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United States8476 Posts
On December 23 2010 06:26 Dark Void wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 06:07 TrickyGilligan wrote:
PvP is such a random matchup. There`s no ome build that can be considered `safe.` This isn`t just my opinion either, InControl complained about the PvP matchup bitterly on the last SotG. With that in mind, find something that wins you more than 50% of your PvPs and stick with it. It really depends on your level of play too, low diamond has a lot of 4 gate, while mid is mostly colossi. so, if you`re running into more colossus play than anything else, that should be your priority to deal with. Then from there start looking at what you should do if something different shows up. Well put, and I agree 100% with InControl's statement. It seems for every one things, it is destroyed by another. That said, I have finished the last of the testing I'm doing for now. This apparent "godly" pheonix zealot build, got destroyed in ever test I did. 2 gate robo annihilated it, no matter how much I played with the ratios. 4 gate crushed it, it just seems like no matter how many phoenix or zealots you get, and what you do with them, the zealots will die, there will still be stalkers, and your phoenix are left useless. But I decided to test void ray immortal, zealot. And it pwned. It anyalated stalker collosi, it held it's own against 2 gate robo, and it held strong against collosi zealot stalker sentry, it even managed to hold off 4 gate. And this is of course all figured with forcefields on the immortals. Now keep in mind this was all done in the "Unit Test Solo" map, so I don't know if such a build can survive a 4 gate preasure, or anything like that. But just combat wise, it is awesome.
2 gate/robo/stargate is a solid build. Check out some of kiwikaki's replays from mlg for a very solid build. I, myself, do a slight variation of that build.
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Immortals are great against stalkers, sentries, and collossus, but zealots are pretty good against immortals. They don't use the hardened shield ability against them, and they aren't armored, and they are pretty cheap. If they have speed, then mass immortal with 1 gate is worthless.
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the raw stats don't lie. an immortal does the same damage vs light as 2 stalkers, a hell of a lot more damage against armored, and is a hell of a lot more durable. (also costs the same as 2)
It cannot hit air, and it is less mobile, far less massable (requires robo bay) and has 1 less range. But if all you're going to be fighting is ground targets it would be far better to have only immortals.
Immortal sentry zealot is a solid combo but loses to colossus/sentry. Thus you'll have to add in air. It'll also help if you can pick your engagement to be in the open so your army has more room to maneuver. You can also do immortal drops against colossus/sentry.
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Replays:
The titles should be enough description, if not the description on GameReplay should be enough (overall summary/flow of game)
This one is 1 base Stargate play, but this opponent was only a 1200 Platinum. However since the matchmaking system paired me up with him, and neither of us were in a losing streak, it seems that both our MMR's are actually in the Diamond range (as I'm sure mine is).
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-175799.jpg) ]
This second one I feel is a lot better. This is against a 2000 Diamond. Although I expand, he expands shortly too, and actually has more than double my income for quite a while (my main is mined out, and I'm trying to get a third so I have 2 mining bases).
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-175797.jpg) ]
As you can see my multitasking is quite horrible although my apm is 100+, but you could say the same with his. I engage improperly, forcefield my own zealots, leave Phoenixes idle during battle in order to macro up... I have blink later but I forget I even had it until towards the end.
I think this is probably the best replay I can show without me being on a higher footing (sucessful FFE), please don't just critique the play, but actually analyze Stargate vs Robo play.
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On December 23 2010 06:00 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
@ (15 nexus 16 forge 16 pylon, you can delay forge and pylon based on scouting, otherwise you need to cut a couple probes for the 16 forge. Sacrifice probes til the cannons are up if he goes for 2 gate pressure).
I'm pretty sure you can't do this. whenever i see fast nexus I 4gate in response and it's a bit of a joke. maybe if blizzard releases a map with a small ramp on the nat...
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how did you lose with immortal phoenix combo?
almost every pvp game, iv won vs collosi with immortal phoenix+ chargelots sentries
i think tho... what raped your immortals was the zealots, because their really not cost effective against zealots. get a matched amount of zealots, and lift zealots with your phoenixes.
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I'm pretty sure you can't do this. whenever i see fast nexus I 4gate in response and it's a bit of a joke. maybe if blizzard releases a map with a small ramp on the nat...
Yeah looking at it, it looks impossible. I'm guessing versus a 4 gate obviously this won't work. But then again, I think if you really spam those cannons and a couple of FF at least, it's doable. Pulling probes too may be. Hm may be I should test? Well of course I'm talking about LT at least, since that 's probably the easiest to cannon up and defend on. I wouldn't do that build on other maps xD
Edit: Shakuras would seem ok too, but the cannons may have to be moved forward so they center on the natural's ramp, which would leave the actual expo open to air harassment. But then again if you're going Phoenix then with a couple cannons I don't think it should be a problem...
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Well, it's not doable, even if the opponent is going 2-3 gates collossi. The immortals are slow, take place and are countered as well and outranged by collossi. If he went for 2 gates robo and he scouts your immortals-based build, he knows he will only have to pump out zealots, wich is what every protoss wanna do when they are going fast collossi. You DO want a protoss to spend gas on gateways units, but with your immortals you give him an excellent reason not to. Not only will he have his first collossi out faster, but he will absolutely counter everything you've got.
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Well said patou...
although, thinking of what would happen if you transition into mass immortal, like into 2 robo's if you see he's going Colossi with at least half his gateway units as Stalkers. What you think?
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Sucio Here!
Phoenix builds in PVP are not that effective. What did I read...Phoenix + Zealots and Phoenix + Immortals. Sorry guys. This build just cannot beat a robo build. Phoenix are paper airplanes and can get taken out so quick to stalkers. Heavy zealots will MELT to Colossi.
If I can beat battles where Terran makes a TON of Vikings to take out my Colossi which have more range, do more damage and are stronger than Phoenix, than the Phoenix build vs Robo Tech isn't a great choice.
Seems like everyone is going back and forth on this topic.
I'm going to say straight up that going 2/3 gate robo is the safest opening PvP. You can defend against any 4-Gate/Rush and you can get an OBS out early for vision. If you want to switch techs depending on what you see your opponent doing that's completely fine. I'm just saying that its a the safest bet.
I do love how everyone is trying out different builds against toss and I'm sure some of this Phoenix play has worked in a game or two but 4-Gating and Phoenix builds didn't get me into Diamond. It was the Robo tech. That's what I'm basing my opinion on. I've probably played over 400 games using this tech against all match ups and I feel completely safe/in control.
I wish you all luck in your Toss endeavors/experimentation! Keep it up and keep these blogs alive!
For Aiur.
Sucio
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Mass immortals are terrible. It gets owned by: sentry collo, chargelots, or any phoenix/void ray play. However, i do like getting 3 or 4 immortals early on because they're very good with low collosus numbers.
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It strikes me that Zealot/Immortal/Warp Prism would circumvent the the problems of Force Field and Colossus range when squaring off against Zealot/Sentry/Colossus -- just drop the Immortals in range and snipe the Colossuses. Maybe fly back out if they get surrounded by Zealots.
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This is a nice build in theory but too easily scouted in my opinion. It's also committing to the build before you really know what the opponent is going. However, I could see the potential for immortal drops using this build which might be interesting. It'd have to be tested out more to know it's real potential but it's worth a shot.
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Phoenix builds in PVP are not that effective. What did I read...Phoenix + Zealots and Phoenix + Immortals. Sorry guys. This build just cannot beat a robo build. Phoenix are paper airplanes and can get taken out so quick to stalkers. Heavy zealots will MELT to Colossi.
Can you check out my replay vs AzzMighty above on this page?
You go in with the Phoenixes first, then your Zealots. That way at least some of the Colossi die and the zealots start hammering on the Stalkers.
Also, Phoenixes are not paper airplanes to Stalkers. Phoenixes vs Stalkers... they are only less cost efficient until there are so many Stalkers not all of them can attack at once. Let's see 20 Stalkers or so. Then by 50 the Phoenixes have a huge advantage since they can stack like all air units. But anyways I'm not talking about mass Phoenix vs Stalker that's not the point xD.
Robo builds may be much safer and standard, but please don't say a Stargate build can't beat a Robo build. If you see my replay it definitely did (unless you can point out something terribly wrong with the opponent or something where I simply outplayed him).
Also remember Phoenixes have the upgrade advantage against Stalkers. Phoenixes can upgrade their attack once, giving them +2 since they attack twice. Stalkers on the other hand only get +1 if they upgrade damage. If they want to upgrade armor to "nullify" the huge +2 bonus the Phoenix get, they will have to upgrade either Shield or Armor or both. Both of which will only apply to half a Stalker's Health (HP and Shield).
So conclusion is Stalkers don't counter nor soft counter Phoenixes. In larger numbers (10+) with upgrades they are equal at worst, and begin to rape Stalkers soon after.
Math Notes: Assuming 1 gas = 1 mineral at minimum, 1 gas = 2 mineral at maximum.
Keep in mind that a Phoenix has 20 health more total (120 hp 60 shield) and attacks faster than a Stalker. And that Phoenixes are Light, doing 5*2 damage to Stalkers while Stalkers do only 10.
You can say that the Phoenix needing to pick up Stalkers, rendering some useless, will make them weak enough. But if you have like about 17 Phoenix, you only need about 1 lifting up at a time to let all the other Phoenix 1 shot about 1 Stalker.
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In my experience immortal+VRs worked pretty good before the VR damage nerf - especially if combined with halluzination. But after the patch it didn't work anymore. Immortals however can still be a nice addition if you already have 5+ colossi to melt the zealots of a gateway+pure colossi mix quickly. Also I lost once vs immortal+warp prism+ramp forcefielding on close air. But i don't think mass immortals instead of colossi is a good option.
Plus I think if the speed upgrade for VRs will be removed in the next patch, VRs vs colossi will be a less viable option since they need to be able to stay charged - otherwhise your opponent can simply retreat after killing all the ground stuff at attack again when VRs aren't charged anymore. I don't think the bonus vs massive will help the PvP matchup.
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you need warp prisms for immortals to compensate for the 5 range
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On December 23 2010 05:39 yarkO wrote:
Immortal + Void Ray rapes any ground comp that Protoss can muster, especially if they went Robo. It's just not dying before you can get 2-3 Immos/Voids that can be challenging.
Even scouted (with Obs), Protoss will have a hard time stopping this army. You'll have a load of Zealots, and if he tries to go mass Stalker then he gets pillaged by the Immortals.
Blink rushes shut this build down.
Yeah, immortal voidray zealot is a great PvP composition. I find that Kiwikaki goes about a pretty safe opening heading towards this composition.
I've also accidentally opened 1 gate 2 robo immortal/zealot, and it destroys 4 gate variations assuming you don't die before you get a couple immortals out.
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at higher food count nothing competes with colossi in pvp. Its lame but chargelots rape everything toss except colossi. If you don't get colossi the zealots will kill you, and if you try and ff wall the colossi will just punish you for it.
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United States8476 Posts
On December 26 2010 21:53 Scaryman wrote:
at higher food count nothing competes with colossi in pvp. Its lame but chargelots rape everything toss except colossi. If you don't get colossi the zealots will kill you, and if you try and ff wall the colossi will just punish you for it.
In equal supply, immortal/void ray/zealot actually still beats gateway/colossi at higher food counts, all the way up to 200. However, it's a bit unfair, because immortal/voidray/zealot costs more than gateway/collosi. I would revise your statement, "at higher food counts nothing competes with void rays in pvp". It's just getting maxed voidrays that's the problem.
Also, blink rushes don't shut this build down if you scout correctly. If you somehow see 4+ stalkers, you can respond by getting a quick immortal out and then you can transition to a collosi build instead of a immortal/void ray build.
Three things that do shut this build down are:
warp prism 4 gate
well played stargate builds
denied scouting, because the immortal voidray build relies heavily on scouting your opponent, more so than other builds.
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at higher food count nothing competes with colossi in pvp. Its lame but chargelots rape everything toss except colossi. If you don't get colossi the zealots will kill you, and if you try and ff wall the colossi will just punish you for it.
It seems you're forgetting that Colossi can't shoot up...
Chargelots rape Colossi, if there isn't enough zealots or other ground army for the Colossi user himself.
Again, not true. You can get Zealots yourself to stop the Zealots from killing you. You don't need Colossi. If what you said were true, everyone would mass Zealots.
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EPT
