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So everyone seems to think that PvP is the most stale matchup and it involves only: 4 Gate Builds (some with Blink), or 1 or 2 base Colloxen Builds. I've come up with a new alternative that I feel is at least equally viable. After 1.1.2 I came up with this build, and have been using it every PvP I've done, and have yet to have someone beat me when I follow this build correctly. I've been destroying much better players than I simply because of this build. Also, people all think that the change to the void ray in 1.1.2 was a huge nerf, honestly though, I loved it. Even uncharged voids are now almost impossible for protoss to deal with, as the main aa units are the stalker and sentry.
The Basic build order looks like this:
9 Pylon
12 Gateway
14 Gas
16 Pylon
Cybernetics Core as soon as Gateway finishes
Second Gas when 75 minerals are available (usually ~19 supply)
Start on first Zealot when you have 100 minerals
Stargate right when Cybernetics Core finishes
Second Gateway as soon as you can afford it
Warp Gate when you can after Stargate and first Sentry are started
Third Gateway when you start noticing a mineral pileup
Key Points:
- Use all your chrono boosts on probes early on, and never stop producing out of your gateway until you need to stop to get your first void (if you need to).
- Once you start voidray production, never stop, and use all your chrono boost on your stargate from here on.
- Make 2 sentries early, they are invaluable tools in beating pure stalker armies, keep them protected, replace them as you can afford it, they save your arse.
- 2 guys on each gas geyser is enough to make nonstop chrono boosted voids out of 1 stargate, so you will have extra gas. Use it for stalkers or sentries or ups, your choice.
- You can fully produce out of 1 Stargate and 3 Gateways on one base at max saturation, I tend to do 2 stargate + 4 gateway for when I get my first expo up, and go from there.
- If you get in their base, Cyber Core is the highest priority target, without it your opponent cannot make Anti Air.
- If you deny scouting and your opponent is going 2 or 3 Gate Robo, by the time his Observer gets to your base it's too late and you should have a Build Order Win.
- Keep the Voids/Zealots/Sentries together, you're not trying to Cheese here, this is a great army composition.
- If you smell DTs throw down a forge and a cannon at your front as you won't have a Robo for Observers. In fact, once you've expo'd it's probably a good idea anyways.
Tips:
- I usually put the first pylon and gateway at the ramp and keep scouts out with a hold position Probe while waiting for the first Zealot, and put the other Pylons/Cyber/Stargate elsewhere in my base.
- Rally the Stargate to the voids to make sure they all stay together.
- Your ramp is what lets you defend early stalker/4 gate pressure. If your opponent tries pushing up your ramp, ff behind the stalkers and have your zealots/sentries destroy them, making your voids safer.
- Usually I push out once I have 3 voids and the 4th on the way, it seems to be a solid timing where it's enough to overpower most opponents, if nothing else it usually allows me to get an expo up to get ahead.
Replays:
vs Blink Stalker Rush
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-169800.jpg)
vs Early Stalker Pressure then 4 Gate all in
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-169801.jpg)
vs 4 Gate Pressure to defend an early expo
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-169803.jpg)
vs 2 Gate Robo
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-169804.jpg)
Closing Note:
Let me know what you guys think, and if you have any success with it. I've been beating 2200+ Diamonds when I'm only ~950 myself. I'll try to reply to everyone and update this post often, and I can post more replays if requested. (Also I know my play can be very sloppy lol, I know I need to do a lot of improving)
EDIT:
Posts from people who have tried this build:
+ Show Spoiler +On November 29 2010 16:30 Vaporak wrote:
I like to do pretty much this build in PvP, much more interesting than playing the Colloxen/4Gate game most Protoss do. Early defense is really scary and razer thin with this build, but it has a very strong midgame vs Robo or Blink stalker armies because most of them will depend so much on stalkers, which are just terrible units. I won my last 2 PvP's against one of each of those builds pretty convincingly at ~1700 diamond so it's at least not a terrible strategy. I do wonder how much of a future it has though since I've never seen it in any tournaments. On November 30 2010 06:08 CurLy[] wrote:
This is a very strong build, voids are just strong as hell vs stalkers if you keep them alive. 3/3 so far. I've used a lot of voids vs terran but haven't given it much of a test in pvp.
Good forcefields are crucial, ill post some reps after class
My take:
Don't keep just making zealot sentry void ray, Add in stalkers once you have too many zealots to properly engage a choke. You are going to get FF'ed and you need to be dealing damage still so throw in a few stalkers once you have enough sentries and can spare some gas.
Its fun as hell too ^^ On November 30 2010 08:13 Goldbug wrote:
This build works great. Timing push with 3 voids. Stalkers are NOT that good against voids with the zealots slicing through them. Use the voids as bait, the zealots are as much the dps in this build as the void rays are. They won't have more than one collosus at the time you push out. I have yet to lose with this strat. This works really well against robo builds, or, counter-intuitively stalker heavy builds, as without zealots as meat, your zealots will rip through the stalkers as they try to micro to kill your void rays. I like the psychological effect of void rays as it seems they will do anything to focus them down. Use that to your advantage and micro them back letting the zealots slice away the stalkers trying to work their way through. On November 30 2010 12:53 Gr1m wrote:I've tried this is my last 5 pvp games, and I've won all 5  Needless to say it's my core build right now in pvp. The timing attacks work really well with 1 void (to pressure / take down there natural, and then again with 3-4 voids for a strong push to set up my third. I do find after getting my third that switching to robo tech really punishes an opponent who is even a little to stalker heavy.
General Consensus
+ Show Spoiler +This build RAPES Robo builds, if you scout your opponent going for a fast Robo this is a great build to use. A skilled opponent using 4-gate or Blink Stalkers is quite scary early, but if you hold your army will end up coming out ahead. In high levels of Diamond it is quite possible this build may not be able to hold the initial push (possible fix vs either of these builds may be doing 2 gate robo for Zealot-Immortal then adding a Stargate for Voids) On November 30 2010 13:17 KiWiKaKi wrote:
stargate first builds cant work , any good opponent will win with 4 gates , or blink stalkers which is super popular in korea. Voidrays are good but not used like this , if you want a good build use 2 gates robo - zealots immortals and then add a stargate for voidrays immortals zealots.
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With no detection how can you kill DT's rush?
How does this work agaisnt 4 gate with WARP PRISM to avoid the inevitable FF on ramp?
What if you go agaisnt collo stalker, how will this work?
I can see many flaws, but alltogether sounds like a cool strat i guess.
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man, this is totally my build - i spent like 20 posts talking about how awesome it is 
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170704¤tpage=7#124
pages 7, 8 and 9.
I've been having pretty good success with it vs terran also if I suspect marauder - and more recently if I expect banshee I just rush straight for voids to beat them to the punch.
less success than i should vs zerg - i was 6-3 vs zerg today - losing to 1: early baneling bust cuz i was expecting 1 base muta - so i built phoenix instead of void. losing 1 roaches because of awkward and late stargate transition and one cuz of just horrible play.
protoss air is really underrated. and zealot sentry just chews shit up.
EDIT : vs toss i am about 12-2 since going zeal / sentry - losing to a _pure_ 7 minute dt rush (sloppy scouting) and once to a dual proxy gate at 10.
EDIT 2: DT are the biggest threat hands down - only answer is a lot of early pressure.
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On November 29 2010 10:54 tocador wrote:
With no detection how can you kill DT's rush?
How does this work agaisnt 4 gate with WARP PRISM to avoid the inevitable FF on ramp?
What if you go agaisnt collo stalker, how will this work?
I can see many flaws, but alltogether sounds like a cool strat i guess.
I scout early and my push usually comes before DTs are possible without a straight rush. I have had a couple opponents DT rush me and I got suspicious and made a forge and a cannon at my ramp and it was game. If it's a straight rush to DTs they won't have gas for enough stalkers and the Voids can kill them on their own.
Unless they go straight for the Warp Prism, same thing, my attack will come earlier. Usually when the first obs gets to my base is around when I'm pushing out, so without prism first it won't matter, and I'm on one base at that point anyways, so getting in my back won't matter.
Also, I don't think I've ever had an opponent survive to be able to make collosus, I push early enough that that just can't happen. Void rays and zealots destroy Stalkers so hard it's not even funny, most games my opponents go pure stalker to try to handle the voids, and it's still not enough.
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Yeah - I've been saying the same thing - everyone talks about colo and FF beating this - what they don't understand is that generic pvp meta loses so horribly to this that they can't ever get there.
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I love this! I must try it out. I was so jaded against voids I never thought to use them this way.
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On November 29 2010 10:54 tocador wrote:
With no detection how can you kill DT's rush?
How does this work agaisnt 4 gate with WARP PRISM to avoid the inevitable FF on ramp?
What if you go agaisnt collo stalker, how will this work?
I can see many flaws, but alltogether sounds like a cool strat i guess.
I think detection can come in since you will have the gas to afford a forge, just throw down a cannon by your front.
againts collo stalker i could also see a problem. if the opponent has 3 collo your zealots are pretty much shut down cause 5 shots from one collo kill a zealot but with three your zealots would be pretty useless and probably not even make it to the stalkers. maybe try and FF behind the stalkers and come from behind the collo with the voids and snipe them. That would take mad micro skills though. but as everyone knows, "theory crafting is fun because practicality be damned!"
As far as 4 gate WP i dont think it would have that many problems because you will be running off 3 gates and teching down a WP path while funding 4 gates would leave your army a little lacking.
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On November 29 2010 11:05 30to1 wrote:
Yeah - I've been saying the same thing - everyone talks about colo and FF beating this - what they don't understand is that generic pvp meta loses so horribly to this that they can't ever get there.
Thank you, that's exactly it. It's not possible to have enough gas to get to colloxen vs this without dying.
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I have been working on a solid PvP build based on chargelot/void
I'm not nearly refined though, I'm still adapting to be able to beat a solid 4gate, although it rapes bad P's. Vs a good P you have to do alot of stuff just to avoid being trapped in your base forever.
IMO this build would be stronger if you used the extra gas for charge, it stops stalker kiting as well, and makes every zealot significantly better.
I'll post when I'm done. The build posted is something I used early on, but its just way too weak to a solid 4gate, and the sentries reduce the amount of voids too much early on. I found it didn't work well at all.
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On November 29 2010 11:19 Vauld wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 11:05 30to1 wrote:
Yeah - I've been saying the same thing - everyone talks about colo and FF beating this - what they don't understand is that generic pvp meta loses so horribly to this that they can't ever get there. Thank you, that's exactly it. It's not possible to have enough gas to get to colloxen vs this without dying.
It totally is, they just have to abuse terrain and play more defensively (after 4gate timings). They will have a very hard time breaking you in the open (after you have some voids), but you will also not be able to bust their expansion at all if they use FF and cliffwalk correctly until you get significant void numbers.
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In my experience this loses most of the time to 3 Gate Robo builds..
I am by no means a gaming god, just a measly midlevel diamond. I Have however been using a similar build for quite some time - though involving a fair amount of stalkers too.
My initial thought was that it should be working great against immortals, as Voidrays won't be capped by the shields. However, immortals rip through any stalkers you build in no time, and his stalkers will make quick work of the voids.
(I will have to try with pure zealots-Sentry)
I will however point out that adding early Voidrays to your unit mix takes good care of colosus builds.
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i have completely stopped making stalkers early game in pvp. they're frankly a waste of resources better spent punishing your opponent for not realizing that.
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I've seen a similar build work extremely well in PvT but for reasons like DTs as someone else has said I don't see it working nearly as well in a PvP and a 4 gate I feel would overwhelm the voids with sufficient stalkers.
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i got it done to me once and i got owned, then i started doing it. but if your opponent knows what they're doing its not so great.
If you lose your voids its gg. if he goes dts, its gg. if he gets critical mass of colossi its gg.
voids are weak to stalkers, so with this build i found the sweetspot is about 3-4 voids and go for a timing push.
if you get there and he has alot of immortals and only few stlakers, you pretty much win
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i am glad that people don't believe in this build because they think stalker / colo beats it.
honestly, just delete the whole thread
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On November 29 2010 11:19 sob3k wrote:
I have been working on a solid PvP build based on chargelot/void
I'm not nearly refined though, I'm still adapting to be able to beat a solid 4gate, although it rapes bad P's. Vs a good P you have to do alot of stuff just to avoid being trapped in your base forever.
IMO this build would be stronger if you used the extra gas for charge, it stops stalker kiting as well, and makes every zealot significantly better.
I'll post when I'm done. The build posted is something I used early on, but its just way too weak to a solid 4gate, and the sentries reduce the amount of voids too much early on. I found it didn't work well at all.
Charge is all well and great, but rushing to it leaves you with too small of an army. I do end up getting Charge after I'm on 2 base, as well as Flux Vanes, but you really can't afford getting either earlier. The zealots stop the stalkers from being able to focus fire the voids, if they do they get punished by both the zealots and the voids. The Sentries also stop the Stalkers from kiting, the key is positioning and good ff's.
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Good way to deal with DT's is to throw down a forge earlier in you build, you can upgrade (very useful for zealots) and if you suspect DT's you can throw down 1 cannon at entrance until more is needed.
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As far as detection goes, I noticed that at times you were floating around 500 minerals. can easily drop a canon at the ramp for defense if you know your opponent went templar tech based on blink. A straight up DT rush would maybe be dangerous but if you push when you have a 1 or 2 voids then you can probably hit them before they hit you. I would say look up the timings for a DT rush and try to poke just before shrine finishes.
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Yeah I know I often start floating minerals, if I don't see much from them I usually get a forge, I've gotten DT rushed a couple times and that's exactly what I did to stop it.
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On November 29 2010 11:22 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 11:19 Vauld wrote:On November 29 2010 11:05 30to1 wrote:
Yeah - I've been saying the same thing - everyone talks about colo and FF beating this - what they don't understand is that generic pvp meta loses so horribly to this that they can't ever get there. Thank you, that's exactly it. It's not possible to have enough gas to get to colloxen vs this without dying. It totally is, they just have to abuse terrain and play more defensively (after 4gate timings). They will have a very hard time breaking you in the open (after you have some voids), but you will also not be able to bust their expansion at all if they use FF and cliffwalk correctly until you get significant void numbers.
You wont have enough units to 1 base coloussus vs this even if you do some how and defend against it you will be contained. Even if some does all these thing your talking about cliff walking abusing terrain etc.. Colossus hinders your mobility reason why terrans drop against colossus play so much. So like he was saying about the current meta it loses to this. In the curent meta its first push at 2 colossus. In that time he is expanding as stated in the op and still massing voids. The longer you wait the worse it gets with alot of voids. Kiwikakki does a build somewhat like this. I had this done to me by some that had it done to them by kiwikakki. Except you double stargate when the expansion goes down.
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Colloxen ROFL
i was laughing so hard at this word haha.
i dont want to get banned so i post something about the topic ;D :
Hmm could work actually but tbh i think protoss with good micro can easily own this strat with mass stalkers and 2-3 sentries. (4gate and just waiting for you to come out ofc, not attacking against ramp)
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On November 29 2010 11:40 oZii wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 11:22 sob3k wrote:On November 29 2010 11:19 Vauld wrote:On November 29 2010 11:05 30to1 wrote:
Yeah - I've been saying the same thing - everyone talks about colo and FF beating this - what they don't understand is that generic pvp meta loses so horribly to this that they can't ever get there. Thank you, that's exactly it. It's not possible to have enough gas to get to colloxen vs this without dying. It totally is, they just have to abuse terrain and play more defensively (after 4gate timings). They will have a very hard time breaking you in the open (after you have some voids), but you will also not be able to bust their expansion at all if they use FF and cliffwalk correctly until you get significant void numbers. You wont have enough units to 1 base coloussus vs this even if you do some how and defend against it your will be contained. Even if some does all these thing your talking about cliff walking abusing terrain etc.. Colossus hinders your mobility reason why terrans drop against colossus play so much. So like he was saying about the current meta it loses to this. In the curent meta its first push at 2 colossus. In that time he is expanding as stated in the op and still massing voids. The longer you wait the worse it gets with alot of voids. Kiwikakki does a build somewhat like this.
What? Are you going to bust up their ramp with slowlots? Are you in silver league?
also, please learn what metagame means.
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On November 29 2010 11:44 MasterReY wrote:
Colloxen ROFL
i was laughing so hard at this word haha.
i dont want to get banned so i post something about the topic ;D :
Hmm could work actually but tbh i think protoss with good micro can easily own this strat with mass stalkers and 2-3 sentries. (4gate and just waiting for you to come out ofc, not attacking against ramp)
Watch the second game, it's exactly what you said except with early stalker pressure to boot. I screwed up hard and it was close positions which is disadvantageous for this build, and it still didn't work.
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On November 29 2010 11:46 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 11:40 oZii wrote:On November 29 2010 11:22 sob3k wrote:On November 29 2010 11:19 Vauld wrote:On November 29 2010 11:05 30to1 wrote:
Yeah - I've been saying the same thing - everyone talks about colo and FF beating this - what they don't understand is that generic pvp meta loses so horribly to this that they can't ever get there. Thank you, that's exactly it. It's not possible to have enough gas to get to colloxen vs this without dying. It totally is, they just have to abuse terrain and play more defensively (after 4gate timings). They will have a very hard time breaking you in the open (after you have some voids), but you will also not be able to bust their expansion at all if they use FF and cliffwalk correctly until you get significant void numbers. You wont have enough units to 1 base coloussus vs this even if you do some how and defend against it your will be contained. Even if some does all these thing your talking about cliff walking abusing terrain etc.. Colossus hinders your mobility reason why terrans drop against colossus play so much. So like he was saying about the current meta it loses to this. In the curent meta its first push at 2 colossus. In that time he is expanding as stated in the op and still massing voids. The longer you wait the worse it gets with alot of voids. Kiwikakki does a build somewhat like this. What? Are you going to bust up their ramp with slowlots? Are you in silver league?
Lol who said anything about busting there ramp with slowlots or busting there ramp at all? Unless your one of those players that thinks all-in with every build. The voids will contain in pvp until your opponent has enough colossus to move out. Who wants 2 voids in there base? Its the same concept as mutas or or banshees as the voids snowball it gets worse. His key words are the current meta. Stop thinking allin all the time like many protoss players. The voids will give you an advantage and you will be mobile. While a colossus protoss will be immobile yea they can get there natural sure but the voids can buy you time to secure a 3rd before they do. See beyond 2 bases. 2 bases is not macro dude lol.
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On November 29 2010 11:46 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 11:40 oZii wrote:On November 29 2010 11:22 sob3k wrote:On November 29 2010 11:19 Vauld wrote:On November 29 2010 11:05 30to1 wrote:
Yeah - I've been saying the same thing - everyone talks about colo and FF beating this - what they don't understand is that generic pvp meta loses so horribly to this that they can't ever get there. Thank you, that's exactly it. It's not possible to have enough gas to get to colloxen vs this without dying. It totally is, they just have to abuse terrain and play more defensively (after 4gate timings). They will have a very hard time breaking you in the open (after you have some voids), but you will also not be able to bust their expansion at all if they use FF and cliffwalk correctly until you get significant void numbers. You wont have enough units to 1 base coloussus vs this even if you do some how and defend against it your will be contained. Even if some does all these thing your talking about cliff walking abusing terrain etc.. Colossus hinders your mobility reason why terrans drop against colossus play so much. So like he was saying about the current meta it loses to this. In the curent meta its first push at 2 colossus. In that time he is expanding as stated in the op and still massing voids. The longer you wait the worse it gets with alot of voids. Kiwikakki does a build somewhat like this. What? Are you going to bust up their ramp with slowlots? Are you in silver league? also, please learn what metagame means.
With voids and slowlots and sentries. If you see you won't be able to break it you just contain while your expo gets you further and further ahead and you mass more voids. The longer the game goes on the better this build gets. Mass voids aren't really possible to deal with as protoss without your own.
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On November 29 2010 11:49 Vauld wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 11:44 MasterReY wrote:
Colloxen ROFL
i was laughing so hard at this word haha.
i dont want to get banned so i post something about the topic ;D :
Hmm could work actually but tbh i think protoss with good micro can easily own this strat with mass stalkers and 2-3 sentries. (4gate and just waiting for you to come out ofc, not attacking against ramp) Watch the second game, it's exactly what you said except with early stalker pressure to boot. I screwed up hard and it was close positions which is disadvantageous for this build, and it still didn't work.
if he waits for YOU to attack HIM then he would prefer a large map so you need more time to attack. he can get +4-8 stalker more on bigger maps.
But ill try the build in my future PvPs :D
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On November 29 2010 11:58 MasterReY wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 11:49 Vauld wrote:On November 29 2010 11:44 MasterReY wrote:
Colloxen ROFL
i was laughing so hard at this word haha.
i dont want to get banned so i post something about the topic ;D :
Hmm could work actually but tbh i think protoss with good micro can easily own this strat with mass stalkers and 2-3 sentries. (4gate and just waiting for you to come out ofc, not attacking against ramp) Watch the second game, it's exactly what you said except with early stalker pressure to boot. I screwed up hard and it was close positions which is disadvantageous for this build, and it still didn't work. if he waits for YOU to attack HIM then he would prefer a large map so you need more time to attack. he can get +4-8 stalker more on bigger maps. But ill try the build in my future PvPs :D
Awesome, it's fun, I think you'll be surprised by how powerful it is. Also if he waits for me to attack then my army gets significantly more powerful than his. It's like his sitting on 4gate vs someone going 3gate robo, waiting is a bad idea for him.
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Watched all the replays. I learned that Zealot + Void Rays crushes pure Stalkers without good micro/blink. xD It's a bit counter-intuitive, but it seems that you actually need Zealots to delay their Zealots long enough for your Stalkers to focus down some Void Rays. Guardian shield will also reduce Void Ray damage a lot.
So basically a normal unit composition does well against it, as long as you focus fire correctly.
Look at that match on Metalopolis where your opponent 4-Gated and contained you at the ramp, then didn't make a second wave and just expanded. There was basically nothing you could do to prevent that. The reason you won that game was because of poor micro on your opponent's part and his terrible (yet hilarious) decision to make a Void Ray to combat your 4+ Void Rays.
It looks strong against Robo builds, but Stargate builds having an advantage against Robo builds is nothing new. The reason Stargate openers aren't used much at a high level is because of well-executed 3-Gate Blink or 1 Gas 4-Gate All-ins.
Here's a good 1 Gas 4-Gate All-in: Replay
It hits at around 5:50 with 2 Zealots and 5 Stalkers. At this point in your replays, you had about 3 gateway units (1 Sentry) and your Void Ray was just starting.
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I just watched 3 of your replays Vauld. Usually people like to discredit a build based upon the opponents they faced using the build. I will say that the Blink Stalker PvP your oponents macro was spot on. It was better than yours thats for sure (no offense) that right there is pretty telling about this build.
A bit of a break down of the replays I watched.
The game on Xelnaga I would say your opponent could have built more stuff his macro wasn't spectacular. He was going 2 gate robo. I don't think even if he went 3 gate he could have done anything. You had 4 voids at his base yea he didn't build alot of stuff but he was waiting for the information from his observer and by time it got to your base you already had 3 voids out. The immortals are really useless since your going basically zealot sentry Voids. You really are only getting a few sentries for key forcefields.
On lost temple where you defended the expo and where pressured hard by his stalkers that game was pretty close. I would say that as pointed out dark templar seems the best to counter this. I think that if he builds a few dark templar and sends them to your base and keeps more of his stalkers that he may win that. So its more 50/50 against DT's
The blink stalker rush on Metalopolis pretty much shows the power of this build. Yea the stalkers can blink but its almost neutralized because of the zealots are completely destroying the zealots. I think maybe a round or 2 of zealots from your opponents mixed in the with there stalkers would give them time to focus fire your voids down. Again not saying its a weakness of the build just that it would make the engagements more close to call. Sniping the cyber is almost as bad as sniping a nexus in a sense. After you lost your expo then countered and sniped his cyber it put him behind allowing you 2 re-expo. As you said protoss pretty much are only going to use stalkers for AA.
Overall thoughts:
I would say this is definitely solid build to be used in PvP. I dont think dark templar arguement is that valid yes dark templar can beat this but they can also beat 4 gate and its pretty much accepted that 4 gate is the standard Protoss build. So I still would consider this as viable as 2 gate robo or any other protoss build.
There is definitely room for much more refinement of this build for sure. There are points were you have alot of minerals and as I was watching it I was thinking to myself you could have warped in alot more zealots and probably ended many of your matches earlier. The zealots are just the meat for the voids to do there thing which is the same thing they are used for with colossus.
The common factor in all the replays is that you can tell the opponents and you are able to expand pretty safely.
I will defintely be using this build for sure.
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On November 29 2010 12:57 Shlowpoke wrote:Watched all the replays. I learned that Zealot + Void Rays crushes pure Stalkers without good micro/blink. xD It's a bit counter-intuitive, but it seems that you actually need Zealots to delay their Zealots long enough for your Stalkers to focus down some Void Rays. Guardian shield will also reduce Void Ray damage a lot. So basically a normal unit composition does well against it, as long as you focus fire correctly. Look at that match on Metalopolis where your opponent 4-Gated and contained you at the ramp, then didn't make a second wave and just expanded. There was basically nothing you could do to prevent that. The reason you won that game was because of poor micro on your opponent's part and his terrible (yet hilarious) decision to make a Void Ray to combat your 4+ Void Rays. It looks strong against Robo builds, but Stargate builds having an advantage against Robo builds is nothing new. The reason Stargate openers aren't used much at a high level is because of well-executed 3-Gate Blink or 1 Gas 4-Gate All-ins. Here's a good 1 Gas 4-Gate All-in: ReplayIt hits at around 5:50 with 2 Zealots and 5 Stalkers. At this point in your replays, you had about 3 gateway units (1 Sentry) and your Void Ray was just starting.
While agree with some of your points especially the part about the extra zealots in a pure stalker build will make it a bit tougher. If you look at his macro compared to his opponent (his being worse) and look at the times of the build you will notice that there is room for alot of improvement in this build. I didn't watch the 4 gate game.
If you look at his metaloplis game against the 4 gate rush
at 4:52 the OP has : 50 minerals : 134 gas : Starport is halfway done : Warpgate tech is NOT started.
He starts it at 5:36 after he starts the void ray there is definitely room for warpgate tech to be started before there is also some extra chrono just sitting in there to pump that first void or another gateway unit. There are holes in the execution of the replay but with refinement you should be able to see this is pretty solid.
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While powerful in the midgame, I really have to say this is ridiculously suspect to early game pushes. There's a gigantic timing window for you to be completely stomped by anything 4gate, or even the 5 stalker all-in.
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On November 29 2010 13:31 oZii wrote:There are holes in the execution of the replay but with refinement you should be able to see this is pretty solid.
I am skeptical. If you or anyone else would like to post a refined version that looks stable enough to be able to hold off some of the many crazy PvP all-ins, then by all means post away.
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Massive lol at your replay with against the 2 gate robo. That guy was just plain horrible, in chat he says he knew you were going void rays yet did not know how to respond and just sits in his base waiting for your push with 1k+ minerals in the trust fund doing nothing.
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This sounds really cool. I'll note that you should get hammered by a Phoenix opening, since Phoenix defeat Voids straight-up at a lower price, are faster, and can kill your Sentries (or raid your probe lines) much more easily than your Void Rays can kill his. Which makes me curious - Phoenix and Void Ray take the exact same tech, so there's no cost to mix them... when would you rather build one or the other? Pure Void Ray may not be ideal, whereas Phoenixes can chase down your opponent's Stalkers (which are faster than Zealot/Sentry/Void) but don't have the Void Ray's range and anti-armored DPS...
You might consider reacting with a Phoenix before Void Rays against builds that show a tech building to your scouting probe. If the opponent isn't gateway rushing, you should be safe to do so, and the scouting + graviton energy is pretty keen. (Plus, the lower cost of the Phoenix might help you get your buildings or +1 Air Weapons up faster.)
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I just beat a few rushes similar to this a few times in a row going 4gate. My first push usually gets beat, I retreat, boost out the proper unit mix, and go back in.
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On November 29 2010 14:06 Severedevil wrote:
This sounds really cool. I'll note that you should get hammered by a Phoenix opening, since Phoenix defeat Voids straight-up at a lower price, are faster, and can kill your Sentries (or raid your probe lines) much more easily than your Void Rays can kill his. Which makes me curious - Phoenix and Void Ray take the exact same tech, so there's no cost to mix them... when would you rather build one or the other? Pure Void Ray may not be ideal, whereas Phoenixes can chase down your opponent's Stalkers (which are faster than Zealot/Sentry/Void) but don't have the Void Ray's range and anti-armored DPS...
You might consider reacting with a Phoenix before Void Rays against builds that show a tech building to your scouting probe. If the opponent isn't gateway rushing, you should be safe to do so, and the scouting + graviton energy is pretty keen. (Plus, the lower cost of the Phoenix might help you get your buildings or +1 Air Weapons up faster.)
If you can get there, phoenix+void+zealot is a deadly combo. 5 phoenixes and 2 voids basically beats equal if not larger resources of stalkers. Phoenixes lift up the stalkers while voids focus them down. The remainder of the stalkers will have to deal with zealots. From there, it's ez pickings. Blink can't solve this as at least 5 will be caught by the phoenixes.
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Just had this build done to me.
I went 2 gate colossus, had a slightly slower expo.
i saw the first 1-2 voids and went pure stalkers / colossus. When we engaged i had blink upgraded.
Maybe 4-5 colossus / 14ish stalkers 10 zealots and some sentries, vs 7 or so void rays, 2 immortals(which melt stalkers), and a mostly zealot.
He focused down my stalkers, and i died. I was quite surprised. I didnt expect a void ray army, so much as a few thrown in..... I got rolled.
In hindsight, Had i been more proactive with observers I should have cut colossus, and gone something more like pure stalkers. And also push when he only had 2-3 instead of letting him get to 7+.
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I believe that scouting is really important in this build, especially denying scouts and leaving the scout in the base the whole time. Overall i love this build and have been using it since.
I will check out the replay later when I get back home from classes ;X
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I like to do pretty much this build in PvP, much more interesting than playing the Colloxen/4Gate game most Protoss do. Early defense is really scary and razer thin with this build, but it has a very strong midgame vs Robo or Blink stalker armies because most of them will depend so much on stalkers, which are just terrible units. I won my last 2 PvP's against one of each of those builds pretty convincingly at ~1700 diamond so it's at least not a terrible strategy. I do wonder how much of a future it has though since I've never seen it in any tournaments.
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I watched all of the replays, definitely gonna try this out next time in PvP. Seemed like with perfect macro you could have gotten a lot more zealots in most of the games too. I don't mean that as an insult, if anything that speaks to the viability of the build, as someone else said in the thread.
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Hey Vauld can I try playing you a few games. I'm like 2400 protoss though.
slained.778, your id?
edit: watched a couple of your reps, I think your opponents especially the one with blink build didn't really micro properly against VRs, in his case he always blinked away instead of towards and kite the VRs while moving away from the zealots. I don't think you should ever win against a proper blink build
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I actually don't think the void rays are what are winning this build, rather it is the heavy zealot force or the combination zealot/void ray that is winning. The void rays themselves are not amazing cost for cost against stalkers, but zealots in range are and what is happening is that the opponent has to choose kill the zealots and die to fully charged void rays or focus fire void rays while getting raped by zealots. In a normal stalker/sentry/zealot army, if these engage you want to kill the zealots first since stalkers aren't that great of dps if left alone, but because void rays are actually a threat when left alone, it entices the opponent to focus the void rays first which make their stalkers mince meat for the zealots. Once you have enough void rays (4-5) they scale significantly faster than stalkers because of their charge ability and ability to stack.
Now the question is how to transition. I like the idea of making 2 zealots, 4 sentries, 2 void rays and then expanding. After that maybe transitioning into charge and void ray speed, and shield upgrade (to benefit the zealots and void rays). Once you can get a third base then start getting stalkers and carriers? I need to see a pro use this build first.
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Saw the replays, voids are one of my fav units and I have had success against stalkers, but if they get blink like mentioned, ur gone. would help if u could get charge on zeals, the stalkers cant skite ur voids..does this work agasint zerg and terran? I mean if stalkers are AA so are marines..
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Kiwikaki does this together with immortals (2 gate robo stargate) which seems much more stable to me - the immortals somewhat "counter" blink-stalkers which should crush your build, if done by a competent player.
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I was working on a strategy similar to this before 1.1.2 came out. But I found that since then it loses very hard to stalker micro or phoenix/colossus, because you cannot charge the Voids on your buildings, and they do too little damage to un-armored units. I estimate this build will work up until the 2400 diamond range.
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Seems interesting, and doesn't have any glaring weaknesses, as I like to upgrade relatively early in mirror matchups, so I can make cannons for DTs. I'll give it a go.
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308 Posts
The build loses to stalkers. Tried it. It won't work well
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Thanks for all of the comments everyone! And now for specific replies.
@oZii
+ Show Spoiler +On November 29 2010 13:16 oZii wrote:
I just watched 3 of your replays Vauld. Usually people like to discredit a build based upon the opponents they faced using the build. I will say that the Blink Stalker PvP your oponents macro was spot on. It was better than yours thats for sure (no offense) that right there is pretty telling about this build.
A bit of a break down of the replays I watched.
The game on Xelnaga I would say your opponent could have built more stuff his macro wasn't spectacular. He was going 2 gate robo. I don't think even if he went 3 gate he could have done anything. You had 4 voids at his base yea he didn't build alot of stuff but he was waiting for the information from his observer and by time it got to your base you already had 3 voids out. The immortals are really useless since your going basically zealot sentry Voids. You really are only getting a few sentries for key forcefields.
On lost temple where you defended the expo and where pressured hard by his stalkers that game was pretty close. I would say that as pointed out dark templar seems the best to counter this. I think that if he builds a few dark templar and sends them to your base and keeps more of his stalkers that he may win that. So its more 50/50 against DT's
The blink stalker rush on Metalopolis pretty much shows the power of this build. Yea the stalkers can blink but its almost neutralized because of the zealots are completely destroying the zealots. I think maybe a round or 2 of zealots from your opponents mixed in the with there stalkers would give them time to focus fire your voids down. Again not saying its a weakness of the build just that it would make the engagements more close to call. Sniping the cyber is almost as bad as sniping a nexus in a sense. After you lost your expo then countered and sniped his cyber it put him behind allowing you 2 re-expo. As you said protoss pretty much are only going to use stalkers for AA.
Overall thoughts:
I would say this is definitely solid build to be used in PvP. I dont think dark templar arguement is that valid yes dark templar can beat this but they can also beat 4 gate and its pretty much accepted that 4 gate is the standard Protoss build. So I still would consider this as viable as 2 gate robo or any other protoss build.
There is definitely room for much more refinement of this build for sure. There are points were you have alot of minerals and as I was watching it I was thinking to myself you could have warped in alot more zealots and probably ended many of your matches earlier. The zealots are just the meat for the voids to do there thing which is the same thing they are used for with colossus.
The common factor in all the replays is that you can tell the opponents and you are able to expand pretty safely.
I will defintely be using this build for sure. Thanks oZii, appreciate the compliments, that's exactly what I was thinking, my macro isn't perfect, there are a lot of opportunities to fine tune this, and I'm still beating people much better than I with it. Have fun and let me know how it goes for you.
@Shlowpoke
+ Show Spoiler +On November 29 2010 12:57 Shlowpoke wrote:Watched all the replays. I learned that Zealot + Void Rays crushes pure Stalkers without good micro/blink. xD It's a bit counter-intuitive, but it seems that you actually need Zealots to delay their Zealots long enough for your Stalkers to focus down some Void Rays. Guardian shield will also reduce Void Ray damage a lot. So basically a normal unit composition does well against it, as long as you focus fire correctly. Look at that match on Metalopolis where your opponent 4-Gated and contained you at the ramp, then didn't make a second wave and just expanded. There was basically nothing you could do to prevent that. The reason you won that game was because of poor micro on your opponent's part and his terrible (yet hilarious) decision to make a Void Ray to combat your 4+ Void Rays. It looks strong against Robo builds, but Stargate builds having an advantage against Robo builds is nothing new. The reason Stargate openers aren't used much at a high level is because of well-executed 3-Gate Blink or 1 Gas 4-Gate All-ins. Here's a good 1 Gas 4-Gate All-in: ReplayIt hits at around 5:50 with 2 Zealots and 5 Stalkers. At this point in your replays, you had about 3 gateway units (1 Sentry) and your Void Ray was just starting. I think you forget the power of good ff's. I've had a lot of opponents try all inning me, feel free to give it a go if you'd like to test yours, my tag is SolidVauld.254
@BenKen
+ Show Spoiler +On November 29 2010 16:58 BenKen wrote:
I watched all of the replays, definitely gonna try this out next time in PvP. Seemed like with perfect macro you could have gotten a lot more zealots in most of the games too. I don't mean that as an insult, if anything that speaks to the viability of the build, as someone else said in the thread. Yeah I'd like to see how people could improve it to do just that, my macro isn't perfect, especially since I tend to fall into the trap of watching battles too much.
@slained
+ Show Spoiler +On November 29 2010 17:26 slained wrote:
Hey Vauld can I try playing you a few games. I'm like 2400 protoss though.
slained.778, your id?
edit: watched a couple of your reps, I think your opponents especially the one with blink build didn't really micro properly against VRs, in his case he always blinked away instead of towards and kite the VRs while moving away from the zealots. I don't think you should ever win against a proper blink build Definitely, it's SolidVauld.254. I have had people try blinking towards instead of away, it usually turns out to be worse for them, as they get attacked by all of the zealots at that point, but they were lower on the ladder. I'm usually on in the evenings, in particular I'll probably be on next Tuesday night after the Daily.
@darmousseh
+ Show Spoiler +On November 29 2010 18:57 darmousseh wrote:
I actually don't think the void rays are what are winning this build, rather it is the heavy zealot force or the combination zealot/void ray that is winning. The void rays themselves are not amazing cost for cost against stalkers, but zealots in range are and what is happening is that the opponent has to choose kill the zealots and die to fully charged void rays or focus fire void rays while getting raped by zealots. In a normal stalker/sentry/zealot army, if these engage you want to kill the zealots first since stalkers aren't that great of dps if left alone, but because void rays are actually a threat when left alone, it entices the opponent to focus the void rays first which make their stalkers mince meat for the zealots. Once you have enough void rays (4-5) they scale significantly faster than stalkers because of their charge ability and ability to stack.
Now the question is how to transition. I like the idea of making 2 zealots, 4 sentries, 2 void rays and then expanding. After that maybe transitioning into charge and void ray speed, and shield upgrade (to benefit the zealots and void rays). Once you can get a third base then start getting stalkers and carriers? I need to see a pro use this build first. Yeah I find that although the Void Rays do work well, it is the zealots that make it truly powerful, especially if I get good ff's off. The Voids force them into heavy stalkers as well as make the Stalkers have to try targeting the Voids and get beat by the zealot/Void combo, or try to dance around taking out zealots and I build up a critical mass of Voids. Also Stalkers are so expensive if they haven't already expo'd they can't really do it if I keep pressure on without dying. I usually transition into Voidray speed and +air weapons and I grab charge later on. With speed even Blink stalkers cannot run away, and I don't know any protoss composition that can take this in high numbers.
@GoldenH
+ Show Spoiler +On November 30 2010 01:44 GoldenH wrote:
I was working on a strategy similar to this before 1.1.2 came out. But I found that since then it loses very hard to stalker micro or phoenix/colossus, because you cannot charge the Voids on your buildings, and they do too little damage to un-armored units. I estimate this build will work up until the 2400 diamond range. This wouldn't have worked pre 1.1.2, after 1.1.2 uncharged voids do twice as much dps as before. They have about twice the dps of Stalkers vs armored, and combined with zealots I haven't lost to any build yet, but I would also like to see how it handles when done by pros (or high diamonds). Also, Phoenix Collosus should never be able to be reached by them if you're doing this build right.
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On November 30 2010 03:48 ScythedBlade wrote:
The build loses to stalkers. Tried it. It won't work well
Did you watch ANY of the replays? Every replay except the 2 gate robo is pure Stalker compositions I'm facing. If you're confident you're doing the build right post the reps so I can see what happened and we can see what the problem is.
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Can you post replays of you beating these 2200 protoss players?
Honestly, this build looks like it won't work. Voidray is gas expensive, and so are forcefields. Stalkers beat voidrays per cost in fights, and colossus can break forcefields and rape zealots. I see Stalker/sentry/zealot/colossus beating this with relative ease.
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On November 30 2010 04:08 Vauld wrote:@GoldenH + Show Spoiler +On November 30 2010 01:44 GoldenH wrote:
I was working on a strategy similar to this before 1.1.2 came out. But I found that since then it loses very hard to stalker micro or phoenix/colossus, because you cannot charge the Voids on your buildings, and they do too little damage to un-armored units. I estimate this build will work up until the 2400 diamond range. This wouldn't have worked pre 1.1.2, after 1.1.2 uncharged voids do twice as much dps as before. They have about twice the dps of Stalkers vs armored, and combined with zealots I haven't lost to any build yet, but I would also like to see how it handles when done by pros (or high diamonds). Also, Phoenix Collosus should never be able to be reached by them if you're doing this build right.
Nah, actually it was reasonable pre-1.1.2, charging was not a problem if you had good scouting and the dps has decreased so that you cannot beat pure stalker with VR+zealot any longer. Throw in some phoenix to lift retreating stalkers and you're good. Previously keeping the VRs charged was a challenge but if you couldn't move out you could safely transition and expand. Now you just die.
On November 30 2010 04:10 Vauld wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 03:48 ScythedBlade wrote:
The build loses to stalkers. Tried it. It won't work well Did you watch ANY of the replays? Every replay except the 2 gate robo is pure Stalker compositions I'm facing. If you're confident you're doing the build right post the reps so I can see what happened and we can see what the problem is.
Your opponents have terrible micro, letting zealots run over their stalkers.. so sad. In the blink stalker replay he actually loses 20 stalkers before he starts to do any micro at all (and doing terribly), and there was just no coming back from that.
Stick with the build if you want some wins while you learn mid/lategame, but it'll be a dead end, you'll find that there is nothing you can do to improve this build, and you will have to abandon it once you consistently fight good opponents.
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On November 30 2010 04:21 Kiarip wrote:
Can you post replays of you beating these 2200 protoss players?
Honestly, this build looks like it won't work. Voidray is gas expensive, and so are forcefields. Stalkers beat voidrays per cost in fights, and colossus can break forcefields and rape zealots. I see Stalker/sentry/zealot/colossus beating this with relative ease.
The vs Blink Stalker rep is against a 2200 Diamond
The vs Early Stalker into 4 gate Stalker rep is against a 1700 Diamond
The vs 4 Gate into Expo rep is against a 1800 Diamond
Collosus can't ever get out against this build, if they rush straight to them they'll straight up die as their Stalker count is so low. Once I start my first push they have to pump constant Stalkers to have a chance at surviving, so the Collosus will never get out, especially in numbers. 2 or 3 gate robo is a build order loss against this. In regards to the gas cost, I get one sentry really early and another somewhere around when my second void is building, the voids even with one chrono per void constant production gives you excess gas with three miners per geyser, so I can add more later, although once I expo which I do while pushing I have gas to play with, even with two stargates constant production with chronos.
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LOL a 2200 diamond really?
This really shows how much the points have inflated since release.
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On November 30 2010 04:32 GoldenH wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 04:08 Vauld wrote:@GoldenH + Show Spoiler +On November 30 2010 01:44 GoldenH wrote:
I was working on a strategy similar to this before 1.1.2 came out. But I found that since then it loses very hard to stalker micro or phoenix/colossus, because you cannot charge the Voids on your buildings, and they do too little damage to un-armored units. I estimate this build will work up until the 2400 diamond range. This wouldn't have worked pre 1.1.2, after 1.1.2 uncharged voids do twice as much dps as before. They have about twice the dps of Stalkers vs armored, and combined with zealots I haven't lost to any build yet, but I would also like to see how it handles when done by pros (or high diamonds). Also, Phoenix Collosus should never be able to be reached by them if you're doing this build right. Nah, actually it was reasonable pre-1.1.2, charging was not a problem if you had good scouting and the dps has decreased so that you cannot beat pure stalker with VR+zealot any longer. Throw in some phoenix to lift retreating stalkers and you're good. Previously keeping the VRs charged was a challenge but if you couldn't move out you could safely transition and expand. Now you just die. Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 04:10 Vauld wrote:On November 30 2010 03:48 ScythedBlade wrote:
The build loses to stalkers. Tried it. It won't work well Did you watch ANY of the replays? Every replay except the 2 gate robo is pure Stalker compositions I'm facing. If you're confident you're doing the build right post the reps so I can see what happened and we can see what the problem is. Your opponents have terrible micro, letting zealots run over their stalkers.. so sad. In the blink stalker replay he actually loses 20 stalkers before he starts to do any micro at all (and doing terribly), and there was just no coming back from that. Stick with the build if you want some wins while you learn mid/lategame, but it'll be a dead end, you'll find that there is nothing you can do to improve this build, and you will have to abandon it once you consistently fight good opponents.
In my experience they either let the Zealots or the Voids run over their Stalkers, there is no other option. I've always thought Stalkers were a bit weak, although after the buff that made them 10+4 instead of 8+6 they're not as bad, their main advantage is movement speed. Pure Zealot Sentry does quite decently against Stalker as is with good ff's, the Voids just make it much stronger and allow it to do great against any Protoss composition (Against T and Z is a different story...)
If you want to try facing my 950 pt Diamond self to show me how your Stalker micro will do against it feel free to, I'm SolidVauld.254. Keep in mind that as it is my micro and macro leave alot more to be desired than my opponent's in most of the reps I posted. Next time I go online and get some games in I'll try to post some more reps, although I can only face really high opponents in Customs.
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i really cant see that winning vs either collossus stalker or pure blinkstalkers, your zealots wont hit them, and voidrays are bad enough to lose to stalkers. cant watch the reps though atm
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On November 30 2010 04:51 ensis wrote:
i really cant see that winning vs either collossus stalker or pure blinkstalkers, your zealots wont hit them, and voidrays are bad enough to lose to stalkers. cant watch the reps though atm
Check out the reps and test it out yourself, it works quite well. Collosus never get out without a straight rush to them, and that dies to your first push. Pure blinkers is the build that is my biggest worry, you'd think it would kill it but I've run into it a few times and always prevailed. The key is keeping the zealots and voids together, the voids can always shoot the stalkers if the stalkers can shoot them, and they do decently against stalkers (especially since the voids stack), and good zealot positioning makes the stalkers melt for attempting to hit the voids (good ff's as well, esp. pre blink).
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On November 30 2010 04:49 Vauld wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 04:32 GoldenH wrote:On November 30 2010 04:08 Vauld wrote:@GoldenH + Show Spoiler +On November 30 2010 01:44 GoldenH wrote:
I was working on a strategy similar to this before 1.1.2 came out. But I found that since then it loses very hard to stalker micro or phoenix/colossus, because you cannot charge the Voids on your buildings, and they do too little damage to un-armored units. I estimate this build will work up until the 2400 diamond range. This wouldn't have worked pre 1.1.2, after 1.1.2 uncharged voids do twice as much dps as before. They have about twice the dps of Stalkers vs armored, and combined with zealots I haven't lost to any build yet, but I would also like to see how it handles when done by pros (or high diamonds). Also, Phoenix Collosus should never be able to be reached by them if you're doing this build right. Nah, actually it was reasonable pre-1.1.2, charging was not a problem if you had good scouting and the dps has decreased so that you cannot beat pure stalker with VR+zealot any longer. Throw in some phoenix to lift retreating stalkers and you're good. Previously keeping the VRs charged was a challenge but if you couldn't move out you could safely transition and expand. Now you just die. On November 30 2010 04:10 Vauld wrote:On November 30 2010 03:48 ScythedBlade wrote:
The build loses to stalkers. Tried it. It won't work well Did you watch ANY of the replays? Every replay except the 2 gate robo is pure Stalker compositions I'm facing. If you're confident you're doing the build right post the reps so I can see what happened and we can see what the problem is. Your opponents have terrible micro, letting zealots run over their stalkers.. so sad. In the blink stalker replay he actually loses 20 stalkers before he starts to do any micro at all (and doing terribly), and there was just no coming back from that. Stick with the build if you want some wins while you learn mid/lategame, but it'll be a dead end, you'll find that there is nothing you can do to improve this build, and you will have to abandon it once you consistently fight good opponents. In my experience they either let the Zealots or the Voids run over their Stalkers, there is no other option. I've always thought Stalkers were a bit weak, although after the buff that made them 10+4 instead of 8+6 they're not as bad, their main advantage is movement speed. Pure Zealot Sentry does quite decently against Stalker as is with good ff's, the Voids just make it much stronger and allow it to do great against any Protoss composition (Against T and Z is a different story...) If you want to try facing my 950 pt Diamond self to show me how your Stalker micro will do against it feel free to, I'm SolidVauld.254. Keep in mind that as it is my micro and macro leave alot more to be desired than my opponent's in most of the reps I posted. Next time I go online and get some games in I'll try to post some more reps, although I can only face really high opponents in Customs.
are you really only 950 pts?
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I watched the blink stalker replay, the first you posted.
I think this whole build you've shown is really just a testament to how the void rays should be used post 1.1.2. Previously void rays were valuable only when they were fully charged, thus making them more like surgical strike craft; they were good for rushes and early game, and good late game to just throw a couple into an enemy base during a big battle. Now however, they are much better off as a part of an army composition since they have much more burst damage due to the level one stage buff.
I saw a recent game in GSL 3 where that one guinea pig player had a collosus void ray build (we jokingly in the re-stream called it the "laser build") that rolled over zerg players.
I'm saying that I think the void ray should now be used more as a part of an army composition rather than it's previous lone base-wrecking style of use. I think the success of your early stargate is due to the fact that the void rays have pretty great burst damage, and can't be targeted by zealots. Also, in order for ground units to engage your void rays, if you have zealots underneath then your army's damage output will be really strong vs early game ground compositions; in order for stalkers to engage the voids they risk running into zealots.
Since voidrays are so vespene intensive I suggest getting a forge and a cannon immediately after expoing for insurance. This cannon is used in PvP by Day9 and Adelscott ( http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4099940/ ). The cannon shouldn't be much an issue since you'll have excess minerals.
I would say that it looks like you're going to really need some zealots and a couple stalkers and a sentry, so you'll definitely always want 2 gates maybe 3 before you expand.
A lot of people have been retorting in that in PvP proper blink micro would wreck this, but honestly proper micro of the zealots and the void rays should do excellent as well. Worst case scenario, stalkers blink directly under your void rays, but, you should have quite a few zealots under there and the stalker army should take at least as much damage as it deals.
I'm hoping a realization that void rays are great within an army (relative to pre-1.1.2) will help develop more methods of gaining an economic advantage against a 4 gate without much threat of dieing to an early 4 gate push. You must be doing something right if you are beating players over double your current points.
Edit: Also, I think it would be good to incorporate charge zlots once your expo is decently saturated. It may also be easy to just go carrier once your third is up since you already should have stargates and void rays, and zealots to compliment them.
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Stalker micro really isn't my strong point, but I can at least demonstrate what has been done to me, I'll throw you an invite sometime tonight.
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On November 30 2010 05:01 ensis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 04:49 Vauld wrote:On November 30 2010 04:32 GoldenH wrote:On November 30 2010 04:08 Vauld wrote:@GoldenH + Show Spoiler +On November 30 2010 01:44 GoldenH wrote:
I was working on a strategy similar to this before 1.1.2 came out. But I found that since then it loses very hard to stalker micro or phoenix/colossus, because you cannot charge the Voids on your buildings, and they do too little damage to un-armored units. I estimate this build will work up until the 2400 diamond range. This wouldn't have worked pre 1.1.2, after 1.1.2 uncharged voids do twice as much dps as before. They have about twice the dps of Stalkers vs armored, and combined with zealots I haven't lost to any build yet, but I would also like to see how it handles when done by pros (or high diamonds). Also, Phoenix Collosus should never be able to be reached by them if you're doing this build right. Nah, actually it was reasonable pre-1.1.2, charging was not a problem if you had good scouting and the dps has decreased so that you cannot beat pure stalker with VR+zealot any longer. Throw in some phoenix to lift retreating stalkers and you're good. Previously keeping the VRs charged was a challenge but if you couldn't move out you could safely transition and expand. Now you just die. On November 30 2010 04:10 Vauld wrote:On November 30 2010 03:48 ScythedBlade wrote:
The build loses to stalkers. Tried it. It won't work well Did you watch ANY of the replays? Every replay except the 2 gate robo is pure Stalker compositions I'm facing. If you're confident you're doing the build right post the reps so I can see what happened and we can see what the problem is. Your opponents have terrible micro, letting zealots run over their stalkers.. so sad. In the blink stalker replay he actually loses 20 stalkers before he starts to do any micro at all (and doing terribly), and there was just no coming back from that. Stick with the build if you want some wins while you learn mid/lategame, but it'll be a dead end, you'll find that there is nothing you can do to improve this build, and you will have to abandon it once you consistently fight good opponents. In my experience they either let the Zealots or the Voids run over their Stalkers, there is no other option. I've always thought Stalkers were a bit weak, although after the buff that made them 10+4 instead of 8+6 they're not as bad, their main advantage is movement speed. Pure Zealot Sentry does quite decently against Stalker as is with good ff's, the Voids just make it much stronger and allow it to do great against any Protoss composition (Against T and Z is a different story...) If you want to try facing my 950 pt Diamond self to show me how your Stalker micro will do against it feel free to, I'm SolidVauld.254. Keep in mind that as it is my micro and macro leave alot more to be desired than my opponent's in most of the reps I posted. Next time I go online and get some games in I'll try to post some more reps, although I can only face really high opponents in Customs. are you really only 950 pts?
Yeah, I have over 1200 Bonus Pool, I don't play 1v1 ladder that much right now with Uni (I'm only 40-19). Most of the time I end up playing 2v2's with friends or Custom Games, both for warm ups and a lot vs my friends. Also I was playing in Beta since about patch 5, and I was in the top division every reset, I don't mass game enough though.
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On November 30 2010 05:08 CecilSunkure wrote:I watched the blink stalker replay, the first you posted. I think this whole build you've shown is really just a testament to how the void rays should be used post 1.1.2. Previously void rays were valuable only when they were fully charged, thus making them more like surgical strike craft; they were good for rushes and early game, and good late game to just throw a couple into an enemy base during a big battle. Now however, they are much better off as a part of an army composition since they have much more burst damage due to the level one stage buff. I saw a recent game in GSL 3 where that one guinea pig player had a collosus void ray build (we jokingly in the re-stream called it the "laser build") that rolled over zerg players. I'm saying that I think the void ray should now be used more as a part of an army composition rather than it's previous lone base-wrecking style of use. I think the success of your early stargate is due to the fact that the void rays have pretty great burst damage, and can't be targeted by zealots. Also, in order for ground units to engage your void rays, if you have zealots underneath then your army's damage output will be really strong vs early game ground compositions; in order for stalkers to engage the voids they risk running into zealots. Since voidrays are so vespene intensive I suggest getting a forge and a cannon immediately after expoing for insurance. This cannon is used in PvP by Day9 and Adelscott ( http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4099940/ ). The cannon shouldn't be much an issue since you'll have excess minerals. I would say that it looks like you're going to really need some zealots and a couple stalkers and a sentry, so you'll definitely always want 2 gates maybe 3 before you expand. A lot of people have been retorting in that in PvP proper blink micro would wreck this, but honestly proper micro of the zealots and the void rays should do excellent as well. Worst case scenario, stalkers blink directly under your void rays, but, you should have quite a few zealots under there and the stalker army should take at least as much damage as it deals. I'm hoping a realization that void rays are great within an army (relative to pre-1.1.2) will help develop more methods of gaining an economic advantage against a 4 gate without much threat of dieing to an early 4 gate push.
My thoughts exactly, and my experience agrees with it as well, they're a great army unit vs P, and pretty decent vs Z later on (my luck vs T fluctuates a lot, I'm reserving judgement).
On November 30 2010 05:08 CecilSunkure wrote:You must be doing something right if you are beating players over double your current points.
Thanks, although that also has to do with my having so many 2v2 and custom games under my belt (Also I was playing in Beta since somewhere around patch 5, and I was in the top division every time at varying points)
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I'll try this out soon with my practice partners and post up some replays. I'm currently top 2k players in the US. Actually I just did the math, and if I have a 53% win ratio, if I played till my bonus pool was empty I would be ranked #1500 in the US with 2150 points.
Anyways, I'm just excited that I realized that voids might be able to break the PvP 4 gate stalemate, but then again I'm probably just getting my hopes up =P
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should work pretty well in low numbers, wonder how it would work against phoenix play, i mean phoenix are really superior in every way to this unit composition. But it would be interesting to see if you can hold the early push with the voidrays with it (because phoenix need energie to do damage vs ground). Hope this build will become ladder standard, so i have something new to play against.
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Against an agressive four gate you would have 3 warp gates 4 zealots a sentry and a void ray against 5 zealots and 7-8 stalkers. I don't see that working out too well for you, although assuming you lock me out, warp in another sentry to buy 30 seconds total to get 2 more zealots you still would be having a problem.
Against robo openers this seems superior.
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This is a very strong build, voids are just strong as hell vs stalkers if you keep them alive. 3/3 so far. I've used a lot of voids vs terran but haven't given it much of a test in pvp.
Good forcefields are crucial, ill post some reps after class
My take:
Don't keep just making zealot sentry void ray, Add in stalkers once you have too many zealots to properly engage a choke. You are going to get FF'ed and you need to be dealing damage still so throw in a few stalkers once you have enough sentries and can spare some gas.
Its fun as hell too ^^
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Wow ur opponents failed so hard.
I still will try to test this out. But that you beat an opponent who stores up 1400 minerals isnt really that helpfull.
Just one game with bad opponents i guess.
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Im so impressed by this build. I have tried it once or twice and I really like it. Its looking like im going stargate as my standard opening on most maps with all three matchups these days. Great for phoenix harass against zerg and harass against terran, and now voids against protoss. I love the mobility and map control i get with stargate. Plus I usually drop a forge to stop cloak threat and to help defend while i harass. Kind of similar to what terrans do with PF. Much more fun to play with as well rather than having an a-move robo-gateway unit ball. Ive even tried carriers once or twice late game and ive been impressed with their effectiveness. Maybe some day ill go mothership too. :D
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I messed around with voids a lot in PvP especially before the latest patch. They used to be pretty imba on Desert Oasis where you could charge up on their gas very easy. Combined with a 2-pronged attack from their ramp it was hard to stop.
Nowadays they are used more as a compliment to your army and the build certainly has its merits vs those who quick-tech colossi. The problem lies in the fact that nobody really quick techs to colossi anymore and that there are better ways to punish such players. Another issue I think is that you will get run over by AFAIK the 2 most popular PvP builds atm which are 4-gate and blink stalkers.
I think if your goal is to just win every game you can then I'm not sure this build is really for you. If you just like having fun and trying different stuff then this can be fun. I think it's pretty safe to say it is viable at all levels below high diamond.
edit: I do remember having massive issues with FF's when pushing with zealot/VR mix. Sure if you are lucky enough to FF behind their stalkers you can prevent retreat (which is pretty hard given stalker range and speed and blink), but they can just FF in front of them to cripple your zealot DPS.
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Ok I've added you Mr Vauld, ready to show you whenever you like.
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Glad people are liking it, and glad to hear some success from people. I really enjoy this build, it's quite fun, and a nice change of pace from the usual 4-gate or war of the worlds that PvP usually is.
@Skyro
I find 4Gate and Blink Stalkers both have put me under pressure and have definitely made me earn my win (any robo build has straight died against my first push), but neither is a guaranteed loss (In fact I have yet to lose to either using this). I'm curious how people would be able to do at high levels however.
About the FFing to block your zealots out: Every sentry is two less stalkers so my voids have less danger, and ff'ing that way just means I run away and reengage with a bigger force.
I don't usually cut off their whole force with ff, usually only parts when it's even possible, but it usually is when they're trying to focus the voids, at which point i can just run my voids away and let my zealots demolish the stalkers.
@GoldenH
I'm currently out working on a Chem assignment and two Lab Reports, I'll try to go on later tonight, but I may not be able to until Wednesday night.
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On November 29 2010 11:22 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 11:19 Vauld wrote:On November 29 2010 11:05 30to1 wrote:
Yeah - I've been saying the same thing - everyone talks about colo and FF beating this - what they don't understand is that generic pvp meta loses so horribly to this that they can't ever get there. Thank you, that's exactly it. It's not possible to have enough gas to get to colloxen vs this without dying. It totally is, they just have to abuse terrain and play more defensively (after 4gate timings). They will have a very hard time breaking you in the open (after you have some voids), but you will also not be able to bust their expansion at all if they use FF and cliffwalk correctly until you get significant void numbers.
yeah and in the mean time? they cant bust out cause you can hold them in while you take the map. plus void ray harass, while not extremely effective, is very annoying. unless you have amazing micro its gonna do some damage while you GET those significant void ray numbers and trounce him
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I find that if they go 2 gate robo fe or 3 gate robo all in, this build works extremely well. I think people are getting too worked over about void rays when the majority of the damage comes from your zealots. Although I've won my last 3 pvp's, I still feel really uneasy if someone were to actually land decent forcefields against my zeals. I'm still only Platinum, but it seems to be a nice alternative to the repetitive openers in pvp.
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This build works great. Timing push with 3 voids. Stalkers are NOT that good against voids with the zealots slicing through them. Use the voids as bait, the zealots are as much the dps in this build as the void rays are. They won't have more than one collosus at the time you push out. I have yet to lose with this strat. This works really well against robo builds, or, counter-intuitively stalker heavy builds, as without zealots as meat, your zealots will rip through the stalkers as they try to micro to kill your void rays. I like the psychological effect of void rays as it seems they will do anything to focus them down. Use that to your advantage and micro them back letting the zealots slice away the stalkers trying to work their way through.
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This build is actually very good in mid/lategame if you can get to it, but your early defense is really really weak. There are variations of 4gate attacks that get a whole lot of units out BEFORE finishing warpgate research.
Those builds beat you 100%.
At the moment you are doing just fine because the "normal" 4gate and 2/3 gate robo builds which are very dominant in US/EU are missing that huge early timing window they have.
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Yeah I think the strenght of this build is that your opponent needs to run from the zealots, which allows your rays to get charged, or that he tries to kill your rays as fast as possible and just gets
sliced in half by the sick Zealot Dps. Because Zealots are still soo strong if ur opponent doesnt melt them before they can do anything, and on the other hand nearly everyone is paranoid about charged void rays.
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Well, as has been mentioned before, the guy who 4 gated (but not rushed) into expand had the game won. All he had to do was a cut a few probes, focus on units to deflect the oncoming push since he can scout that you have no expand going up - and make constant probes after your expand starts.
Also, in that game I'm pretty sure you would have just died outright to a 4 gate push with constantly chronoed cyber, just have to build 4 pylons into an arrangement such that 1 of them can be hit only by range, aka your one stalker. And even if I cant due to anti build pylon micro, still don't think you would've held, since you had no gateway production ability really.
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Zealot/Voidray is very strong, mainly due to the general terribleness of stalkers vs. both those units and the lack of other protoss AA. That said, this build looks very very weak in the early game - none of your opponents knew how to properly 4wg rush or micro their stalkers, and in both the blink stalker replay and the 4wg-> expand replay, I feel there were several moments where a more experienced player would have just won.
In particular, I don't see how this build can hold off either the 4wg rush (of any variety), or 3 gate blink stalkers. Both will hit with overwhelming force compared to your initial army, and have wayyy better reinforcement options. In fact, a 4wg build might even be able to get away with just mass zealots - they kill your zealots, then go for your mineral line. Voidrays kill zealots very slowly, and the base armor on zealots really impacts the voidray damage output. It will take a charged voidray ~12.3 seconds to kill one zealot, which is quite a lot of time for even small groups of zealots to wreck things.
The lack of detection also worries me a little. If you aren't being aggressive enough to notice a DT rushers lack of gas units, your going to get wrecked. This is also the natural followup to any blink stalker play in case the blink stalkers don't kill you themselves.
In zealot/voidray, I think charge is going to be a super critical upgrade as well. Without charge, zealots can get kited (and endlessly mocked by blink stalkers) or FFed out of the fight while stalkers deal with the voidrays. Charge gets the zealots in fast enough that its hard to forcefield them out (baring a pre-FF, in which case you just wait it out anyway), and their move speed is bumped up high enough that stalkers can't reallyyyy stutter step without getting stabbed. Similarly, +1 air on the voidrays is very critical as the game goes on, as they scale phenomenally better than stalkers do when shooting at armored targets.
I don't know, I love voidrays, but 1gate stargate is just very very ballsy in PvP. I'll try it out though, I've been on tilt in PvP again (korean 4wg x8 in a row hahaha /wrists), so having something new to screw around with will be fun at least.
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On November 30 2010 11:56 MalVortex wrote:
and in both the blink stalker replay and the 4wg-> expand replay, I feel there were several moments where a more experienced player would have just won.
So why don't you explain when and why?
On November 30 2010 11:56 MalVortex wrote:The lack of detection also worries me a little.
Read my earlier post, I said something about this issue.
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I find stargate tech off 1 base extremely weak. But I do love void roys so what I've been doing lately is to go something standard and once both sides are on 2 bases, I build 2-3 stargates and mass void rays.
Important things are:
1. deny obs scouting as long as possible (if you sniped an obs there's a good chance he won't make one for a while if he's massing colossi, which is likely on 2 bases).
2. upgrades you want +2 weapon and speed upgrade before the big encounter.
8 void rays is a good time to either attack or take a 3rd. Stalker immortal supports void rays better than zealot sentry imo. They're bigger, taking less splash dmg and fast enough to keep up with void rays.
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I've tried this is my last 5 pvp games, and I've won all 5
Needless to say it's my core build right now in pvp. The timing attacks work really well with 1 void (to pressure / take down there natural, and then again with 3-4 voids for a strong push to set up my third. I do find after getting my third that switching to robo tech really punishes an opponent who is even a little to stalker heavy.
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stargate first builds cant work , any good opponent will win with 4 gates , or blink stalkers which is super popular in korea. Voidrays are good but not used like this , if you want a good build use 2 gates robo - zealots immortals and then add a stargate for voidrays immortals zealots.
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On November 30 2010 13:17 KiWiKaKi wrote:
stargate first builds cant work , any good opponent will win with 4 gates , or blink stalkers which is super popular in korea. Voidrays are good but not used like this , if you want a good build use 2 gates robo - zealots immortals and then add a stargate for voidrays immortals zealots.
On November 30 2010 01:30 sleepingdog wrote:
Kiwikaki does this together with immortals (2 gate robo stargate) which seems much more stable to me - the immortals somewhat "counter" blink-stalkers which should crush your build, if done by a competent player.
I win
I like this build, although if you screw up early forcefields and a stalker blinks up your ramp, you are officially doomed.
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I am worried about the 4gate, but I tried this last night in PvP just because I was so so sick of the normal colossi fest and I did win against a player who went 2 gate + robo into fast colossi. He held off the initial push with 3 void rays, but I did get my expansion up, and once I was on 4 gate + 2 stargate I eventually just plain over powered his colossus army. It did feel vulnerable to dark templar, but I didn't scout any twilight council, or I would've thrown down a forge immediately.
I think this build needs refinement to be totally solid, but it feels like there is finally some wiggle room in PvP, and frankly I'm willing to suffer a few build order losses while I hash it out just to get away from the monotony.
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I have tried lots of voidray openings in the past and have always ended up back at 2gate robo into expo into collosus race. I just can't convince myself to use a build that I never lose to. With the stalkers + gs that I get out with 2gate robo I never have problems holding an expo against this, add blink and voids become less useful, obviously you wouldn't invest into collosus if you see your opponent sticking with voids but adding on more warpgates and blink makes it so easy to deal with. plus a twilight council threatens dts so you are forcing your opponent into either a robo or cannons. I think its a good thing that people are fighting so hard to get pvp out of this collosus monotony but I just don't think voids are the right way to do it. at least off 1 base they aren't.
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United States8476 Posts
Robo into stargate is just a superior build imo. This build is good vs everything that straight stargate is good vs plus it can hold off blink stalkers and 4 gate. The only time where stargate is much better than robo/stargate is when your opponent goes robo/stargate as well. It might be better vs expansion builds, but I don't have too much experience with those.
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I do find that this build does work best against Robo Builds (it seems to utterly stomp them), not too sure about fast expo builds, haven't had that happen much in PvP (as whoever starts theirs first usually loses it and that usually is a loss). Against 4-Gate and Blinkers this does have some issues early on, but gets really powerful later. If nothing else I could see this being quite viable if you scout a robo opening because your opponent really doesn't have enough forces to kill you early and doesn't have enough AA to take out the Voids off of only 2-3 gates, especially since they won't have a fast blink and they've sunk much gas into the robo & immortal(s) & obs.
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Im wondering how this would deal with phenoxes because they beat viod rays which are basically the dps of this comp. Soz if some1 alse has said this.
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phenoxes are awesomes but they won't ownz0r the zealots.
I'd have many lols if someone made VR zealot against VR zealot. it'd be the opposite of micro.
Still willing to demonstrate blink stalkers to the OP, but really is anyone going to disagree with the mighty kiwikaki?
Edit: Though with my testing against myself (yeah that's right i can micro blink stalkers and zealot+VR at the same time booya) it seems that if the VRs had +1 range this strategy could actually work...
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I should be able to go online for a bit after the Daily tonight GoldenH, lets do a few matches and see how it works. I'm still planning on exploring this build more, at the very least I'll be using this if I scout someone who looks like they're teching Robo on one base, as I haven't had a remotely close game against that.
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Ah that's too late for me, I am going to have a long day and I have a roleplaying game tonight. But you should know there is no daily today (assuming you're talking about day9). check out his twitter. http://twitter.com/day9tv
No daily tonight since I am TAKING A DAY OFF! Day[9] not working 15 hours a day every day? Unheard of! Netflix here I come about 8 hours ago via web
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No Daily? That makes me a sad panda, but Day really does deserve to take a day or two off. Thursday I'm basically planning on playing SC all day (outside of eating), and I'll probably go on at a couple points during Wednesday, hopefully I can catch you online somewhere in there.
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We'll see, I haven't been playing as much as I used to, I need a new computer I've been trying terran and all the marines make it lag something fierce.
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On November 30 2010 13:17 KiWiKaKi wrote:
stargate first builds cant work , any good opponent will win with 4 gates , or blink stalkers which is super popular in korea. Voidrays are good but not used like this , if you want a good build use 2 gates robo - zealots immortals and then add a stargate for voidrays immortals zealots.
Thanks for the post. I've seen you do this recently and sort of forgot about it, but will now go back and watch my replays I have of you. Do you think this build you mentioned is a soft counter to blink stalkers, or do you think it's just an alternative build?
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On November 30 2010 04:37 Vauld wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 04:21 Kiarip wrote:
Can you post replays of you beating these 2200 protoss players?
Honestly, this build looks like it won't work. Voidray is gas expensive, and so are forcefields. Stalkers beat voidrays per cost in fights, and colossus can break forcefields and rape zealots. I see Stalker/sentry/zealot/colossus beating this with relative ease. The vs Blink Stalker rep is against a 2200 Diamond The vs Early Stalker into 4 gate Stalker rep is against a 1700 Diamond The vs 4 Gate into Expo rep is against a 1800 Diamond Collosus can't ever get out against this build, if they rush straight to them they'll straight up die as their Stalker count is so low. Once I start my first push they have to pump constant Stalkers to have a chance at surviving, so the Collosus will never get out, especially in numbers. 2 or 3 gate robo is a build order loss against this. In regards to the gas cost, I get one sentry really early and another somewhere around when my second void is building, the voids even with one chrono per void constant production gives you excess gas with three miners per geyser, so I can add more later, although once I expo which I do while pushing I have gas to play with, even with two stargates constant production with chronos.
it was a 2200 diamond zerg player.
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problem i have with your build is, when you lack mobile detection, and they have dts, your pinned down to your cannons, and can basically never attack
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put up a replay against DT's and i'll be convinced, but right now it seems far to vulnerable to any kind of dt harass. it takes a long time to build a forge and then a cannon, very costly and i feel like it the dts even if they didn't kill any probes than they would already put u so far back from having to stay in your base and defend against the dt's
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voids can be pretty sick against robo builds if you can protect them enough. this probably becomes more viable on more than 1 base to support more void production and have enough gateway units so the colossus doesn't melt everything and leave your voids bare. i had a game on shakuras where my opponent forge FE and i don't 4 gate and love expanding so i did too. ended up going a unit comp similar to this but less sentry more stalker and just melted his stalkers. got 3 gateways before SG though and had him contained and i ended up getting a 3rd so it could be just economy more than the voids, but they can be devastating if you can protect them.
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Oh god, not another, "look at what I discovered" thread
A) zealot/sentry/voidray has been around forever way before this was posted, so I don't understand why its here
B) any voidray push is made 1000000 times stronger by adding an army behind it the people that are suprised are the people who are used to sending in a voidray to kill a base as soon as possible.
C) I have played protoss for a while and viable PvP builds are usually 4 gate, blink stalkers, colossus death ball. Voidrays would die to the 4gate and blink stalkers, so it would only be really good against colossus. Which makes me feel like you have just died from that colossus death ball 1 too many times and made a build to "Counter" it.
I didn't watch the replays, but I will not say your bad at the game ect. I will offer to you another strategy it is, 3 gateways fast expand, no build order optimise it as best you can, it is just enough to hold off early aggression, but lets you get a good eco lead. worst case scenario your forced to one base in which case you already have 3 warp gates, perfect to add on a twilight counsol and get blink, you can go with your voidrays, or you can go with a robo if you see fit.
hope I helped
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Been practicing this build and it been working somewhat but I think im doing something wrong.
I played this build twice, both times the opponent when like 4 gate, the other went 3 gate robo. In the end they were both base trades, I had 4 voids destroying his base, while his gateway army had overrun my base. I had (obviously) only a smaller gateway army to defend and could not hold it off.
My other concern is by the time i build 4 voids, the opponent has time to get substantial tech or just a big gateway army of lots of stalkers that could directly take out my 4 voids if im not careful?
Any tips? Is it gateway composition thats most important (i.e. more sentries)?
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On December 01 2010 08:33 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 04:37 Vauld wrote:On November 30 2010 04:21 Kiarip wrote:
Can you post replays of you beating these 2200 protoss players?
Honestly, this build looks like it won't work. Voidray is gas expensive, and so are forcefields. Stalkers beat voidrays per cost in fights, and colossus can break forcefields and rape zealots. I see Stalker/sentry/zealot/colossus beating this with relative ease. The vs Blink Stalker rep is against a 2200 Diamond The vs Early Stalker into 4 gate Stalker rep is against a 1700 Diamond The vs 4 Gate into Expo rep is against a 1800 Diamond Collosus can't ever get out against this build, if they rush straight to them they'll straight up die as their Stalker count is so low. Once I start my first push they have to pump constant Stalkers to have a chance at surviving, so the Collosus will never get out, especially in numbers. 2 or 3 gate robo is a build order loss against this. In regards to the gas cost, I get one sentry really early and another somewhere around when my second void is building, the voids even with one chrono per void constant production gives you excess gas with three miners per geyser, so I can add more later, although once I expo which I do while pushing I have gas to play with, even with two stargates constant production with chronos. it was a 2200 diamond zerg player.
haha I was about to say this, he's my friend from VN and 2200 Zerg, sKo is the clan.
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I am very happy that the biggest weakness of this build (too many colossi) has been severely reduced in potency if everything on the PTR goes live. I am highly looking forward to doing more of this composition in PvP. Getting charge also really helps this build perform to its highest caliber.
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On December 06 2010 10:02 bankai wrote:
Been practicing this build and it been working somewhat but I think im doing something wrong.
I played this build twice, both times the opponent when like 4 gate, the other went 3 gate robo. In the end they were both base trades, I had 4 voids destroying his base, while his gateway army had overrun my base. I had (obviously) only a smaller gateway army to defend and could not hold it off.
My other concern is by the time i build 4 voids, the opponent has time to get substantial tech or just a big gateway army of lots of stalkers that could directly take out my 4 voids if im not careful?
Any tips? Is it gateway composition thats most important (i.e. more sentries)?
Some help on this please would be great?? Thanks all. Need to learn off the experience of others better than me 
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Well since so many peopple go 1 base collossus in pvp, why not just open robo get a couple immortals, and rather than dropping 200/200 on a bay and then the upgrade and more expensive units... drop 150/150 on the gate and you've got void rays to replace the collossus. now you've got a few immortals on the field, some gateway units and a couple void rays. Seems safe against DTs too and as long as you could pressure vs robo builds at the right time they wouldnt get enough to mess you up
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On December 06 2010 10:18 hitman133 wrote:One guy try this to me and I counter with mass stalkers and Colo. His bad mistake was build up TC and forge way too early. http://www.mediafire.com/?b03dbfn8h58rzc8
I think the way he engaged was the big mistake. He sent like 8 units forward and tried to send another group from behind to close you in but all 3 parts of his bigger army moved in separately and died 1 by 1. He had you way outmacro'd but engaging like you is like walking into a seige line. He also had a good 5 minute window to attack where he could have just walked in and killed you in the midgame.
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I am refining a similar build for 1 month now.I am at 2100 80 apm diamond newbie so im not nearly good but i feel in this meta game this is THE build for pvp.I have beaten players with 400 and 500 more points then me in craftcup go4sc2 etc.
I tryed to go 1 gate stargate , 2 gate stargate, and 3 gate stargate.
I also like to have 2 3 stalkers in the mix,i get them first to handle the eventual early pressure.
3 gate is the safest if he does some 2 gate pressure you're dead if you do 1 gate stargate.
Blink stalkers also owns you from my experience unless you go 3 gate and even then is down to micro until you get 2 void rays...well you have to micro well after that to.
The key for this build is to protect the void rays and let the zealots do the damage witch are cost efective an easy to reinforece.
This build owns hands down any robo build at my level 95 out of 100 times.If he goes colosus stalkers ignore the colossus unless you can snipe it with the voids.zealots will own the stalkers in a head on battle even reinforced by a colosus.The key is he shouldn't have more then 1 colosus by the time you have 2 void rays and go for the push.I find most of the time they have to retreat and you contain them...reinforce and expand.The key is to provoke the head on battle and don't get in to a kiting war as the lack of mobility is your weakness.
It owns 4 gate hands down you just have to turtle for a minute witch is not hard with a sentry or 2.If you see korean 4 gate you don't go for this build any way...
DT rush will be a BO loss if you don't scout it.It is also common for them to make DTs after you contain them so a forge after the contain and a cannon near they're base are good.
Conclusion: Take what i said with a grain of salt.If you play above my level this may not work as well.Im sure this works grate against the robo builds even at higher level though as like i said i have beaten much better players with this when they went robo and they will against a lesser player because it's the "safest".I will watch the replays of the OP when i get home and if any one cares ill try to put some replays up tonight.
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I encountered this build today on ladder, stomped it with ease using colossi ball, im pretty sure my macro was better (I didn't watch the replay) but I found it to be a very poor build and im confident i would have rolled him even if we were at equal food.
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i watched all the replays and i have to say, i remain unconvinced. most of your opponents made terrible, terrible mistakes; for example, the one who rushed 2 gate stalkers and then transitioned into DTs could have totally crushed you with his initial stalkers, but he elected not to.
the one who said he had no idea why he lost because he scouted your VRs and got blink stalkers lost simply because he macroed terribly. when you killed him he had 1200 minerals in the bank. all that money could have been more units, could have been an expansion, could have been cannons.
the game on metalopolis too, your opponent had the advantage initially, but he let you outmacro him and kept suiciding his stalkers up your ramp.
i just can't see this winning against a well-executed 4gate, or against a DT rush, which is better than you'd expect, because if he straight up rushes DTs they'll arrive before you move out, which puts you in a huge disadvantage in a base trade, not to mention that with no forge and no robo, you'll have no means of getting any detection before he outright kills you.
it's an interesting build but i don't think it's really good. those games in the replays weren't won by build order. they were won by a better player beating a worse one.
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look, even kiwikaki says it's not stable.
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meh stalkerless play still seems crap regardless of the voidray buff or not.
If anything I think 1.1.2 will be blink stalkers + stargate in the next patch.
Ie. you open blink stalkers against ANYTHING but a cheese build.
If they do anything strange you just go kill him (fe, dt tech or whatever all basically instantly lose to blink stalker done well).
If they did the same you keep massing stalker while either mixing in immortals or DT.
If they did a 2 or 3 gate robo build you get a stargate and mix in phoenix if the stay on immortals and voidrays if they go colossi. Air units + blink are complete ownage for harass AND you can actually get good counters to robo units from the stargate post patch.
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The build is very strong especially at the beginning. Like Vauld said if u attack with 3 voids and the 4th on the way, that's a good timing. Still have problems with 4-gate and really early pressure, like two chronoboosted stalkers, but I think I'll learn to handle that.
I tested this build vs. zerg as well, quite successful especially if they don't scout your stargate and u are in close positions. Only viable before tons of hydras are out.
cheers
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edit sorry wrong thread
had 2 open
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On November 29 2010 10:54 tocador wrote:
With no detection how can you kill DT's rush?
How does this work agaisnt 4 gate with WARP PRISM to avoid the inevitable FF on ramp?
What if you go agaisnt collo stalker, how will this work?
I can see many flaws, but alltogether sounds like a cool strat i guess.
All builds have their pros and cons, getting 4gate means you have know detection, rushing colossus means you have barely units at the start. there is no perfect build. You have to try what fits the situation better.
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More than anything this build is great fun, since it breaks up the usual monotony of PvP.
In the game that got me to Gold League, I opened 3 Gate with a couple Stalkers but mostly went Zealot/Sentry. Built a Stargrate immediately and dropped an expansion. My opponent tried an Immortal drop that failed him bad, and I retaliated with a Void.
Voids are key to this build because they make your opponent stop whatever he's doing and go Blink Stalkers. This is just hilarious because the Void Rays are only a small part of your army, which will mostly be Chargelots and Sentries.
For added lol's, I dropped a Fleet Beacon as soon as possible and got a Mothership on two bases. Even though I lacked Observers the entire game, and I couldn't snipe his, the presence of the Mothership is one of pure intimidation. Having such an unorthodox force of Mothership, Void Ray, Sentry, Zealot attacking my opponent still so early in the game just disorganized my opponent. It's great fun.
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Beatable and in fact not too hard with 4WG blinkstalkers on maps like shakuras plateau with open ramps. You poke the ramp avoiding forcefields and zealots until you get some good zealot and/or sentry kills and voids stand no chance when you're inside their base. Move stop micro the remaining zealots while shooting voids.
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EPT
