded voidrays should do the trick
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Blazinghand
United States25552 Posts
On January 23 2011 07:47 waffling1 wrote:
the mods are so bad here. ive seen them make horrible calls time after time after time. TL thrives despite them, not b/c of them. Much like how the US yet thrives despite social programs.
carriers aren't too expensive? a thor-centric build would naturally call for marines or vikings depending on the response of P. wouldn't HT for feedback on thors, as well as storm on possible marine supports be less time costly and with less alternate tech routes? going HT, u can incorporate tossing DT's to use scans.
Thors don't have energy, so i'm not sure feedback would be the best response to a thor-heavy build.
I do like the idea of air to either provide good damage, or mess with the thor AI. I think Void rays, given the recent buff, should be effective. I'll try this out in a few games against P and see how they respond.
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned the main benefit that you have all the freaken time in the world to prepare for a mass thor push, plus you have map control. Set up for the inevitable engagement, make sure you get a better concave, and make sure the engagement occurs where you want it to occur.
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On January 23 2011 09:12 Blazinghand wrote:
I do like the idea of air to either provide good damage, or mess with the thor AI. I think Void rays, given the recent buff, should be effective. I'll try this out in a few games against P and see how they respond.
That would be awesome. Tell me how it goes
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You can go 4 base 6 robo colossus if he gets exclusively thors. Colossi beat thors since colossi can kite.
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Or you can be smart.... Mech against protoss sucks for one reason. Hallucinated immortals. I forget whose stream I was watching, but some master league protoss got tank/thor contained on l.t. just like jinro vs MC. He went for a bunch of hallucinated immortals and busted the entire tank marine line and lost like five zealots total.
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Not sure if someone actually mentioned this little gem but dude did you somehow miss the 25 marauders included in that push?
He had 25 when the battle began and 22 when it was over.
Your army was composed of sentries (nice but against thors pretty useless), 5 immortals (nice but their range sucks pretty badly so they need to be microed carefully which these were not), 2 colossi (far too few to make an impact honestly) 5 zealots (maybe 6 or 7) without charge and 28 stalkers.
Now considering that stalkers are probably the single worst unit in the protoss arsenal to face thors and marauders i guess we can conclude reasonably well that you were building the wrong units.
Once your observer sees him going for a pretty much pure mech, marauder force you should have started building air units. Hell you'd have had enough time to build 8 carriers off 2 base considering how long he waited.
Possible tech paths which might have led to victory: Chargelots (and lots of them, but honestly against a 200 max army i don't think they would get the surface area to do the trick), Colossi (he had 12 thors, you could have had 8 colossi), high templars (considering how he clumped into a tight ball 2 or 3 storms to ruin the marauders would have been nice), Voidrays or carriers (preferrebly void rays tbh).
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On January 23 2011 10:23 Abstinence wrote:
You can go 4 base 6 robo colossus if he gets exclusively thors. Colossi beat thors since colossi can kite.
Or you could read any of my 20 posts in this thread about how they can't. Once the collosus gets in range of the 250mm canon (and it will, since it has to stand still to fire), the 250mm will get a lock on and fire even if you move the collosus away.
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On January 23 2011 10:29 Boundless wrote:
Or you can be smart.... Mech against protoss sucks for one reason. Hallucinated immortals. I forget whose stream I was watching, but some master league protoss got tank/thor contained on l.t. just like jinro vs MC. He went for a bunch of hallucinated immortals and busted the entire tank marine line and lost like five zealots total.
Love your thinking. If I had thought of that in the match I uploaded, I could very well have won the attack (seeing as I had like 15 sentries anyways).
Will definitively try this next time
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I do not mind feedback, but this feels like you trying to be harsh just for the sake of it .
Not trying to be evil, but you didn't lose because of Thors. You didn't MOVE or engage the entire game. You defended poorly against hellions. You didn't get upgrades. You created a poor composition of units. You didn't use FFs in the final battle even though you had close to 60 saved up. You didn't do anything but warp a bunch of guys into a ball and sit there for 18 minutes.
By the sounds of it, you're pretty good. But I think the best thing you can do if you want to improve and get into the more elite ranks is BE HARSH on yourself. This game was simply bad.
I am a Protoss who just got promoted to Master League
With all due respect, this is my standard PvT build, I know how to make it work and how to react to what the terran is doing.
Since your a master league guy wanted to get better, you should look at some pro protoss players and how they play. I like looking an InControl but find someone who's really good and watch how they move around, abuse players, and make changes in their build order.
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On January 23 2011 11:48 murkk wrote:Show nested quote +I do not mind feedback, but this feels like you trying to be harsh just for the sake of it . Not trying to be evil, but you didn't lose because of Thors. You didn't MOVE or engage the entire game. You defended poorly against hellions. You didn't get upgrades. You created a poor composition of units. You didn't use FFs in the final battle even though you had close to 60 saved up. You didn't do anything but warp a bunch of guys into a ball and sit there for 18 minutes. By the sounds of it, you're pretty good. But I think the best thing you can do if you want to improve and get into the more elite ranks is BE HARSH on yourself. This game was simply bad.
I love being harsh with myself. But I don't like it when people look at your replay and go "mhm, mhm. You suck!", which is how you come out in both of your replies. This is not constructive feedback, this is just ranting.
case in point: "You created a poor composition of units"..now how am I suppose to learn from that? Instead you could go "You should probably have gone voidrays in the midgame", or my favorite reply of this thread so far: "Hallucination", which would have made my sentries a lot more useful.
(and why do you keep saying I didn't use ff? I spammed like 20 of them around, but they disappear right away if they are even remotely close to the thor)
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case in point: "You created a poor composition of units"..now how am I suppose to learn from that? Instead you could go "You should probably have gone voidrays in the midgame", or my favorite reply of this thread so far: "Hallucination", which would have made my sentries a lot more useful.
The poor unit composition was one of my points, and perhaps the least relevant.
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I love being harsh with myself. But I don't like it when people look at your replay and go "mhm, mhm. You suck!", which is how you come out in both of your replies. This is not constructive feedback, this is just ranting.
I never said you sucked. I said you played this game poorly. It was bad. I gave specific reasons why. Sorry it wasn't the "void rays are good against carriers and colossus not so much" kinda advice, since I had assumed a master level player would know this.
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On January 23 2011 11:56 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 11:48 murkk wrote:I do not mind feedback, but this feels like you trying to be harsh just for the sake of it . Not trying to be evil, but you didn't lose because of Thors. You didn't MOVE or engage the entire game. You defended poorly against hellions. You didn't get upgrades. You created a poor composition of units. You didn't use FFs in the final battle even though you had close to 60 saved up. You didn't do anything but warp a bunch of guys into a ball and sit there for 18 minutes. By the sounds of it, you're pretty good. But I think the best thing you can do if you want to improve and get into the more elite ranks is BE HARSH on yourself. This game was simply bad. I love being harsh with myself. But I don't like it when people look at your replay and go "mhm, mhm. You suck!", which is how you come out in both of your replies. This is not constructive feedback, this is just ranting. case in point: "You created a poor composition of units"..now how am I suppose to learn from that? Instead you could go "You should probably have gone voidrays in the midgame", or my favorite reply of this thread so far: "Hallucination", which would have made my sentries a lot more useful. (and why do you keep saying I didn't use ff? I spammed like 20 of them around, but they disappear right away if they are even remotely close to the thor)
I tried to write a constructive critique but it seems you missed it. The two absolutly useless units against thor/marauders are stalkers and sentries. Next time build something else (I'm close to saying ANYTHING else, but that is over the top as well). Also your initial post completly ignored the rather huge marauder army he had.
Frankly those marauders with 2 ghosts and 20 marines to focus fire your immortals would have destroyed you as well.
A heavy stalker mix only works against T if they are blink stalkers against specific builds, as soon as he starts to go for heavy mara you need to switch to zealots/sentries and try to get charge ASAP.
In general you need to play more active. Do something with your units :D Destroy the rocks at your gold and build a base there. Hell if he goes for hardcore turtle build 2-3 bases over the map. Then build more warpgates and when he attacks swarm him with chargelots.
Also pay more attention to your minimap. You should have seen the medivac leave for the first hellion drop, and you definitly should have seen it for the 2nd and 3rd. 3 Stalkers on the ledge behind your natural stop such drops easily (Ps: Delta is probably the best map for blink stalker abuse, make use of such advantadges)
One last specific comment for DQ: If he turtles on 2 base with the backdoor base, run your 2 colossi up there and flame down his workers. He didn't have a single viking (which you knew) to stop that.
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On January 23 2011 12:48 Tula wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 11:56 Excludos wrote:On January 23 2011 11:48 murkk wrote:I do not mind feedback, but this feels like you trying to be harsh just for the sake of it . Not trying to be evil, but you didn't lose because of Thors. You didn't MOVE or engage the entire game. You defended poorly against hellions. You didn't get upgrades. You created a poor composition of units. You didn't use FFs in the final battle even though you had close to 60 saved up. You didn't do anything but warp a bunch of guys into a ball and sit there for 18 minutes. By the sounds of it, you're pretty good. But I think the best thing you can do if you want to improve and get into the more elite ranks is BE HARSH on yourself. This game was simply bad. I love being harsh with myself. But I don't like it when people look at your replay and go "mhm, mhm. You suck!", which is how you come out in both of your replies. This is not constructive feedback, this is just ranting. case in point: "You created a poor composition of units"..now how am I suppose to learn from that? Instead you could go "You should probably have gone voidrays in the midgame", or my favorite reply of this thread so far: "Hallucination", which would have made my sentries a lot more useful. (and why do you keep saying I didn't use ff? I spammed like 20 of them around, but they disappear right away if they are even remotely close to the thor) I tried to write a constructive critique but it seems you missed it. The two absolutly useless units against thor/marauders are stalkers and sentries. Next time build something else (I'm close to saying ANYTHING else, but that is over the top as well). Also your initial post completly ignored the rather huge marauder army he had. Frankly those marauders with 2 ghosts and 20 marines to focus fire your immortals would have destroyed you as well. A heavy stalker mix only works against T if they are blink stalkers against specific builds, as soon as he starts to go for heavy mara you need to switch to zealots/sentries and try to get charge ASAP. In general you need to play more active. Do something with your units :D Destroy the rocks at your gold and build a base there. Hell if he goes for hardcore turtle build 2-3 bases over the map. Then build more warpgates and when he attacks swarm him with chargelots. Also pay more attention to your minimap. You should have seen the medivac leave for the first hellion drop, and you definitly should have seen it for the 2nd and 3rd. 3 Stalkers on the ledge behind your natural stop such drops easily (Ps: Delta is probably the best map for blink stalker abuse, make use of such advantadges) One last specific comment for DQ: If he turtles on 2 base with the backdoor base, run your 2 colossi up there and flame down his workers. He didn't have a single viking (which you knew) to stop that.
I havent gotten around to replying to you yet. Not sure why you took my reply to him and decided it was pointed to you as well. Infact, I agree completely with everything you've said.
I probably should have mentioned the bio ball in my original post, but I really thought it goes without saying that he would have some bio units togheter with his thors. The problem is that any units that the protoss have to make to survive against mass bio (collosus, immortals) the thors just simply wreck with the 250mm cannon. HT wouldn't be such a bad solution vs the bio, but I am reluctant to see how a few HT in my unit mix would have turned the tide of that battle (Not saying it wouldn't help, but I have tried most unit mixes vs a friend in costum games, and he still tramples me).
And if you want to take care of the thors, who also does quite a large bit of damage, any unit you make (Voidrays, carriers, to a ceertain degree: speedlots) will have their day ruined by the bio ball.
I agree that I probably made the worst unit mix possible in that specific replay. But the matter of the fact is: there is no "good" unit mix vs mass thors + bio..there is only "Less worse".
Everything else you've said I've taken into account. Of course I should have seen the drop, of course I should have defended the drop better, and of course I should have made a lot less stalkers and a lot less sentries. (And I should probably have expanded more often, but he was already dropping me wherever my units wasn't. And for me, while playing, It certainly didn't feel safe expanding again, knowing he could be attacking any second.
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I think that I saw a unit test Thors vs. Void Rays once. There were about 20 thors vs. 50 void rays.
If the void rays were all clumped up, the thors would will the battle and there would be still like 5-6 thors left.
If the void rays were spread (avoiding the splash damage) there would be 20 void rays left after this battle.
Void rays may be your best bet to stop mass thors, that with a lot of cheap zealots (and will draw the fire). Of course this is all theorycraft, I haven`t seen a real situation where this happens, but you can ask your practice friend to try that out.
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Isn't it reasonable for the toss to get a mothership and save energy for a key vortex before a huge amount of thors begins to bash at your front door?
By the time a terran masses a huge amount of thors, by huge amount of thors I'm thinking 5+, your mothership should have enough energy. It takes roughly 3 minutes making the mothership (less because of chronoboosts) and another 2 minutes to get enough energy for a vortex.
Any combination with void rays, colossus, carriers, or immortals has a 50/50 chance with mass thor/x with good micro (obviously). Again thor immobility plays a key role in catching a section of them with vortex. Depending on the vortex the toss should be able to snipe a reasonable section of the terran army before the terran shoves all his units into the toilet.
If you don't want to win up in a straight fight you can still abuse thor immobility with mass recall hit and run tactics.
Just a reminder: The mothership is not a fighting unit. It is a support/tank unit. Use it to tank damage/split forces not fight with. It has 350 shields 350 health and two armor. Thor volley is four shots +7 damage to armored 0/0/0, therefore mothership would reduce this to +5 when they're eating the mothership health, not shield. If the terran has a raven it should be easily shot down, if terran scans and goes for your units the mothership would have time to vortex a godlike angle of his forces. The terran would be requied to have 8 or so vikings to effectively snipe the mothership, denying minerals from his ground army.
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On January 23 2011 23:01 Excludos wrote:
I probably should have mentioned the bio ball in my original post, but I really thought it goes without saying that he would have some bio units togheter with his thors. The problem is that any units that the protoss have to make to survive against mass bio (collosus, immortals) the thors just simply wreck with the 250mm cannon. HT wouldn't be such a bad solution vs the bio, but I am reluctant to see how a few HT in my unit mix would have turned the tide of that battle (Not saying it wouldn't help, but I have tried most unit mixes vs a friend in costum games, and he still tramples me).
And if you want to take care of the thors, who also does quite a large bit of damage, any unit you make (Voidrays, carriers, to a ceertain degree: speedlots) will have their day ruined by the bio ball.
I agree that I probably made the worst unit mix possible in that specific replay. But the matter of the fact is: there is no "good" unit mix vs mass thors + bio..there is only "Less worse".
Everything else you've said I've taken into account. Of course I should have seen the drop, of course I should have defended the drop better, and of course I should have made a lot less stalkers and a lot less sentries. (And I should probably have expanded more often, but he was already dropping me wherever my units wasn't. And for me, while playing, It certainly didn't feel safe expanding again, knowing he could be attacking any second.
In general i'd agree to some extent, but you still missed my point. Your observer saw the specific bioball he was building (pure marauder after the few marines he built at the start). If an opponent gives you such an opening the choice what you must do is clear, get out those voidrays
Your opponent left himself completly open against air attacks and focused 100% on vs. Ground army (well let's say 95% since he does have those thors even if they suck if you aren't building light air units). Against this composition you only have 2 choices to work with: 1) light ground units (meaning zealots) and frankly i don't think you can get enough surface area to make those work against that ball or 2) non-light air units. Anything else is pretty much hopeless (maybe massive psi storm fields, but that would definitly not be cost effective).
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On January 18 2011 23:28 Carefoot wrote:
Semantic question, can warp prisms pickup units under 250mm strike cannon? No. If the unit it stunned, it can not be picked up.
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EarlyAgression.EarlyAgression.EarlyAgression.EarlyAgression.EarlyAgression.EarlyAgression.EarlyAgression.EarlyAgression.EarlyAgression.EarlyAgression.EarlyAgression.EarlyAgression.EarlyAgression.EarlyAgression.EarlyAgression.EarlyAgression.EarlyAgression.EarlyAgression.EarlyAgression.EarlyAgression.EarlyAgression.EarlyAgression.EarlyAgression.EarlyAgression.EarlyAgression.EarlyAgression.EarlyAgression.EarlyAgression.EarlyAgression.EarlyAgression.........
Edit: No GG?
Laughably insolent.
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I agree though. Carrier & high templar takes a whole lot of gas, and takes forever to tech. Ht and Speedlots not that bad, though if they tech switch to air, you're screwed. And dts won't work if there is 1, i repeat 1 scan. Dt harrass though is ok. get some void rays, hts, speedlots, but carriers cost too much gas. Or if u are ultra confident get mothership jk
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Isn't it reasonable for the toss to get a mothership and save energy for a key vortex before a huge amount of thors begins to bash at your front door?
By the time a terran masses a huge amount of thors, by huge amount of thors I'm thinking 5+, your mothership should have enough energy. It takes roughly 3 minutes making the mothership (less because of chronoboosts) and another 2 minutes to get enough energy for a vortex.
Any combination with void rays, colossus, carriers, or immortals has a 50/50 chance with mass thor/x with good micro (obviously). Again thor immobility plays a key role in catching a section of them with vortex. Depending on the vortex the toss should be able to snipe a reasonable section of the terran army before the terran shoves all his units into the toilet.
If you don't want to win up in a straight fight you can still abuse thor immobility with mass recall hit and run tactics.
Just a reminder: The mothership is not a fighting unit. It is a support/tank unit. Use it to tank damage/split forces not fight with. It has 350 shields 350 health and two armor. Thor volley is four shots +7 damage to armored 0/0/0, therefore mothership would reduce this to +5 when they're eating the mothership health, not shield. If the terran has a raven it should be easily shot down, if terran scans and goes for your units the mothership would have time to vortex a godlike angle of his forces. The terran would be requied to have 8 or so vikings to effectively snipe the mothership, denying minerals from his ground army
thors taking out that mothership faster than it can vortex( mothership is slow and has to get in range) will mean certain DEFEAT
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CARRIERS FTW
VOID RAYS FTW (make sure your voids rays don't clump up and engage in a good spot)
MOTHERSHIP FTW (vortex, thors are too slow to dodge it)
thors taking out that mothership faster than it can vortex( mothership is slow and has to get in range) will mean certain DEFEAT
Not really, thors does only 24 damage and they are immobile, its pretty easy to get a vortex through, especially if you have a army with you.
practically anything air except for pheonix
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On January 24 2011 11:42 bowserjratk wrote:
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thors taking out that mothership faster than it can vortex( mothership is slow and has to get in range) will mean certain DEFEAT
Vortex range is 7, thor air range is 10. I'm fairly confident that the mothership can survive long enough for one vortex.
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thors lack mobility so exploit that with warp prisms/pylon spread. Charge lots work well if you can surround, you want to attack from as many sides as possible. VR do decent damage to thors and don't take too much in return just don't clump them and use other units like charge lots to take hits. Carriers also work.
You can't just expect to beat every army/strategy with head on 1 angle of attack engagements and having the right mixture of units.
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On January 24 2011 02:02 Laughing wrote:
Isn't it reasonable for the toss to get a mothership and save energy for a key vortex before a huge amount of thors begins to bash at your front door?
By the time a terran masses a huge amount of thors, by huge amount of thors I'm thinking 5+, your mothership should have enough energy. It takes roughly 3 minutes making the mothership (less because of chronoboosts) and another 2 minutes to get enough energy for a vortex.
Any combination with void rays, colossus, carriers, or immortals has a 50/50 chance with mass thor/x with good micro (obviously). Again thor immobility plays a key role in catching a section of them with vortex. Depending on the vortex the toss should be able to snipe a reasonable section of the terran army before the terran shoves all his units into the toilet.
If you don't want to win up in a straight fight you can still abuse thor immobility with mass recall hit and run tactics.
Just a reminder: The mothership is not a fighting unit. It is a support/tank unit. Use it to tank damage/split forces not fight with. It has 350 shields 350 health and two armor. Thor volley is four shots +7 damage to armored 0/0/0, therefore mothership would reduce this to +5 when they're eating the mothership health, not shield. If the terran has a raven it should be easily shot down, if terran scans and goes for your units the mothership would have time to vortex a godlike angle of his forces. The terran would be requied to have 8 or so vikings to effectively snipe the mothership, denying minerals from his ground army.
the mothership is slow and the range you can cast vortex from is small thors do bonus damage to light not armored the terran player has no reason to "shove all his units into a vortex that only sucks in 2-3 thors" the zealots are also gonna get sucked in carriers will lose all their interceptors during the duration as well. and why does anyone think its gonna hurt a 200/200 terran to have 10 vikings? Watch the replay i posted his army could kill any army i made 5 times. and Saying thors are immobile is a joke. Thors immobile compared to zerglings yes but they aren't much slower then the fastest of protoss units. If you go blink stalkers your just gonna get rolfstomped into the ground and if your trying to pick things off with vr's you need to clump them which is exactly what terran wants.
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On January 24 2011 12:11 Laughing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 11:42 bowserjratk wrote:
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thors taking out that mothership faster than it can vortex( mothership is slow and has to get in range) will mean certain DEFEAT Vortex range is 7, thor air range is 10. I'm fairly confident that the mothership can survive long enough for one vortex.
assuming your information is correct the 7 range is from the center of the fat ass mothership, so it is effectively more like range 5 and wants the point of vortexing the very edge you have to have a more centralized vortex for it to even be worth it otherwise your preventing all your own melee units from doing damage, and why the hell is everyone ignoring the fact terran can easily get 10+ vikings if they ever even see a stargate.
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On January 24 2011 16:57 Scaryman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 12:11 Laughing wrote:On January 24 2011 11:42 bowserjratk wrote:
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thors taking out that mothership faster than it can vortex( mothership is slow and has to get in range) will mean certain DEFEAT Vortex range is 7, thor air range is 10. I'm fairly confident that the mothership can survive long enough for one vortex. assuming your information is correct the 7 range is from the center of the fat ass mothership, so it is effectively more like range 5 and wants the point of vortexing the very edge you have to have a more centralized vortex for it to even be worth it otherwise your preventing all your own melee units from doing damage, and why the hell is everyone ignoring the fact terran can easily get 10+ vikings if they ever even see a stargate.
I agree about the mothership. With the unit tester I've been able to get a vortex of at the very edge of the marine/thor ball, and the mothership usually dies right afterwards. That might just be worth it though, but you would have to put all your eggs in one basket at that point.
Of course terran will start pushing out those vikings the second he sees a stargate. But 1. that is less units he will have for his thor/marine ball and 2. Voidrays are quite good vs vikings (if he starts microing his vikings, you could always just target fire the thors)
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I can't believe you can just mass thors into masters league and then call magix box bullshit. So many people making look terrans like total idiots don't make me happy.
Edit: this is related to an older post in this thread.
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EPT
