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On December 27 2010 07:28 Skrag wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2010 07:07 alepov wrote:
so as it stands now, 14h15p is the "best" ? Was that ever a question?
Seems like a decent enough question -- remember that the OP concludes with "So far for the economic analysis the best Hatch first build is the 13H/15P. The best pool first build is the 13P/15H. The 11P/18H also may deserve to be added because it gets the pool earlier."
Of course, those conclusions were shorter-term and didn't involve any creep tumors, spine crawlers, or lings -- I'm interested in seeing what the results turn up, to see how well the 13h15p can hold up while still getting the hatchery down about 5+ seconds earlier than 14/15.
Or, 5 seconds earlier if you split drones perfectly and send out the drone to the natural at exactly the right time, it isn't blocked, etc.
On December 27 2010 07:35 Skrag wrote:
The readjustments I had to do in order to make it playable on battle.net improved the performance of 14h15p by 15-20 minerals for some reason. In the graph I just posted, 14h15p's resource count under the new configuration (apparently forcing a fixed random seed via trigger ends up using a different fixed seed than forcing a fixed seed in the map editor, so I had to rearrange some stuff to make them work properly again) was used as the baseline, so what's actually graphed for each build is its resource count minus 14h15p's resource count.
So if you were comparing the replay I posted against old data, it could be quite a bit closer, and 13h15p might even seem slightly ahead.
Expected this might be a "for some reason" kind of thing -- just going through the first few seconds (before the first OL, even) I saw advantages I couldn't explain.
On December 27 2010 07:35 Skrag wrote:
Also, if you put 13h15p into the script and ever showed it being behind 11p18h at the 9 minute mark, then I would have to say the script you added was extremely sub-optimal, because every incarnation of 13h15p I've done was significantly ahead of 11p, but slightly behind 14h.
Problem identified -- will leave the testing to the pros =D
On December 27 2010 07:44 Skrag wrote:I just updated the spreadsheet and map in mediafire. The old links should still work, here they are again: Spreadsheet (OpenOffice required)The MapAlso just added a 2 minute larvae difference average graph to the earlier post. It's less precise than the instantaneous larvae measure obviously, but allows all 6 builds to be shown on the same graph.
You are amazing. Also, I think MS Office ('07, anyway) supports the OpenOffice formats pretty well now, so folks who already have Excel shouldn't have to install anything extra. That, or I forgot about the extra stuff I installed...
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On December 27 2010 08:53 MinusPlus wrote:
Seems like a decent enough question -- remember that the OP concludes with "So far for the economic analysis the best Hatch first build is the 13H/15P. The best pool first build is the 13P/15H. The 11P/18H also may deserve to be added because it gets the pool earlier."
The OP was based on a pure drone race, and even then, the advantage of 13h15p was in question to begin with, since he had one data point that looked like an outlier, being significantly higher than all the other runs and dragging the average up.
Also, the OP did show 13p15h being the best pool-first build economically, but that build fell flat on its face when trying to inject bits of reality. Of all the builds I've entered, it performed the worst by far, and by a significant margin. It simply doesn't have the resources to use available larvae once you start building things other than drones to mine more minerals. Which would explain why nobody had even really heard of it before the whole 11p18h thing started, and people were doing drone races. It turns out 13p15h is really good at a drone race, but pretty horrible at anything else.
11p18h held up *much* better, and is fairly close to 14p16h. If you want to go pool first, 11 overpool and 14 pool both seem like decent alternatives, with 11pool having some additional psychological advantages, as well as the ability to more easily adjust into one-base play if necessary, and 14pool being the slightly more economic choice, both in resources and larvae.
One of the biggest complaints in all the 11p18h threads is that the build simply wouldn't hold up economically once you started actually trying to do things other than build drones. I believe the data puts that claim pretty solidly to rest, though, with only 14p performing better, and only slightly better at that.
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Just out of curiosity, I ran 15h14p to see how it compared, and it appears to gain a (very) late small larva advantage at the cost of a smaller early larva disadvantage and a resource disadvantage. 13h15p seems better in every possible way, with a bigger and earlier larva advantage, and a smaller resource disadvantage.
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I was wondering if it would be a good idea to make "safety" of a build slightly less abstract so this can also be tested. There are a few values that add to a build's safety in my opinion;
- The time when a player is able to make his first set of zerglings (eg. the time when the spawning pool is finished)
- The time when a player can have a spinecrawler at his expension (either by building it in the main and moving it, or by building it at the expansion)
A list of timings like these could then be compared to the timings on popular builds to determine how safe a build really is.
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In this last round of testing, all the builds tried to do the same things at approximately the same time as a 14h14p replay of Idra. Most of the timings are within a few seconds of each other for the first set of zerglings, zergling speed, a creep tumor, and a spine crawler.
So they all have pretty much the exact same "safety" level.
And besides, the entire point of this thread is to measure and compare economic differences between builds.
The implementation is not perfect by any means, because different builds will be better at doing different things, and builds that appear to sacrifice a lot of economy might be better if the timing requirements were relaxed, but it's a much more accurate test (IMO anyway) of the actual economics of a build than a pure drone race is, since you're never actually going to be building up to 42 drones without building anything else.
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Why does the conclusion graph not have 11 pool 18 hatch on it?
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On December 27 2010 11:48 DeltruS wrote:
Why does the conclusion graph not have 11 pool 18 hatch on it?
uhh...
it does?
I even wrote blurbs about it in both posts that contained graphs.
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Damn.
I put an absolute *shitton* of work into this, to end up feeling like only two or three people actually saw the final results or cared.
lol
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I care :D Thanks for posting. I just started this game and was thinking of playing Zerg. This is going to help me a tonne.
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Most certainly not! This has been my most read thread lately, and I watched all the bo on the map you released. Lately I have been wondering about a build with faster gas: with a protoss 4 gate push, the warpagates finish at 5:40. With a 14 gas 14 pool, speed is done at 5:20 which is too soon. With the gas timings of 14h15p and 11p18h, speed is done at around 6:30, which may be a tad too late on some map. I was wondering on the impact of switching hatch and gas in the 11p18h bo, someting like
18extractor
17ling
18ov
17hatch
for a quicker scout+gas.
It should get the speed a bit faster, while having better economy than 14gas14pool21hatch. What do you think?
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My gut says that anything you add to 11p18h before the hatch will hurt it pretty significantly economically.
Then again, my gut said that 13p was going to still be better than all the other pool-first builds in the economic tests after the "reality injection" of doing real stuff other than just building drones, when the reality of the situation is that 13p15h apparently falls apart completely for anything other than a drone race.
A lot of the reason that 11p holds up so well is that it gets the queen so fast, because its hatch is already pretty significantly delayed (almost a full minute behind 14h15p), so maybe an additional slight delay wouldn't make that huge of a difference, I dunno.
I do agree that speed on 14g14p seems unnecessarily fast. It was basically required in ZvT before the reaper speed nerf, but seems a lot less necessary to get really fast now.
Another thing I've been considering is trying to do a comparison between 14h15p, 11p18h, and maybe 14p16h in situations where your hatchery gets blocked and a 14h has to put down a pool first, and both builds have to wait until the expansion can be cleared to put down a hatchery.
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33373 views and you feel like noone has seen this? O__o (FYI for a thread that concerns only ~25% of the player base that is a lot)
Just because a lot of people just lurk (especially in threads as technical as this one) doesn't mean they don't appreciate it.
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On December 30 2010 02:01 Skrag wrote:
Damn.
I put an absolute *shitton* of work into this, to end up feeling like only two or three people actually saw the final results or cared.
lol
hey Skrag, I've actually been following this thread for awhile now. I don't ever post tho, but I registered just to give you a shout out and a big thanks for all your hard work!!
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On December 30 2010 03:07 ChickenLips wrote:
33373 views and you feel like noone has seen this? O__o (FYI for a thread that concerns only ~25% of the player base that is a lot)
Just because a lot of people just lurk (especially in threads as technical as this one) doesn't mean they don't appreciate it.
Lol. Yeah, that's a lot of views. I stand corrected. The action in the thread just died off a lot after I started posting results, where it was almost always staying near the front page before. :/
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Ok Skrag, this is officially my first post. I registered an account just to let you know that your hard work is definitely appreciated. Please keep testing these builds. You do the swarm proud.
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not quite the first post but almost  and with the others a deffinate im interested and following (you were avid xmass reading much more than my friends and family would have liked. I didn't want to intrude with please inculde X in your tests as it's clearly a lot of work to run and i was happy to look at what you felt you had time to do. BTW totaly kicked the other faux scientific analysis threads ass.
I would also be very interested in hatch after clearing if you do want to carry on the good work.
Live for the swarm
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On December 30 2010 02:48 Skrag wrote:
Another thing I've been considering is trying to do a comparison between 14h15p, 11p18h, and maybe 14p16h in situations where your hatchery gets blocked and a 14h has to put down a pool first, and both builds have to wait until the expansion can be cleared to put down a hatchery.
That would be awesome. Expansion blocks are soooo annoying, but unfortunately also pretty common. What you said about 11p18h's fast Queen and delayed Hatchery may mean that it is also less disadvantaged when there's a Pylon or Engineering Bay to be killed before being able to expand. Would love to see if that is true.
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On December 30 2010 02:48 Skrag wrote:
My gut says that anything you add to 11p18h before the hatch will hurt it pretty significantly economically.
[Snip]
I do agree that speed on 14g14p seems unnecessarily fast. It was basically required in ZvT before the reaper speed nerf, but seems a lot less necessary to get really fast now.
Yeah, I would agree with you that gas before hatch in 11p18h will hurt the economy quite a bit, but as you said, the strong point of 11p18h is the very fast queen, which allow it to be quite flexible. My feeling is that fast gas will hurt it less than a fast gas in 14h15p. And we only need the economy to be better than 14g14p21h, which should not be too hard. 14g14p21h is the recommended buil by ZergLegend in ZvP, but I have the feeling the speed comes too fast, and we could improve the economy a lot by delaying it by 10-20 sec, and it looks like 11p18h would be the best build for that.
When I have time, I'll try to do some human test in yabot, and then work on your map to get more precise tests with your script.
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On December 30 2010 03:39 Skrag wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2010 03:07 ChickenLips wrote:
33373 views and you feel like noone has seen this? O__o (FYI for a thread that concerns only ~25% of the player base that is a lot)
Just because a lot of people just lurk (especially in threads as technical as this one) doesn't mean they don't appreciate it. Lol. Yeah, that's a lot of views. I stand corrected. The action in the thread just died off a lot after I started posting results, where it was almost always staying near the front page before. :/
Just want to say, the thread is really appreciated. Also, it'll simply become really, really important information going forward. This type of analysis will be useful for years (unless they change something about the opening of Zerg in a patch/expansion), so it's very, very much appreciated.
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Someone wrote that the 14 pool is ahead of the 11 pool in larvae? Maybe its just that I always make a queen asap, which puts the 11 pool 30 seconds ahead on the queen, but that makes my 11 pool come ahead of the 14 pool larvae wise. When I 18 pool, its with the queen included. Not just 18 drones.
Whether its economic, I do not know, but it has certainly made countering cheese seem easy. There was a thread about the 11 overpool vs the 14 pool where we went into the economics of it. And that went into the economics of 11 pool FE and 14 pool FE, but the earlier queen with the 11 pool makes it have more drones after 4:30 in the game if I remember correctly.
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EPT
