EPTAny feedback is appreciated
Mass Immortal in PvP?
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Dark Void
United States39 Posts
Any feedback is appreciated | ||
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sti
United Kingdom43 Posts
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Faze.
Canada285 Posts
That's my guess I dont even play protoss, take it for what it's worth, but I dont think immortals are a good unit to mass in most situation, they are good as some sort of offensive support, but they're quite expansive and slow to make. Not to mention they're pretty slow and cant hit air. | ||
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RyanRushia
United States2748 Posts
against stuff like blink stalker sure i'd recommend it, but i think gateway + colossus can still wreck it. albeit not as often used, voidray could be strong as well against it, as you only have one gateway of support, cant get out enough AA to handle multiple voidray + gateway support | ||
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Thoramas
Singapore152 Posts
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Dark Void
United States39 Posts
On December 23 2010 04:18 sti wrote: The problem is while you might beat collouses if they just go 4gate push you will end up fighting 3 immortals vs a huge army. And people will push you if they see 2 robo. Hmmm... I tested it out vs a 2 gate opening. I actually didn't do 4 gate :x but the way you put it, it doesn't sound like my force fields could hold them off long enough to get enough immortals. Maybe I could come up with a way to alter it if I see something besides a collosus opening? Like if I see a 4 gate coming just don't drop the second robo and get another gate instead? O wow, so many posts while I post lol. Uh, I'm not talking using this against EVERY opening. I mean, no build holds off everything right? I'm saying open up planning to mass immortal, but if your scouting informs you of something that it can't hold off, then adapt it like any build to this new info. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
Simple fact is, voidrays handily kill every unit a Protoss can make, and a 2 gate/stargate build can often do serious damage, or outright kill, robo builds. The crux I think is that stalkers are not very cost-effective against voidrays, so if a player goes 2 gate robo against 2 gate stargate and the stargate player has half a brain, the robo player won't survive because his antiair will get steamed before the voidrays are killed. All it takes is one ray, and it will be able to clean up anything if there are no stalkers left. | ||
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Dark Void
United States39 Posts
On December 23 2010 04:27 wherebugsgo wrote: I think robo builds will say bye-bye as stargate builds become popular. Soon I think forge+stargate will be common (since you can use the phoenix or a voidray to scout and keep cannons at home for DT detection/defense) Simple fact is, voidrays handily kill every unit a Protoss can make, and a 2 gate/stargate build can often do serious damage, or outright kill, robo builds. The crux I think is that stalkers are not very cost-effective against voidrays, so if a player goes 2 gate robo against 2 gate stargate and the stargate player has half a brain, the robo player won't survive because his antiair will get steamed before the voidrays are killed. All it takes is one ray, and it will be able to clean up anything if there are no stalkers left. Are you suggesting perhaps instead of a mass immortal opening to lighten up the collosus wars, a stargate opening? Sounds interesting. I just decided to not open void rays in PvP until that bonus against massive units is applied. I would have to test it, but the common stalker collosus opening just seems like enough anit-air to take out the void rays. | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
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Brandus
148 Posts
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Chronopolis
Canada1484 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
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kemsley
United Arab Emirates137 Posts
Obviously it can be countered if seen, but if you proxy it and get your timing right (i.e hit as soon as possible before they've massed units) then you can win quickly and easily with it. If you lose one battle, because you can't retreat fast enough you lose your whole investment and the game, if they find your proxy you lose the game. I think as a one off all in, it is fun and can work but as a good opener, against andy of the races it's pretty turd. But really, really fun when you win :-) | ||
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Wrongspeedy
United States1655 Posts
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khazgore
Norway104 Posts
however it works very well against Blink stalkers and 4 gates that are stalker heavy. note you have to get a couple of stalkers aswell, as alot of opponent immediately throws up a Stargate when they see mass immortals. if a decent opponent scout 2 robos your dead so start with the robos when your walled off. | ||
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Sucio
United States14 Posts
A standard robo build can defeat any 4 gate unless of course they somehow have a proxy pylon in your base lol. Concerning this MASS Immortal vs colossi thing...Yes it most deff can work and has worked for me if you time it correctly. A lot of toss players go 1 base colossi which I think is ridiculous..You end up with 2 colossi and a Tiny Tiny ground army. 3 to 4 immortals plus good macro/micro with your other gateway units will take this 1 base 2 colossi nonsense down. So yes it does work with good scouting and attack timings. I have seen a ton of Toss players trying out void ray builds against Robo/Colossi type builds...Ummmm....I think I may have lost 1 game to a toss that has gone for the voids when I went for colossi tech. Once again if you go 1 base colossi which I DON'T recommend than a stargate build with some voids might actually take the game maybe. But I honestly don't think Toss is going to be switching to more stargate type builds than Robo builds which are just so safe/strong. I think the problem with going Stargate vs Robo tech is that the colossi are going to crush the stargate players ground army. Just completely annihilate it even if they do loose all there colossi to voids. Hence, the robo player will have a huge ground advantage over the Stargate player. A good amount of stalkers can easily deal with voids which can't hide in the back of a toss army like Colossi can. That's just my opinion but hey you never know what can happen. This game is incredible and is ever changing every week. Good Luck Dark Void! Sucio | ||
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TheGiz
Canada708 Posts
Many times have I won against this composition. People underestimate the huge advantage that Force Field brings to battles, and they also tend to forget that Colossi break Force Fields, taking them out of the equation in big battles. Immortals are great in a concave, but that concave will never form if they're all cut up by Force Fields. In the mad scramble, even slow DPS from Stalkers/Sentries/Colossus will be enough to take masses of them down. Sure, you might lose all your Stalkers, but they will be replaced by Zealots and Sentries and you're basically fucked. Combining this with Void Rays might be more viable, as has been done before. This is costlier than anything your opponent will produce however, and he'll simply beat you in unit count and thus DPS. | ||
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TheGiz
Canada708 Posts
On December 23 2010 04:47 4kmonk wrote: Collosi One Immortal and one Void Ray is 500/250. One Colossus is 300/200. I guarantee you that I can beat you in unit count with Colossus support. Remember that with Colossus any Gateway support you may have will melt away in seconds, while my Zealots have longer to live. They'll eliminate your Immortals, which leaves my Stalkers alive to help my Sentries kill your Void Rays. The Colossus War in PvP is all about killing Force Fields and melting away Gateway units. Without their support and without Force Fields to block me, I can assure you that your other units will be quite exposed. P.S. I apologize for the double post. Didn't realize until after. | ||
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Dark Void
United States39 Posts
V might deal with that issue, but I'd have to test to see if you spread yourself to thin. On December 23 2010 04:49 Wrongspeedy wrote: Opening 1-1(stargate)-1(robo) against someone thats not being aggressive off 1 base, then yourself expanding, leaves you in a good position to tech switch from there. You have immortals and air units (immortals vs stalks and colossus, air vs sentry zealot), you can also just add a bunch of gates at any point you think you need them, a lot of times I do this though I actually wait to get warpgates (sometimes I act like I'm getting it if I don't want to be scouted, then cancel it when I need the gas) because I only start with 1 gateway and I need the gas else where. If you get 2 base vs 2 base its a great position to be in, you can easily get colossus, or easily counter them. Its a strange build (surprising to see an immortal and voidray 1 base pvp), but thats a good thing because sometimes doing something unexpected is all you need to do to win. On December 23 2010 04:49 kemsley wrote: I tried going 2 robo and rushing and unsurprisingly I got not very good results vs Protoss.......but beat lots of Terrans, even ones that went all marines. Obviously it can be countered if seen, but if you proxy it and get your timing right (i.e hit as soon as possible before they've massed units) then you can win quickly and easily with it. If you lose one battle, because you can't retreat fast enough you lose your whole investment and the game, if they find your proxy you lose the game. I think as a one off all in, it is fun and can work but as a good opener, against andy of the races it's pretty turd. But really, really fun when you win :-) I found the tarren part of that post interesting. Never thought about using such a build against tarren. hmmmm.... O, BTW I tested the 1 stargate, 2 warp gate opening against both collosus stalker, and blink stalker. It barely held off the collosus one, leaving usually (this is assuming you both have a second expo) 4-5 void rays vs. 4 collosus. Of course, the void rays can clean up. But I'm concerned about that letting the collosus numbers get up to high for your zealots to counter later in the game, since they out speed voidrays and can just retreat once all the stalkers are dead. And the blink stalkers, it did really well against surprisingly. Assuming they can't blink up onto high ground for lack of vision, with scoot and shoot, and blink micro, in the end, the stargater came out on top. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
EDIT: indeed the reason you go immortal/phoenix and not pure immortal is that the phoenix give you greater flexibility in terms of harass, greater ability to counter colossus, gives you the ability to expand but MOST importantly forces your opponent to build stalkers - which your immortal/zealot/(sentry) heavy army counters effectively. | ||
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Dark Void
United States39 Posts
On December 23 2010 04:54 Sucio wrote: Sucio here. 2200 Point Diamond Toss. A standard robo build can defeat any 4 gate unless of course they somehow have a proxy pylon in your base lol. Concerning this MASS Immortal vs colossi thing...Yes it most deff can work and has worked for me if you time it correctly. A lot of toss players go 1 base colossi which I think is ridiculous..You end up with 2 colossi and a Tiny Tiny ground army. 3 to 4 immortals plus good macro/micro with your other gateway units will take this 1 base 2 colossi nonsense down. So yes it does work with good scouting and attack timings. I have seen a ton of Toss players trying out void ray builds against Robo/Colossi type builds...Ummmm....I think I may have lost 1 game to a toss that has gone for the voids when I went for colossi tech. Once again if you go 1 base colossi which I DON'T recommend than a stargate build with some voids might actually take the game maybe. But I honestly don't think Toss is going to be switching to more stargate type builds than Robo builds which are just so safe/strong. I think the problem with going Stargate vs Robo tech is that the colossi are going to crush the stargate players ground army. Just completely annihilate it even if they do loose all there colossi to voids. Hence, the robo player will have a huge ground advantage over the Stargate player. A good amount of stalkers can easily deal with voids which can't hide in the back of a toss army like Colossi can. That's just my opinion but hey you never know what can happen. This game is incredible and is ever changing every week. Good Luck Dark Void! Sucio This confirms my doubts about the stargate builds against colossi. Your ground army is just no match after a while. You metion good attack timings, what are good times to attack? I'm guessing while their collosus numbers are the weakest, and you immortal numbers are far superior to them, but I'm not sure. :x. Also, thank you for you good tidings | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
Other then that i love immortal and phoenix play, but how much immortals you want always depends on the enemy, chrono boost helps at the beginning so more then 1 robo would be strange. speed ray with 2 immortals in hit help vs colossi, drop them behind the enemy colossi and they will have to move closer to your army, or he will have to pull his stalkers back, either way nothing that is of desire for your opponent. Immortal is one of the units that looses effectivness in masses. | ||
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AGIANTSMURF
United States1232 Posts
I stop after 6 phoenix. I use them to harass but try my best to keep them alive. Best time to push is after 4-6 void rays. Use phoenix to lift up stalkers, let your massive amounts of zealots to take down any ground threat and use voids to clean everything else up. Works excellently. its a 2-gate 2 stargate build thats still effective off of one base. But is even more devastating off of 2 base. 2200 diamond btw. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10316 Posts
Phoenix and immortal... well good you tried the Phoenix, but you don't need and should not use Immortals with it. If you're going to use Phoenix then dump your minerals into Zealots (and get Charge upgrade too). It's very gas heavy though so I usually FE when I do this (15 Nexus, 16 Forge, 16 Pylon, cannons asap with a probe scouting to see when zealots or whatnot arrive, or whether the opponent is expanding or inevitable planning a bust). Once he comes with Immortals, lift them up with your Phoenixes and let your cannons and zealots rape the Stalkers. You won't be able to have Charge in time though (well it's probably possible but you'll probably be very poor or lack cannons). So instead you can just make a sentry so that by the time he attacks you will have 3 forcefields or so and can trap his stalkers in with your canons/zealots. Then you can easily finish off the Immortals. This is how I do PvP and I win almost every one . Well, on maps where I can FE safely of course (auto-win on LT lol)REMEMBER: Phoenixes > Stalkers ** Phoenixes > Immortals Phoenixes > Colossi **the bigger the armies, the more the advantage the Phoenixes have, but Phoenixes fare well enough in the beginning since you'll be at home anyways, with your cannons Hehe and for those of you that may have read my other posts, I know I talk about Phoenixes a lot, but they're sooo good. This confirms my doubts about the stargate builds against colossi. Your ground army is just no match after a while. You metion good attack timings, what are good times to attack? I'm guessing while their collosus numbers are the weakest, and you immortal numbers are far superior to them, but I'm not sure. :x. Also, thank you for you good tidings Remember in order to get a good number of colossi ( I would say 2 at least) and to get Thermal Lance, AND to get Robo Bay... it's a lot more than just getting Immortals! Like Phoenix timing window (before he has 2 Colossi and/or at lesat before Thermal finishes) the Colossi player will be about 6 Phoenixes worth behind. Yes that's a shit ton. So I would say similarly with Immortals, you can push with 4-5 or so Immortals? Idk the timing, but this should be close and either way a good number. But really you don't even need that many immortals versus 1-2 Colossi, unless if they have lots of Stalkers. Just make sure you have plenty of Zealots too to prevent zealots from raping your Immortals But I recommend Phoenix vs Colossi not Immortal vs Colossi... Immortals can get stuck easy and aren't mobile like Phoenixes so they lack the ability to harass (without warp prism) and gain map control. | ||
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Dark Void
United States39 Posts
So far this over all conclusion is looking rather solid. But there is only on thing, the transition from the phoenix is to void ray, but Suico has stated that stargate play makes your ground army to weak. I'm wondering if adding robo ground play to the stargate play makes it strong enough.... My opinion is split about it, but I'm going to eat, and then test it out :D | ||
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BuuGhost
Netherlands340 Posts
While 3-4 immortals with decent micro could rack up like 30ish max. Also one collosus is more terryfying as it can walk up and down cliffs, is more mobile. and has 9 range instead of 5. Thats my say in this. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10316 Posts
So far this over all conclusion is looking rather solid. But there is only on thing, the transition from the phoenix is to void ray, but Suico has stated that stargate play makes your ground army to weak. I'm wondering if adding robo ground play to the stargate play makes it strong enough.... My opinion is split about it, but I'm going to eat, and then test it out :D I'm tellin ya, CHARGELOTS WITH PHOENIX RAPE!!! Why? Well think of this. A zealot is stronger than a Stalker. However the stalker is ranged, which we know gives quite an advantage in a RTS. However with Charge, that's all changed. Stalkers cost so much anyways. This way, you can also dump all your gas into Phoenixes. Also, if you're going Phoenixes, you need the gas to tech/upgrade etc., so it's convenient to keep pumping Zealots right from the beginning instead of making a Robo and then making Immortals. About the void ray transition. I guess you could do that especially if you sniped or killed his first 1-2 Colossi, setting all those resources spent into tech to waste for a while til he gets more Colossi... but you don't need to switch to Void Rays. Phoenixes provide much greater map control and their mobility is just insane. Ok you can upgrade VR speed, but that's going to change in 1.2 so I'm just going to stick with my Phoenixes. I hope you can trust me or give this thought some consideration. Have fun! | ||
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yarkO
Canada810 Posts
Even scouted (with Obs), Protoss will have a hard time stopping this army. You'll have a load of Zealots, and if he tries to go mass Stalker then he gets pillaged by the Immortals. Blink rushes shut this build down. | ||
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Dark Void
United States39 Posts
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Abstinence
United States328 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10316 Posts
If you expand, I go 1 gate, cyber, 2nd gate (depending if you need more cannons or not, you can stay with one gate for starters) and then 1 stargate, and then add another stargate once I can support the gas at the expo. Keep adding gateways steadily as your bases saturate. I don't take all 4 gas immediately, once my Cyber starts I start 2 gas, and then I add 2 more gas within 1 minute of the expo finishing. About that. Pump sentries (about 2-3 at least, in case they try an early bust. You'll need the forcefields to block zealots or trap stalkers for your zealots to beat on them) and then zealots. Meanwhile you're pumping Phoenixes on your Stargate. Make your Twilight Council, and upgrade +1 Air Weapons asap, then Charge asap. Keep upgrading air throughout. Add a second Stargate, and you should also have about 4 Gateways, and soon 6 once your main and natural are almost fully saturated (like 20 on minerals). I don't do 1 base Phoenix play, as you probably won't have the econ or safety to get Charge + Air Upgrades + 2 Stargates. I haven't tried it, but I stick with my FE build (15 nexus 16 forge 16 pylon, you can delay forge and pylon based on scouting, otherwise you need to cut a couple probes for the 16 forge. Sacrifice probes til the cannons are up if he goes for 2 gate pressure). It sounds like a very gas heavy build but it is. However your cannons will buy you lots of time . Use all chronoboost on Nexi, and then start using some (or all) on Air Weapons and Charge. You can even get +1 ground weapons if you want, or shield so that it benefits air too. You'll generally need at least a couple chrono boosts for your Charge however, as it takes a very long time and you need to be sure you have that once he pushes or once you decide you can trade armies with him (timing window is about 8 minutes, before he has 2 Colossi with Range). If you trade armies the game will heavily go into your favor. Try timing your Air/Ground/Charge/7 Phoenix to finish all at the same time so you can hit at 8 minutes. You need to be careful of another timing window however, this time for the opponent. If he goes for an Immortal bust (2 or 2nd following closely) you will need to be sure your Phoenixes are closeby your expansion so you can lift at least one of them up. My build order isn't optimized as I just add Stargates/Gateways as I get the money, so usually when this bust comes I only have 1 Phoenix unless I chrono boosted the Stargate. But just lift one Immortal, use your sentries ff/guardian shield, and target the 2nd immortal. You can add a couple cannons if your scouting probe sees this coming. Another timing (i've seen this once) is where I got busted by him attacking with 10-15 zealots. I didn't scout properly, but if he's going for this, put a couple more cannons down (into good positions, remember they're melee so you can tuck cannons behind buildings) and try to get a sentry out asap so you can FF at least once cannon to protect it from dying. For your expansion you can put down a couple Gateways there instead of your main to help with the sim city. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
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TrickyGilligan
United States641 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On December 23 2010 05:04 TheGiz wrote: One Immortal and one Void Ray is 500/250. One Colossus is 300/200. I guarantee you that I can beat you in unit count with Colossus support. Remember that with Colossus any Gateway support you may have will melt away in seconds, while my Zealots have longer to live. They'll eliminate your Immortals, which leaves my Stalkers alive to help my Sentries kill your Void Rays. The Colossus War in PvP is all about killing Force Fields and melting away Gateway units. Without their support and without Force Fields to block me, I can assure you that your other units will be quite exposed. P.S. I apologize for the double post. Didn't realize until after. Have you ever played against this build? You shouldn't judge it before you play against it. I'll setup a scenario. Both player open up robo except one player throws down a stargate while the other throws down a robo bay and a 3rd gateway. So now both players have 4 production buildings but the robo bay toss has spent 200/50 more. Both players should primarily have a zealot based army right now with a few sentry mixed in. The collosi player will probably have a few stalkers while the immortal/voidray player won't have any or maybe 1. Once both players scout each other, the collosi player knows he needs to add in stalkers. The problem is that he needs to balance both his resources. He needs to spend his minerals choosing between zealot/stalker and he needs to spend his gas choosing between sentry/stalker/collosi. For every voidray, the other toss needs around 3 stalkers, so in order to counter the voidrays he needs to make less zealots. Also, because collosi and stalkers are so gas heavy, the collosi player won't have much gas to spend on sentires. On the other hand, zealot/immortal/voidray is actually every mineral heavy so the immortal/voidray player can find extra gas to make sentry. What I usually do with the robo/stargate build is expand after around 1-2 voidrays. Usually, if the collosi player pushes, the armies idealy should look something like this: 8 zealot/3 sentry/2 immortal/2 voidray(1950/800 army cost) vs 8 zealot/7 stalker/2 sentry/1 collosi (2025/750 army cost) Usually, however, the collosi player's army is weaker, because as the attacker, he doesn't have as many proxy pylons. The funny thing here is that a smart collosi player has to target the voidrays with the stalkers. Because of this, there's actually 2 fights going on: 8 zealot/3 sentry/2 immortal vs 7 zealot/2 sentry/1 collosi and 2 voidray vs 7 stalker With forcefields, the stalkers will have a hard time targeting the voidrays and with good micro, you should never lose a voidray. On the ground, the 2 ground armies actually do similar damage to each other so both zealot lines should melt around the same time. However, once the zealot lines melt, the immortals just simply clean up the rest of the stalker/collosi army. Alternatively, if your opponent doesn't have enough forcefields, you can abuse the insane damage of the immortal vs stalker collosi and win the army that way. It's kinda hard to explain tbh, but I assure you it works in practice. tldr: Immortal voidray is a very solid build in that it can handle almost anything. Also, it does have an advantage over collosi builds or any other builds that open robo first. | ||
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Lucius2
Germany548 Posts
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On December 23 2010 06:04 wherebugsgo wrote: Plexa, what are your thoughts on going stargate and skipping the robo in PvP? If I may give my opinion as well as a 2300+ who has been using stargate builds since beta... To go stargate, you really have to know your build. With a 4gate or a 3gate robo there is so much more leeway that if you switch to a stargate build, you will find that it is not as forgiving in many instances as the others. Since many many ladder PvP games end in the early stages of the game, the stargate build is not as solid as the others out there. Please consider that most PvP builds are single base colossus or 4gate. If you go Stargate, you WILL lose to a 4gate push and single base colossus, to blink stalker builds, and to DT rushes. You cannot harass effectively with Phoenixes because stalker counts being naturally high in PvP, and by the time you have a high void ray count, your opponent has either pushed and won the game with one of the aforementioned builds, or is ready to push on 2 bases with a more beefy version of those more powerful builds. You may find success trying stargate in PvP, there's no doubt to that. Most likely, however, it will be because you are a better player than your opponent, not because the build is solid in PvP, and if that's the case, you will have most likely made it harder for yourself to beat an otherwise inferior opponent, and are not giving yourself the best chance to win in any given PvP game. Of the many builds possible in PvP, your best success will come against a 3gate robo build where they go stalker and immortal heavy, but then again, pure zealot sentry would beat that wouldn't it? | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
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Dark Void
United States39 Posts
On December 23 2010 06:07 TrickyGilligan wrote: PvP is such a random matchup. There`s no ome build that can be considered `safe.` This isn`t just my opinion either, InControl complained about the PvP matchup bitterly on the last SotG. With that in mind, find something that wins you more than 50% of your PvPs and stick with it. It really depends on your level of play too, low diamond has a lot of 4 gate, while mid is mostly colossi. so, if you`re running into more colossus play than anything else, that should be your priority to deal with. Then from there start looking at what you should do if something different shows up. Well put, and I agree 100% with InControl's statement. It seems for every one things, it is destroyed by another. That said, I have finished the last of the testing I'm doing for now. This apparent "godly" pheonix zealot build, got destroyed in ever test I did. 2 gate robo annihilated it, no matter how much I played with the ratios. 4 gate crushed it, it just seems like no matter how many phoenix or zealots you get, and what you do with them, the zealots will die, there will still be stalkers, and your phoenix are left useless. But I decided to test void ray immortal, zealot. And it pwned. It anyalated stalker collosi, it held it's own against 2 gate robo, and it held strong against collosi zealot stalker sentry, it even managed to hold off 4 gate. And this is of course all figured with forcefields on the immortals. Now keep in mind this was all done in the "Unit Test Solo" map, so I don't know if such a build can survive a 4 gate preasure, or anything like that. But just combat wise, it is awesome. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10316 Posts
One match is on Steppes where I go 3 Gate Stargate vs 3 Gate Robo, and I'll try to find one where I FE into Phoenixes... Although keep in mind that one reason why Phoenixes can be so effective is more simply because they're allowed by gaining the advantage of an expansion, which in turn is quite easy to do on a map like LT, especially if you're random. And another reason is that, unlike Colossi, which would require you to tech on top of already expanding, you can pump Phoenixes easily. I'll edit this post later... Also to note, it's definitely obviously possible like a previous poster said, that the player going Stargate may simply be better or have played much better than the opponent. | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On December 23 2010 06:26 Dark Void wrote: Well put, and I agree 100% with InControl's statement. It seems for every one things, it is destroyed by another. That said, I have finished the last of the testing I'm doing for now. This apparent "godly" pheonix zealot build, got destroyed in ever test I did. 2 gate robo annihilated it, no matter how much I played with the ratios. 4 gate crushed it, it just seems like no matter how many phoenix or zealots you get, and what you do with them, the zealots will die, there will still be stalkers, and your phoenix are left useless. But I decided to test void ray immortal, zealot. And it pwned. It anyalated stalker collosi, it held it's own against 2 gate robo, and it held strong against collosi zealot stalker sentry, it even managed to hold off 4 gate. And this is of course all figured with forcefields on the immortals. Now keep in mind this was all done in the "Unit Test Solo" map, so I don't know if such a build can survive a 4 gate preasure, or anything like that. But just combat wise, it is awesome. 2 gate/robo/stargate is a solid build. Check out some of kiwikaki's replays from mlg for a very solid build. I, myself, do a slight variation of that build. | ||
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Terminator(471)
United States243 Posts
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DuneBug
United States668 Posts
It cannot hit air, and it is less mobile, far less massable (requires robo bay) and has 1 less range. But if all you're going to be fighting is ground targets it would be far better to have only immortals. Immortal sentry zealot is a solid combo but loses to colossus/sentry. Thus you'll have to add in air. It'll also help if you can pick your engagement to be in the open so your army has more room to maneuver. You can also do immortal drops against colossus/sentry. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10316 Posts
The titles should be enough description, if not the description on GameReplay should be enough (overall summary/flow of game) This one is 1 base Stargate play, but this opponent was only a 1200 Platinum. However since the matchmaking system paired me up with him, and neither of us were in a losing streak, it seems that both our MMR's are actually in the Diamond range (as I'm sure mine is). ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-175799.jpg) ]This second one I feel is a lot better. This is against a 2000 Diamond. Although I expand, he expands shortly too, and actually has more than double my income for quite a while (my main is mined out, and I'm trying to get a third so I have 2 mining bases). ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-175797.jpg) ]As you can see my multitasking is quite horrible although my apm is 100+, but you could say the same with his. I engage improperly, forcefield my own zealots, leave Phoenixes idle during battle in order to macro up... I have blink later but I forget I even had it until towards the end. I think this is probably the best replay I can show without me being on a higher footing (sucessful FFE), please don't just critique the play, but actually analyze Stargate vs Robo play. | ||
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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
On December 23 2010 06:00 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: @ (15 nexus 16 forge 16 pylon, you can delay forge and pylon based on scouting, otherwise you need to cut a couple probes for the 16 forge. Sacrifice probes til the cannons are up if he goes for 2 gate pressure). I'm pretty sure you can't do this. whenever i see fast nexus I 4gate in response and it's a bit of a joke. maybe if blizzard releases a map with a small ramp on the nat... | ||
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awang0830
83 Posts
almost every pvp game, iv won vs collosi with immortal phoenix+ chargelots sentries i think tho... what raped your immortals was the zealots, because their really not cost effective against zealots. get a matched amount of zealots, and lift zealots with your phoenixes. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10316 Posts
I'm pretty sure you can't do this. whenever i see fast nexus I 4gate in response and it's a bit of a joke. maybe if blizzard releases a map with a small ramp on the nat... Yeah looking at it, it looks impossible. I'm guessing versus a 4 gate obviously this won't work. But then again, I think if you really spam those cannons and a couple of FF at least, it's doable. Pulling probes too may be. Hm may be I should test? Well of course I'm talking about LT at least, since that 's probably the easiest to cannon up and defend on. I wouldn't do that build on other maps xD Edit: Shakuras would seem ok too, but the cannons may have to be moved forward so they center on the natural's ramp, which would leave the actual expo open to air harassment. But then again if you're going Phoenix then with a couple cannons I don't think it should be a problem... | ||
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PatouPower
Canada1119 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10316 Posts
although, thinking of what would happen if you transition into mass immortal, like into 2 robo's if you see he's going Colossi with at least half his gateway units as Stalkers. What you think? | ||
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Sucio
United States14 Posts
Phoenix builds in PVP are not that effective. What did I read...Phoenix + Zealots and Phoenix + Immortals. Sorry guys. This build just cannot beat a robo build. Phoenix are paper airplanes and can get taken out so quick to stalkers. Heavy zealots will MELT to Colossi. If I can beat battles where Terran makes a TON of Vikings to take out my Colossi which have more range, do more damage and are stronger than Phoenix, than the Phoenix build vs Robo Tech isn't a great choice. Seems like everyone is going back and forth on this topic. I'm going to say straight up that going 2/3 gate robo is the safest opening PvP. You can defend against any 4-Gate/Rush and you can get an OBS out early for vision. If you want to switch techs depending on what you see your opponent doing that's completely fine. I'm just saying that its a the safest bet. I do love how everyone is trying out different builds against toss and I'm sure some of this Phoenix play has worked in a game or two but 4-Gating and Phoenix builds didn't get me into Diamond. It was the Robo tech. That's what I'm basing my opinion on. I've probably played over 400 games using this tech against all match ups and I feel completely safe/in control. I wish you all luck in your Toss endeavors/experimentation! Keep it up and keep these blogs alive! For Aiur. Sucio | ||
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
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Hurkyl
304 Posts
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-FoX
United States479 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10316 Posts
Phoenix builds in PVP are not that effective. What did I read...Phoenix + Zealots and Phoenix + Immortals. Sorry guys. This build just cannot beat a robo build. Phoenix are paper airplanes and can get taken out so quick to stalkers. Heavy zealots will MELT to Colossi. Can you check out my replay vs AzzMighty above on this page? You go in with the Phoenixes first, then your Zealots. That way at least some of the Colossi die and the zealots start hammering on the Stalkers. Also, Phoenixes are not paper airplanes to Stalkers. Phoenixes vs Stalkers... they are only less cost efficient until there are so many Stalkers not all of them can attack at once. Let's see 20 Stalkers or so. Then by 50 the Phoenixes have a huge advantage since they can stack like all air units. But anyways I'm not talking about mass Phoenix vs Stalker that's not the point xD. Robo builds may be much safer and standard, but please don't say a Stargate build can't beat a Robo build. If you see my replay it definitely did (unless you can point out something terribly wrong with the opponent or something where I simply outplayed him). Also remember Phoenixes have the upgrade advantage against Stalkers. Phoenixes can upgrade their attack once, giving them +2 since they attack twice. Stalkers on the other hand only get +1 if they upgrade damage. If they want to upgrade armor to "nullify" the huge +2 bonus the Phoenix get, they will have to upgrade either Shield or Armor or both. Both of which will only apply to half a Stalker's Health (HP and Shield). So conclusion is Stalkers don't counter nor soft counter Phoenixes. In larger numbers (10+) with upgrades they are equal at worst, and begin to rape Stalkers soon after. Math Notes: Assuming 1 gas = 1 mineral at minimum, 1 gas = 2 mineral at maximum. Keep in mind that a Phoenix has 20 health more total (120 hp 60 shield) and attacks faster than a Stalker. And that Phoenixes are Light, doing 5*2 damage to Stalkers while Stalkers do only 10. You can say that the Phoenix needing to pick up Stalkers, rendering some useless, will make them weak enough. But if you have like about 17 Phoenix, you only need about 1 lifting up at a time to let all the other Phoenix 1 shot about 1 Stalker. | ||
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ABCSFirebird
Germany90 Posts
Plus I think if the speed upgrade for VRs will be removed in the next patch, VRs vs colossi will be a less viable option since they need to be able to stay charged - otherwhise your opponent can simply retreat after killing all the ground stuff at attack again when VRs aren't charged anymore. I don't think the bonus vs massive will help the PvP matchup. | ||
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gr8ape
Canada302 Posts
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
On December 23 2010 05:39 yarkO wrote: Immortal + Void Ray rapes any ground comp that Protoss can muster, especially if they went Robo. It's just not dying before you can get 2-3 Immos/Voids that can be challenging. Even scouted (with Obs), Protoss will have a hard time stopping this army. You'll have a load of Zealots, and if he tries to go mass Stalker then he gets pillaged by the Immortals. Blink rushes shut this build down. Yeah, immortal voidray zealot is a great PvP composition. I find that Kiwikaki goes about a pretty safe opening heading towards this composition. I've also accidentally opened 1 gate 2 robo immortal/zealot, and it destroys 4 gate variations assuming you don't die before you get a couple immortals out. | ||
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Scaryman
United States70 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On December 26 2010 21:53 Scaryman wrote: at higher food count nothing competes with colossi in pvp. Its lame but chargelots rape everything toss except colossi. If you don't get colossi the zealots will kill you, and if you try and ff wall the colossi will just punish you for it. In equal supply, immortal/void ray/zealot actually still beats gateway/colossi at higher food counts, all the way up to 200. However, it's a bit unfair, because immortal/voidray/zealot costs more than gateway/collosi. I would revise your statement, "at higher food counts nothing competes with void rays in pvp". It's just getting maxed voidrays that's the problem. Also, blink rushes don't shut this build down if you scout correctly. If you somehow see 4+ stalkers, you can respond by getting a quick immortal out and then you can transition to a collosi build instead of a immortal/void ray build. Three things that do shut this build down are: warp prism 4 gate well played stargate builds denied scouting, because the immortal voidray build relies heavily on scouting your opponent, more so than other builds. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10316 Posts
at higher food count nothing competes with colossi in pvp. Its lame but chargelots rape everything toss except colossi. If you don't get colossi the zealots will kill you, and if you try and ff wall the colossi will just punish you for it. It seems you're forgetting that Colossi can't shoot up... Chargelots rape Colossi, if there isn't enough zealots or other ground army for the Colossi user himself. Again, not true. You can get Zealots yourself to stop the Zealots from killing you. You don't need Colossi. If what you said were true, everyone would mass Zealots. | ||
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TemplarCo.
Mexico2870 Posts
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DizzyDrone
Netherlands629 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10316 Posts
How about doing this lategame? Instead of going 6 gate 2 robo colossus off 2 base you could go 5 gate 2 robo 1 stargate colossus immortal voidray. I'm not a protoss, so I dont know the exact numbers, but I think adding immortals and void rays as support instead of going pure colossi could be quite useful. Ignoring the possibility of killing the opponent before they whittle yours down; That won't give you strong enough anti air. It's possible but very gas heavy so it would only work as a lategame option. But just like any lategame option any combination of high gas high tech units will give you a strong army. If you go 5 Gate 2 Robo 1 Stargate and the opponent goes 3 Stargate 5 (6?) Gate with Phoenixes and mainly Chargelots, then you should be able to win easy. Even without the Chargelots. Because going 2 Robo and 1 Stargate will take up almost all their gas if not more, so their 5 gates would have to be mostly Zealots. So your Phoenix would easily rape the Void Rays, snipe the Colossi, and can pick up the Immortals to kill. So no it probably won't work well if only on 2 base with that production ratio, because of lack of anti air. | ||
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Sucio
United States14 Posts
On December 26 2010 05:59 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Can you check out my replay vs AzzMighty above on this page? You go in with the Phoenixes first, then your Zealots. That way at least some of the Colossi die and the zealots start hammering on the Stalkers. Also, Phoenixes are not paper airplanes to Stalkers. Phoenixes vs Stalkers... they are only less cost efficient until there are so many Stalkers not all of them can attack at once. Let's see 20 Stalkers or so. Then by 50 the Phoenixes have a huge advantage since they can stack like all air units. But anyways I'm not talking about mass Phoenix vs Stalker that's not the point xD. Robo builds may be much safer and standard, but please don't say a Stargate build can't beat a Robo build. If you see my replay it definitely did (unless you can point out something terribly wrong with the opponent or something where I simply outplayed him). Sucio Here. Ok Yoshi I just finished watching your match against AzzMighty. So the main reason why I watched this match-up was too see how the Phoenix fare in PvP but not only that, how Phoenix fare against Colossi. Now...Just looking at the very first battle it was completely clear Colossi/Robo dominated your phoenix build. As I stated, Toss Air might take out all the Colossi but not before the Colossi take out the opponents ground army. That's exactly what I saw happen here....He only had 3 Colossi and did control them poorly, hence running them straight into your zealots (lol) and they even gotten take out but he completed destroyed your first push and had a huge supply advantage after that battle. All he had to do was counter attack after that push and the battle was won with a huge supply advantage. He didn't push in at all which I was very perplexed about... The blunder after that battle was he didn't create any more Colossi till about 8 minutes later lolol. And even though he had 4 bases, he only had 7 probes mining gas lol. He had no gas to make more colossi, he teched to twilight but didn't get any additional upgrades from forge or from the counsel. So that's why he lost game the game and why you won the game. The very last battle no colossi were on the field...HIS MAIN TECH WAS COLOSSI AND HE MADE 3 AND HAD 4 BASES! haha pretty funny stuff. But yeah I have to stick to my opinion and this replay seems to prove it again for me. If he were a more solid player (meaning sending PROBES TO GAS!!!!!!!) then he would have won. Yoshi. I never said stargate builds can't beat robo. In one of my posts I stated that I had been beated by it once before. The fact of the matter is, Colossi MELT zealots and stalkers rip through phoenix and thats what I saw in that first battle. Watch it again and check his supply after that battle. Notice that if he would just counter attack that you would have lost. BTW that was the only battle where Colossi were involved and he won. PS Man I hope you don't take my opinion or anything I say to heart. I think its a great deal of fun having these discussions and reading the creative ideas other players have. Sucio | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10316 Posts
Wow I only watched the replay once and I haven't noticed most of the stuff you mentioned. 7 probes in gas. No Colossi. Rofl no wonder. And sorry, you are right you said "that build" can't beat, instead of Stargate builds can't beat Robo. And still with the Phoenix vs Stalker, I'm not sure if you're talking about what you would actually have on the battlefield when you need them, that the Phoenixes will be raped by Stalkers. Because if you do it cost for cost, Phoenixes, like my other post, are not much behind if at all. And the longer the game is, the larger the numbers grow, and the better Phoenixes get due to stacking and due to the nature of upgrading. EDIT: Just tried it in Unit Tester. Nevermind, Phoenix vs Stalker... Phoenix get raped. Error in my math was, I did not know Stalkers had default +1 armor. Rofl. Yeah that changes everything... I guess it would be a little crazy if Phoenix = Stalkers. Good job again Blizzard xD | ||
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Blunk
Canada27 Posts
I don't like build orders. I'll just list what the goals of this "build" will be. 3 Gates Stargate Expand Just the way I like it. Your army consisting of only Sentries, Zealots, and Pheonix will make a enemy protoss think to himself that he needs to re-evaluate his PvP. Like, why he built a robo? In PvP everything you gain by having a robo can be achieved otherwise or achieved differently and better. Of course this is in my writing and my opinion so if you have some angry rebuttal I'll be glad to hear it. Some little things you can do from this basic slate of a build. If you're feeling comfortable, go ahead and make a forge. From there you can go ahead and make a few cannons to scare away any dt plays. While your at it why not get +1 att? Sentries benefit from this upgrade enough to make it worth it. Hallucinate. Doesn't take too much effort to research, so if your have the money, which you will, go ahead. Hallucinate some colosi/archons/immortals or anything else you can to confuse your opponent and absorb damage in battle. I posted this because I want you guys to realise that if your opponent makes pheonix you can say goodbye to everything that came out of your robo. Seriously. Stop making robos. | ||
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Tivo
United States121 Posts
On December 28 2010 07:42 Blunk wrote: This is my PvP opener as of late. I don't like build orders. I'll just list what the goals of this "build" will be. 3 Gates Stargate Expand Just the way I like it. Your army consisting of only Sentries, Zealots, and Pheonix will make a enemy protoss think to himself that he needs to re-evaluate his PvP. Like, why he built a robo? In PvP everything you gain by having a robo can be achieved otherwise or achieved differently and better. Of course this is in my writing and my opinion so if you have some angry rebuttal I'll be glad to hear it. Some little things you can do from this basic slate of a build. If you're feeling comfortable, go ahead and make a forge. From there you can go ahead and make a few cannons to scare away any dt plays. While your at it why not get +1 att? Sentries benefit from this upgrade enough to make it worth it. Hallucinate. Doesn't take too much effort to research, so if your have the money, which you will, go ahead. Hallucinate some colosi/archons/immortals or anything else you can to confuse your opponent and absorb damage in battle. I posted this because I want you guys to realise that if your opponent makes pheonix you can say goodbye to everything that came out of your robo. Seriously. Stop making robos. Colossi= infinite (until the unit dies) ground splash damage and the ability to break forcefields for the rest of your ground army. And hallucination? IF HE HAS A ROBO HE HAS OBSERVERS unless he's an idiot. | ||
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confusedcrib
United States1307 Posts
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Blunk
Canada27 Posts
On December 28 2010 07:49 Tivo wrote: Colossi= infinite (until the unit dies) ground splash damage and the ability to break forcefields for the rest of your ground army. And hallucination? IF HE HAS A ROBO HE HAS OBSERVERS unless he's an idiot. Sorry, I don't see the relevance of that to what I said? If you're saying robo is a more viable option, you're not nessecarily wrong, anything can win a game, but I'm not swayed that much. Pheonixes lift immortals and kill colossi, as opposed to immortals not killing pheonixes, and colossi not killing phoenixes. Am I missing something? I hope you didn't think I meant phoenixes vs. a gateway army + colossi + immortals, the player with phoenixes would obviously have a gateway army as well. | ||
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Tivo
United States121 Posts
On December 28 2010 13:59 Blunk wrote: Sorry, I don't see the relevance of that to what I said? If you're saying robo is a more viable option, you're not nessecarily wrong, anything can win a game, but I'm not swayed that much. Pheonixes lift immortals and kill colossi, as opposed to immortals not killing pheonixes, and colossi not killing phoenixes. Am I missing something? I hope you didn't think I meant phoenixes vs. a gateway army + colossi + immortals, the player with phoenixes would obviously have a gateway army as well. I was referring to the bolded part. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
It's a terrible build and only beats blink stalkers. So if your friend only knows blinkstalkers, go this ^.^ | ||
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MiKTeX
United States234 Posts
generally the best way to combat a mass colossus player is to have good positioning for your units. dont just shout "charge!" and proceed to 1A your units. rather, use observers and watch towers to see when/where he is going to attack and make sure your units are spread out. you would be surprised how good just spreading your units and having some zealots/stalkers flank your opponent can be my pvp style involves getting a reasonably fast expo with a cannon and a total of 4 gates soon after and eventually adding 2 forges, more gates, and a twilight council for the zealot/stalker upgrades. when the mass colossus player does engage i just have so much shit, better upgrades, and good positioning that i dont even care that he has the go-to power unit (obviously as late game i will add colossus because they are just so good, but my mid game revolves around superior upgrades and positioning to win me the fights) mass gateway is just my style, but the important thing is to have good positioning when going against colossus p.s. charge zealots are sick in pvp | ||
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Scaryman
United States70 Posts
On December 27 2010 05:58 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: It seems you're forgetting that Colossi can't shoot up... Chargelots rape Colossi, if there isn't enough zealots or other ground army for the Colossi user himself. Again, not true. You can get Zealots yourself to stop the Zealots from killing you. You don't need Colossi. If what you said were true, everyone would mass Zealots. if it wasn't for ff and chokes everyone would mass zealots. | ||
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giuocob
United States149 Posts
Anyway, as far as void rays versus colossus, don't forget that the patch is going to make void rays bring the pain more efficiently to massive units. I can see that having a profound impact on the viability of void rays in this matchup, though I'll have to wait to see on that. | ||
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red_hq
Canada450 Posts
If you want to avoid war of the worlds just get VRs essentially if you keep them behind your stalker line and dart them in and out so if they engage you tear through the stalkers with zealots and then finish em with your VRs which you hopefully keep alive. But if they play it smart and just collo your zealots to nothing then you can fly your VRs around the army and start charging on the collo. VRs just tear through everything toss once they are charged. | ||
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