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On January 16 2011 10:36 PikaXchU wrote:
High Templar are not longer able to feedback Thors. So what's the use of getting a High Templar against Thor now? To attempt to storm the crap out of them?
Carriers should be the safest build, but if they scout them I don't know.... Maybe colossus too..
yeah why not storm.
big thor balls are close together and are so slow that they take guaranteed full dmg. and if you play zeal/immortal heavy you should have quite some gas left for HTs.
also totally denies any marine or scv support, is great against banshees/air and great vs evrything.
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Pretty easy to deal with that... make colossus and micro them... Thors are too slow to even thouch them or do the strike cannon. Abuse the immobility of thors and/or tanks with colossus and blink stalker. BLink inside the base of terran kill some structure back off. Go kill his expands with another group etc. But yeah against thors only... make colossus and micro them and he won't be able to do anything.
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On January 16 2011 10:47 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 09:17 Orlando Mavado wrote:
I made a post about Mass Thor in TvP, alas the moderators didn't approve of a non-barracks centric strategy so it was closed. Danger: sharp learning curve ahead. Anyhow, I do rather feel for Protoss versus mass Thor. Zerg gets neural parasite, otherwise known as the "Thors? For me? Oh you shouldn't have!" spell, and the counterintuitive but hilariously effective tide of banelings, either of which are pretty straightforward to obtain by the time serious quantities of Thors are on the field. Protoss? Much less straightforward. Colossus outrange the hell out of Thors - it is possible that well-positioned and microed mass colossus would work - assuming they're attainable in time? EDIT: Forgot colossi can be hit with air attacks. Mind you, they're pretty feeble so A-move thors into colossi might not do so well...
I believe Thors only use ground attack vs collosus, even if they are within range of the air attack, but outside of the ground. 250mm cannon have a range of 7, and collosus (with upgrades) have a range of 9. So it is indeed very possible to micro collosus vs thors. But the punishment for have a collosus not perfectly within those 2 squares is instant death, as you can not run outside of the range of 250mm cannon when it first has started to engage, even if it takes a second for the stun to take effect.
I feel like this would be a much close matchup if 250mm didn't stun the collosus, and would stop when they're out of range.
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On January 16 2011 11:03 AlexCMoi wrote:
Pretty easy to deal with that... make colossus and micro them... Thors are too slow to even thouch them or do the strike cannon. Abuse the immobility of thors and/or tanks with colossus and blink stalker. BLink inside the base of terran kill some structure back off. Go kill his expands with another group etc. But yeah against thors only... make colossus and micro them and he won't be able to do anything.
This has no root in reality I'm afraid. No terran would make only thors without marine and possibly marauder support. Thors kills stalkers so quickly its not even funny, so you should avoid them at all cost(which I didn't in this replay..Could be why I lost?). You can blink into their main if you want to, but whats stopping them from just attacking you had on and killing you?
Also you seem quite confident that you are able to micro collosus vs thors, seeing as its range 7 vs range 9, and the punishment for getting in range of a thor for a micro second is instant death to 250mm cannons..
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Carriers would've been the best choice. Vikings are only cost effective against carriers, and the interceptors screw VERY VERY badly with mass thor ai. While it seems expensive to tech to both carriers and HT, realistically you could easily have done it. You had something like 20 sentries in your army. Imagine if you had 3-4 HT's instead and just threw down 5 good storms on top of the whole army. Storm doesn't do much to thor's, I would agree, but you would still have hit 3-4 of them with every storm.
Also, keep a closer eye on your minimap and the enemy base, both blue flame drops were spotted by the observer.
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250 MM cannons the future of TvP who woulda thought?
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Naniwa just played Goody in the TL open, and Goody tried to go mech
He just abused mechs immobility with blink stalkers and collossi, then caught him out of position, blinked in his base and killed everything.
Thors are great though, with cannons they 1 shot immortals/collossi and do well against everything else ground
Build void rays/carriers, they kill thors like nothing else in the game
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On January 16 2011 09:17 Orlando Mavado wrote:
Rank 2 Master League Terran here-
I made a post about Mass Thor in TvP, alas the moderators didn't approve of a non-barracks centric strategy so it was closed. Thors are viable and they counter all gateway and robotics units- even Voidrays.
However, Thors have one weakness in TvP: Mass Carriers with High Templar support.
I would love to see a sc2ranks link to your bnet profile.. the way you post makes me highly doubt the claims you make..
anyways for help, try to do a 3gate VR push if you see initial turtling (early bunker above ramp etc.) or if you feel like they're going mech, even if they go fast banshee your attack should hit at a timing to where you will win a base trade vs banshees even with cloak, just make sure to get a forge up fast, if you thought they were teching to mech and they happened to just be hiding rax's expand and grab a robo fast and rely on good FF's and micro to defend until you get out collosi (or just hold them inside their own base by FF'ing their ramp forcing them to either get medivacs or face their army being split in half and chewed apart)
hope this helps gl!
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On January 16 2011 11:15 veK1g wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 09:17 Orlando Mavado wrote:
Rank 2 Master League Terran here-
I made a post about Mass Thor in TvP, alas the moderators didn't approve of a non-barracks centric strategy so it was closed. Thors are viable and they counter all gateway and robotics units- even Voidrays.
However, Thors have one weakness in TvP: Mass Carriers with High Templar support. I would love to see a sc2ranks link to your bnet profile.. the way you post makes me highly doubt the claims you make.. anyways for help, try to do a 3gate VR push if you see initial turtling (early bunker above ramp etc.) or if you feel like they're going mech, even if they go fast banshee your attack should hit at a timing to where you will win a base trade vs banshees even with cloak, just make sure to get a forge up fast, if you thought they were teching to mech and they happened to just be hiding rax's expand and grab a robo fast and rely on good FF's and micro to defend until you get out collosi (or just hold them inside their own base by FF'ing their ramp forcing them to either get medivacs or face their army being split in half and chewed apart) hope this helps gl!
I'm not saying it wont work, but it requires me to change my build completely. I would rather want to know how I should adapt in the midgame if I see the terran sit in his base and mass thors.
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On January 16 2011 11:08 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 11:03 AlexCMoi wrote:
Pretty easy to deal with that... make colossus and micro them... Thors are too slow to even thouch them or do the strike cannon. Abuse the immobility of thors and/or tanks with colossus and blink stalker. BLink inside the base of terran kill some structure back off. Go kill his expands with another group etc. But yeah against thors only... make colossus and micro them and he won't be able to do anything.
This has no root in reality I'm afraid. No terran would make only thors without marine and possibly marauder support. Thors kills stalkers so quickly its not even funny, so you should avoid them at all cost(which I didn't in this replay..Could be why I lost?). You can blink into their main if you want to, but whats stopping them from just attacking you had on and killing you? Also you seem quite confident that you are able to micro collosus vs thors, seeing as its range 7 vs range 9, and the punishment for getting in range of a thor for a micro second is instant death to 250mm cannons..
In the post he talks about Thors without anything, just mass thors. if he make marauder and marine with it.. it dosnt change anything since thors are a units that is made in the late game usaly if you want to mass them and if so u can make templars with ur colossus since protoss gonna have many bases. YOu said thors kill stalkers very fast yeah but you dont engage the thors you just use them to get the thors off position.
And yeah im confident I can micro colossus vs thors.. pretty damn easy since you just attack and back with the colossus and with yourt 6-7 colossus terran can chase you more than 5 sec before he realise it's a waste to do so.
( 3500 terran )
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Isn't this like saying what counters mass carriers? You let them get to that point of course you are going to be at a disadvantage in a straight army fight w/ a normal army. If they actually do get to that point I would exploit the thors immobility and attempt to starve them or base trade.
If you are forced to engage then VRs + zealot support (plus colossi and/or HTs for the probable marine support) are your best bet. Immortals are not good vs thors w/ the cannon upgrade unless you severely outnumber them (highly unlikely).
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Mass Void Rays and engage them in a choke. I wonder how Magic Boxed VRs would handle Mass Thors as well.
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On January 16 2011 11:22 AlexCMoi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 11:08 Excludos wrote:On January 16 2011 11:03 AlexCMoi wrote:
Pretty easy to deal with that... make colossus and micro them... Thors are too slow to even thouch them or do the strike cannon. Abuse the immobility of thors and/or tanks with colossus and blink stalker. BLink inside the base of terran kill some structure back off. Go kill his expands with another group etc. But yeah against thors only... make colossus and micro them and he won't be able to do anything.
This has no root in reality I'm afraid. No terran would make only thors without marine and possibly marauder support. Thors kills stalkers so quickly its not even funny, so you should avoid them at all cost(which I didn't in this replay..Could be why I lost?). You can blink into their main if you want to, but whats stopping them from just attacking you had on and killing you? Also you seem quite confident that you are able to micro collosus vs thors, seeing as its range 7 vs range 9, and the punishment for getting in range of a thor for a micro second is instant death to 250mm cannons.. And yeah im confident I can micro colossus vs thors.. pretty damn easy since you just attack and back with the colossus and with yourt 6-7 colossus terran can chase you more than 5 sec before he realise it's a waste to do so. ( 3500 terran )
Whoever in master league would just try to chase you with their thors instead of microing them back and fourth..?
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Mass Void Rays and engage them in a choke. I wonder how Magic Boxed VRs would handle Mass Thors as well.
Some Unit Tester findings;
30 Thors vs. 60 Voidrays
Thors win with 20+ Thors remaining.
Not sure if Magic Box is possible with Void Rays considering they have such slow speed.
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On January 16 2011 11:34 Orlando Mavado wrote:Show nested quote +Mass Void Rays and engage them in a choke. I wonder how Magic Boxed VRs would handle Mass Thors as well. Some Unit Tester findings; 30 Thors vs. 60 Voidrays Thors win with 20+ Thors remaining. Not sure if Magic Box is possible with Void Rays considering they have such slow speed.
I'm assuming that the void rays got shot down by splash because they didn't have time to spread out. Also, did you engage in a choke?
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I'm assuming that the void rays got shot down by splash because they didn't have time to spread out. Also, did you engage in a choke?
Engaged on that platform thing, both armies attack-moving no micro. The Thors were actually at a disadvantage because I didn't have 20 SCVs with them, so no repairing.
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twilight council gateway army should do pretty well. lots of forge upgrades, blink + charge, abuse immobility of thors?
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On January 16 2011 11:34 Orlando Mavado wrote:Show nested quote +Mass Void Rays and engage them in a choke. I wonder how Magic Boxed VRs would handle Mass Thors as well. Some Unit Tester findings; 30 Thors vs. 60 Voidrays Thors win with 20+ Thors remaining. Not sure if Magic Box is possible with Void Rays considering they have such slow speed.
How is this a realistic scenario? Even 10 thors is stretching it. Plus guardian shield reduces thor AA damage a LOT.
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On January 16 2011 12:00 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2011 11:34 Orlando Mavado wrote:Mass Void Rays and engage them in a choke. I wonder how Magic Boxed VRs would handle Mass Thors as well. Some Unit Tester findings; 30 Thors vs. 60 Voidrays Thors win with 20+ Thors remaining. Not sure if Magic Box is possible with Void Rays considering they have such slow speed. How is this a realistic scenario? Even 10 thors is stretching it. Plus guardian shield reduces thor AA damage a LOT.
Because the point of the thread is looking at how to counter mass thors. Therefore 20-30 thors is exactly the point, and this is to test how well VRs do against them. I'm not sure Guardian Shield factors in well, because it's so easily destroyed with a little micro.
Without having tested this, are we so sure that massing a single unit is the best option flat out? Part of their strength is the idea of critical mass and how much damage they put out at range.
Also upgrades, does a certain number of armour upgrades that add another round of shots required to kill a key unit?
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On January 16 2011 11:34 Orlando Mavado wrote:Show nested quote +Mass Void Rays and engage them in a choke. I wonder how Magic Boxed VRs would handle Mass Thors as well. Some Unit Tester findings; 30 Thors vs. 60 Voidrays Thors win with 20+ Thors remaining. Not sure if Magic Box is possible with Void Rays considering they have such slow speed.
Sounds like you told them to attack the Thors. Don't.
In the unit tester, make 30 thors (180 food) and 35 void rays (105 food). Make sure VRs are allowed to 'settle' properly (spaced out). Select all the void rays and click beyond the thors. Do not under any circumstances a-move. Notice the VRs start firing and charging up even while moving. Hit 'h' when the void rays are centred over the thors. Void rays win easily. Same applies with 3/3 upgrades (no upgraded shields): about 10 VRs left over.
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EPT
