|
I apologize for double post.
On December 23 2010 04:54 Sucio wrote:
Sucio here. 2200 Point Diamond Toss.
A standard robo build can defeat any 4 gate unless of course they somehow have a proxy pylon in your base lol.
Concerning this MASS Immortal vs colossi thing...Yes it most deff can work and has worked for me if you time it correctly. A lot of toss players go 1 base colossi which I think is ridiculous..You end up with 2 colossi and a Tiny Tiny ground army. 3 to 4 immortals plus good macro/micro with your other gateway units will take this 1 base 2 colossi nonsense down. So yes it does work with good scouting and attack timings.
I have seen a ton of Toss players trying out void ray builds against Robo/Colossi type builds...Ummmm....I think I may have lost 1 game to a toss that has gone for the voids when I went for colossi tech. Once again if you go 1 base colossi which I DON'T recommend than a stargate build with some voids might actually take the game maybe. But I honestly don't think Toss is going to be switching to more stargate type builds than Robo builds which are just so safe/strong.
I think the problem with going Stargate vs Robo tech is that the colossi are going to crush the stargate players ground army. Just completely annihilate it even if they do loose all there colossi to voids. Hence, the robo player will have a huge ground advantage over the Stargate player. A good amount of stalkers can easily deal with voids which can't hide in the back of a toss army like Colossi can. That's just my opinion but hey you never know what can happen. This game is incredible and is ever changing every week.
Good Luck Dark Void!
Sucio
This confirms my doubts about the stargate builds against colossi. Your ground army is just no match after a while. You metion good attack timings, what are good times to attack? I'm guessing while their collosus numbers are the weakest, and you immortal numbers are far superior to them, but I'm not sure. :x.
Also, thank you for you good tidings 
|
recently i saw blink stalkers that simply outran the army with immortal.
Other then that i love immortal and phoenix play, but how much immortals you want always depends on the enemy, chrono boost helps at the beginning so more then 1 robo would be strange.
speed ray with 2 immortals in hit help vs colossi, drop them behind the enemy colossi and they will have to move closer to your army, or he will have to pull his stalkers back, either way nothing that is of desire for your opponent.
Immortal is one of the units that looses effectivness in masses.
|
Try Phoenix/Zealot into Voidray/Zealot
I stop after 6 phoenix. I use them to harass but try my best to keep them alive. Best time to push is after 4-6 void rays.
Use phoenix to lift up stalkers, let your massive amounts of zealots to take down any ground threat and use voids to clean everything else up.
Works excellently. its a 2-gate 2 stargate build thats still effective off of one base. But is even more devastating off of 2 base.
2200 diamond btw.
|
PHOENIX RAPE PvP
Phoenix and immortal... well good you tried the Phoenix, but you don't need and should not use Immortals with it.
If you're going to use Phoenix then dump your minerals into Zealots (and get Charge upgrade too). It's very gas heavy though so I usually FE when I do this (15 Nexus, 16 Forge, 16 Pylon, cannons asap with a probe scouting to see when zealots or whatnot arrive, or whether the opponent is expanding or inevitable planning a bust). Once he comes with Immortals, lift them up with your Phoenixes and let your cannons and zealots rape the Stalkers. You won't be able to have Charge in time though (well it's probably possible but you'll probably be very poor or lack cannons). So instead you can just make a sentry so that by the time he attacks you will have 3 forcefields or so and can trap his stalkers in with your canons/zealots. Then you can easily finish off the Immortals.
This is how I do PvP and I win almost every one . Well, on maps where I can FE safely of course (auto-win on LT lol)
REMEMBER: Phoenixes > Stalkers **
Phoenixes > Immortals
Phoenixes > Colossi
**the bigger the armies, the more the advantage the Phoenixes have, but Phoenixes fare well enough in the beginning since you'll be at home anyways, with your cannons
Hehe and for those of you that may have read my other posts, I know I talk about Phoenixes a lot, but they're sooo good.
This confirms my doubts about the stargate builds against colossi. Your ground army is just no match after a while. You metion good attack timings, what are good times to attack? I'm guessing while their collosus numbers are the weakest, and you immortal numbers are far superior to them, but I'm not sure. :x.
Also, thank you for you good tidings
Remember in order to get a good number of colossi ( I would say 2 at least) and to get Thermal Lance, AND to get Robo Bay... it's a lot more than just getting Immortals!
Like Phoenix timing window (before he has 2 Colossi and/or at lesat before Thermal finishes) the Colossi player will be about 6 Phoenixes worth behind. Yes that's a shit ton. So I would say similarly with Immortals, you can push with 4-5 or so Immortals? Idk the timing, but this should be close and either way a good number. But really you don't even need that many immortals versus 1-2 Colossi, unless if they have lots of Stalkers. Just make sure you have plenty of Zealots too to prevent zealots from raping your Immortals
But I recommend Phoenix vs Colossi not Immortal vs Colossi... Immortals can get stuck easy and aren't mobile like Phoenixes so they lack the ability to harass (without warp prism) and gain map control.
|
It seems that there is quite the conflicting opinion here. Some say that unless the toss is an idiotic 1 base collosus that stargate play is bad. Some say that stargate play is awesome. But the last couple of posts appears to agree on 1 point. Mixing the two is devastating. And as the idea smurf introduces is that in order to pull if off effectively enough you have to open phoenix for harass so you can keep them back while you get a second, making this build as he puts it "devastating"
So far this over all conclusion is looking rather solid. But there is only on thing, the transition from the phoenix is to void ray, but Suico has stated that stargate play makes your ground army to weak. I'm wondering if adding robo ground play to the stargate play makes it strong enough.... My opinion is split about it, but I'm going to eat, and then test it out :D
|
One collosus in your army equals to like 3-4 immortals, With decent micro (Aswell for the immortals) The collosus could rack up 40ish kills. If not more, About 3-4 immortals require more micro, Have less life (In most cases, Unless the enemy throws down 10 siege tanks at you, but its PvP)
While 3-4 immortals with decent micro could rack up like 30ish max.
Also one collosus is more terryfying as it can walk up and down cliffs, is more mobile. and has 9 range instead of 5.
Thats my say in this.
|
So far this over all conclusion is looking rather solid. But there is only on thing, the transition from the phoenix is to void ray, but Suico has stated that stargate play makes your ground army to weak. I'm wondering if adding robo ground play to the stargate play makes it strong enough.... My opinion is split about it, but I'm going to eat, and then test it out :D
I'm tellin ya, CHARGELOTS WITH PHOENIX RAPE!!!
Why? Well think of this. A zealot is stronger than a Stalker. However the stalker is ranged, which we know gives quite an advantage in a RTS. However with Charge, that's all changed. Stalkers cost so much anyways. This way, you can also dump all your gas into Phoenixes.
Also, if you're going Phoenixes, you need the gas to tech/upgrade etc., so it's convenient to keep pumping Zealots right from the beginning instead of making a Robo and then making Immortals.
About the void ray transition. I guess you could do that especially if you sniped or killed his first 1-2 Colossi, setting all those resources spent into tech to waste for a while til he gets more Colossi... but you don't need to switch to Void Rays. Phoenixes provide much greater map control and their mobility is just insane. Ok you can upgrade VR speed, but that's going to change in 1.2 so I'm just going to stick with my Phoenixes.
I hope you can trust me or give this thought some consideration. Have fun!
|
Immortal + Void Ray rapes any ground comp that Protoss can muster, especially if they went Robo. It's just not dying before you can get 2-3 Immos/Voids that can be challenging.
Even scouted (with Obs), Protoss will have a hard time stopping this army. You'll have a load of Zealots, and if he tries to go mass Stalker then he gets pillaged by the Immortals.
Blink rushes shut this build down.
|
Hmmm... Now everyone is loving on phoenix. Which I don't mind because I love phoenix! <3 My entire PvZ strategy is based around them. But if I'm going to test out this zealot phoenix I'm going to require a ration. Is it 2 stargate phoenix 1 warpgate on one expo? 2 gate 1 stargate? And does it just repeat as you expo? Or say once you have your natural do you go from 2 stargate 1 gateway into 3 stargate 3 gateway?
|
If you go for straight up 3gate star or 2gate stargate, you're going to get rolled by a 4gate.
|
@Dark Void
If you expand, I go 1 gate, cyber, 2nd gate (depending if you need more cannons or not, you can stay with one gate for starters) and then 1 stargate, and then add another stargate once I can support the gas at the expo. Keep adding gateways steadily as your bases saturate. I don't take all 4 gas immediately, once my Cyber starts I start 2 gas, and then I add 2 more gas within 1 minute of the expo finishing. About that.
Pump sentries (about 2-3 at least, in case they try an early bust. You'll need the forcefields to block zealots or trap stalkers for your zealots to beat on them) and then zealots.
Meanwhile you're pumping Phoenixes on your Stargate. Make your Twilight Council, and upgrade +1 Air Weapons asap, then Charge asap. Keep upgrading air throughout. Add a second Stargate, and you should also have about 4 Gateways, and soon 6 once your main and natural are almost fully saturated (like 20 on minerals).
I don't do 1 base Phoenix play, as you probably won't have the econ or safety to get Charge + Air Upgrades + 2 Stargates. I haven't tried it, but I stick with my FE build (15 nexus 16 forge 16 pylon, you can delay forge and pylon based on scouting, otherwise you need to cut a couple probes for the 16 forge. Sacrifice probes til the cannons are up if he goes for 2 gate pressure).
It sounds like a very gas heavy build but it is. However your cannons will buy you lots of time . Use all chronoboost on Nexi, and then start using some (or all) on Air Weapons and Charge. You can even get +1 ground weapons if you want, or shield so that it benefits air too. You'll generally need at least a couple chrono boosts for your Charge however, as it takes a very long time and you need to be sure you have that once he pushes or once you decide you can trade armies with him (timing window is about 8 minutes, before he has 2 Colossi with Range).
If you trade armies the game will heavily go into your favor. Try timing your Air/Ground/Charge/7 Phoenix to finish all at the same time so you can hit at 8 minutes.
You need to be careful of another timing window however, this time for the opponent. If he goes for an Immortal bust (2 or 2nd following closely) you will need to be sure your Phoenixes are closeby your expansion so you can lift at least one of them up. My build order isn't optimized as I just add Stargates/Gateways as I get the money, so usually when this bust comes I only have 1 Phoenix unless I chrono boosted the Stargate. But just lift one Immortal, use your sentries ff/guardian shield, and target the 2nd immortal. You can add a couple cannons if your scouting probe sees this coming.
Another timing (i've seen this once) is where I got busted by him attacking with 10-15 zealots. I didn't scout properly, but if he's going for this, put a couple more cannons down (into good positions, remember they're melee so you can tuck cannons behind buildings) and try to get a sentry out asap so you can FF at least once cannon to protect it from dying.
For your expansion you can put down a couple Gateways there instead of your main to help with the sim city.
|
Plexa, what are your thoughts on going stargate and skipping the robo in PvP?
|
The most practical thing your opponent can do is continue with their colossus build, cutting stalkers and adding more sentries/zealots. Even a ton of Immortals cannot handle a few sentries/zealots and colossus backup, even without the range upgrade. The rape that will ensue is still more exaggerated if the opponent engages you in a tight space.
|
PvP is such a random matchup. There`s no ome build that can be considered `safe.` This isn`t just my opinion either, InControl complained about the PvP matchup bitterly on the last SotG. With that in mind, find something that wins you more than 50% of your PvPs and stick with it. It really depends on your level of play too, low diamond has a lot of 4 gate, while mid is mostly colossi. so, if you`re running into more colossus play than anything else, that should be your priority to deal with. Then from there start looking at what you should do if something different shows up.
|
United States8476 Posts
On December 23 2010 05:04 TheGiz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 04:47 4kmonk wrote:
Collosi isare just too big an investment (500/200 for one collosiColossus) for your opponent to be able to make an appropriate army vs both immortals and void rays. One Immortal and one Void Ray is 500/250. One Colossus is 300/200. I guarantee you that I can beat you in unit count with Colossus support. Remember that with Colossus any Gateway support you may have will melt away in seconds, while my Zealots have longer to live. They'll eliminate your Immortals, which leaves my Stalkers alive to help my Sentries kill your Void Rays. The Colossus War in PvP is all about killing Force Fields and melting away Gateway units. Without their support and without Force Fields to block me, I can assure you that your other units will be quite exposed. P.S. I apologize for the double post. Didn't realize until after.
Have you ever played against this build? You shouldn't judge it before you play against it. I'll setup a scenario. Both player open up robo except one player throws down a stargate while the other throws down a robo bay and a 3rd gateway. So now both players have 4 production buildings but the robo bay toss has spent 200/50 more. Both players should primarily have a zealot based army right now with a few sentry mixed in. The collosi player will probably have a few stalkers while the immortal/voidray player won't have any or maybe 1. Once both players scout each other, the collosi player knows he needs to add in stalkers. The problem is that he needs to balance both his resources. He needs to spend his minerals choosing between zealot/stalker and he needs to spend his gas choosing between sentry/stalker/collosi. For every voidray, the other toss needs around 3 stalkers, so in order to counter the voidrays he needs to make less zealots. Also, because collosi and stalkers are so gas heavy, the collosi player won't have much gas to spend on sentires. On the other hand, zealot/immortal/voidray is actually every mineral heavy so the immortal/voidray player can find extra gas to make sentry. What I usually do with the robo/stargate build is expand after around 1-2 voidrays. Usually, if the collosi player pushes, the armies idealy should look something like this:
8 zealot/3 sentry/2 immortal/2 voidray(1950/800 army cost)
vs
8 zealot/7 stalker/2 sentry/1 collosi (2025/750 army cost)
Usually, however, the collosi player's army is weaker, because as the attacker, he doesn't have as many proxy pylons.
The funny thing here is that a smart collosi player has to target the voidrays with the stalkers. Because of this, there's actually 2 fights going on:
8 zealot/3 sentry/2 immortal vs 7 zealot/2 sentry/1 collosi
and
2 voidray vs 7 stalker
With forcefields, the stalkers will have a hard time targeting the voidrays and with good micro, you should never lose a voidray. On the ground, the 2 ground armies actually do similar damage to each other so both zealot lines should melt around the same time. However, once the zealot lines melt, the immortals just simply clean up the rest of the stalker/collosi army. Alternatively, if your opponent doesn't have enough forcefields, you can abuse the insane damage of the immortal vs stalker collosi and win the army that way. It's kinda hard to explain tbh, but I assure you it works in practice.
tldr: Immortal voidray is a very solid build in that it can handle almost anything. Also, it does have an advantage over collosi builds or any other builds that open robo first.
|
are there actually replays of all this theory crafting of how amazing phx are? i cant imagine all these fancy air/fe builds to hold vs the standard (90% of all pvp) ladder 4 gate
|
On December 23 2010 06:04 wherebugsgo wrote:
Plexa, what are your thoughts on going stargate and skipping the robo in PvP?
If I may give my opinion as well as a 2300+ who has been using stargate builds since beta...
To go stargate, you really have to know your build. With a 4gate or a 3gate robo there is so much more leeway that if you switch to a stargate build, you will find that it is not as forgiving in many instances as the others.
Since many many ladder PvP games end in the early stages of the game, the stargate build is not as solid as the others out there. Please consider that most PvP builds are single base colossus or 4gate. If you go Stargate, you WILL lose to a 4gate push and single base colossus, to blink stalker builds, and to DT rushes. You cannot harass effectively with Phoenixes because stalker counts being naturally high in PvP, and by the time you have a high void ray count, your opponent has either pushed and won the game with one of the aforementioned builds, or is ready to push on 2 bases with a more beefy version of those more powerful builds.
You may find success trying stargate in PvP, there's no doubt to that. Most likely, however, it will be because you are a better player than your opponent, not because the build is solid in PvP, and if that's the case, you will have most likely made it harder for yourself to beat an otherwise inferior opponent, and are not giving yourself the best chance to win in any given PvP game. Of the many builds possible in PvP, your best success will come against a 3gate robo build where they go stalker and immortal heavy, but then again, pure zealot sentry would beat that wouldn't it?
|
United States8476 Posts
Stargate builds are amazing vs robo builds. I think everyone can agree about that. However, stargate openings just aren't viable, because they lose to some of the most common builds: 4 gate, blink stalker, and fe. It's also 50/50 vs dts depending on how you play it. A way to remedy that is to go robo stargate, adding the stargate only after you're sure he's not going either 4 gate or blink stalker. You'll be able to beat 4 gates and blink stalker builds, but worse off vs stargate builds. That's a very good trade I'd say.
|
On December 23 2010 06:07 TrickyGilligan wrote:
PvP is such a random matchup. There`s no ome build that can be considered `safe.` This isn`t just my opinion either, InControl complained about the PvP matchup bitterly on the last SotG. With that in mind, find something that wins you more than 50% of your PvPs and stick with it. It really depends on your level of play too, low diamond has a lot of 4 gate, while mid is mostly colossi. so, if you`re running into more colossus play than anything else, that should be your priority to deal with. Then from there start looking at what you should do if something different shows up.
Well put, and I agree 100% with InControl's statement. It seems for every one things, it is destroyed by another.
That said, I have finished the last of the testing I'm doing for now.
This apparent "godly" pheonix zealot build, got destroyed in ever test I did. 2 gate robo annihilated it, no matter how much I played with the ratios. 4 gate crushed it, it just seems like no matter how many phoenix or zealots you get, and what you do with them, the zealots will die, there will still be stalkers, and your phoenix are left useless.
But I decided to test void ray immortal, zealot. And it pwned. It anyalated stalker collosi, it held it's own against 2 gate robo, and it held strong against collosi zealot stalker sentry, it even managed to hold off 4 gate. And this is of course all figured with forcefields on the immortals. Now keep in mind this was all done in the "Unit Test Solo" map, so I don't know if such a build can survive a 4 gate preasure, or anything like that. But just combat wise, it is awesome.
|
I can find some replays of mine, although I'll say that the strategy can be much more optimized than how I do it. Currently I'm a platinum player, but my skill (as a random) is probably more like 1500 Diamond, at least, and I have beaten Diamonds with it. Don't have access to SC2 yet, but I'll try to find some or upload some matches that I will play today. So basically, ofc the replays won't show this will work at 3k Diamond, but it should work for a good amount of the ladder.
One match is on Steppes where I go 3 Gate Stargate vs 3 Gate Robo, and I'll try to find one where I FE into Phoenixes... Although keep in mind that one reason why Phoenixes can be so effective is more simply because they're allowed by gaining the advantage of an expansion, which in turn is quite easy to do on a map like LT, especially if you're random. And another reason is that, unlike Colossi, which would require you to tech on top of already expanding, you can pump Phoenixes easily.
I'll edit this post later...
Also to note, it's definitely obviously possible like a previous poster said, that the player going Stargate may simply be better or have played much better than the opponent.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
