|
First of all, what people doesn't tend to see is that if they're looking for most economical
build they are actually looking for a build that has best production capacity with only sufficient
economy to support it. It is very important to keep that in mind!
The idea behind this 11 pool is sound, but currently it is not optimized.
Pool-first builds rely on early queen to increase larvae production rate, which is in fact higher than hatchery(4/40 larvae per second compared to 1/15).
So logically we should get the queen as fast as possible even sacrificing production at hatchery, building a pool maybe @8-9-10 as queens production is higher than hatchery's? Not exactly!
The sooner we get a queen the later we get a hatchery as we are sacrificing economy for quicker queen. So the best solution must lie somewhere in the middle, a compromise between quicker queen, later hatch & later queen, quicker hatch.
I have a optimized version that i have used some time now.
9 overlord
12 pool (why not 11: because it will not sacrifice production rate by idling larvae)
16 queen
18 hatch
17 drone
18 overlord
18 extractor trick (best time to take gas)
17 drone
second queen as soon as the first queen is ready
I also have compared it to 14 hatch 14 pool double queen build.
They are nearly identical in terms of production capacity. (>1 larvae/drone)
Practically speaking early pool builds will offer more flexibility and you don't have pull off your drones to protect against early harassment as you probably sacrifice a lot more than you gain from going hatch first.
I'll post a replay soon
EDIT: ups a minor error
18 extractor trick (best time to take gas)
17 drone
18 overlord
should be:
18 overlord
18 extractor trick (best time to take gas)
17 drone
EDIT#2:
http://www.upload.ee/files/966083/12pool18hatch.SC2Replay.html
|
On December 05 2010 23:03 scAre wrote:
First of all, what people doesn't tend to see is that if they're looking for most economical
build they are actually looking for a build that has best production capacity with only sufficient
economy to support it. It is very important to keep that in mind!
The idea behind this 11 pool is sound, but currently it is not optimized.
Pool-first builds rely on early queen to increase larvae production rate, which is in fact higher than hatchery(4/40 larvae per second compared to 1/15).
So logically we should get the queen as fast as possible even sacrificing production at hatchery, building a pool maybe @8-9-10 as queens production is higher than hatchery's? Not exactly!
The sooner we get a queen the later we get a hatchery as we are sacrificing economy for quicker queen. So the best solution must lie somewhere in the middle, a compromise between quicker queen, later hatch & later queen, quicker hatch.
I have a optimized version that i have used some time now.
9 overlord
12 pool (why not 11: because it will not sacrifice production rate by idling larvae)
16 queen
18 hatch
17 drone ( best time to build lings if necessary)
18 extractor trick (best time to take gas)
17 drone
18 overlord
second queen as soon as the first queen is ready
I also have compared it to 14 hatch 14 pool double queen build.
They are nearly identical in terms of production capacity. (>1 larvae/drone)
Practically speaking early pool builds will offer more flexibility and you don't have pull off your drones to protect against early harassment as you probably sacrifice a lot more than you gain from going hatch first.
I'll post a replay soon
Thanks, I'll try figuring out what the theoretical optimal economic yield on that should be and I'll add your replay as soon as you post it.
Also of note, it's not totally true what you say about production capacity and economy to support it. Pretty much any extra economy you can get in these builds can be put to use in some way. Most notably the economy affects when you can take your 3rd. In addition to this the economy listed is actually just a translation from total worker time in the build. This means that the better economy builds have more of an opportunity to get gas, which is extremely important to zerg even if you don't use it right away.
|
14/15 gives more minerals than 16/15, interesting.......
|
I think 18 hatch is an awkward timing. versus terran and zerg that's when you'll get the early aggression we are trying to fend off, the hatch is only a liability at that time and we sacrifice econ/tech to get it that early... and if you plan on delaying the hatch if you see bunker rush/banelings at your door, you were better off with a later pool in the first place.
|
On December 05 2010 23:25 dementrio wrote:
I think 18 hatch is an awkward timing. versus terran and zerg that's when you'll get the early aggression we are trying to fend off, the hatch is only a liability at that time and we sacrifice econ/tech to get it that early... and if you plan on delaying the hatch if you see bunker rush/banelings at your door, you were better off with a later pool in the first place.
There is actually a thread for the 11 pool 18 hatch that has a bunch of replays. You can take a look at those and it might help you decide if 18 hatch really is an awkward timing. I'm staying slightly away from that build in this thread just because it's already so well covered.
|
On December 05 2010 23:17 Alpina wrote:
14/15 gives more minerals that 16/15, interesting.......
Yeah, I wasn't expecting that either since I had replays where I was ahead compared to the replays of the 14/15 that were posted. However I've had plenty of experience with replays varying wildly in results from one to the other, so I'm not that surprised.
Although, if you notice something wrong in the build orders that can be fixed or if you notice the program doing anything glitchy that it shouldn't be, definitely mention it to me. If it's the program also mention it on this thread that is dedicated to the build tester:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=159994
|
On December 05 2010 23:03 scAre wrote:
First of all, what people doesn't tend to see is that if they're looking for most economical
build they are actually looking for a build that has best production capacity with only sufficient
economy to support it. It is very important to keep that in mind!
The idea behind this 11 pool is sound, but currently it is not optimized.
Pool-first builds rely on early queen to increase larvae production rate, which is in fact higher than hatchery(4/40 larvae per second compared to 1/15).
So logically we should get the queen as fast as possible even sacrificing production at hatchery, building a pool maybe @8-9-10 as queens production is higher than hatchery's? Not exactly!
The sooner we get a queen the later we get a hatchery as we are sacrificing economy for quicker queen. So the best solution must lie somewhere in the middle, a compromise between quicker queen, later hatch & later queen, quicker hatch.
I have a optimized version that i have used some time now.
9 overlord
12 pool (why not 11: because it will not sacrifice production rate by idling larvae)
16 queen
18 hatch
17 drone ( best time to build lings if necessary)
18 extractor trick (best time to take gas)
17 drone
18 overlord
second queen as soon as the first queen is ready
I also have compared it to 14 hatch 14 pool double queen build.
They are nearly identical in terms of production capacity. (>1 larvae/drone)
Practically speaking early pool builds will offer more flexibility and you don't have pull off your drones to protect against early harassment as you probably sacrifice a lot more than you gain from going hatch first.
I'll post a replay soon
I got the results up for your 12 pool variation of the 18 hatch build. It looks to be about on par with the 11 pool variation. It's kind of to be expected though since it wasn't too big of a change.
EDIT: I saw your edit and I'm a little confused. Are you doing an extractor trick (make extractor, make drone, cancel extractor) or are you actually making an extractor? It's ambiguous from your wording and supply count. An extractor trick should leave you at one higher supply and actually making an extractor is what would leave you with one less supply.
|
In the end of the day, I think all this zerg economy talk is useless unless you're playing against yourself. There's too much things that can happen in a game that can make one build better than another and the 100 extra minerals from this or that wont matter. While its somewhat nice to know which build gets the most minerals out, its pretty pointless and the build thats safest with a nice eco and preferred by the player will be used.
|
As far as replays go, the replays are even less reliable for any given persons "real play". The replays vary so much from person to person and trial to trial that they become nearly useless in comparing builds Yes there is a certain amount of variance in everyone's play and in the maps (for example there is a difference between minerals above the hatchery and minerals below, or to the side), but this means that your purely-theorycrafted approach is even less relevant: the results from the calculator you use (and from Lomilar's build order optimiser) aren't reproducible in-game. Experimentation is an error-strewn process, but it's still a better predictor than just using theory.
|
On December 05 2010 23:47 jacobman wrote:
I got the results up for your 12 pool variation of the 18 hatch build. It looks to be about on par with the 11 pool variation. It's kind of to be expected though since it wasn't too big of a change.
EDIT: I saw your edit and I'm a little confused. Are you doing an extractor trick (make extractor, make drone, cancel extractor) or are you actually making an extractor? It's ambiguous from your wording and supply count. An extractor trick should leave you at one higher supply and actually making an extractor is what would leave you with one less supply.
Well if you like to make it a race then I suppose extractor trick would be more appropriate, as you can pump only drones and overlords, nothing else.
To make it actually a practical build i suggest taking a gas at that timing.
In fact It will work out quite beatifully if you are taking a gas, because there will be at all times 2 drones per mineral, so there will be no oversaturation. Later you can set worker rally points to expansion.
I tried to make a showcase replay but failed due 3 times in a row i got cheesed lol
and had to deviate from my standard.
Simplest way to get the replay is to play with computer.
|
On December 06 2010 01:23 barrykp wrote:Show nested quote +As far as replays go, the replays are even less reliable for any given persons "real play". The replays vary so much from person to person and trial to trial that they become nearly useless in comparing builds Yes there is a certain amount of variance in everyone's play and in the maps (for example there is a difference between minerals above the hatchery and minerals below, or to the side), but this means that your purely-theorycrafted approach is even less relevant: the results from the calculator you use (and from Lomilar's build order optimiser) aren't reproducible in-game. Experimentation is an error-strewn process, but it's still a better predictor than just using theory.
I can't use the data from actual game play unless I have a whole ton of replays for each build by the same person to reduce all the error. Without that it's impossible to compare the replays because you don't know if you're 50 minerals from the ideal, 100 minerals from ideal, 150 minerals ect. The results from the predictor can't be reproduced because it's perfect timing, but it's consistently perfect timing, which is more important. The only way the predictor is bad is if it's actually wrong.
|
On December 06 2010 01:19 raf3776 wrote:
In the end of the day, I think all this zerg economy talk is useless unless you're playing against yourself. There's too much things that can happen in a game that can make one build better than another and the 100 extra minerals from this or that wont matter. While its somewhat nice to know which build gets the most minerals out, its pretty pointless and the build thats safest with a nice eco and preferred by the player will be used.
Eh, I somewhat agree with you amazingly enough. I think you can do anything from 10 - 18 pool hatch whatever and unless you're really good, the build you use is going to be less important than what you do after you get the game started. It does make a difference, but for many people other factors will hold much more weight.
|
On December 06 2010 01:50 scAre wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 23:47 jacobman wrote:
I got the results up for your 12 pool variation of the 18 hatch build. It looks to be about on par with the 11 pool variation. It's kind of to be expected though since it wasn't too big of a change.
EDIT: I saw your edit and I'm a little confused. Are you doing an extractor trick (make extractor, make drone, cancel extractor) or are you actually making an extractor? It's ambiguous from your wording and supply count. An extractor trick should leave you at one higher supply and actually making an extractor is what would leave you with one less supply. Well if you like to make it a race then I suppose extractor trick would be more appropriate, as you can pump only drones and overlords, nothing else. To make it actually a practical build i suggest taking a gas at that timing. In fact It will work out quite beatifully if you are taking a gas, because there will be at all times 2 drones per mineral, so there will be no oversaturation. Later you can set worker rally points to expansion. I tried to make a showcase replay but failed due 3 times in a row i got cheesed lol and had to deviate from my standard. Simplest way to get the replay is to play with computer.
Yeah, I know what you mean about the replays. Don't fret about it too much. I'm figuring it's your main build, so if you just have a good game, drop the replay by. If we're making it a race, then I think I got your build right in what I posted originally. I did extractor trick at that point.
|
http://www.upload.ee/files/966083/12pool18hatch.SC2Replay.html
A practical build order:
9 overlord
12 pool
16 queen (i suggest sending it after a single larvae inject to expansion, so queen will arrive the same moment hatchery finishes)
18 hatch
17 lings
18 gas
17 drone
18 overlord
18 queen (i suggest making a creeptumor as soon as queen#2 finishes and not a inject as it is more practical, sacrificing some production)
22 overlord
@100 gas zergling speed
@100 gas lair -> second gas
|
On December 06 2010 02:06 jacobman wrote:
Yeah, I know what you mean about the replays. Don't fret about it too much. I'm figuring it's your main build, so if you just have a good game, drop the replay by. If we're making it a race, then I think I got your build right in what I posted originally. I did extractor trick at that point.
If you want to compare builds, it is more accurate to calculate them using as few timings from a replay as possible. For example, I suggest get a time when pool is started, and time when hatch is started, everything else you can calculate. This will minimize "the human factor" and will estimate "the potential" of that build.
Building times:
Pool = 65
Queen = 50
Hatch = 100
etc.
And if you want even more accuracy, then there should be multiple attempts to get a average times.
EDIT:
Here is a tool that i made in beta to compare the potential of different builds
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkbMC3lhYNFjdFVqM1dZaENSaThwakRmTW9CYi1EZFE&hl=en#gid=0
NB!
It assumes that there is no delay between actions.
For example queen injects larvae immediatly as its complete, and doesnt count in time if it has to get to expansion. Nor does it count in time when larvae is idling(production rate stopped) etc.
These factors must be added or subtracted separatly. (using a simple formulae: +-<production rate>*<time interval>= <larvae count>
|
Long story short, which one is more economic;
15 hatch or 11 pool?
|
Have you tried 14 pool 16 hatch?
|
On December 06 2010 03:31 jambam wrote:
Have you tried 14 pool 16 hatch?
I will try 14 pool 16 hatch
|
You simply *cannot* rely on the results of build order calculators or optimizers for comparisons. It is absolutely necessary to do the comparisons in-game, in the best way you possibly can.
Build order calculators have a simplified version of reality that simply does not reflect actual results to the letter, and you *will* get the incorrect answers from them.
Use them as a guide, not a deciding factor.
|
On December 06 2010 02:50 scAre wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2010 02:06 jacobman wrote:
Yeah, I know what you mean about the replays. Don't fret about it too much. I'm figuring it's your main build, so if you just have a good game, drop the replay by. If we're making it a race, then I think I got your build right in what I posted originally. I did extractor trick at that point. If you want to compare builds, it is more accurate to calculate them using as few timings from a replay as possible. For example, I suggest get a time when pool is started, and time when hatch is started, everything else you can calculate. This will minimize "the human factor" and will estimate "the potential" of that build. Building times: Pool = 65 Queen = 50 Hatch = 100 etc. And if you want even more accuracy, then there should be multiple attempts to get a average times. EDIT:Here is a tool that i made in beta to compare the potential of different builds https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AkbMC3lhYNFjdFVqM1dZaENSaThwakRmTW9CYi1EZFE&hl=en#gid=0 NB! It assumes that there is no delay between actions. For example queen injects larvae immediatly as its complete, and doesnt count in time if it has to get to expansion. Nor does it count in time when larvae is idling(production rate stopped) etc. These factors must be added or subtracted separatly. (using a simple formulae: +-<production rate>*<time interval>= <larvae count>
I was hoping I wouldn't have to address this, but I will add the timings in, as it's not that hard to do. It shouldn't change things as it regards to how one build is relative to another. The queen didn't have any move time, but unless I messed up, the builds where it was required that the first queen move to the expansion, there was enough time allowed for the queen to move.
Also, it does count idling larvae time.
ps. before I forget, I just checked to the general timings for movements. It takes about 28 seconds to move a queen to a new base. It takes about 15 seconds to move a drone to a new base, and it takes about 2 seconds to move a drone to make a spawning pool. These are the timings I'm going to add.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
