[G] PvZ Overview - Page 2

On November 11 2010 01:00 kcdc wrote:


In either case, you want to keep pumping HT/archons. I don't think Plexa intends that you completely cut the other units you'd been using--you still need stalkers and collosi/storm--but in late game, you need to start making zealots to tank ultras, and you'll probably want void rays as well or you'll die to brood lords. You need a lot of storms on the field to support void rays tho because voids die instantly to hydras.

On November 11 2010 00:55 kcdc wrote:
Also, after the roach range buff, I don't think the 15 nexus is worth it except on super-long rush distances. 1-base roach pressure into expansion means you have to cut probes to crank out 3-5 cannons, and even expansion into 2-base early roach pressure forces you to cut probes to get 2-3 cannons and a lot of stalkers ASAP. You can keep up with Z's economy if you constantly build probes, but I don't think you can afford to do that unless you have a full scout on Z which is usually impossible. I've had a lot more success keeping up w/ Z's economy constantly chronoing probes on 1 base and sentry expanding. The expansion is later, but it's safe, allows you to apply a little pressure, and the probe count is good once your expansion finishes.

On November 11 2010 00:55 Shadrak wrote:


While I understand the idea behind this, in practice how do you defend multiple expos against muta harrass without Phoenix? Do you split your stalkers into multiple groups, thus weakening your main force? I know blink will help stalkers get to your mineral line quickly but a deathball of mutas will already have done serious damage before that happens.

There's really been nothing I have tried that worked once Z got 10+mutas.

On November 11 2010 00:56 Disda wrote:
Can you elaborate more on knowing when to stop the early pressure against zerg? I have a tendency to over commit to my early pressure and consequently either lose or win very early on. How do I know when I've curtailed his "power-droning" enough?

Also, I'm alittle surprised by the lack of discussion in phoenix's, or air dominance in the early/midgame sections. But I don't know nearly enough to contribute there, only that (at my level) it seems limiting myself to only SSC or IST would feel overly restrictive.

Very nice write up.

::Edit:: I have similar experiences as Shadrak, and tend to open up with Phoenix play to head it off at the pass.

On November 11 2010 00:57 Chemist391 wrote:
What do you think about DT tech late-game? They have the dps to deal with ultras (bad choice against broods, obviously). I imagine this would come down to a micro-battle against his overseers.

I've been experimenting with reasonable success with a Sangho style 15 nexus opening into 2 stargates. A common response to the protoss FE is a roach bust, and if you have 2 stargates up, you can chrono out 2 voidrays. This really tends to crush the roach push. The phoenix scouting informs you on the timing of collosi or HT tech. (I always use colossi...the tech path is faster and cheaper, and I'm playing to win in the air, anyway).

On November 11 2010 01:05 sleepingdog wrote:
Ok, here are some comments, I hope you forgive me for being a bit critical, but I think it's more profitable for everyone if I only comment on stuff that I think needs further attention (I could praise 90% of your post though: excellent)



I can't stress enough how CRITICAL it is to get the timings right. NEXGenius lost a game vs Leenock on Metalopolis (into ragequit lol) because he started retreating his 2 initial stalkers just a few seconds too late. I think the user "Friend23" or sth like that posted the timings some days ago, if you scout the gas you have about 3:15 ingame until you are up against speedlings.
To extend my thoughts from there: I think you should emphazise more that the scouting of the gas early on is THE most aspect in the whole PvZ early game matchup. Of course you will scout for early expo..duh..that's standard. But many fail to realize how important it is to scout how early zerg goes for gas.
Because if he does NOT go for early gas this means he intends to play economicly greedy and you HAVE to do "something" or get outmacroed like roflwhat.
Opposed to this, if you see early gas you can play it more safe (zealot/sentry-expand) because zerg sacrifices mineral-mining in order to get "something" that isn't a drone. Be it speedlings, be it roach, it won't matter much because it means that you can now play it more safely. A 3 gate sentry-expand should do fine if zerg goes for fast(er) speedlings and also does very fine vs any sort of standard 2 hatch roach play (as seen from Nony vs Idra, where Nony stomped over Idra's roach-push-attempt close positions on lost temple).

I'm sorry, I really value your opinion as one of the highest of all ppl here, but this is just SO wrong. Phoenixes kill Mutas INCREDIBLY cost-effectively, although - as with every zerg-unit - the effectiveness decreases with upgrades on both sides.
I really hope you take this critique not personally but try to test it in the unit-tester. The protoss-player has the micro-advantage, so nothing is lost by just a-moving the units into another, if anything, protoss profits more if both players know how to micro. Just a simple example: with 20 phoenixes (3000/2000)vs 25 mutas (3000/2000) both unupgraded the ridiculous number of 11 phoenixes survives. Take upgrades into account and mutas do better because the average "profit" from upgrades is higher. Still doesn't change the fact that zerg can NOT, like NEVER rely on pure mutas vs pure phoenixes. You can keep up production-wise due to chrono-boosting both stargates, you only have to be careful to not lose phoenixes early when you are outmatched in numbers. Also zerg cannot really expand safely because mutas are slower than phoenixes, you can always lift off some drones/queens, zerg can NOT defend three bases without any ground-support like more queens than needed or spores, which further decreases the effectiveness of the overall zerg-gameplay.
Maybe I'm wrong, but the maths disagrees and since phoenixes are so easy to micro I've never seen a game where a protoss would lose air-control with phoenixes vs mutas.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that the perfect replay for what I mean would be Sen vs Socke on Desert Oasis. Socke goes for a 5 gate timing attack, does NOT win outright (but deals serious damage) and gets 2 stargates immediately after he sees the first mutas. This shut down Sen COMPLETELY, Sen went hydras and got stomped into the ground by colossi/HT (one of Socke's strongest games at MLG).

On November 11 2010 01:08 Tobberoth wrote:

Well, I'm just speaking from my thoughts here, I'm not good enough to have any real insight into high level PvZ late game, but wouldn't most Zerg players be quite happy to fly in with a group of mutas, pick of a void or two, then fly away as soon as storm hits? It will keep the storms away from the rest of the army while keeping the void count low (and voids are pretty useless in low numbers). It seems to me that in a situation where a protoss has HTs and is going voids, any Zerg would start massing mutas and use them to halt void production while sniping HTs.

On November 11 2010 01:21 clickrush wrote:
I can agree with everything in your guide. Especialy on the upgrade part!

However, you do not say much about the phoenix harass and transitions. Here is where you shouldnt neglect chargelots. They do more dps than roaches and have about the same durability plus they cost less and free up gas. If you fight with chargelots+phoenix against mutaling and are ahead with upgrades then you can add gateways and all-in the shit out of the zerg. If you fight against roach hydra then your countered in a ball vs ball army but not tactically because you can force him to defend his queens/ovis/drones while you send packs of chargelots+1/+2 into his expansions or vice versa. If he all-ins then throw down a bunch of cannons and start pumping out voidrays/sentrys/stalkers and try to flank him with your zealots. however it IS hard to defend against hydra roach with phoenixes and chargelots but its possible.

however iam blabbering alot here about chargelots being effective and whatnot but to me they feel damn strong. If you have explenations of you neglecting them then it would be very helpful if you can bring them.

On November 11 2010 00:55 kcdc wrote:
Also, after the roach range buff, I don't think the 15 nexus is worth it except on super-long rush distances. 1-base roach pressure into expansion means you have to cut probes to crank out 3-5 cannons, and even expansion into 2-base early roach pressure forces you to cut probes to get 2-3 cannons and a lot of stalkers ASAP. You can keep up with Z's economy if you constantly build probes, but I don't think you can afford to do that unless you have a full scout on Z which is usually impossible. I've had a lot more success keeping up w/ Z's economy constantly chronoing probes on 1 base and sentry expanding. The expansion is later, but it's safe, allows you to apply a little pressure, and the probe count is good once your expansion finishes.

On November 11 2010 01:22 Plexa wrote:

15 Nexus is really only viable on Shakuras, I don't even think its viable on Jungle basin tbh! One base sentry expand works as long as the Zerg doesn't think you are sentry expanding haha. Sentry expand means you can't do any pressure what so ever, so a maphacking Zerg will just sit and mass drones until ~50, which you can't keep up with. That's why I think it's important to be a varied player, well, at least in tournament/series situations (ladder doesn't matter).
Few cannons in the minlines helps, but you can only defend 2 bases max with Stalkers alone. Thats why, imo, you're breakout attack needs to thin muta numbers or win the game outright. If you can't hurt that muta flock you're fucked

For early pressure, I haven't got an exact ratio worked out - I just feel it.. which isn't much help. When his speedling fleet is big enough to surround your Stalkers then it's time to get out of there! i.e. for 2 stalkers 6 lings is usually enough to isolate one of them and kill it off. But against 8 stalkers, 6 lings can barely surround 1/3 of your stalker mob.

I'm not big on Phoenix play in PvZ. I appreciate that it works for a lot of people, but I can't help but feel that there are massive massive timing windows which leave you vulnerable. If it works for you, great. But I wouldn't advise people learning protoss to try pick up those kinds of builds because you need to be able to read the zerg perfectly to stop him from hitting those timing windows.
DTs are great to mix in. Unfortunately you're nearly always strapped for gas... I often mix them in when going for IST styles since it's close enough to justify getting them (despite the fact that the dark shrine takes longer to build than a nexus....). Mixing in 4-5 can be really really useful in thinning number or harassing.

Actually, here's a neat tip. If you spam a ton of DTs and if you have +2 attack, sending 4 DT per hatchery should be enough to kill the hatch before an overseer finishes really nice for comeback games

Good points, I'll add that to the OP.

Okay it's important to realise there are two scenarios here. Firstly, if you have a stargate and are making phoenix already then yea, you can keep up with his mutalisk production. At the very worst, it's an even game between you two. e.g. replay the protoss beats the zerg with 3 stargate phoenix in a 44 minute game. However, if you scout mutas (i.e. after spire is around 50% complete) and then add phoenix, you will never be able to match his mutalisk count. He will always have superior numbers and you won't win. Phoenix are an excellent preventative measure, but aren't a reactionary measure - if you understand what I mean.

Basically, you'll never get to the point where you have equal cost phoenix vs muta because he'll be ahead of you if you start phoenix production after scouting spire.

Why not Jungle Basin? The main ramp and nat side entrance are sufficiently far apart by ground that the only thing that can threaten attacking both are speedlings, and you can shut down the main ramp with a sentry or two - and if his roaches show up there, your nat is effectively threatened by lings alone, which, while still dangerous, you can defend by blocking half the nat entrance with a gateway, so you can easily ff against baneling.

On November 11 2010 01:28 flyguy wrote:
Great post! Can you do the same for PvT and PvP now

On November 11 2010 01:29 Ada wrote:
Adding some pictures make a guide more presentable, but all of them show the same action going on. If you add pictures, connect them with the content where you place them.

Something like an example for good FF placement, choke usage or army formation.

Nevertheless, thanks for the work.

On November 11 2010 01:30 Hakker wrote:
I've been experimenting with carriers late game (1900+ diamond). I've found that very late game if you can support 3/4 stargates of carrier production, meaning being on atleast 4 bases then zerg really won't have any counter to it.

Zerg ground gets absolutely raped by carriers, as do mutalisks. The key is just not dieing during the first production cycle, when you're expecting your first 4.

Usually i start upgrading +1 air weapons when i think that I might be going in to carrier mode, because they scale ridiculous with air weapons.

What do you think?

On November 11 2010 01:31 Gecko wrote:
I have a question, you said that a 3gate expo comes to late to play an economic game. Should i pressure with gateway units before i expand when i decide to 3gate then?

On November 11 2010 01:28 Plexa wrote:

I dont understand why Zergs just don't attack the Rocks in your natural with Roaches. It's the same with Blistering - it forces cannons in two places which is a massive mineral sink.

PvP is easy. The winner of a PvP is the person who can build the most Colossus without dying to mass units

PvP is easy. The winner of a PvP is the person who can build the most Colossus without dying to mass units