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MasterReY
Germany2708 Posts
i was laughing so hard at this word haha. i dont want to get banned so i post something about the topic ;D : Hmm could work actually but tbh i think protoss with good micro can easily own this strat with mass stalkers and 2-3 sentries. (4gate and just waiting for you to come out ofc, not attacking against ramp) | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On November 29 2010 11:40 oZii wrote: You wont have enough units to 1 base coloussus vs this even if you do some how and defend against it your will be contained. Even if some does all these thing your talking about cliff walking abusing terrain etc.. Colossus hinders your mobility reason why terrans drop against colossus play so much. So like he was saying about the current meta it loses to this. In the curent meta its first push at 2 colossus. In that time he is expanding as stated in the op and still massing voids. The longer you wait the worse it gets with alot of voids. Kiwikakki does a build somewhat like this. What? Are you going to bust up their ramp with slowlots? Are you in silver league? also, please learn what metagame means. | ||
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Vauld
Canada73 Posts
On November 29 2010 11:44 MasterReY wrote: Colloxen ROFL i was laughing so hard at this word haha. i dont want to get banned so i post something about the topic ;D : Hmm could work actually but tbh i think protoss with good micro can easily own this strat with mass stalkers and 2-3 sentries. (4gate and just waiting for you to come out ofc, not attacking against ramp) Watch the second game, it's exactly what you said except with early stalker pressure to boot. I screwed up hard and it was close positions which is disadvantageous for this build, and it still didn't work. | ||
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oZii
United States1198 Posts
On November 29 2010 11:46 sob3k wrote: What? Are you going to bust up their ramp with slowlots? Are you in silver league? Lol who said anything about busting there ramp with slowlots or busting there ramp at all? Unless your one of those players that thinks all-in with every build. The voids will contain in pvp until your opponent has enough colossus to move out. Who wants 2 voids in there base? Its the same concept as mutas or or banshees as the voids snowball it gets worse. His key words are the current meta. Stop thinking allin all the time like many protoss players. The voids will give you an advantage and you will be mobile. While a colossus protoss will be immobile yea they can get there natural sure but the voids can buy you time to secure a 3rd before they do. See beyond 2 bases. 2 bases is not macro dude lol. | ||
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Vauld
Canada73 Posts
On November 29 2010 11:46 sob3k wrote: What? Are you going to bust up their ramp with slowlots? Are you in silver league? also, please learn what metagame means. With voids and slowlots and sentries. If you see you won't be able to break it you just contain while your expo gets you further and further ahead and you mass more voids. The longer the game goes on the better this build gets. Mass voids aren't really possible to deal with as protoss without your own. | ||
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MasterReY
Germany2708 Posts
On November 29 2010 11:49 Vauld wrote: Watch the second game, it's exactly what you said except with early stalker pressure to boot. I screwed up hard and it was close positions which is disadvantageous for this build, and it still didn't work. if he waits for YOU to attack HIM then he would prefer a large map so you need more time to attack. he can get +4-8 stalker more on bigger maps. But ill try the build in my future PvPs :D | ||
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Vauld
Canada73 Posts
On November 29 2010 11:58 MasterReY wrote: if he waits for YOU to attack HIM then he would prefer a large map so you need more time to attack. he can get +4-8 stalker more on bigger maps. But ill try the build in my future PvPs :D Awesome, it's fun, I think you'll be surprised by how powerful it is. Also if he waits for me to attack then my army gets significantly more powerful than his. It's like his sitting on 4gate vs someone going 3gate robo, waiting is a bad idea for him. | ||
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Shlowpoke
United States102 Posts
So basically a normal unit composition does well against it, as long as you focus fire correctly. Look at that match on Metalopolis where your opponent 4-Gated and contained you at the ramp, then didn't make a second wave and just expanded. There was basically nothing you could do to prevent that. The reason you won that game was because of poor micro on your opponent's part and his terrible (yet hilarious) decision to make a Void Ray to combat your 4+ Void Rays. It looks strong against Robo builds, but Stargate builds having an advantage against Robo builds is nothing new. The reason Stargate openers aren't used much at a high level is because of well-executed 3-Gate Blink or 1 Gas 4-Gate All-ins. Here's a good 1 Gas 4-Gate All-in: Replay It hits at around 5:50 with 2 Zealots and 5 Stalkers. At this point in your replays, you had about 3 gateway units (1 Sentry) and your Void Ray was just starting. | ||
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oZii
United States1198 Posts
A bit of a break down of the replays I watched. The game on Xelnaga I would say your opponent could have built more stuff his macro wasn't spectacular. He was going 2 gate robo. I don't think even if he went 3 gate he could have done anything. You had 4 voids at his base yea he didn't build alot of stuff but he was waiting for the information from his observer and by time it got to your base you already had 3 voids out. The immortals are really useless since your going basically zealot sentry Voids. You really are only getting a few sentries for key forcefields. On lost temple where you defended the expo and where pressured hard by his stalkers that game was pretty close. I would say that as pointed out dark templar seems the best to counter this. I think that if he builds a few dark templar and sends them to your base and keeps more of his stalkers that he may win that. So its more 50/50 against DT's The blink stalker rush on Metalopolis pretty much shows the power of this build. Yea the stalkers can blink but its almost neutralized because of the zealots are completely destroying the zealots. I think maybe a round or 2 of zealots from your opponents mixed in the with there stalkers would give them time to focus fire your voids down. Again not saying its a weakness of the build just that it would make the engagements more close to call. Sniping the cyber is almost as bad as sniping a nexus in a sense. After you lost your expo then countered and sniped his cyber it put him behind allowing you 2 re-expo. As you said protoss pretty much are only going to use stalkers for AA. Overall thoughts: I would say this is definitely solid build to be used in PvP. I dont think dark templar arguement is that valid yes dark templar can beat this but they can also beat 4 gate and its pretty much accepted that 4 gate is the standard Protoss build. So I still would consider this as viable as 2 gate robo or any other protoss build. There is definitely room for much more refinement of this build for sure. There are points were you have alot of minerals and as I was watching it I was thinking to myself you could have warped in alot more zealots and probably ended many of your matches earlier. The zealots are just the meat for the voids to do there thing which is the same thing they are used for with colossus. The common factor in all the replays is that you can tell the opponents and you are able to expand pretty safely. I will defintely be using this build for sure. | ||
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oZii
United States1198 Posts
On November 29 2010 12:57 Shlowpoke wrote: Watched all the replays. I learned that Zealot + Void Rays crushes pure Stalkers without good micro/blink. xD It's a bit counter-intuitive, but it seems that you actually need Zealots to delay their Zealots long enough for your Stalkers to focus down some Void Rays. Guardian shield will also reduce Void Ray damage a lot. So basically a normal unit composition does well against it, as long as you focus fire correctly. Look at that match on Metalopolis where your opponent 4-Gated and contained you at the ramp, then didn't make a second wave and just expanded. There was basically nothing you could do to prevent that. The reason you won that game was because of poor micro on your opponent's part and his terrible (yet hilarious) decision to make a Void Ray to combat your 4+ Void Rays. It looks strong against Robo builds, but Stargate builds having an advantage against Robo builds is nothing new. The reason Stargate openers aren't used much at a high level is because of well-executed 3-Gate Blink or 1 Gas 4-Gate All-ins. Here's a good 1 Gas 4-Gate All-in: Replay It hits at around 5:50 with 2 Zealots and 5 Stalkers. At this point in your replays, you had about 3 gateway units (1 Sentry) and your Void Ray was just starting. While agree with some of your points especially the part about the extra zealots in a pure stalker build will make it a bit tougher. If you look at his macro compared to his opponent (his being worse) and look at the times of the build you will notice that there is room for alot of improvement in this build. I didn't watch the 4 gate game. If you look at his metaloplis game against the 4 gate rush at 4:52 the OP has : 50 minerals : 134 gas : Starport is halfway done : Warpgate tech is NOT started. He starts it at 5:36 after he starts the void ray there is definitely room for warpgate tech to be started before there is also some extra chrono just sitting in there to pump that first void or another gateway unit. There are holes in the execution of the replay but with refinement you should be able to see this is pretty solid. | ||
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Abstinence
United States328 Posts
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Shlowpoke
United States102 Posts
On November 29 2010 13:31 oZii wrote:There are holes in the execution of the replay but with refinement you should be able to see this is pretty solid. I am skeptical. If you or anyone else would like to post a refined version that looks stable enough to be able to hold off some of the many crazy PvP all-ins, then by all means post away. | ||
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tchan
Australia121 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
You might consider reacting with a Phoenix before Void Rays against builds that show a tech building to your scouting probe. If the opponent isn't gateway rushing, you should be safe to do so, and the scouting + graviton energy is pretty keen. (Plus, the lower cost of the Phoenix might help you get your buildings or +1 Air Weapons up faster.) | ||
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Tivo
United States121 Posts
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Tossup
United States208 Posts
On November 29 2010 14:06 Severedevil wrote: This sounds really cool. I'll note that you should get hammered by a Phoenix opening, since Phoenix defeat Voids straight-up at a lower price, are faster, and can kill your Sentries (or raid your probe lines) much more easily than your Void Rays can kill his. Which makes me curious - Phoenix and Void Ray take the exact same tech, so there's no cost to mix them... when would you rather build one or the other? Pure Void Ray may not be ideal, whereas Phoenixes can chase down your opponent's Stalkers (which are faster than Zealot/Sentry/Void) but don't have the Void Ray's range and anti-armored DPS... You might consider reacting with a Phoenix before Void Rays against builds that show a tech building to your scouting probe. If the opponent isn't gateway rushing, you should be safe to do so, and the scouting + graviton energy is pretty keen. (Plus, the lower cost of the Phoenix might help you get your buildings or +1 Air Weapons up faster.) If you can get there, phoenix+void+zealot is a deadly combo. 5 phoenixes and 2 voids basically beats equal if not larger resources of stalkers. Phoenixes lift up the stalkers while voids focus them down. The remainder of the stalkers will have to deal with zealots. From there, it's ez pickings. Blink can't solve this as at least 5 will be caught by the phoenixes. | ||
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s4m222
United States272 Posts
I went 2 gate colossus, had a slightly slower expo. i saw the first 1-2 voids and went pure stalkers / colossus. When we engaged i had blink upgraded. Maybe 4-5 colossus / 14ish stalkers 10 zealots and some sentries, vs 7 or so void rays, 2 immortals(which melt stalkers), and a mostly zealot. He focused down my stalkers, and i died. I was quite surprised. I didnt expect a void ray army, so much as a few thrown in..... I got rolled. In hindsight, Had i been more proactive with observers I should have cut colossus, and gone something more like pure stalkers. And also push when he only had 2-3 instead of letting him get to 7+. | ||
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EchoZ
Japan5041 Posts
I will check out the replay later when I get back home from classes ;X | ||
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Vaporak
70 Posts
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BenKen
United States860 Posts
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