On December 15 2010 08:32 Skrag wrote: I've actually been playing around with changing my AI so that it does some sort of "real" opening, but I'm having trouble deciding on what to actually do, because some builds are inherently going to be better at getting certain things than others.
Any ideas? I'm looking for something along the lines of "scout at time X, one pair of zerglings at time Y, gas at time Z, ling speed with the first 100 gas, 2 spine crawlers at the expansion ASAP", something along those lines.
If you read my post earlier in this thread, I suggest just plotting the drone count over the first 2-3 minutes or so.
Really any deviation you're going to make in a build will have a larger affect if you have less drones at the time that you do it. Therefore you can tell which builds will be more affected by changes just from looking at the drone count. The only exception is with such things as the scout and/or patrolling drone at the ramp. These types of things will have to be just be added to the build to see the exact effects.
On December 15 2010 09:40 ZerG~LegenD wrote: Try counting the number of times I mention 11/12 Hatch.
ACK! Sorry. Somehow I got you mixed up with Schnullerbacke13.
You inserted a comment into the middle of a rather long discussion about 11/12 hatch, my brain farted, and somehow you OBVIOUSLY must have been talking about 11/12 hatch.
On December 15 2010 08:32 Skrag wrote: I've actually been playing around with changing my AI so that it does some sort of "real" opening, but I'm having trouble deciding on what to actually do, because some builds are inherently going to be better at getting certain things than others.
Any ideas? I'm looking for something along the lines of "scout at time X, one pair of zerglings at time Y, gas at time Z, ling speed with the first 100 gas, 2 spine crawlers at the expansion ASAP", something along those lines.
If you read my post earlier in this thread, I suggest just plotting the drone count over the first 2-3 minutes or so.
Really any deviation you're going to make in a build will have a larger affect if you have less drones at the time that you do it. Therefore you can tell which builds will be more affected by changes just from looking at the drone count. The only exception is with such things as the scout and/or patrolling drone at the ramp. These types of things will have to be just be added to the build to see the exact effects.
Anything you build, like gas timings, queen timings, spine crawlers, ling speed, etc drastically alter which builds are more efficient, as a build with less larva but more minerals will be superior if you plan to make an early structure. For example, 11 overlord 11 pool is superior economically to a 9 overlord 11 pool, as it gives more minerals early when they are needed to build the early pool, whereas the 9 overlord is superior for 14 pool/14 hatch as it gives more minerals later when they are needed to build the later pool.
This is just a small example of how structure timing can drastically alter the efficiency of a build. Gas timings are very critical as well, as getting the gas earlier in many builds means that you cannot get enough minerals to use all your larva, and so this has to be considered, because the build that optimizes mineral gathering cannot be assumed to be the best build for any gas timing.
There is no "best economy build", because the best build depends on what you want, and when you want it, specifically tech. The best resource build for straight minerals will not be the best econ build in general, as gas timings will drastically alter the efficiency of the build.
On December 15 2010 10:45 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: There is no "best economy build", because the best build depends on what you want, and when you want it, specifically tech. The best resource build for straight minerals will not be the best econ build in general, as gas timings will drastically alter the efficiency of the build.
So gimme a target, and I'll try to fit it into the builds I currently have. Obviously that's only going to show the results for one specific opening, but I think it will still be interesting to see.
On December 15 2010 10:45 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: There is no "best economy build", because the best build depends on what you want, and when you want it, specifically tech. The best resource build for straight minerals will not be the best econ build in general, as gas timings will drastically alter the efficiency of the build.
So gimme a target, and I'll try to fit it into the builds I currently have. Obviously that's only going to show the results for one specific opening, but I think it will still be interesting to see.
A good place to start would be 4 Zerglings started by the time <insert time latest of to-be-compared build's pool finishes> and a gas extractor rather early, for pool first builds it would definitely be around 14-15 supply since they need it due to lack of creep. (anything else isn't safe) For hatch first builds you can delay it to around 16-17 supply since you have the opportunity to place a spine crawler if you feel the need to. If you really want to do it for both builds at the same time do it at 16 supply (always mine gas from it consistently). Also send out a drone at 14 supply to scout and another one at 16 supply to prevent ramp blocks. To make it even more realistic also build a 3rd queen at 35 supply. To finish it off, getting a spine crawler at 5:00 is a good idea. You also want to connect you main and natural with creep so get a creep tumor to do that, pool first builds generally do it with their 2nd set of energy, hatch first builds do it with the first set of energy from the queen in the main.
This is about as generic an opening you can do. It's very safe and the things included are those that I would want in a normal ZvT / ZvP on anything but very far positions. I regularely beat 2.4k-2.6k players in practice and watch every single professional Z replay I can get my hands on, so take my advice for what you will, however I think if you compare it to what was posted by players better than me you will find it matches it to a large extent.
p.s. This might be a lot to implement, but I promise you, it will shut up almost all critics and gain a LOT of interest by the more skilled players that look for stuff to include into their standard gameplay. Theoretical drone races are interesting for the mind, but rather irrelevant for an actual game of SC2
Well, the drone races aren't totally irrelevant just because you don't actually ever do that in a real game.
What's really being measured is the total available worker time a build could have. Whether those workers are gathering minerals, gas, creating buildings, scouting, etc, the builds that have more worker time available (ie, more resources at the 6 minute mark) will suffer less when you start doing real things, and will still be better off economically.
The actual amounts will change, but as a guide, I think it's still a very good and useful measurement.
As far as comparing builds doing something real goes, using supply counts as a measuring stick is a bad idea, which was one of the things that I tried to beat into people's heads in the original thread, but that nobody ever seemed to get. Time should be used instead, since that's really the only thing that matters. Whether you're doing an 11 pool or a 16 hatch, the 4:30 double rax marine push always comes at 4:30.
What I can do is take download some pro zerg replays using different builds and record the times that specific things happen.
So what I'm thinking of as a test is this: a reasonably early scout, 4 lings, speed, a third queen, a spine crawler at the expansion ASAP, and as many drones as possible given those constraints.. All the builds being compared are fast expand builds, and most of them get the hatch up early enough that you could at the very least start it in the main and move it down.
I think that seems like a pretty reasonable target as a basis for comparison. Agree?
Also, since one of my main goals throughout has been consistent and repeatable results, which means I have to add drone micro, it will probably be a bit much to try to do this for more than 3 or 4 separate builds. It takes a surprisingly long time to figure out exactly which patch to send every single drone to when it spawns, even though I'm only doing it for the first 20. That makes what I'm generating basically an unachievable goal, because not even the best players can micro as perfectly and as quickly as the AI can, but I think it's very reasonable to show the theoretical maximum potential, even if that potential isn't quite achievable by a human.
Since we know 14h15p, 15h14p, 13h15p and 14h14p all seem basically equivalent, I'd only do one of those, with 14h15p being the best candidate IMO. Because 13p15h seems to be the best of the pool-first builds, I'd want to do that one, and because there are a lot of things I really like about 11p18h, even though it's not totally economically what it was originally claimed to be (although it's still *way* better than I ever would have though), I'd include that as well. Any other particular opening that would be useful to see? I could probably manage 4 without too much trouble, although it'll definitely take me a while.
On December 15 2010 17:47 Skrag wrote: Well, the drone races aren't totally irrelevant just because you don't actually ever do that in a real game.
What's really being measured is the total available worker time a build could have. Whether those workers are gathering minerals, gas, creating buildings, scouting, etc, the builds that have more worker time available (ie, more resources at the 6 minute mark) will suffer less when you start doing real things, and will still be better off economically.
The actual amounts will change, but as a guide, I think it's still a very good and useful measurement.
As far as comparing builds doing something real goes, using supply counts as a measuring stick is a bad idea, which was one of the things that I tried to beat into people's heads in the original thread, but that nobody ever seemed to get. Time should be used instead, since that's really the only thing that matters. Whether you're doing an 11 pool or a 16 hatch, the 4:30 double rax marine push always comes at 4:30.
What I can do is take download some pro zerg replays using different builds and record the times that specific things happen.
So what I'm thinking of as a test is this: a reasonably early scout, 4 lings, speed, a third queen, a spine crawler at the expansion ASAP, and as many drones as possible given those constraints.. All the builds being compared are fast expand builds, and most of them get the hatch up early enough that you could at the very least start it in the main and move it down.
I think that seems like a pretty reasonable target as a basis for comparison. Agree?
Also, since one of my main goals throughout has been consistent and repeatable results, which means I have to add drone micro, it will probably be a bit much to try to do this for more than 3 or 4 separate builds. It takes a surprisingly long time to figure out exactly which patch to send every single drone to when it spawns, even though I'm only doing it for the first 20. That makes what I'm generating basically an unachievable goal, because not even the best players can micro as perfectly and as quickly as the AI can, but I think it's very reasonable to show the theoretical maximum potential, even if that potential isn't quite achievable by a human.
Since we know 14h15p, 15h14p, 13h15p and 14h14p all seem basically equivalent, I'd only do one of those, with 14h15p being the best candidate IMO. Because 13p15h seems to be the best of the pool-first builds, I'd want to do that one, and because there are a lot of things I really like about 11p18h, even though it's not totally economically what it was originally claimed to be (although it's still *way* better than I ever would have though), I'd include that as well. Any other particular opening that would be useful to see? I could probably manage 4 without too much trouble, although it'll definitely take me a while.
Yeah that's what I originally thought you would do, gather the timings from some replays Get the 16 gas timing from a 14 hatch build and that should fit the bill.
Also you don't need a spine ASAP at the expansion. It will slow down everything _considerably_ (i know since I've started doing it vs 2rax and i hate it). Get it at 5:00, you only need it asap vs very early marine agression.
You also always want something blocking the ramp. Fruitdealer got straight up ramp-pyloned a whole lot vs Hongun even though he always went pool first. No matter the build you always want something blocking the ramp because a 2 bunker / cannon block throws you behing WAY more than the few minerals it costs you in mining time.
I don't know when you want to build the 3rd queen but you also don't need it asap, get a pro ZvT/ZvP replay where the Z is largely unharassed and get an approximate timing of 35 supply and build it then. Ling speed is a good idea, I kind of forgot about it in my other post^^
I think you have a misconception regarding the 2rax, the first marine is at your expansion in the 3:45-4:00 range, if he builds 2 12 supply barracks he can have a marined bunker blocking your ramp4 at 4:30 easily. It's not that easy however, if you do your build in a way that is perfectly safe at 3:50 you might be very vulnerable a minute later when 4 more marines and 5 SCVs arrive. You have to adapt very individually and I don't think playing vs that strategy should be the focus of this thread.
Seeing as how this new (very exciting) method of testing puts such a large emphasis on early dronage, a build like 16hatch/15pool (like dimaga does) or at least 15hatch/16pool would be very interesting. If you can find a lot of differences between the hatch firsts between 14 and 16 it might be interesting to test all of them to get a rather definitve statement of what hatch first is best.
So what kind of conclusions can we draw from the data? Having more income is more important than having extra larva before 20 food?
Can you guys also start testing speed first builds against these other ones? I'm actually still looking for the best build against protoss. You have to assume that they're going to try very hard to block your nat and maybe plop down a pylon. Also, tosses seem to like to spam pylons and cannons now to punish 14 hatches (Not even at the ramp, but I mean behind the mineral lines at the nat). So you have to take that into consideration. Minimal damage might be your pulling drones for a little while. So I'm curious if an 11 overpool opening is actually better in those cases since you get those early 2 lings so early that you deter any blocking or cannon rushes in the first place. And you don't have to pull any drones. Does that make up for the 150 minerals or so that you would've gained from the hatch first openings?
Based on the results so far I'll probably continue to 14 hatch vs protoss on cross positions and maybe 13 pooling on close positions. And I'll also start 14 hatching 14 pooling vs terran over 14 hatching/15 pooling. That extra larva will be very useful vs 2 raxes.
Lastly can you update the OP a little? It took 12 pages for me to spot that http://sc2calc.org/build_order/ is too inconsistent to test out builds. Maybe you can replace it with a quick tutorial on how to set up AI to test builds so others can start to test builds they have in mind.
Yeah that's actually a pretty good idea. Put a 14 gas 14 pool speedling build in there to show the world how good/bad it actually is and how much that early speed costs them in economy.
The build continues 15OL 15Queen 17Speed (pull drones and put them back on when the other builds start speed) 17+18Lings 19 Hatchery (hatch asap is more economical than drones)
* 2cnd hatch finished at the time scv's and marines come in * 2 .. 4 lings to attack the initial marine and scv, in real games you build 2..4 lings and delay 2cnd queen somewhat (it still pops out about the same time as scnd queen with 14h builds). * 1st queen at nat would have been finished round 4'15 right when the 2cnd marine comes in, right to attack the bunker building scv. * alternatively one could skip the lings and build an early spine (don't like that personally)
you do not have to pull drones to defend, so you come out better economically ..
Give it a try on ladder, as this build moves the weak timing window from 4..4:30 to 3:30 .. 4:00. Your eco will still be strong enough to overpower any protoss or terran, and its much safer. (full build at page 11 of this thread, however delay scnd queen in favor of lings or spine).
Okay, I tried the 12H/13P and the 15H/16P. I did not do a full blown test on them, but I did run them through a few times and compare the numbers to the ones I had for the 12H/14P and 15H/15P. They were pretty practically equal. All this means for all of the testing that I've heard going around so far is that if you wanted to try the 15H/16P out in your test with gas and such then it might not be a bad idea.
I maintain my position that you can predict which builds will be affected greatest by added scout, gas, roach warren, speed, baneling nest, lings, ect by simply looking at the number of drones present at the time that you are adding the change and the size of investments made after the change (eg. hatch being a large invesment compared to pool).
I think I am done with the testing of builds for now. While I do think I can predict the results of the test you guys are doing, I also think it's a great idea to test. Making predictions is never as good as actually testing and getting results. Despite the fact that I think it is a good idea, I do not believe I will be doing that testing. I think I'm just going to help analyse any data that I see come out from other people this time around. My contribution is the OP. If you guys get some more good data I will more than happily add it to the OP. I think it's good to have all the information about the economy of builds in one place. It's confusing to have to hunt all over the place.
On December 15 2010 20:18 Warrior Madness wrote: + Show Spoiler +
So what kind of conclusions can we draw from the data? Having more income is more important than having extra larva before 20 food?
Can you guys also start testing speed first builds against these other ones? I'm actually still looking for the best build against protoss. You have to assume that they're going to try very hard to block your nat and maybe plop down a pylon. Also, tosses seem to like to spam pylons and cannons now to punish 14 hatches (Not even at the ramp, but I mean behind the mineral lines at the nat). So you have to take that into consideration. Minimal damage might be your pulling drones for a little while. So I'm curious if an 11 overpool opening is actually better in those cases since you get those early 2 lings so early that you deter any blocking or cannon rushes in the first place. And you don't have to pull any drones. Does that make up for the 150 minerals or so that you would've gained from the hatch first openings?
Based on the results so far I'll probably continue to 14 hatch vs protoss on cross positions and maybe 13 pooling on close positions. And I'll also start 14 hatching 14 pooling vs terran over 14 hatching/15 pooling. That extra larva will be very useful vs 2 raxes.
Lastly can you update the OP a little? It took 12 pages for me to spot that http://sc2calc.org/build_order/ is too inconsistent to test out builds. Maybe you can replace it with a quick tutorial on how to set up AI to test builds so others can start to test builds they have in mind.
I'll consider adding a few pointers on the OP for writing the BO AI. Although, you can see and modify the script yourself if you download any of the maps. My script is actually messy, but it gets the job done.
How do you do the AI in a script? I actually program for a living, so I'm going to be *way* more comfortable doing more complex stuff that way. And I could probably even simplify what I already have.
thanks for the efforts skrag & jacobman, however i'd would prefer if anybody could veryfy those tests ;-).
just for the books:
10 hatch 13 pool gets hatch down at 1'30 (practically not blockable). Pool is set at 2'39 (identical to 14h15p).
with my testing scenario (played at lowest speed, 2 queens (2cnd delayed), drone to 52/52) it ends with 734 minerals at 6'20 which is ~250 minerals behind 14h15p. However a bit tweaking might reward an additional 50-100 mins. While waiting for the hatch you loose 2..3 larvae. But since hatch is very early you get them back later on (so you roughly loose mining time of 3 drones for 140 seconds ~= 230 mins, 140 seconds = 110 until hatch builds + 30 seconds wait without droning).
On December 15 2010 23:17 Skrag wrote: How do you do the AI in a script? I actually program for a living, so I'm going to be *way* more comfortable doing more complex stuff that way. And I could probably even simplify what I already have.
I just added a brief scripting tutorial in the main post. The first paragraph should get you started. The rest of it might be a little bit boring for you since you program for a living. If you just skim it for the examples of the code, that will probably be more helpful to you.
I'll be adding two more walkthroughs to it in a little bit, which will probably have more useful functions for someone who already knows what they're doing.
On December 16 2010 00:31 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: thanks for the efforts skrag & jacobman, however i'd would prefer if anybody could veryfy those tests ;-).
just for the books:
10 hatch 13 pool gets hatch down at 1'30 (practically not blockable). Pool is set at 2'39 (identical to 14h15p).
with my testing scenario (played at lowest speed, 2 queens (2cnd delayed), drone to 52/52) it ends with 734 minerals at 6'20 which is ~250 minerals behind 14h15p. However a bit tweaking might reward an additional 50-100 mins. While waiting for the hatch you loose 2..3 larvae. But since hatch is very early you get them back later on (so you roughly loose mining time of 3 drones for 140 seconds ~= 230 mins, 140 seconds = 110 until hatch builds + 30 seconds wait without droning).
Alright, we really need you to start reporting your minerals in the same manner that we've been collecting the data (minerals spent + current minerals).
The current minerals alone is not enough to know anything about the build. This build that you mention sounds much more practical than any of the other builds you mentioned. Delaying the pool a little bit has tended to give better economic results, and if what you say about 1:30 hatch is correct, that could be very useful. I'll check it out.
Seriously though, you need to start reporting minerals spent + current minerals instead of just current minerals so the data actually means something
Alright, we really need you to start reporting your minerals in the same manner that we've been collecting the data (minerals spent + current minerals).
The current minerals alone is not enough to know anything about the build. This build that you mention sounds much more practical than any of the other builds you mentioned. Delaying the pool a little bit has tended to give better economic results, and if what you say about 1:30 hatch is correct, that could be very useful. I'll check it out.
Seriously though, you need to start reporting minerals spent + current minerals instead of just current minerals so the data actually means something
@6'20 ?
since i am always building 2 hatches, 2 queens and drone to 52/52 until 6'20, that's easy:
Note: i am not investing too much into fine tuning drone micro etc. So you'll probably get higher numbers with all builds (e.g. your 14h15p yielded 5330, i got 5200). Expect the 10 hatch/11 hatch/extractor 12 hatch to be in range of 11p18h economically.
"practical" .. do you actually play ladder (at which level?). Currently lotso terrans (starting from gold)
a) block nat and/or b) 2 rax rush
this means you mostly never get a 14h15p to play ;-) .. most of the time i end with putting the pool before hatch (because blocked) and nat gets delayed up to 20 supply. So wtf is impractical in 2XtractorTrick12hatch11pool ? Its very practical, as it has a good chance to get down the hatch and is better of in case of 2 rax. Just get you some decent 2 barracks terran opponent and try those builds. I know, perfect micro and control may overcome this .. however i don't have 200+ APM, do you have ? A lot of pros recently lost against 2 rax pushes (GSL!). And even artosis stated "you can't play hatch before pool on the korean server".
one answer is 11p18h (ask yourself why this is so popular), second answer might be fast hatch first builds .. dunno if this holds true for very high level play, but i think so, as even pro's nowadays do not get their 14h15p played undistorted ..
Yeah, and I'm sure most people have heard, idra and ret said you can't play pool before hatch and win against a 2rax. There are many theories about play going around right now.
Also, I already told you why 12hatch 11pool isn't practical. It doesn't get the hatch down early enough to matter in regards to the 12hatch14pool or the 13hatch15pool, which outperforms the 12/11 economically. So while you MIGHT be able to pull of the 12hatch 11pool, why do it? It has no advantages of its own. I'm not quite sure how you came to the conclusion that it's better against 2rax either.
I will check out your 10H 13P because it sounds like it could have its own unique advantages. However based off of your information and my quick tests of the 12H/11P I do not see a niche for the 12H/11P build. You seem to interpret the data differently, and that is your prerogative. There's not much else I can say though, because we're looking at the same data, yet I still disagree.
If you think 12H/11P outperforms the 13H/15P, 14H/15P and 12H/14P then perhaps you should make a thread about it to bring it to peoples notice. People can then make up their own minds, but I've already seen the build and my mind is made up on it.
On December 16 2010 01:49 jacobman wrote: Yeah, and I'm sure most people have heard, idra and ret said you can't play pool before hatch and win against a 2rax. There are many theories about play going around right now.
Also, I already told you why 12hatch 11pool isn't practical. It doesn't get the hatch down early enough to matter in regards to the 12hatch14pool or the 13hatch15pool, which outperforms the 12/11 economically. So while you MIGHT be able to pull of the 12hatch 11pool, why do it? It has no advantages of its own. I'm not quite sure how you came to the conclusion that it's better against 2rax either.
I will check out your 10H 13P because it sounds like it could have its own unique advantages. However based off of your information and my quick tests of the 12H/11P I do not see a niche for the 12H/11P build. You seem to interpret the data differently, and that is your prerogative. There's not much else I can say though, because we're looking at the same data, yet I still disagree.
If you think 12H/11P outperforms the 13H/15P, 14H/15P and 12H/14P then perhaps you should make a thread about it to bring it to peoples notice. People can then make up their own minds, but I've already seen the build and my mind is made up on it.
Wtf. Do you actually read ?. We are looking at the same numbers, there are replays, the timings are known. 2X12h11pool is ~250 mins behind 14h15p at 6'20 in an absolute theoretical scenario.
However i insist on the fact, that an early pool and early hatch is more important than some minerals at 6'20. Its about timings. You better fend of 2 rax because *you got lings* in time and the hatch is *UP*. A Queen is done at ~4'15, you might have a spine up (i dislike). You probably know, a completed building has an armor of 1, while a morphing one has no armor. So it makes up a difference if hatch is finished in case you get bunker rushed (also you already have creep).
That's why i asked if you actually play ladder and at what level ;-) ..
Possibility a) you play bronze/silver opponents and never get attacked before 8'00 b) you play diamond and i am a complete uebernoob c) a) and partially b) are true ;-)
with 10 hatch 13 pool, hatch is unblockable however pool is pretty late (same as 14h15p) ..
Lets not be rude. This thread has been fairly respectful so far.
I play high gold since it is so important to you. I used to play platinum, but I haven't been playing much recently, so basically I play high gold/low plat players. However, whatever league you're in has no bearing on if what you say is true or not. Really the only people who really know the game well are those in 2700+ diamond, but that's besides the point.
The early hatch is irrelevant when compared to the 12H/14P and 13H/15P I mentioned. The early pool is nice, but it's not worth the extra minerals. I would rather just use my mineral advantage to throw up more spine crawlers if they're coming that early.
I'm assuming that you're in gold? I'm also guessing that you have trouble fending off early pressure since you seem to really like the really early pool/hatch type builds. I'm not sure why this would be. I have very little trouble fending off early pressure when I play, and I do not only play people who don't attack before 8 minutes. I'm far from the best play either, so I would guess that if I can fend off early pressure running a 14H/14P, which is what I do, many other players can. Is it possible that you just need more practice in doing so yourself?
EPT
