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On November 11 2010 01:30 Hakker wrote:
I've been experimenting with carriers late game (1900+ diamond). I've found that very late game if you can support 3/4 stargates of carrier production, meaning being on atleast 4 bases then zerg really won't have any counter to it.
Zerg ground gets absolutely raped by carriers, as do mutalisks. The key is just not dieing during the first production cycle, when you're expecting your first 4.
Usually i start upgrading +1 air weapons when i think that I might be going in to carrier mode, because they scale ridiculous with air weapons.
What do you think?
Well, I haven't used carriers, but don't hydras murder interceptors since they don't auto repair?? And then leftover corruptors would kill your carriers. Or even neutral parasite, since carriers are very good at killing carriers, but I suppose to do that effectively you'd need a lot of infestors.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 11 2010 01:33 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 01:28 Plexa wrote:Why not Jungle Basin? The main ramp and nat side entrance are sufficiently far apart by ground that the only thing that can threaten attacking both are speedlings, and you can shut down the main ramp with a sentry or two - and if his roaches show up there, your nat is effectively threatened by lings alone, which, while still dangerous, you can defend by blocking half the nat entrance with a gateway, so you can easily ff against baneling. I dont understand why Zergs just don't attack the Rocks in your natural with Roaches. It's the same with Blistering - it forces cannons in two places which is a massive mineral sink. On November 11 2010 01:28 flyguy wrote:Great post! Can you do the same for PvT and PvP now  PvP is easy. The winner of a PvP is the person who can build the most Colossus without dying to mass units It's not the same as Blistering though. On Blistering, the distance defending both your back rocks and your nat is greater than the distance attacking them, so the zerg can easily swap between the two without you being able to defend effectively. Furthermore, you have to defend your nat which is not particularly narrow and is not a ramp that you can deny vision on. Whereas on Jungle Basin, the distance attacking is far, far greater than the distance defending, so once the roaches commit to one direction, they have no threat of appearing at the other for a long time - a time during which you can switch over and defend easily, and any pressure at the ramp is easily shut down by a cannon and a sentry, and later you will have stalker. Of course you will have to invest in more cannons/sentry than on a map with one entrance, but not really that much. The only real threat imo if you don't screw up (which I do sometimes ~_~) is at your nat rocks, so it's not as bad as Blistering. Sure it's safer than a lot of the maps around at the moment, but the layout of the natural is just begging for blink stalker abuse - why would you give that up ! Also, if the Zerg actually commits to a Roach push he can pressure both the front and the back and although it's rare, I hate gambling on that possibility 
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Fantastic write up thanks plexa :D
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Thanks for the help plexa, what you said about not letting the zerg play the way he wants to is something i really need to start doing. I usually 3gate sentry expand but i will try stalker pressure next time i scout Z not making units to deal with it
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 11 2010 01:38 Gecko wrote:Thanks for the help plexa, what you said about not letting the zerg play the way he wants to is something i really need to start doing. I usually 3gate sentry expand but i will try stalker pressure next time i scout Z not making units to deal with it
Chances are you will lose the first few games since the timings and stuff will be all weird - but don't lose heart! Once you get those timings down it makes you that much more of a dangerous player. Protoss is soooo reliant on the metagame it's not funny being able to play around with that is really important imo.
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On November 11 2010 01:37 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 01:33 EtherealDeath wrote:On November 11 2010 01:28 Plexa wrote:Why not Jungle Basin? The main ramp and nat side entrance are sufficiently far apart by ground that the only thing that can threaten attacking both are speedlings, and you can shut down the main ramp with a sentry or two - and if his roaches show up there, your nat is effectively threatened by lings alone, which, while still dangerous, you can defend by blocking half the nat entrance with a gateway, so you can easily ff against baneling. I dont understand why Zergs just don't attack the Rocks in your natural with Roaches. It's the same with Blistering - it forces cannons in two places which is a massive mineral sink. On November 11 2010 01:28 flyguy wrote:Great post! Can you do the same for PvT and PvP now PvP is easy. The winner of a PvP is the person who can build the most Colossus without dying to mass units It's not the same as Blistering though. On Blistering, the distance defending both your back rocks and your nat is greater than the distance attacking them, so the zerg can easily swap between the two without you being able to defend effectively. Furthermore, you have to defend your nat which is not particularly narrow and is not a ramp that you can deny vision on. Whereas on Jungle Basin, the distance attacking is far, far greater than the distance defending, so once the roaches commit to one direction, they have no threat of appearing at the other for a long time - a time during which you can switch over and defend easily, and any pressure at the ramp is easily shut down by a cannon and a sentry, and later you will have stalker. Of course you will have to invest in more cannons/sentry than on a map with one entrance, but not really that much. The only real threat imo if you don't screw up (which I do sometimes ~_~) is at your nat rocks, so it's not as bad as Blistering. Sure it's safer than a lot of the maps around at the moment, but the layout of the natural is just begging for blink stalker abuse - why would you give that up ! Also, if the Zerg actually commits to a Roach push he can pressure both the front and the back and although it's rare, I hate gambling on that possibility
Wait what, missed this somehow (had Jungle Basin thumbed down for a long time practicing other maps). Which direction in the nat is the abuse begger? Next to rocks closest to gas?
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Great job Plexa. Now you have to do other articles on different match up
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On November 11 2010 00:43 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 00:30 Thaddaeus wrote:TY for the nice writing! I only play Toss but i dislike Rays however One question came to my mind regarding air upgrades now. What would be the ideal point to start upgrading air dmg/armor when you havent already made some phenix play in early/mid game? Just a bit before you pump Rays? As of at this point i would think i spend all my CBs on the Rays and not on the 2+ cybernetics. I would start +1 the moment you have the gas after you've put down your two stargates. Normally you're starved for gas so you'll probably only get to about +2 weapons at most, but it's not overly important for VRs since their strength is that when charged they own and the fact they are really mobile. If you are a normal Protoss, you will have enough CB for everything haha. By then you'll have at least 3 Nexus and plenty of CB lying about so it's not really an issue
TY !
I do stack CB of course (at least to a certain degree in mid/late game) so i take the normal toss as a compliment 
On a sidenote i would also read that you suggest getting rather the + armor ups (in the described case) to neglect the corruptor a bit more.?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 11 2010 01:40 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 01:37 Plexa wrote:On November 11 2010 01:33 EtherealDeath wrote:On November 11 2010 01:28 Plexa wrote:Why not Jungle Basin? The main ramp and nat side entrance are sufficiently far apart by ground that the only thing that can threaten attacking both are speedlings, and you can shut down the main ramp with a sentry or two - and if his roaches show up there, your nat is effectively threatened by lings alone, which, while still dangerous, you can defend by blocking half the nat entrance with a gateway, so you can easily ff against baneling. I dont understand why Zergs just don't attack the Rocks in your natural with Roaches. It's the same with Blistering - it forces cannons in two places which is a massive mineral sink. On November 11 2010 01:28 flyguy wrote:Great post! Can you do the same for PvT and PvP now PvP is easy. The winner of a PvP is the person who can build the most Colossus without dying to mass units It's not the same as Blistering though. On Blistering, the distance defending both your back rocks and your nat is greater than the distance attacking them, so the zerg can easily swap between the two without you being able to defend effectively. Furthermore, you have to defend your nat which is not particularly narrow and is not a ramp that you can deny vision on. Whereas on Jungle Basin, the distance attacking is far, far greater than the distance defending, so once the roaches commit to one direction, they have no threat of appearing at the other for a long time - a time during which you can switch over and defend easily, and any pressure at the ramp is easily shut down by a cannon and a sentry, and later you will have stalker. Of course you will have to invest in more cannons/sentry than on a map with one entrance, but not really that much. The only real threat imo if you don't screw up (which I do sometimes ~_~) is at your nat rocks, so it's not as bad as Blistering. Sure it's safer than a lot of the maps around at the moment, but the layout of the natural is just begging for blink stalker abuse - why would you give that up ! Also, if the Zerg actually commits to a Roach push he can pressure both the front and the back and although it's rare, I hate gambling on that possibility Wait what, missed this somehow (had Jungle Basin thumbed down for a long time practicing other maps). Which direction in the nat is the abuse begger? Next to rocks closest to gas?
You can blink in from pretty much any direction ;o
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa//PvZ/basin.jpg)
Plus you can blink out of his main from any corner. It's not as abusable as Kulas or Xel Naga, but it's up there imo.
On November 11 2010 01:42 Thaddaeus wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 00:43 Plexa wrote:On November 11 2010 00:30 Thaddaeus wrote:TY for the nice writing! I only play Toss but i dislike Rays however One question came to my mind regarding air upgrades now. What would be the ideal point to start upgrading air dmg/armor when you havent already made some phenix play in early/mid game? Just a bit before you pump Rays? As of at this point i would think i spend all my CBs on the Rays and not on the 2+ cybernetics. I would start +1 the moment you have the gas after you've put down your two stargates. Normally you're starved for gas so you'll probably only get to about +2 weapons at most, but it's not overly important for VRs since their strength is that when charged they own and the fact they are really mobile. If you are a normal Protoss, you will have enough CB for everything haha. By then you'll have at least 3 Nexus and plenty of CB lying about so it's not really an issue TY ! I do stack CB of course (at least to a certain degree in mid/late game) so i take the normal toss as a compliment On a sidenote i would also read that you suggest getting rather the + armor ups (in the described case) to neglect the corruptor a bit more.?
For VRs? Usually not worth it. Corruptors quickly leave the battlefield once VRs come into play (VRs deal full damage to them) and Corruptors only get +1 attack from upgrades anyway (and Zerg rarely get those unless they muta/ling). Typically the only upgrades my VRs have are +weapons and any +shield that I have
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Awesome guide, very well-written and informative. Gives great insight into both sides of the matchup.
There is one point I don't agree with though:
On November 10 2010 23:49 Plexa wrote:
Void Rays, or rather, Speed Rays are incredible late game units for the following reasons
- Zerg has nothing good to kill them with (muta expensive, corruptor lol, hydras die to everything)
pre-patch rays really did lol at corruptors, as they did insane damage vs armored units. However after the patch void rays are now not nearly as strong vs armored units, like the corruptor. In addition, corruptors lost their energy, making them immune to feedback.
From the zerg side, I think corruptors are the answer to late-game speed rays. Late-game zerg already has greater spire, which means they are already making, or about to make broodlords, so they already have the corruptors. All zerg has to do is either make more corruptors, or cut back slightly on the # of corruptors that they morph into broodlords. Corruptors will not be easy to pick off, as stalkers will have to blink into a wall of crackling/ultra to get to them. Also corruptors & void rays have the same range, 6, so you can't really use your void rays to attack from behind your army like you can with range 9 colossus.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 11 2010 01:44 BlasiuS wrote:Awesome guide, very well-written and informative. Gives great insight into both sides of the matchup. There is one point I don't agree with though: Show nested quote +On November 10 2010 23:49 Plexa wrote:
Void Rays, or rather, Speed Rays are incredible late game units for the following reasons
- Zerg has nothing good to kill them with (muta expensive, corruptor lol, hydras die to everything)
pre-patch rays really did lol at corruptors, as they did insane damage vs armored units. However after the patch void rays are now not nearly as strong vs armored units, like the corruptor. In addition, corruptors lost their energy, making them immune to feedback. From the zerg side, I think corruptors are the answer to late-game speed rays. Late-game zerg already has greater spire, which means they are already making, or about to make broodlords, so they already have the corruptors. All zerg has to do is either make more corruptors, or cut back slightly on the # of corruptors that they morph into broodlords. Corruptors will not be easy to pick off, as stalkers will have to blink into a wall of crackling/ultra to get to them. Also corruptors & void rays have the same range, 6, so you can't really use your void rays to attack from behind your army like you can with range 9 colossus.
Okay perhaps lol'ing at corruptors is a bit overkill, but the fact is that Corruptors aren't useful at dealing with my ground army (besides colo) and they're expensive. I think at the very worst it's an even fight between Corruptors/Speed Rays which is exactly the way it should be. Both sides should have options in the lategame which are viable. From what I've seen, though, the real strength to speedrays is their ability to pop up somewhere kill a bunch of drones and a hatch then leave again without being touched by Zerg.
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On November 11 2010 01:44 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2010 01:40 EtherealDeath wrote:On November 11 2010 01:37 Plexa wrote:On November 11 2010 01:33 EtherealDeath wrote:On November 11 2010 01:28 Plexa wrote:Why not Jungle Basin? The main ramp and nat side entrance are sufficiently far apart by ground that the only thing that can threaten attacking both are speedlings, and you can shut down the main ramp with a sentry or two - and if his roaches show up there, your nat is effectively threatened by lings alone, which, while still dangerous, you can defend by blocking half the nat entrance with a gateway, so you can easily ff against baneling. I dont understand why Zergs just don't attack the Rocks in your natural with Roaches. It's the same with Blistering - it forces cannons in two places which is a massive mineral sink. On November 11 2010 01:28 flyguy wrote:Great post! Can you do the same for PvT and PvP now PvP is easy. The winner of a PvP is the person who can build the most Colossus without dying to mass units It's not the same as Blistering though. On Blistering, the distance defending both your back rocks and your nat is greater than the distance attacking them, so the zerg can easily swap between the two without you being able to defend effectively. Furthermore, you have to defend your nat which is not particularly narrow and is not a ramp that you can deny vision on. Whereas on Jungle Basin, the distance attacking is far, far greater than the distance defending, so once the roaches commit to one direction, they have no threat of appearing at the other for a long time - a time during which you can switch over and defend easily, and any pressure at the ramp is easily shut down by a cannon and a sentry, and later you will have stalker. Of course you will have to invest in more cannons/sentry than on a map with one entrance, but not really that much. The only real threat imo if you don't screw up (which I do sometimes ~_~) is at your nat rocks, so it's not as bad as Blistering. Sure it's safer than a lot of the maps around at the moment, but the layout of the natural is just begging for blink stalker abuse - why would you give that up ! Also, if the Zerg actually commits to a Roach push he can pressure both the front and the back and although it's rare, I hate gambling on that possibility Wait what, missed this somehow (had Jungle Basin thumbed down for a long time practicing other maps). Which direction in the nat is the abuse begger? Next to rocks closest to gas? You can blink in from pretty much any direction ;o Plus you can blink out of his main from any corner. It's not as abusable as Kulas or Xel Naga, but it's up there imo.
Mm nice, gotta try this out later tonight.
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lol nice guide. Only problem is, you made it public D:
mmm didn't realise how badly stalkers damage scaled with ups. Gonna have to try and abuse that more now.
How am I gonna get my PvZ wins now?? =[
Saracen should post something like this for Z :D
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I've had success with a pre-spire +1 chargelot timing attack, with a few sentries/stalkers. Charged zealots are really good against all zerg ground.
What do you think about relatively early charge? It just makes zealots so efficient that I always seem to want it PvZ.
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Hm, I usually go for DTs in the late game instead of void rays since the fleet beacon is so expensive, but I will try out void rays instead. There are some things I'd like to say in defense of DTs though. It's not just their hatchery-killing abilities and harassment that make a dark shrine really useful in the late game. It's the ability to completely shut down the first nydus worm or overlord drop, which almost certainly won't come with an overseer. And then either they stop doing these drops or you know they have the ability to use these tactics and can plan accordingly.
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On November 11 2010 01:56 iamke55 wrote:
Hm, I usually go for DTs in the late game instead of void rays since the fleet beacon is so expensive, but I will try out void rays instead. There are some things I'd like to say in defense of DTs though. It's not just their hatchery-killing abilities and harassment that make a dark shrine really useful in the late game. It's the ability to completely shut down the first nydus worm or overlord drop, which almost certainly won't come with an overseer. And then either they stop doing these drops or you know they have the ability to use these tactics and can plan accordingly.
I've found that DTs get absolutely wrecked by pretty much everything zerg has. Even if he doesn't have detection he can just run zerglings past your DTs and harass probes/pylons.
Though i have been experimenting using 4-5 phoenixes to snipe overseers while harassing with DT's. I've only found success with it late game though, where his overseers and army might put significant distance between them. as phoenix's are very slow at killing overseers. I wouldn't expect such mis-micro from any higher level zerg though.
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One of the most informative write-ups I've seen posted in a while. Thanks for taking the time to share this with the community
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Wow, I have did not think zerg was in a good position late game versus protoss. Whenever I see a zerg going from mid too lategame, protoss almost always crush them. Perhaps it was just because protoss with some nice early and midgame make zergs come into the lategame stages at disadvantage, I dont know.
If someone know any replay showing how hard protoss has it lategame, please tell me. All I have seen is zerg getting stomped.
Zerg perspective:
+ Show Spoiler +Also, from a zergs perspective. I watched Sen vs Socke from MLG, on Lost Temple. I know static defense is bad and all, but is it seriously not worth it to have 3 drones go make 3 spines at an expansion that is hard to defend like the 9 oClock from Sen? He constantly lost so much shit at that expansion. And also for zerg, why not have 6 spines, which you can kind of walk to the next expansion you take? They are surely not as static as it may seem. What is your thoughts on static defense? Is zergs static defense really that bad going into lategame vs toss?
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This is an ok guide. Decent writeup but i think it omits a lot of stuff and has some huge strategic flaws in it as well.
First of all I agree mostly on the early game: FE yourself or pressure them. It would be nice if people stop calling a FE a 15 nexus though, it rarely ever is 15 nexus and in lot of cases 17 nexus is the prefferred timing to expand actually. The exact timings differ as you need to scout their position and pool timing but rarely is 15 nexus correct. It's similar to 13 hatch for example, it's just a probe too early.
One thing i disagree about bigtime in the early game is your general use of hallucination for scouting. I used to use it alot but rarely ever do so anymore, the cost of the tech and it's use is simply too high for what you get imo. It's a 110 sec, 100m 100g tech that also depletes lot's of energy from your sentries. Further more it's good for scouting but not nearly as good as a real phoenix and usually a bit worse then a observer as well because the hallucinated phoenix lasts relatively short.
Also hallucination gets quite crap in the lategame as often you won't have sentries with enough energy to use it anymore. Finally the combat use of hallucination is practually zero, there is almost no situation where you would want to use hallucination instead of forcefields.
Most times it is simply better to put down a stargate or robo for scouting instead of getting hallucination. The cost is nearly the same and timing wise it is usually better as well. Initially it might cost a little more but a stargate or robo is nearly always useful vs Z if not only to deter tech switches / be able to respond to them.
On small maps a 'blind' robo does very well as muta/ling is really rare on them. On big maps a 'blind' stargate does really well as muta/ling play is very likely on them and phoenix harass is very good on big maps (even if they do go roach/hydra).
As for the midgame compositions, i think you are grossly simplifying it by saying you can only go 'CSS' or 'IST'. Either of those compositions is pretty terrible against muta/ling play as templar take way too much time to get out against a muta/ling player. You simply need to get phoenix against proper muta play as otherwise you are never able to get a 3rd expansion going safely and 3 or 4 base mutaling play gets far ahead against 2 base 'IST' play. Templar are just quite expensive to get going on 2 bases in conjunction with stalkers, it is more a 3 base tech in that regard.
The proper way to fight muta/ling IS with phoenix or a proper timing push. On small maps a timing push is obviously strong, on bigger maps phoenix play is usually advised.
Take this replay of Socke vs Sen.
http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/39512
Socke tries to beat muta/ling play without phoenix here but even though he uses blink stalkers and gets templar eventually he is FAR behind before he gets to counter the muta. Only because Sen makes some horrible micro mistakes and general sloppy play later on does this game continue for so long as Socke was basically lost since the moment he didnt defend muta/ling play properly.
The good way to counter muta/ling play (especially on maps that favor muta/ling play) is by going phoenix, stalker, zealot, sentries. Even though you won't be able to get a sufficient number of phoenix to kill muta on their own, you don't need too. You simply need phoenix to a) help defend his harass along with your stalkers b) harass and scout him c) help win a 'big' fight that will usually happen at his 3rd or 4th. Getting robo units makes you horribly slow against muta/ling and they are only a waste of gas. Simply invest in attack upgrades for your ground (as that is another way to counter lings) and get a good zealot/stalker/phoenix force. Lings get decimated by quick 2-0 stalker/zealot (as you will always be able to get 2-0 way before they have 0-2 as 2-0 is cheaper AND you can chronoboost whereas he can not) and with the help of phoenix and sentries it easily takes care of muta as well. Chargelots with attack upgrades also do fine against roaches which he can't get in big numbers anyway when using muta. A replay of this exact method of muta counter is this one of Artosis vs Renihour (also covered in a day9 don't know which):
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/2503
Reniehour does go phoenix quite fast but going it a bit later really is no problem either, for example you can start with 1 stargate and then add a 2nd if you scout a spire. Even going double stargate after seeing a spire works, you simply don't need a phoenix fleet that can beat their muta on their own, you only need a sufficient number to help stop harass and harass back.
For the rest the midgame section is quite ok. I disagree with rebuilding sentries so much though, getting a lot early on is good but later on it is rarely good to rebuild alot of them as they are too gas heavy at that point. Early on sentries rock as they are a gas outlet while minerals are the limiting factor early on but later on you usually have better ways to use the gas. For example when using the 'CSS' composition I would advise to simply not replenish your sentries later and in fact go with colossi, stalker, immortal. It is less gas heavy meaning you won't get such a big mineral surplus (it is simply not always possible to expand to spend your minerals) and rebuilding sentries later on tends to suck. You won't have the energy build up that your early sentries have and because lategame it usually gets to 3 or 4 base play they are not as great defensively anymore either as the Z can be dropping, nydusing or simply attacking bases where your sentries aren't. Build sentries early on as they are great to defend (and great offensively with energy buildup) but eventually phaze them out your army as you are better off getting something else later (such as more immortals).
As a final remark, that statement about speedrays being a great endgame composition, i'm not so sure. Voidrays are a great transition when you were already on 2 stargates, for example you went phoenix to counter muta but he transitioned into roach/hydra so you transition into speedray, lot, templar. As a straight up late transition when you don't have prior tech it sucks imo. Starting speedrays when you don't have any tech in it yet is VERY expensive (2 stargates, fleet beacon, flux vanes and +1 air attack) before you even get 1 out and regardless of their harass potential hydra's still stomp them in a fight (also upgraded queens are quite ok against small numbers of them).
Overall, nice setup for a guide but tons of errors (ofcourse in my humble opinion).
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EPT
