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So I think I'm done with 13p15h and 14h15p. I'll probably wait until I get all 4 builds in before posting stats and graphs (I'm recording data every second now which gets rid of most of the effects caused by choice of measurement time), but a rundown of the differences between 13p15h and 14h15p is interesting.
13p15h ends up about 280 resources behind.
More specifically, from 2:00 - 3:00, it's about 10 minerals behind, from 3:00 - 5:00 it steadily drops behind hitting a short pause at ~170 behind, and from 5:30 til just before the 7 minute mark, it steadily drops to ~280 behind where it sticks, because that's the point where both builds have the same number of workers mining (19 on the main, 20 on the expansion), and all the workers are settled in.
Larvae-wise, between 3:00 and 4:00, 13p has about a .5 larva disadvantage, which after 4:00 (the time the first inject completes), 13p has an advantage whose size is extremely difficult to measure due to the way I'm calculating larva, but my best guess is either 1.77 or 2.77, or a 1.77 advantage that somehow turns into 2.77 around the 7 minute mark, which doesn't make a lot of sense. (in my data, the most frequent difference that shows up is 2.7, but that number doesn't show up at all until 6:57, and the number that shows up most frequently before that is 1.77)
It's for *sure* at least a 1.5 larva advantage starting at 4:00 though.
Timings for when various stuff starts:
14h15p
Hatch 1:58
Pool 2:29
Extractor 2:56
Scout 3:00
Ling 3:37
Speed 4:22
Tumor 4:28
Crawler 4:44
13h15p
Pool 1:41
Hatch 2:29
Scout 2:56
Extractor 2:57
Ling 3:39
Tumor 4:20
Speed 4:24
Crawler 4:48
The build orders:
14h15p
9 OL
14 Hatch
15 Pool
17 Extractor (not ASAP though, I was able to wait and still match the timing from the idra build)
16 OL
18 Queen at main (tumor then inject expansion)
20 Zergling
21 Queen at expansion (inject expansion)
26 OL
27 Speed
30 Crawler
29 OL
36 OL
Drone to 48 supply then build nothing but lots of overlords and zerglings
13p15h
9OL
13 Pool
15 Hatch
14 Queen at main (inject main, tumor, inject expansion)
17 Extractor (ASAP on this one)
17 OL
19 Queen at main (inject main)
21 Zergling
24 OL
26 Speed
29 Crawler
30 OL
36 OL
Drone to 48 supply then build nothing but lots of overlords and zerglings
Interestingly, because the 13 pool is so much faster, the first queen was able to inject and still get a tumor down faster than 14h, even though 14h created a tumor as soon as the first queen popped. The second tumor, linking the main and expansion completely, finishes and starts generating creep just a little longer than a minute after the first one starts.
11p18h is next. It took me a good chunk of the day to get 13p15h in though (although a lot of that was spent trying to debug a specific situation where the build order code thought it was making 2 drones that didn't actually get made, throwing everything off). Even with all the support code in, it's still an extremely time consuming process to try to figure out when to fit in the extra stuff. Because it's taking so long, I *definitely* won't be doing any builds other than the original 4 I planned (14h15p, 13p15h, 11p18h, and 16h15p) unless somebody is willing to take the time to figure out how best to insert gas, tumors, speed, and a spine at approximately the same times as listed above. Those 4 are enough to satisfy my own curiousity, if you want to satisfy yours, you're going to have to do the legwork.
Pretty sure 11p18h is going to be quite a bit behind 13p15h, and that the timings of adding the extra stuff will be awkward. Trying to get the same gas and speed timing might actually be completely impossible.
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Oh yeah, and the important conclusion that can be drawn so far:
Adding the extra stuff definitely does hurt 13p more than 14h, because 280 is quite a bit more behind than it was with the drone races, by about 180. (my data and jacob's both showed 13p being about 100 resources behind 14h)
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Wow, man, Skrag. Awesome work! Keep it up, but allow yourself to have Christmas, eh?  Looking forward to the graphs and stats, but no rush.
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Wowowow.
I've got 11p18h in, and I need to double-check to make sure I haven't screwed something up, but 11p18h had a much easier time adding the extra stuff than I thought it would, and it actually felt quite a bit cleaner and easier than 13p15h.
Initial data puts 11p18h only 60-ish resources behind 14h15p at 9:00, which puts it *way* ahead of 13p15h. (although I did find some a few small problems with the 13p15h build that increased the results somewhat)
A couple departures that I allowed:
#1: Rather than sending a drone scout at around the 3:00 mark, I moved the lings earlier, starting them at 2:58 and finishing at 3:23. This delays the scouting by about 20 seconds, but it's *much* better scouting, and we were saying we wanted a pair of lings anyway.
#2: I allowed 2 injects before tumor, which delayed the tumor until 4:51, which is about 20 seconds later (1/2 an inject) later than the other builds. I felt like this was an acceptable tradeoff because 11p has more defensive options available than just "have creep", and a little more flexibility.
The build:
10 Extractor
11 OL
11 Pool
16 Queen (inject main twice, tumor, inject exp)
18 Hatch
17 Extractor
16 Zergling
17 OL
20 OL
20 Queen (inject main)
26 Speed
28 OL
28 Crawler
36 OL
Drone to 47 supply then build nothing but lords and lings.
Timings:
Pool 1:27
Hatch 2:51
Extractor 2:54
Ling 2:58
Speed 4:22
Crawler 4:48
Tumor 4:51
I'm going to double-check both the 13p15h and 14h15p builds to make sure I haven't screwed anything up, and I might try getting a creep tumor faster just to see how much of an effect that has, but unless I've massively screwed something up (and I spent quite a bit of extra time on the 13p just to see if I could get it better than the previous results which were pretty bad), it seems 11p18h actually adjusts *better* to a little bit of added reality than both 13p and 14h.
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This result kinda makes me want to try 14p16h though. 13p15h is not an opening I had ever heard of or seen used before this whole 11pool thing started, and the only reason I've been looking at it at all is because it did seem to be the best pool-first build by quite a big margin based on earlier testing.
Seeing how much trouble it has dealing with reality makes me wonder if 14p16h might not do better.
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I just got owned by this . Tought my opponent was going for 10 pool rush into mutalisks . I fended off the zerglings and finded lot's of zerglings + hydras at his main .......... Seriously , zerg haves it to easy early game , bring back reapers revert zealot build time so u can punish zerg players for going verry economicall builds
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Ok, watching the 14h go again, it looks like it takes almost 2 full minutes longer for the expansion drones to settle in. But 13p and 11p are both settling at almost exactly the same time (6:50 for the main and 6:35 for the expansion), and even after the improvements I made to 13p (one of which was getting the drones to settle, in the previous run, neither base had settled by 10:00, despite the fact that no drones had been added after 6:30 or so), 13p is still just over 100 resources behind 11p.
I've spent enough time micromanaging the two pool-first builds that I'm pretty confident that's a valid comparison. Going to give 14h one more pass and see what happens.
But geez. It looks like we've pretty much come full-circle here, with 11p possibly being the best pool-first build again, and *really* close economically to even 14h15p.
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On December 23 2010 06:38 metalsonic wrote:I just got owned by this . Tought my opponent was going for 10 pool rush into mutalisks . I fended off the zerglings and finded lot's of zerglings + hydras at his main .......... Seriously , zerg haves it to easy early game , bring back reapers revert zealot build time so u can punish zerg players for going verry economicall builds
How exactly would you "punish" an 11pool, if it turns out that the build can in fact be *very* close economically to the best hatch-first builds?
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Ok im gonna figure out the build order for 14 gas 14 pool brb
Did you mine gas after speed?
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Improving the 14h15p settle-in time (basically by randomly shuffling the last 4 drones added to different patches, which improved the settle-in time by a minute and a half, but still leaving it 30 seconds behind the other 2) increased the 14h lead to around 100 resources.
I'm going to try to figure out how to publish the map in such a way that I can post the 3 replays and let you guys try to pick them apart.
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On December 23 2010 06:56 ChickenLips wrote:
Ok im gonna figure out the build order for 14 gas 14 pool brb
Did you mine gas after speed?
I never pulled drones off gas. The reason to do so is so that you can expand faster, and in every case, the hatchery is already up.
It's going to be *really* difficult to draw meaningful conclusions from a comparison against 14g14p though. The goal is completely different. (speed asap, as opposed to expansion asap)
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*edit*
Something went screwy in my attempts to make the map playable on battle.net. Going to fix the map and go back to what I was doing before and then try to post reps
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Ok, replay problem. I tried to make it playable on battle.net by adding a human player (I have only one player set to AI when running from the editor, because it allows me to be a spectator in the game), and that caused the random seeding to be off.
So I put it back, but now I can't upload the replays to any of the sites I've tried, presumably because there's only one player. Anybody know of a replay site that doesn't do replay parsing?
Guess I could just use megaupload.
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Ok, anybody willing to try this? I just want to know if you can watch it.
[url blocked]
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mediafire is better imo, no 45 second wait time
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Ok, I don't know if these actually work (still waiting for somebody to tell me)
Mediafire links:
11p18h: Replay
13p15h: Replay
14h15p: Replay
*edit* updated links. 13p15h should now work if the other ones do. (gee I sure wish somebody would try one and let me know)
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The map data loaded does not match the map data which was originally used to play the game.
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Try the 11p18h from mediafire. I created the 13p replay before re-publishing the map, but the other two after publishing the latest changes.
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Skrag: Thank you soo much for doing this. From what you've posted I'm doing some of my own mathematics to access different build orders. What can you conclude will be your "Go-To" opener as of right now.
Also: can you try 16 hatch 17 pool? I know it sounds soo silly but I do it against Zerg and it feels right..
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EPT
