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It doesn't matter. That queen is ready in time for the 3rd inject, and it couldn't possibly be ready in time to do the second inject instead of the first queen.
I tried to optimize the builds the best I could, but I don't think it's really possible to explain what a ridiculous amount of work that is to actually do, so I'm sure there are small imperfections here and there.
For example, although that readjustment wouldn't get the third inject any faster, it *might* allow the second queen to put out the tumor rather than the first one, which would result in skipping an inject at the main rather than one at the expansion, and would get the tumor down a little bit sooner. To be perfectly honest, though, at this point I'm not particularly interested in readjusting the drone micro from that point on, although if that timing does work, it would bring 11p18h even closer to 14h15p. It's already *more* than close enough to show its validity though IMO.
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On December 24 2010 16:40 Skrag wrote:
It doesn't matter. That queen is ready in time for the 3rd inject, and it couldn't possibly be ready in time to do the second inject instead of the first queen.
The early money wouldn't have to be spent on the Queen, per se. At that point there are only 14 drones mining minerals. That could be upped a bit earlier, without delaying the Queen.
On December 24 2010 16:40 Skrag wrote:
For example, although that readjustment wouldn't get the third inject any faster, it *might* allow the second queen to put out the tumor rather than the first one, which would result in skipping an inject at the main rather than one at the expansion, and would get the tumor down a little bit sooner.
It seems that that is indeed possible. The current script makes the Creep Tumor at 4:52, but the earlier second Queen would finish at 4:30.
On December 24 2010 16:40 Skrag wrote:
To be perfectly honest, though, at this point I'm not particularly interested in readjusting the drone micro from that point on, although if that timing does work, it would bring 11p18h even closer to 14h15p. It's already *more* than close enough to show its validity though IMO.
Oh totally agreed. But you asked for people to poke holes at the replays, so I did.  The "holes" here only work in 11p18h's favor, though.
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On December 24 2010 17:16 Nolari wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 16:40 Skrag wrote:
It doesn't matter. That queen is ready in time for the 3rd inject, and it couldn't possibly be ready in time to do the second inject instead of the first queen. The early money wouldn't have to be spent on the Queen, per se. At that point there are only 14 drones mining minerals. That could be upped a bit earlier, without delaying the Queen.
There are no larvae, which is why its waiting to build an overlord.
It seems that that is indeed possible. The current script makes the Creep Tumor at 4:52, but the earlier second Queen would finish at 4:30.
Yeah, maybe, like I said, they're not all perfect at every single point
Oh totally agreed. But you asked for people to poke holes at the replays, so I did. The "holes" here only work in 11p18h's favor, though.
Yeah, I was really more looking for holes that would overturn the very surprising results with 11p. 
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On December 24 2010 17:44 Skrag wrote:
There are no larvae, which is why its waiting to build an overlord.
Ah whoops. So then the earlier Queen is the only thing that can be done to not float so many minerals. I wonder if I can figure out enough of the Galaxy Editor to make that change. Probably will take a while.
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Hmm, making the Queen changes was pretty easy. But without updating the Drone micro, it actually makes the build worse by a couple minerals. And getting it perfect again is quite a pain. Deep respect for all the work you put into this. 
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Would it be possible to make the script spam right click on a mineral patch to force a group of 2-3 workers into a routine on that patch, the way some pros do?
That would make updating the drones a lot easier after editing a build. Then it might be feasible after all to test a larger number of builds. I doubt any will offer significant benefit over 14h15p and 11p18h, but perhaps that may change after a future balance change.
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On December 24 2010 20:00 Nolari wrote:
Would it be possible to make the script spam right click on a mineral patch to force a group of 2-3 workers into a routine on that patch, the way some pros do?
I actually realized this would be possible and was working on it when I read this. It took a lot of digging into the sequence of events that happen while drones are harvesting, but I just about have it working so that drones will automatically pick the best spot to go to, and force themselves to stay on that spot.
Which will make it a *LOT* easier to add new builds and modify the ones that are already there.
God, I wish I would have thought of this sooner. It makes things so much easier. 
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So after adding the auto-drone micro, and doing some small adjustments to the builds mostly to pull the best drones to build stuff in the new configuration, adding complete saturation (which I can do now with the drone forcing) and including the earlier queen on 11p18h to use the second queen for a faster tumor (but slightly slower third inject), the results are pretty similar.
11p18h is still way ahead of 13p15h, ending up about 95 minerals behind 14h, compared to 13p being 250 behind.
Now that I can add builds much more easily, I'm going to finish off 16h15p, add at *least* 14p16h, and maybe add one or two of the other hatch-first builds that were pretty comparable to 14h15p.
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Data on 16h15p:
Between 2:30 and 4:30, it is ahead of 14h15p by about 25 minerals. From 4:30-5:30 it is ahead by about 15 minerals. From there it steadily drops to being behind 40 by 3:30.
It also has a very sizable larva disadvantage. It's *never* ahead on larvae, and after about 5:00 it's behind by what looks to be start out at being 3 larvae behind and then drop to being 5 behind.
During the period where 13p15h has more larvae than it can spend, making it a pretty awkward build, 16h15p has more minerals than larvae, so it seems just as awkward, only in reverse.
The 5 larvae disadvantage is *huge* IMO. 16h might be ok if you have the intention of building a fast 3rd hatchery, which I think is where I've seen it in use by Dimaga, but in pretty much every other situation, it would seem to be strictly worse than 14h. And even then, if the third hatch doesn't come before 5:30 or so, you're probably better off with 14h anyway.
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That's probably it for at least the next couple days. It's christmas yaknow!
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On December 25 2010 04:28 Skrag wrote:
Data on 16h15p:
Between 2:30 and 4:30, it is ahead of 14h15p by about 25 minerals. From 4:30-5:30 it is ahead by about 15 minerals. From there it steadily drops to being behind 40 by 3:30.
It also has a very sizable larva disadvantage. It's *never* ahead on larvae, and after about 5:00 it's behind by what looks to be start out at being 3 larvae behind and then drop to being 5 behind.
During the period where 13p15h has more larvae than it can spend, making it a pretty awkward build, 16h15p has more minerals than larvae, so it seems just as awkward, only in reverse.
The 5 larvae disadvantage is *huge* IMO. 16h might be ok if you have the intention of building a fast 3rd hatchery, which I think is where I've seen it in use by Dimaga, but in pretty much every other situation, it would seem to be strictly worse than 14h. And even then, if the third hatch doesn't come before 5:30 or so, you're probably better off with 14h anyway.
This data looks suspicious -- it would mean that the 16 Hatch was delayed a full 30 seconds relative to the 14 Hatch (A HatchQueen averages just over 6 seconds per larvae), which in turn means that you are building the 14 Hatchery immediately after the larvae pops for the 14th Drone (and similarly for the 16 Hatchery)
Could it be that you are just sending the drone for the 16 Hatch very late? Your result seems plausible if you don't send the Drone until you actually have 16 supply, rather than having the Drone arrive at the natural just as you get the 300 minerals needed.
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On December 25 2010 04:56 Hurkyl wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2010 04:28 Skrag wrote:
Data on 16h15p:
Between 2:30 and 4:30, it is ahead of 14h15p by about 25 minerals. From 4:30-5:30 it is ahead by about 15 minerals. From there it steadily drops to being behind 40 by 3:30.
It also has a very sizable larva disadvantage. It's *never* ahead on larvae, and after about 5:00 it's behind by what looks to be start out at being 3 larvae behind and then drop to being 5 behind.
During the period where 13p15h has more larvae than it can spend, making it a pretty awkward build, 16h15p has more minerals than larvae, so it seems just as awkward, only in reverse.
The 5 larvae disadvantage is *huge* IMO. 16h might be ok if you have the intention of building a fast 3rd hatchery, which I think is where I've seen it in use by Dimaga, but in pretty much every other situation, it would seem to be strictly worse than 14h. And even then, if the third hatch doesn't come before 5:30 or so, you're probably better off with 14h anyway. This data looks suspicious -- it would mean that the 16 Hatch was delayed a full 30 seconds relative to the 14 Hatch (A HatchQueen averages just over 6 seconds per larvae), which in turn means that you are building the 14 Hatchery immediately after the larvae pops for the 14th Drone (and similarly for the 16 Hatchery) Could it be that you are just sending the drone for the 16 Hatch very late? Your result seems plausible if you don't send the Drone until you actually have 16 supply, rather than having the Drone arrive at the natural just as you get the 300 minerals needed.
The drone to build the 14 hatch doesn't get sent until 14 supply is reached. The drone to build the 16hatch gets sent on 15 supply (it has to in order to get there in time to build the hatchery). I'm absolutely positive I'm building the hatch as soon as possible, because it took me about 30 minutes to get that one thing right, and I had to add a new bit of support logic in order to be able to do it correctly.
16h starts the hatch at 2:05, and 14h starts it at 1:57.
16h starts the pool at 2:26, and 14h starts it at 2:28.
So you're right, that does look a little strange, and I can't explain it. But I'm pretty sure the result is correct, and that 16h is somewhere between 3-5 larvae behind, although I have absolutely no explanation as to why that could possibly be.
In fact, given that they both tumor the same way (with the first queen's first 25 energy), I don't see how it *can* be possible. The hatch and pool timings are so close, and that's the main thing that's going to affect larvae counts.
But I also made sure 16h built queens as soon as it could, and I've double-checked the data. I'm sort of at a loss here.
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The only thing I can think is that maybe the 16h build missed an inject somehow, although the logic for injects is the same for all the builds, so that would be weird.
I'll pore over the replay when I get a chance, but it's not gonna happen tonight.
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A missing inject also sounds like it gives the right number. I haven't followed the thread closely so I don't know how you are measuring things. If you are just taking a sample rather than averaging, could it be that you sampled during the 8 seconds between when the 14 Hatch gets an inject and when the 16 Hatch does?
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I'm actually sampling every second.
16h finishes queens at 4:21 and 4:35.
14h finishes them at 4:23 and 4:29.
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Here's a link to a hires larva graph:
http://www.mediafire.com/i/?5kxnpyip8nler8q
And a graph of the difference between 14h and 16h:
http://www.mediafire.com/i/?vzk4zyh54xo2b8c
![[image loading]](http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/937b5ec4117f563e9257fc76c31160dc31337466214cf7369309afb5f0e2653a6g.jpg)
I just re-watched 16h, and it looks like its doing everything it should be. Injects are all on time, etc. Obviously the graphs are difficult to interpret, and when I say 5 I'm just taking the approximate average of the spikes. Although looking again I'd probably want to say 2 or 3 just because that looks more consistent
But even that doesn't make sense. 14h has an 8 second advantage on the second hatch, and only like a 4 second advantage on injects. (I also verified that the 14p was putting down a creep tumor when it should)
Which should work out to be less than 1 larva on average.
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Maybe my larva calculation is forgetting something.
The total larva count comes from:
Number of drones (in progress and completed) +
Number of available larvae +
Number of overlords (in progress and completed) +
Number of zerglings +
Number of buildings
And after typing that out, I think I know what's going on. Zergling count should be halved. :/
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So that explains why it seemed the advantage increased at a weird time. Because that's when the builds start generating a shitload of zerglings. Here's the new difference graph:
![[image loading]](http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/3ce9c928e28333f3d879c52419b68141429ce8a0a0d734ec76293f2529fd61656g.jpg)
I'd still want to call that an average of at least 1.5 after 6:45 though. There's a pretty clear shift there that I still have no explanation for.
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Wow Skrag, awesome sauce! Now it's not just an investigation into a couple of builds, but a framework to investigate any conceivable build with fairly little effort.
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From the timings on the Hatch, I would expect the difference to be one and a third larvae. Since you have the raw data, can't you just compute an average over, say, the last 2 minutes, rather than trying to guesstimate from the graph?
(2 minutes because that's an integer multiple of both 15 and 40 seconds)
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EPT
