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Pushing The Limits of Zerg Economy Builds

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
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jacobman
Profile Joined December 2010
217 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-15 18:56:31
December 05 2010 10:00 GMT
#1
I'm hoping that tl can help figure out what defend-able zerg build is the most economic.

There has been a lot of talk about economic zerg builds lately, and I made this post because I'm the type of player that prefers to try to find ways to make the most economic builds defend-able.

I am aware of this thread, which did some good work.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172481

The thread is really behind as far as the it goes for actually finding the build which can lead to the most economy since all effort in the thread essentially moved to the 11 pool 18 hatch build. It also never tries to address which builds are actually playable, by trying to play them, besides the 11 pool obviously.

This is not a thread for the super early pool builds that have gotten a lot of discussion recently. Although there are some very good builds in that category, there is currently plenty of discussion on those builds on separate threads. I am however including some data on those builds just for reference and so that people don't wonder why they're not included.

Here is the way that a build will be judged in defendability and economy.

For defendability the build simply needs to be played on the ladder. I'm looking for good replays, preferably of the build holding off types of early pressure. I think this is the best way to get evidence for or against a builds ability to be defended.

For economy I will be judging the builds by using replays. The build order will be played by the AI. The minerals will be assessed at the 6:20 mark with a maximum of 48 drones being built, which is absolute two base saturation. After 48 drones, only overlords will be made. The average mineral value between the beginning of the 6:20 second and the end of the 6:20 second will used. Larva coming from spawn larva will be prorated based on the percent completion of spawn larva.

Overtime I will do more runs with the AI and average the numbers. There is a small difference of about plus or minus 15 minerals between trials. This is due to the random walk of the larva, which causes drones mining behavior to be slightly different in each trial. All AI tests are done on Xel'Naga Caverns on the bottom left position.

I'm including some results from Skrag too. He is a user who was producing builds run by the AI also. I'm unsure if the AI runs exactly the same as mine, but the same reliability in how the AI executes should be in those results. Therefore the results from Skrag may be easily compared to other results from Skrag.

In addition to this, results for a build order tester will be included. Although, at this point I will only be using the build order tester to find new builds to check. The build order tester has been found to give very unreliable results, which do not always reflect what will happen in the game. However it does give a VERY ballpark estimate for builds. It just can't be used to compare one build to another because it is not accurate enough. The build order tester I'm using is the following:

http://sc2calc.org/build_order/

As evidence for builds is submitted in the comments, I will update this OP so people have a nice place to access lots of information and analysis on different builds. If you are talking about a build please include a detailed description of the build (aka overlord times ect. ).

Build Suggestions

Also, here are some build base suggestions if you want to help gather data but you don't know what you could try.

13H/15P
14H/14P
13P/15H
11P/18H

If you would like to try your own AI testing here are some things that I learned while writing my own script for this purpose.

Brief Scripting Introduction
+ Show Spoiler +

Please do not complain to me about the scripting tutorial. This is my first attempt at any type of tutorial. If you do not find the tutorial helpful, simply ignore it. If you do find the information in this tutorial helpful, I am glad.

Scripting can be done right within the StarCraft II Map Editor. The first thing you will need before you begin scripting an AI to test build orders is a map for the AI to play on. For all of my tests the AI played on the bottom left corner of Xel'Naga Caverns. If you would like to compare your results to what I have found, this would be the best map to use.

After you have opened the map you must create a script. First open up the "Triggers" window. This can be done by going to

Modules > Triggers

You may also press f6 or click on the button at the top of the screen with the two gears on it. It will say Triggers if you hover your cursor over it.

Once you have the triggers screen open you will need to create your main script. You will need to click on the white box on the far left that has the Melee Initialization trigger sitting in it, most likely by itself. Right click in this white box and go to,

New > New Custom Script

You can name this whatever you want. It's not important. This script will run right when the map first loads, and it is the script that will contain all the additional functions that you wish to add to the game. To introduce you to some of the important functions in Galaxy Scripting and to help you create a few important functions of your own, I'm going to go over how to create three functions. Those functions are one which will output the number of units of a certain type that a player has, a function that will tell the computer to expand, and a function that will tell the computer to execute an extractor trick. Below are the walkthroughs for these functions. If you don't know what you're doing at all, I highly suggest you go through them in order.

getUnitCount
+ Show Spoiler +
The first function we will create is the function that outputs the number of a particular unit that a player has. To start making a function you must first declare the function. This starts by declaring what this function will output. Since this particular function is going to be outputting a number, we want to use the header "int". This is simply the type of data that your function is going to output when it runs. If your function does not output data you will use "void". After this header put a space and type in the name that you would like this function to be called by. This can be whatever you want it to be. A good choice might be "getUnitCount". The name cannot have any spaces in it.

The next step in declaring your function is to declare the parameters that the function will take in. The parameters are simply the data that the function will need input in order to do anything. For example if your creating a function that give you the time until a particular time, your function might require the current time to be input. For this function we will be declaring two parameters, which will be the number of the player that we want to run this function for and the name of the type of unit we want to look for. To do this add the following to what you already have, "(int player, String Unit)". string is another type of data that can be used in the header, just like int. A string is just a series of characters, like a word. Basically, it is text. The galaxy editor identifies many things, such as units, by strings. Finally add the start and end of the function, which is simply curly brackets "{}". At this point, you should have the following:

int getUnitCount (int player, string Unit) {}


player and Unit are both variables that this function is going to take in before it runs. Player is a variable of the type int and Unit is a variable of the type Unit. unit may not be used as a name as it is actually a data type just like int and string are. That is why I used Unit instead. Since we have have not put anything within the curly brackets this function does not do anything yet. Also, since we have not output an int as we said we would with the int header, this script will return an error currently. We must now add the body of the script. This will be written within the curly brackets.

The first thing we need to do in any function is to declare the variables that we will be using. We already have access to the variables player and Unit, which will be passed the this function when it is run, but most functions make use of other variables within the function as well. In this case we will only be using one other variable. That variable is a unitgroup. A unit group is a type of variable just like int or string. Do define it, simply type,

unitgroup units;

units is the name of our unitgroup in this example. Notice also that the line is ended with a semicolon. Most lines in scripting must end in a semicolon or they will return an error. At this pint the variable units has no data associated with it and should return an error if called. We must put data in the variable units for it to be used. To do this, on a new line type

units = AIFindUnits(player, Unit, PlayerStartLocation(player), 500, 400);

At this point your script should look like the following:

int getUnitCount(int player,string Unit) {
unitgroup units;
units = AIFindUnits(player, Unit, PlayerStartLocation(player), 500, 400);
}

AIFindUnits is a predefined function of the galaxy editor. It takes in 5 parameters. Three of those paremeters are int, one is a string, and one is a point variable, which we have not seen before. The first parameter, player, is the variable that we put within the parameters of our function declaration. This variable is an int, which is number, and it is the number of the player we want to call the function for. The second parameter of AIFindUnits, Unit, is also a variable that is in the parameters of our function declaration. It is a string, and it is the name that represents the unit we are looking for. The third parameter is a location variable. I have used the start location of the player we want in this case. To get that location variable I used the function, PlayerStartLocation(int PLAYER). I input the int player for its parameter. The next parameter in AIFindUnits is an int. This number, 500, represents the distance from the specified point that AIFindUnits will look for the specified type of unit. This number is large so that it will search the entire map. The last parameter, 400, is also an int. It represents the maximum number of units that this function will count to. I put in 400 since with a supply cap of 200 you may get 400 zerglings. The starcraft II Galaxy editor has many of these predefined functions. Some information about them can be found online

http://wiki.sc2mapster.com/galaxy/main-page/

Okay, so our variable "units" now has been given a value through the use of the function AIFindUnits. The final thing we need to do is to tell the function to output this number, just as we said we would. To do this, on a new line, type

return UnitGroupCount(units, 1);

Your function is now done and should look like the following:

int getUnitCount(int player,string Unit) {
unitgroup units;
units = AIFindUnits(2, Unit, PlayerStartLocation(player), 500, 33);
return UnitGroupCount(units,1);
}

UnitGroupCount is another function. It has parameters of unitgroup and int. We wanted to know how many units were within the unitgroup, units, which contained all the units of the type we declared that were found on the map from the the player we declared. The integer in the parameters is used for special circumstances and for normal use should be 1.

Okay, so now that we have this new function, lets test it out. In order to do this we're gong to add a very small script to the Melee Initialization trigger. Start by clicking on the icon that looks like a piece of paper and says Melee Initialization. On the right you should see a box that has Events, Actions, Conditions, ect. Right click in this box and go to

New > New Action

This will bring up a box with all the different option that you all. We're going to need the one called "custom script". Click this option and then press okay. This will create the new action. If the custom script action is not the last action in the list, click and drag the action to the end of the list. The map is going to run each of these actions in the order that you see them. After this is done click on the new action you created, custom script.

You will see a white box below this. Click in this box and you should see your cursor now. Type the following:

getUnitCount(2, "Drone");


We have just called the function we created earlier. The first parameter is the number of the player we will be looking at, which in this case is player2. The second parameter is the name of the unit that we wish to look for, which is "Drone". Every unit has it's own name, and some are more intuitive than others. The name for drone is really easy, it's Drone.

Calling this function by itself will not be very interesting. To actually be able to see that our function is working we are going to add one more line to this custom script. On the next line type,

UIDisplayMessage(PlayerGroupAll(), c_messageAreaSubtitle, StringExternal(IntToString(INTEGER!!!));

This will display a message on the screen at the beginning on the name. In order to get it to display the number or drones that player 2 has at the beginning of the game take the function from the first line and copy and paste that function over the part that says "INTEGER!!!" . This will convert the number we get out of the getUnitCount function to a string, which will be displayed on the screen when we start the game. This script should now look like the following:

UIDisplayMessage(PlayerGroupAll(), c_messageAreaSubtitle, StringExternal(IntToString(getUnitCount(2,"Drone")));


Now that we have declared and called the getUnitCount function; lets test it. To do this simply go to

File > Test Document

Alternatively you can press Ctrl + F9. When the map loads and begins you should see the number of drones that player 2 has display at the bottom. That number should be 6 since the game just started. If the number is not 6, go back and check your script to make sure that it's exactly as shown above. If the game does not start and you instead get an error, do the same thing. In this case, also double check that you have included a player 2 and that that player 2 is a computer. Also double check that the action to start the AI was included in the Melee Initialization trigger since computer players whose AI has not been started cannot use AI script functions.


The walkthroughs for the other two functions will be coming in the next couple days.


Data


Economic Data So Far
+ Show Spoiler +

All the builds with AI testing have been run five times. The result shown is the average of those five tests.

13 Hatch 15 Pool
+ Show Spoiler +
AI Test

Minerals: 5332.5
Larva: 57.16

Pool Finish: 3:41
Hatch Finish: 3:33

Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +
# Startup Build Delay Time = 3 seconds
9 Overlord
13 Hatchery then transfer 2 Drones (21 seconds lost)
15 Spawning Pool
17 Overlord
18 Queen then constant spawn larvae
20 Queen
26 Overlord
28 Overlord
39 Overlord

Extras
+ Show Spoiler +
Replay Example
[image loading]


14 Hatch 15 Pool
+ Show Spoiler +
AI Test

Minerals: 5324.5
Larva: 57.9

Pool Finish: 3:40
Hatch Finish: 3:39

Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +
# Startup Build Delay Time = 3 seconds
9 Overlord
14 Hatchery then transfer 2 Drones (21 seconds lost)
15 Spawning Pool
17 Overlord
19 Queen
21 Queen
26 Overlord
28 spawn larvae
29 spawn larvae
30 Overlord
30 Overlord
37 spawn larvae
40 spawn larvae

Extras
+ Show Spoiler +
Build Order Tester
+ Show Spoiler +
5,041 minerals at 6:19

Pool Finish: 3:30
Hatch Finish: 3:33

Skrag Results
+ Show Spoiler +
0:00 report: 0 0 6 10 6 6.00 0 0
0:10 report: 30 0 7 10 6 6.58 2 0
0:20 report: 70 0 8 10 7 7.38 2 0
0:30 report: 120 0 9 10 7 8.19 2 0
0:40 report: 180 0 9 10 8 8.81 2 0
0:50 report: 230 0 9 10 9 9.00 2 0
1:00 report: 300 0 10 10 9 9.45 2 0
1:10 report: 365 0 12 18 10 10.05 0 0
1:20 report: 430 0 13 18 10 11.49 0 0
1:30 report: 505 0 13 18 12 12.85 1 0
1:40 report: 590 0 14 18 13 13.54 0 0
1:50 report: 680 0 14 18 14 14.00 1 0
2:00 report: 775 0 13 18 13 13.00 2 0
2:10 report: 865 0 15 18 13 13.60 0 0
2:20 report: 960 0 15 18 14 14.72 1 0
2:30 report: 1055 0 14 18 14 14.00 2 0
2:40 report: 1155 0 16 18 14 14.47 0 0
2:50 report: 1260 0 17 18 14 15.94 0 0
3:00 report: 1370 0 17 18 16 16.88 1 0
3:10 report: 1475 0 17 18 17 17.00 0 0
3:20 report: 1600 0 18 18 17 17.25 0 0
3:30 report: 1720 0 18 26 17 17.83 1 0
3:40 report: 1830 0 24 28 18 18.64 0 0
3:50 report: 1950 0 25 28 19 19.92 0 0
4:00 report: 2080 0 26 28 20 21.26 1 0
4:10 report: 2215 0 27 28 22 22.12 0 0
4:20 report: 2355 0 28 28 22 23.00 0 0
4:30 report: 2505 0 29 36 23 24.13 1 5.4375
4:40 report: 2670 0 30 36 24 25.36 0 25.4375
4:50 report: 2825 0 30 36 26 26.00 0 45.4375
5:00 report: 2995 0 31 36 26 26.40 1 65.4375
5:10 report: 3170 0 37 44 26 28.14 4 0
5:20 report: 3365 0 42 52 28 33.74 0 16
5:30 report: 3525 0 43 52 37 38.08 0 36
5:40 report: 3740 0 44 52 38 38.93 0 56
5:50 report: 3955 0 45 52 39 39.80 0 76
6:00 report: 4200 0 54 60 40 43.68 0 7.5625

Started Hatchery at 117.813
Started Spawning Pool at 149.313
Finished Spawning Pool at 214.313
Finished Hatchery at 217.75

Replay Example
[image loading]


15 Hatch 15 Pool
+ Show Spoiler +
AI Test

Minerals: 5318
Larva: 57.78

Pool Finish: 3:38
Hatch Finish: 3:45

Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +
# Startup Build Delay Time = 3 seconds
9 Overlord
15 Hatchery then transfer 2 Drones (21 seconds lost)
14 Spawning Pool
17 Overlord
18 Queen then constant spawn larvae
21 Queen
25 Overlord
30 Overlord
37 Overlord
51 Drone

Extras
+ Show Spoiler +
Build Order Tester
+ Show Spoiler +
4,892.2 minerals at 6:19

Pool Finish: 3:24
Hatch Finish: 3:38


Replay Example
[image loading]


14 Hatch 14 Pool
+ Show Spoiler +
AI Test

Minerals: 5298
Larva: 59.2

Pool Finish: 3:34
Hatch Finish: 3:40

Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +
# Startup Build Delay = 3 Seconds
9 Overlord
14 Hatchery
14 Spawning Pool
16 Overlord
16 Queen then constant spawn larvae
21 Queen
23 Overlord
27 Overlord
31 Overlord
51 Drone

Extras
+ Show Spoiler +
Build Order Tester
+ Show Spoiler +
4,809 minerals at 6:19

Pool Finish: 3:26
Hatch Finish: 3:34

Skrag Results
+ Show Spoiler +
0:00 report: 0 0 6 10 6 6.00 0 0
0:10 report: 30 0 7 10 6 6.58 2 0
0:20 report: 70 0 8 10 7 7.38 2 0
0:30 report: 120 0 9 10 7 8.19 2 0
0:40 report: 180 0 9 10 8 8.81 2 0
0:50 report: 230 0 9 10 9 9.00 2 0
1:00 report: 300 0 10 10 9 9.45 2 0
1:10 report: 365 0 12 18 10 10.05 0 0
1:20 report: 430 0 13 18 10 11.49 0 0
1:30 report: 505 0 13 18 12 12.85 1 0
1:40 report: 590 0 14 18 13 13.54 0 0
1:50 report: 680 0 14 18 14 14.00 1 0
2:00 report: 775 0 13 18 13 13.00 2 0
2:10 report: 865 0 14 18 13 13.47 1 0
2:20 report: 960 0 14 18 14 14.00 2 0
2:30 report: 1050 0 14 18 13 13.04 2 0
2:40 report: 1145 0 15 18 13 13.98 1 0
2:50 report: 1240 0 17 18 14 15.75 0 0
3:00 report: 1350 0 17 18 16 16.83 1 0
3:10 report: 1460 0 17 18 17 17.00 0 0
3:20 report: 1575 0 18 18 17 17.24 0 0
3:30 report: 1700 0 20 26 17 17.83 1 0
3:40 report: 1810 0 24 28 18 18.62 0 0
3:50 report: 1930 0 25 28 19 19.95 0 0
4:00 report: 2055 0 26 28 20 21.27 1 0
4:10 report: 2205 0 27 28 21 22.07 0 0
4:20 report: 2330 0 28 28 22 22.94 0 1
4:30 report: 2490 0 29 36 23 24.12 1 12
4:40 report: 2650 0 30 36 24 25.42 0 32
4:50 report: 2805 0 30 36 26 26.00 0 52
5:00 report: 2975 0 31 36 26 26.43 3 31
5:10 report: 3150 0 36 44 27 29.11 3 6.5625
5:20 report: 3340 0 41 52 31 33.91 0 22.5625
5:30 report: 3510 0 42 52 36 37.07 0 42.5625
5:40 report: 3730 0 43 52 37 38.35 1 62.5625
5:50 report: 3955 0 48 52 39 40.13 0 38.125
6:00 report: 4175 0 52 52 39 44.00 1 14.125

Started Hatchery at 117.813
Started Spawning Pool at 143.938
Finished Spawning Pool at 208.875
Finished Hatchery at 217.75

Replay Example
[image loading]


12 Hatch 14 Pool
+ Show Spoiler +
AI Test

Minerals: 5237
Larva: 57.76

Pool Finish: 3:39
Hatch Finish: 3:29

Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +
# Startup Build Delay Time = 3 seconds
9 Overlord
12 Hatchery
14 Spawning Pool
17 Overlord
19 Queen then constant spawn larvae
21 Queen
26 Overlord
30 Overlord
30 Overlord

Extras
+ Show Spoiler +
Replay Example
[image loading]


13 Pool 15 Hatch
+ Show Spoiler +
AI Test

Minerals: 5232.5
Larva: 59.78

Pool Finish: 2:50
Hatch Finish: 4:13

Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +
# Startup Build Delay = 3 Seconds
9 Overlord
13 Spawning Pool
15 Hatchery, then transfer 3 drones (19 seconds lost)
14 Queen
17 Overlord
21 Spawn Larvae
21 Queen
23 Overlord
30 Spawn Larvae
31 Spawn Larvae
31 Overlord
38 Spawn Larvae
44 Spawn Larvae
44 Overlord

Extras
+ Show Spoiler +
Skrag Results
+ Show Spoiler +
0:00 report: 0 0 6 10 6 6.00 0 0
0:10 report: 30 0 7 10 6 6.58 2 0
0:20 report: 70 0 8 10 7 7.38 2 0
0:30 report: 120 0 9 10 7 8.19 2 0
0:40 report: 180 0 9 10 8 8.81 2 0
0:50 report: 230 0 9 10 9 9.00 2 0
1:00 report: 300 0 10 10 9 9.45 2 0
1:10 report: 365 0 12 18 10 10.05 0 0
1:20 report: 430 0 13 18 10 11.49 0 0
1:30 report: 505 0 13 18 12 12.85 1 0
1:40 report: 590 0 13 18 13 13.00 1 0
1:50 report: 675 0 13 18 12 12.25 1 0
2:00 report: 765 0 14 18 12 13.32 1 0
2:10 report: 850 0 15 18 14 14.58 0 0
2:20 report: 950 0 15 18 15 15.00 1 0
2:30 report: 1050 0 15 18 15 15.00 2 0
2:40 report: 1145 0 14 18 14 14.00 2 0
2:50 report: 1250 0 17 18 14 14.04 2 0
3:00 report: 1355 0 17 18 14 14.63 1 0
3:10 report: 1450 0 18 18 15 15.35 1 0
3:20 report: 1565 0 18 18 15 15.93 2 0
3:30 report: 1670 0 20 26 16 16.60 0 0
3:40 report: 1785 0 23 26 16 18.10 0 3.5625
3:50 report: 1900 0 23 26 18 18.91 0 13.5625
4:00 report: 2020 0 23 26 19 19.00 0 23.5625
4:10 report: 2135 0 24 26 19 19.32 0 33.5625
4:20 report: 2255 0 29 36 19 20.73 0 0
4:30 report: 2375 0 31 36 21 24.42 0 12.375
4:40 report: 2515 0 31 36 26 26.84 0 32.375
4:50 report: 2645 0 32 36 27 27.54 0 52.375
5:00 report: 2815 0 34 36 28 28.78 0 72.375
5:10 report: 2995 0 42 44 29 31.81 0 4.625
5:20 report: 3180 0 43 44 32 37.14 0 22.9375
5:30 report: 3385 0 44 44 39 39.41 1 42.9375
5:40 report: 3620 0 46 52 39 40.47 0 62.9375
5:50 report: 3850 0 51 52 40 42.66 0 38.5
6:00 report: 4095 0 52 52 43 46.29 5 14.5

Started Spawning Pool at 101.25
Started Hatchery at 150.625
Finished Spawning Pool at 166.188
Finished Hatchery at 250.625


Build Order Tester
+ Show Spoiler +
4,954 minerals at 6:19

Pool Finish: 2:42
Hatch Finish: 4:07


Replay Example
[image loading]

11 Pool 18 Hatch
+ Show Spoiler +
AI Test

Minerals: 5153.5
Larva: 57.48

Pool Finish: 2:35
Hatch Finish: 4:35

Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +
# Startup Build Delay = 3 Seconds
10 Extractor trick
11 Overlord
11 Spawning Pool
16 Queen then constant Spawn Larvae
18 Hatchery then transfer 2 Drones (21 seconds lost)
17 Overlord
18 Overlord
21 Queen
28 Overlord
36 Overlord

Extras
+ Show Spoiler +
Skrag Results
+ Show Spoiler +
0:00 report: 0 0 6 10 6 6.00 0 0
0:10 report: 30 0 7 10 6 6.58 2 0
0:20 report: 70 0 8 10 7 7.38 2 0
0:30 report: 120 0 9 10 7 8.19 2 0
0:40 report: 180 0 10 10 8 9.17 1 0
0:50 report: 230 0 11 10 9 10.06 1 0
1:00 report: 300 0 11 10 10 10.70 2 0
1:10 report: 375 0 11 10 11 11.00 1 0
1:20 report: 450 0 11 10 11 11.00 2 0
1:30 report: 530 0 10 18 10 10.00 3 0
1:40 report: 605 0 11 18 10 10.33 2 0
1:50 report: 670 0 13 18 10 11.60 1 0
2:00 report: 755 0 14 18 12 13.08 0 0
2:10 report: 835 0 15 18 13 14.26 0 0
2:20 report: 925 0 16 18 14 14.92 0 0
2:30 report: 1035 0 16 18 15 15.60 0 0
2:40 report: 1145 0 18 18 16 16.00 1 0
2:50 report: 1245 0 18 18 16 16.00 2 0
3:00 report: 1345 0 17 18 15 15.00 2 0
3:10 report: 1455 0 18 18 15 15.21 1 0
3:20 report: 1555 0 18 18 15 15.80 2 0
3:30 report: 1665 0 20 26 16 16.47 0 6.625
3:40 report: 1770 0 22 26 16 17.65 0 16.625
3:50 report: 1885 0 23 26 18 18.04 0 26.625
4:00 report: 2000 0 23 26 18 18.63 0 36.625
4:10 report: 2125 0 27 34 19 19.98 0 2.625
4:20 report: 2240 0 27 34 19 22.33 0 12.625
4:30 report: 2370 0 28 34 23 23.55 0 22.625
4:40 report: 2490 0 30 36 24 24.69 0 32.625
4:50 report: 2650 0 32 36 25 25.89 2 2.1875
5:00 report: 2790 0 35 36 26 28.78 0 20.375
5:10 report: 2975 0 36 36 30 31.43 0 40.375
5:20 report: 3135 0 37 44 32 32.17 0 60.375
5:30 report: 3325 0 39 44 32 33.18 3 39.375
5:40 report: 3545 0 48 52 34 38.20 0 14.9375
5:50 report: 3740 0 49 52 39 43.47 0 34.9375
6:00 report: 3975 0 50 52 44 44.99 0 54.9375

Started Spawning Pool at 87.6875
Finished Spawning Pool at 152.625
Started Hatchery at 172.063
Finished Hatchery at 272.063


Build Order Tester
+ Show Spoiler +
4,813 minerals at 6:19

Pool Finish: 2:29
Hatch Finish: 4:27


Replay Example
[image loading]



Other Builds
+ Show Spoiler +
14 Pool 16 Hatch
+ Show Spoiler +
AI Test

Minerals: 5190
Larva: 57.54

Pool Finish: 2:54
Hatch Finish: 4:17

Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +
# Startup Build Delay = 3 Seconds
9 Overlord
14 Spawning Pool
16 Hatchery then transfer 3 drones (19 seconds lost)
15 Queen then constant spawn larvae
17 Overlord
20 Overlord
20 Queen
32 Overlord
40 Overlord

Extras
+ Show Spoiler +
Build Order Tester
+ Show Spoiler +
4,946 minerals at 6:19

Pool Finish: 2:48
Hatch Finish: 4:10


Replay Example
[image loading]


12 Pool 18 Hatch
+ Show Spoiler +
AI tests yet to be done.

Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +
# Startup Build Delay = 3 Seconds
9 Overlord
12 Spawning Pool
16 Queen
18 Hatchery then transfer 6 drones (17 seconds lost)
17 Drone
18 Extractor Trick
19 Overlord
19 Spawn Larvae
19 Queen
23 Overlord
27 Overlord
27 Spawn Larvae
28 Spawn Larvae
31 Overlord
35 Spawn Larvae
37 Spawn Larvae

16 Hatch 15 Pool
+ Show Spoiler +
AI Test

Minerals: 5259.5
Larva: 55.8

Pool Finish: 3:36
Hatch Finish: 3:56

Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +
# Startup Build Delay Time = 3 seconds
9 Overlord
16 Hatchery then transfer 2 drones (21 seconds lost)
15 Spawning Pool
17 Overlord
19 Queen then spawn larvae
23 Queen then spawn larvae
25 Overlord
31 Overlord
36 spawn larvae
38 Overlord
42 spawn larvae

Extras
+ Show Spoiler +
Build Order Tester
+ Show Spoiler +
4,996 minerals at 6:19

Pool Finish: 3:28
Hatch Finish: 3:43


Replay Example
[image loading]


15 Pool 16 Hatch
+ Show Spoiler +
AI Test

Minerals: 5231.5
Larva: 58.34

Pool Finish: 2:59
Hatch Finish: 4:15

Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +
# Startup Build Delay = 3 Seconds
9 Overlord
15 Spawning Pool
16 Hatchery then transfer 3 Drones (19 seconds lost)
15 Overlord
16 Queen, then constant Spawn Larvae
21 Queen, then constant Spawn Larvae
23 Overlord
33 Overlord
33 Overlord

Extras
+ Show Spoiler +
Build Order Tester
+ Show Spoiler +
4,890 minerals at 6:19

Pool Finish: 2:53
Hatch Finish: 4:10


Replay Example
[image loading]


14 Hatch 13 Pool
+ Show Spoiler +
AI Test

Minerals: 5230
Larva: 58.2

Pool Finish: 3:27
Hatch Finish: 3:41

Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +
# Startup Build Delay = 3 Seconds
9 Overlord
14 Hatchery
13 Spawning Pool
16 Overlord
16 Queen then constant spawn larvae
21 Queen
23 Overlord
27 Overlord
37 Overlord
51 Drone

Extras
+ Show Spoiler +
Build Order Tester
+ Show Spoiler +
4,816.8 minerals at 6:19

Pool Finish: 3:21
Hatch Finish: 3:34


Replay Example
[image loading]





Current Best Replays
+ Show Spoiler +

Feel free to submit any replays of a build you use that you believe to be top tier economically. More replays are needed. I know not every zerg player uses the 11 pool build. It would be nice to get some replays of other builds that are being used.

11 Pool 18 Hatch
+ Show Spoiler +
If you want more replays for this build there is a very large thread devoted to this build that contains more than just these two replays.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=173430

Replays

7RR defended

2 Rax Marine All In





Conclusions
+ Show Spoiler +
More data collection is still under way. The builds have each had 5 runs and the results are the average of those 5 runs.

So far for the economic analysis the best Hatch first build is the 13H/15P. The best pool first build is the 13P/15H. The 11P/18H also may deserve to be added because it gets the pool earlier. This conclusion says nothing about how the builds will operate when intricate timings between two builds that exist in the actual game coming into play. Although, it is definitely a good place to start from if you want to test those things.

[image loading]
blackodd
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden451 Posts
December 05 2010 10:01 GMT
#2
We've already done that, enjoy

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172481
For I am the Queen of Blades. And none shall ever dispute my rule, again...
jacobman
Profile Joined December 2010
217 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-05 10:06:57
December 05 2010 10:06 GMT
#3
On December 05 2010 19:01 ayadew wrote:
We've already done that, enjoy

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=172481


That thread essentially stopped updating a while ago. All focus moved to the 11 pool. I've found builds better economically than the leading build in that post. Also, I've come to the conclusion that the method used to look at the economy, replays, is too unreliable. It's just too hard to get any replay to be perfect. Like I said in the post, imperceptible differences in the play of the build led to totally different numbers, making it near impossible to figure out how good a build actually is.

Also, I want to try testing builds in actual games in addition to this to figure out which builds are actually viable. I'm hoping some people can figure out ways to pull of some builds that appear really risky at first.

dementrio
Profile Joined November 2010
678 Posts
December 05 2010 11:09 GMT
#4
I think you, and the thread on zerg econ/11overpool are looking at this in the wrong way.
If hatch first is economically better, even by a small margin, there is no reason not to go hatch first _if your goal is only econ_ (fool saturation on 2 bases).
If the problem is that hatch first is too vulnerable, your goal is not econ.

going pool first is obviously safer, but if you are testing only for econ you are not going to find the build you want. You want a build that can fend off early aggression and have the better econ after that. This means you have to put lings, spines and/or gas in your goals.

take the 11overpool build, which wants a hatch on 18/18. I think that is the weakest part of it, because if for some reason you cant or dont want to put that hatch down you are supply blocked. You can obviously build an overlord and say take gas and a roach warren instead, but a build that accounts for that is going to be more efficient when you want a pair of lings around that time, and it probably has a different pool timing.

I think what we need to do is break down types of aggression from different races and see what units (not drones) we typically want against toss/terran/zerg and try to find the optimal build for that. E.g. I suspect that against toss, if you can prevent/hold the cannon rush with only drones, hatch first is going to be the best build. Against terran if it turns out you need banelings to hold the marine+scv rush you have to go for a relatively late hatch to get all that tech out first, etc.

Just setting pool first as a restriction and then making only drones kind of defeats the purpose of a pool first build, and the optimal build for pool + drones is gonna be different from the optimal build for pool + units and tech (which can be reverted back to drones if not under pressure).
jacobman
Profile Joined December 2010
217 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-05 11:19:50
December 05 2010 11:18 GMT
#5
On December 05 2010 20:09 dementrio wrote:
I think you, and the thread on zerg econ/11overpool are looking at this in the wrong way.
If hatch first is economically better, even by a small margin, there is no reason not to go hatch first _if your goal is only econ_ (fool saturation on 2 bases).
If the problem is that hatch first is too vulnerable, your goal is not econ.

going pool first is obviously safer, but if you are testing only for econ you are not going to find the build you want. You want a build that can fend off early aggression and have the better econ after that. This means you have to put lings, spines and/or gas in your goals.

take the 11overpool build, which wants a hatch on 18/18. I think that is the weakest part of it, because if for some reason you cant or dont want to put that hatch down you are supply blocked. You can obviously build an overlord and say take gas and a roach warren instead, but a build that accounts for that is going to be more efficient when you want a pair of lings around that time, and it probably has a different pool timing.

I think what we need to do is break down types of aggression from different races and see what units (not drones) we typically want against toss/terran/zerg and try to find the optimal build for that. E.g. I suspect that against toss, if you can prevent/hold the cannon rush with only drones, hatch first is going to be the best build. Against terran if it turns out you need banelings to hold the marine+scv rush you have to go for a relatively late hatch to get all that tech out first, etc.

Just setting pool first as a restriction and then making only drones kind of defeats the purpose of a pool first build, and the optimal build for pool + drones is gonna be different from the optimal build for pool + units and tech (which can be reverted back to drones if not under pressure).


I would agree that it would be better to go hatch first every time if it was the best economic choice AND you could manage to defend it. The only builds I want to exclude are the ones where you will just get owned if you try the build and someone else does a particular thing. Some builds might just be too slow to defend certain types of early aggression. To find out you just need to play.

As far as it goes with adding in lings and such I don't think it's necessary for economy analysis. Take adding a ling pair for example. They are both set back by 50 minerals and one larva cycle. Adding things to builds at certain times interrupts the builds. The build with the better economic potential is still going to be ahead at that point. Obviously there are some nuances, but in general as long as you add the same thing to both builds at the same time, the one that would have performed better before will still perform better with the change. The only time where this is not the case is in the very very beginning of the build when you're income is low, and that's exactly the time that I'm most concerned about seeing game replays for.
roadrunner343
Profile Joined November 2010
148 Posts
December 05 2010 11:38 GMT
#6
I think the other thread would be much more suitable for this post, in all honesty. The only reason that thread moved primarily towards the 11pool/18hatch build was not because it was best, it was because myself and a few others decided to test it extensively, posting our replays and findings. I think if you would do the same thing on other builds, the focus would shift off the Lomilar build. Besides, I've nothing more to ersearch, it's merit has already been proven to me. I think consolidating all these economy build threads into one would be more beneficial (I.E. Putting an end to the zerg economy debate thread...)
jacobman
Profile Joined December 2010
217 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-05 11:46:10
December 05 2010 11:44 GMT
#7
On December 05 2010 20:38 roadrunner343 wrote:
I think the other thread would be much more suitable for this post, in all honesty. The only reason that thread moved primarily towards the 11pool/18hatch build was not because it was best, it was because myself and a few others decided to test it extensively, posting our replays and findings. I think if you would do the same thing on other builds, the focus would shift off the Lomilar build. Besides, I've nothing more to ersearch, it's merit has already been proven to me. I think consolidating all these economy build threads into one would be more beneficial (I.E. Putting an end to the zerg economy debate thread...)


eh, I made this one because the Putting an end to the zerg economy debate thread stopped updating. Also, I now disagree with the method used to judge economy. Replays are too fickle with their results. That makes this a totally different approach. The data in that thread isn't really too informative here and since the thread didn't really have a replay component, I can't get those from there either.

I do think I will hunt down some of the replays in the other threads and post them in here eventually. Almost all of them are of the 11 pool 18 hatch though. I'm not sure if I want to bring those here because there is already enough discussion about that pool in its own post.
dementrio
Profile Joined November 2010
678 Posts
December 05 2010 11:49 GMT
#8
On December 05 2010 20:18 jacobman wrote:
As far as it goes with adding in lings and such I don't think it's necessary for economy analysis.


I think it is. take 11pool vs 13 or 14 pool. the 11pool gives you a faster queen which is going to help if you only make drones, evening out the econ. but if you need a few lings early, say around 16 supply, the later pool is going to be economically better because you will have more drones mining when those lings are being made. cutting drones early has a big impact on your economy.

If you tell the evo chamber software that you want to only make drones it will tell you to do 10pool 12 queen. However if you tell it that you want the same amount of drones AND a few lings, it will tell you to do 13pool. I have not tested this thoroughly but I think that with the larva system of choosing between units/drones even a measly amount of early units is going to impact your econ enough to swing the effectiveness of different BOs.
k43r
Profile Joined September 2010
Poland112 Posts
December 05 2010 11:51 GMT
#9
Let's make competiton: Who will mine the most minerals by 3:00, 4:00, 5:00, 6:00, 7:00?
Also incude time of first pair_of_zerglings can be made, and when does hatch finishes for creep spreed.
Lubisz to,suko!
roadrunner343
Profile Joined November 2010
148 Posts
December 05 2010 11:51 GMT
#10
Jacobman,

Pardon my post. I forgot you wanted to use a different testing method, so this makes sense.
dementrio
Profile Joined November 2010
678 Posts
December 05 2010 11:57 GMT
#11
also consider that if you need early tech (warren or nest), with the early pool (and queen) you will have to save up resources to put that down while you have larva stockpiling (and less drones mining); with a later pool you are larva-starved until your injects kick in and its going to be more efficient. I just dont think that testing for only drones is going to give you the best BO for when you need units.
jacobman
Profile Joined December 2010
217 Posts
December 05 2010 12:01 GMT
#12
On December 05 2010 20:51 k43r wrote:
Let's make competiton: Who will mine the most minerals by 3:00, 4:00, 5:00, 6:00, 7:00?
Also incude time of first pair_of_zerglings can be made, and when does hatch finishes for creep spreed.


I would absolutely do this if it weren't for some limitations. It's really cumbersome to figure out the minerals mined at many points in time with the build order testers, and trying to do it in game is too unreliable. That's why I chose just one check after the economy is saturated.

This is the build order tester I'm using right now.

http://sc2calc.org/build_order/

If you know of one that is more user friendly that would allow for the six time test you suggested, let me know, because I would love to have even more detailed data.
jacobman
Profile Joined December 2010
217 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-05 12:06:46
December 05 2010 12:03 GMT
#13
On December 05 2010 20:57 dementrio wrote:
also consider that if you need early tech (warren or nest), with the early pool (and queen) you will have to save up resources to put that down while you have larva stockpiling (and less drones mining); with a later pool you are larva-starved until your injects kick in and its going to be more efficient. I just dont think that testing for only drones is going to give you the best BO for when you need units.


I mentioned it before, but I really want to rely on game testing to figure out what early game issues a build has. The economy analysis is simply to figure out what is possible. The game tests should help determine if early game pressure will derail the build enough to ruin it.

Also if you're suggesting a build that plans on getting something particular unusually early, like a roach warren or upgrade, then that must be put into the build. The way I play I usually wait until excess income starts piling up to start those types of things. This is usually in the low twenty supply for any build and that is around the time when I have good scouting info on what the opponent is doing.
Schnullerbacke13
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1199 Posts
December 05 2010 12:09 GMT
#14
i think you should introduce a key of real world economy to rate the builds:

Risk / reward

This means: compare the eco improvement of a build with the risk to loose against early pressure. from the numbers posted recently here, i'd say 11 pool is superior, as it is much safer with a very little price in eco. however i agree with op, that even doing minor delays in executing a build makes a huge difference later on, so basically for us amateurs the best investment would be to train executing an 11 pool perfectly. another interesting category to judge a build is the ease of executing the build while being distracted/under opponent pressure. even an extractor trick introduces a (minor) potential of errors (misclick, distraction, delay).
21 is half the truth
dementrio
Profile Joined November 2010
678 Posts
December 05 2010 12:11 GMT
#15
On December 05 2010 21:03 jacobman wrote:
I mentioned it before, but I really want to rely on game testing to figure out what early game issues a build has. The economy analysis is simply to figure out what is possible. The game tests should help determine if early game pressure will derail the build enough to ruin it.


this is very hard to do, because any pool-first build can easily defend early pressure but it is not clear how that leaves you economically after that, since to fend off the pressure you had to deviate from the pure economy goal that the build was tested for. I know that if I can survive early with hatch first I feel I get in the midgame in a much stronger position than with a pool-first build after early aggression.
barrykp
Profile Joined August 2010
Ireland174 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-05 12:27:55
December 05 2010 12:25 GMT
#16
The other thread was much better than this effort. Much more information, and I prefer that it was done using replays of real people playing, rather than a program who's performance is not reflected in real play.

Also the most interesting question, the viability of the 11 pool 18 hatch build is not in this thread.

As far as it goes with adding in lings and such I don't think it's necessary for economy analysis. Take adding a ling pair for example. They are both set back by 50 minerals and one larva cycle.
I don't think this is correct. For example, the strength of the 11 pool build is that it generates more larva than the others. I don't know if this means it would be more or less affected by having to make lings (I would think less so?) but if you are going to address the question of defensibility then you need to tackle this question more directly.
Lecture me some more on how to play please; I need help.
jacobman
Profile Joined December 2010
217 Posts
December 05 2010 12:27 GMT
#17
On December 05 2010 21:11 dementrio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 05 2010 21:03 jacobman wrote:
I mentioned it before, but I really want to rely on game testing to figure out what early game issues a build has. The economy analysis is simply to figure out what is possible. The game tests should help determine if early game pressure will derail the build enough to ruin it.


this is very hard to do, because any pool-first build can easily defend early pressure but it is not clear how that leaves you economically after that, since to fend off the pressure you had to deviate from the pure economy goal that the build was tested for. I know that if I can survive early with hatch first I feel I get in the midgame in a much stronger position than with a pool-first build after early aggression.


It is a bit hard. I think the only way you can tease out the early game nuances of a build though is to play it and see what happens. As far as the deviation is concerned, if you have to deviate somewhat early, both builds will be hit by that. Any real issues caused by this should be fairly apparent in the replay, otherwise both builds should be delayed by approximately the same amount.
dementrio
Profile Joined November 2010
678 Posts
December 05 2010 12:28 GMT
#18
the 11pool sacrifices a bit of early econ to get more larva. if those larva are going to become drones it comes out ahead, but if you need units or tech you are economically behind a later pool. and if you don't need units you are still economically behind a hatch first build.
jacobman
Profile Joined December 2010
217 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-05 13:08:36
December 05 2010 12:31 GMT
#19
On December 05 2010 21:25 barrykp wrote:
The other thread was much better than this effort. Much more information, and I prefer that it was done using replays of real people playing, rather than a program who's performance is not reflected in real play.

Also the most interesting question, the viability of the 11 pool 18 hatch build is not in this thread.

Show nested quote +
As far as it goes with adding in lings and such I don't think it's necessary for economy analysis. Take adding a ling pair for example. They are both set back by 50 minerals and one larva cycle.
I don't think this is correct. For example, the strength of the 11 pool build is that it generates more larva than the others. I don't know if this means it would be more or less affected by having to make lings (I would think less so?) but if you are going to address the question of defensibility then you need to tackle this question more directly.


The 11 pool 18 hatch is not in this thread because it has enough coverage already. It is being thoroughly tested on this post.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=173430

I can add it here I suppose, but I risk that build overshadowing anyone looking into other builds advantages and disadvantages then, while that build already has good analysis.

As far as replays go, the replays are even less reliable for any given persons "real play". The replays vary so much from person to person and trial to trial that they become nearly useless in comparing builds.

An example is the 14 Hatch 15 Pool. I have at least 3 replays of different builds which perform better than the replay that is posted for the 14 Hatch 15 Pool. These weren't small differences either. We're talking about a 100 mineral difference for at least one of them. However, as much as it pains me to say this, when I put the 14 Hatch 15 Pool build into the build tester, it actually came out ahead of the other builds even though it was significantly behind those builds in the replay.

Another example is the 11 Pool 18 Hatch. If you read some of the thread you will see that there was a point where I brought up the 13 Pool 15 Hatch build as a possible alternative. After tons of redoing replays for that build people finally managed to eek out enough minerals to match the replay of the 13 Pool 15 Hatch that I provided. They had to make about a 100 minerals gain in this situation too to catch up. When put into the build tester it says that the 13 Pool 15 Hatch build actually ahead minerals a small amount and that it isn't quite 3 larva behind. While it wasn't ahead by an astronomical amount, my point is that none of this is even close to obvious by looking through all the replays that were made. Replays just vary too much to be able to use them to compare builds.
jacobman
Profile Joined December 2010
217 Posts
December 05 2010 12:54 GMT
#20
On December 05 2010 21:09 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
i think you should introduce a key of real world economy to rate the builds:

Risk / reward

This means: compare the eco improvement of a build with the risk to loose against early pressure. from the numbers posted recently here, i'd say 11 pool is superior, as it is much safer with a very little price in eco. however i agree with op, that even doing minor delays in executing a build makes a huge difference later on, so basically for us amateurs the best investment would be to train executing an 11 pool perfectly. another interesting category to judge a build is the ease of executing the build while being distracted/under opponent pressure. even an extractor trick introduces a (minor) potential of errors (misclick, distraction, delay).


Safety is somewhat an overrated term. Most of the time you can either adequately defend the build from early pressure or you can't. It's usually obvious when the build is failing to defend pushes to the point where it is detrimental. My goal is to find out what build, with the best economic potential, can adequately be defended from all hypothetical forms of pressure.
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