EPTI would absolutely kill for a PvT/PvP guide as well =D
[G] PvZ Overview - Page 5
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GriNn
United States243 Posts
I would absolutely kill for a PvT/PvP guide as well =D | ||
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ZapRoffo
United States5544 Posts
I've been playing phoenix as my main build in PvZ, something like 1 gate stargate constant phoenix (VR to ward away roach stuff if that comes up) into forge and expansion. Is that too uneconomical against good players or too vulnerable to mass speedling or hydra busts (I'm not sure if my normal pattern of rushing to colossus tech after expanding handles that done efficiently)? | ||
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NeoSlicerZ
Ireland470 Posts
In retrospect I should probably have gotten more immortals but with the ground I had to cover I preferred stalkers even if they were much less cost efficent. | ||
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leecH
Germany385 Posts
id be very thankful if you could go into the phoenix play a bit more. i blindly open with phenix in pvz so i rarely have to deal with mutalisks. maybe if you could cover that too your thread would almost cover everything regarding PvZ? =) ... pleeeeeaaaaaaaassssse  ) =))) | ||
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oprandom
United States33 Posts
Um this is totally wrong. People have the idea that Zerg can drone up with impunity. The key to TvZ and PvZ is to make them build units instead of drones. Make them build zerglings and spine crawlers - the earlier the better. Make them build roaches as you go air. If you do even a minimal amount of pressure and achieve this, T and P econ actually match Zerg's. The problem is a lot of noobs think you either have to go hard econ or attack and nothing inbetween. I've won so many games by sending a pair of marines or a single zealot super early and seeing how the zerg responds. Their correct response is to build four zerglings. If they build 2, they lose the battle. If they build 6-12 they're going to be way behind in econ and all I need is a bunker or stalkers with probes on standby to hold off a dozen zerglings trying to walk across the map. | ||
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tetramaster
Canada253 Posts
On November 11 2010 08:58 oprandom wrote: "15 Nex allows you to keep your probe production matched with his drone production" Um this is totally wrong. People have the idea that Zerg can drone up with impunity. The key to TvZ and PvZ is to make them build units instead of drones. Make them build zerglings and spine crawlers - the earlier the better. Make them build roaches as you go air. If you do even a minimal amount of pressure and achieve this, T and P econ actually match Zerg's. The problem is a lot of noobs think you either have to go hard econ or attack and nothing inbetween. I've won so many games by sending a pair of marines or a single zealot super early and seeing how the zerg responds. Their correct response is to build four zerglings. If they build 2, they lose the battle. If they build 6-12 they're going to be way behind in econ and all I need is a bunker or stalkers with probes on standby to hold off a dozen zerglings trying to walk across the map. The idea and the concept behind 15 nexus is that, if you aren't putting much early pressure such that one or two spines can handle it, you're not doing much to force the zerg to produce much. By the time you're getting units out, chances are the zerg's econ is booming, and so is yours. Hence, forgoing the "early game". | ||
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ZapRoffo
United States5544 Posts
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Tuneful
United States327 Posts
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
I think the roach buff was part of the problem, but the bigger reason why PvZ feels different nowadays is because Zerg is starting to realize how to play their race effectively (against P and T). Blizzard really needs to stop patching the game so fast and creating new issues without giving the game time to mature. | ||
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kzn
United States1218 Posts
On November 10 2010 23:49 Plexa wrote: While Zergs can 7RR, 5RR, baneling all-in, 6pool etc. these builds are not being considered here. On the whole these builds are shut down fairly easily by Sentries and appropriate cannon use. Could you expand on this (perhaps in a different thread)? My experience has been if I don't have Stalkers out already (or at least 2 warpgates) when roach pressure hits, I instantly lose no matter how many sentries I have, unless the Z makes a mistake. This is not so much an issue with 7RR/5RR and 6pools, because those are scouted and you'd be pretty retarded to 15nex vs that after you scouted it, but I'm thinking more reactive roach all-in's. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 11 2010 02:32 Markwerf wrote: The key difference between Hallucination and Observers is that Hallucination costs 50 more minerals and can be used at any stage of the game while Observers can be sniped - and building a second one already makes it worse than Hallu. I always have an obs with my army, I should probably include that somewhere in the guide... You need that detection to kill creep highways and whatnot and most of the time you want to be pumping colo/immo out of your robo and you'd rather not waste time building a second obs. That's why I believe Hallu is better, and the Koreans tend to agree with me on that One thing i disagree about bigtime in the early game is your general use of hallucination for scouting. I used to use it alot but rarely ever do so anymore, the cost of the tech and it's use is simply too high for what you get imo. It's a 110 sec, 100m 100g tech that also depletes lot's of energy from your sentries. Further more it's good for scouting but not nearly as good as a real phoenix and usually a bit worse then a observer as well because the hallucinated phoenix lasts relatively short.  Also hallucination gets quite crap in the lategame as often you won't have sentries with enough energy to use it anymore. Finally the combat use of hallucination is practually zero, there is almost no situation where you would want to use hallucination instead of forcefields. If you're going stargate play, then sure Hallu is obsolete I agree. But if you're going robotics play then I would still prefer hallu for the reasons cited above. Sentries in general are crap in the lategame, but a few hallucinated immortals/collossus are a lot better than sentries just sitting there getting butchered by Ultralisks! Sentries, as with stalkers, become progressively worse as the game goes on.Most times it is simply better to put down a stargate or robo for scouting instead of getting hallucination. The cost is nearly the same and timing wise it is usually better as well. Initially it might cost a little more but a stargate or robo is nearly always useful vs Z if not only to deter tech switches / be able to respond to them. On small maps a 'blind' robo does very well as muta/ling is really rare on them. On big maps a 'blind' stargate does really well as muta/ling play is very likely on them and phoenix harass is very good on big maps (even if they do go roach/hydra). No arguments here, hell I would say you want a robotics against Muta/ling anyway since Roach transitions are getting more and more common.As for the midgame compositions, i think you are grossly simplifying it by saying you can only go 'CSS' or 'IST'. Either of those compositions is pretty terrible against muta/ling play as templar take way too much time to get out against a muta/ling player. You simply need to get phoenix against proper muta play as otherwise you are never able to get a 3rd expansion going safely and 3 or 4 base mutaling play gets far ahead against 2 base 'IST' play. Templar are just quite expensive to get going on 2 bases in conjunction with stalkers, it is more a 3 base tech in that regard. Phoenix are only good as a preemptive counter to muta/ling, as I've said before. If you're playing catchup then you're going to lose the game. If you have a strong ground army then the correct followup is Blink Stalker/Storm - yes it's not as strong as pure phoenix - but it does work. The proper way to fight muta/ling IS with phoenix or a proper timing push. On small maps a timing push is obviously strong, on bigger maps phoenix play is usually advised. Take this replay of Socke vs Sen. http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/39512 Socke tries to beat muta/ling play without phoenix here but even though he uses blink stalkers and gets templar eventually he is FAR behind before he gets to counter the muta. Only because Sen makes some horrible micro mistakes and general sloppy play later on does this game continue for so long as Socke was basically lost since the moment he didnt defend muta/ling play properly. The socke/sen game actually illustrates why Storm is so good against Muta/ling Socke made some crucial errors in that game though. For instance, he moved out with only 2 templar - that's not enough to kill off muta/ling - and as a result lost half his army. Further, he would use blink to engage the mutalisks, not chase them - and as a result he would only hurt the mutalisks and not kill them (which is exactly what the Zerg wants). Blink should be used to give chase rather than open fire. Muta/Ling is so unforgiving when you play ground based - lose half your army without taking out significant numbers and the game is almost over. Socke was just lucky to get good storms off later which saved the game for him (illustrating just how effective storm is). After that it was a case of whose lategame was better. The good way to counter muta/ling play (especially on maps that favor muta/ling play) is by going phoenix, stalker, zealot, sentries. Even though you won't be able to get a sufficient number of phoenix to kill muta on their own, you don't need too. You simply need phoenix to a) help defend his harass along with your stalkers b) harass and scout him c) help win a 'big' fight that will usually happen at his 3rd or 4th. Getting robo units makes you horribly slow against muta/ling and they are only a waste of gas. Simply invest in attack upgrades for your ground (as that is another way to counter lings) and get a good zealot/stalker/phoenix force. Lings get decimated by quick 2-0 stalker/zealot (as you will always be able to get 2-0 way before they have 0-2 as 2-0 is cheaper AND you can chronoboost whereas he can not) and with the help of phoenix and sentries it easily takes care of muta as well. Chargelots with attack upgrades also do fine against roaches which he can't get in big numbers anyway when using muta. I'm sorry but you don't know what you're talking about. You're correct in saying that +1 attack is important against muta/ling, but thats only half the story. If you are not equal or ahead in upgrades, Mutaling will over run any ground army - you also need to be upgrading armour and arguably shield (ugh why does it cost so much..) because that reduces muta splash and zergling damage significantly. Further, in practice +2 is delayed not by resources, but by the speed at which you get your twilight council. If you have a Stargate you won't be getting that for a while and thus the Zerg will be able to catch up. The composition you describe will counter 12 mutalisks no problem, but once they get 20+ your army will be decimated. You have no effective way of dealing with that many mutalisks since you dont have enough Phoenix to fight them and Stalkers suck against mass muta. Protoss don't have a problem beating 12 mutalisks, pure stalkers can do that, Protoss have a problem beating mass mutalisks - the only counters are 3 gate Phoenix (see the replay I linked earlier) or Storm. A replay of this exact method of muta counter is this one of Artosis vs Renihour (also covered in a day9 don't know which): This doesn't demonstrate your point and indeed supports what I'm saying. Preemptive phoenix is fine against muta, hell it's desirable. Reactionary phoenix just isn't quick enough to deal with mass mutalisks. http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/2503 Reniehour does go phoenix quite fast but going it a bit later really is no problem either, for example you can start with 1 stargate and then add a 2nd if you scout a spire. Even going double stargate after seeing a spire works, you simply don't need a phoenix fleet that can beat their muta on their own, you only need a sufficient number to help stop harass and harass back. For the rest the midgame section is quite ok. I disagree with rebuilding sentries so much though, getting a lot early on is good but later on it is rarely good to rebuild alot of them as they are too gas heavy at that point. Early on sentries rock as they are a gas outlet while minerals are the limiting factor early on but later on you usually have better ways to use the gas. For example when using the 'CSS' composition I would advise to simply not replenish your sentries later and in fact go with colossi, stalker, immortal. It is less gas heavy meaning you won't get such a big mineral surplus (it is simply not always possible to expand to spend your minerals) and rebuilding sentries later on tends to suck. You won't have the energy build up that your early sentries have and because lategame it usually gets to 3 or 4 base play they are not as great defensively anymore either as the Z can be dropping, nydusing or simply attacking bases where your sentries aren't. Build sentries early on as they are great to defend (and great offensively with energy buildup) but eventually phaze them out your army as you are better off getting something else later (such as more immortals). You have no idea what you are talking about. Without forcefield midgame armies are overrun by masses of Roach/Hydra - you have no way of controlling their movements or being able to retreat. No sentries is just asking for a beating, they are a key to playing strong PvZ and is the sole reason why escjung was a PvZ gosu (dno what's happened to him recently though). Once you appreciate this, PvZ becomes a lot more manageable.As a final remark, that statement about speedrays being a great endgame composition, i'm not so sure. Voidrays are a great transition when you were already on 2 stargates, for example you went phoenix to counter muta but he transitioned into roach/hydra so you transition into speedray, lot, templar. As a straight up late transition when you don't have prior tech it sucks imo. Starting speedrays when you don't have any tech in it yet is VERY expensive (2 stargates, fleet beacon, flux vanes and +1 air attack) before you even get 1 out and regardless of their harass potential hydra's still stomp them in a fight (also upgraded queens are quite ok against small numbers of them). Simply saying "it sucks" doesn't really help anyone - why do you think it sucks? You can't play a midgame army against T3 Zerg, you just die. Stalkers get completely decimated by Ultralisks and they are the core of all midgame armies. Thus you need to transition into something. Sentries are obviously obsolete at this point and you little in the way of crowd control meaning your colossus can be picked off easily. As far as I can tell, VRs are the most versatile lategame option a Protoss has - immortal/chargelot/storm, however, is the best counter against Ultralisks. On November 11 2010 04:58 kcdc wrote: Whoops, lost my comment in posting, and don't have time to retype. To sum up, I agree that cannon expanding is viable on Shakuras, but I don't like it on any other map in the ladder pool. I disagree that sentry expand allows no pressure. If I'm going to gateway expand into 3-5 gate pressure, I want to have 5-6 sentries in my composition to allow me to isolate and pick off units, and still have forcefields leftover to retreat if necessary. You might as well get the sentries first because it allows an earlier expansion and more time to save energy. IMO, you can get pretty decent pressure with 3-gate sentry expand, add 2 more gates and a few stalkers, push out to secure a forward pylon, and adding just enough meaty right before you attack. Yeah you're right. There are a bunch of timing pushes which are possible after a sentry expand but for the most part I consider them midgame timing pushes rather than an early game push, purely because they are either exploiting the window before mutas or are punishing a quick third. I should add stuff about that. On November 11 2010 05:38 Shadrak wrote: Chargelots are great against lings and hydras (to a point, then you need storm as well) but royally suck against Roaches. Roaches tend to be the core unit of a Zerg midgame army thus I find Zealots obsolete. You will eventually have a ton of minerals and zero gas and I have tried powering all of that into Zealots. All it does is make you max out faster without adding any real benefits to your army. If you are using forcefields well, Zealots kinda defeat the purpose since they rush forward into range and die. The idea is to use FF to split the army then pick off half of it from a distance, something which Zealots just dont do.... better to invest those minerals into an expansion or cannons imo.Am I the only person who was surprised by the distinct lack of chargelots in both of the mid-game compositions? I had always treated chargelots as the backbone of my mid-game army vz Z but now it seems I've been doing it wrong all along? Learn something new every day I guess. (1600 P) On November 11 2010 06:06 Shadrak wrote: Colossus are the real damage dealers in the mix. The idea is to forcefield half of his army off, pull back a bit, then snipe off the isolated half from a distance. Any hydras should be stuck behind the FF so all of your units will be out of their range. Further, your army has significantly more range than the Zerg does and using FF basically turns that extra range into a tangible advantage. The mobility and "damage from a distance" of CSS makes it so strong.Well, forcefield placement is probably my weakest point with toss at the moment. I guess that's why I've shyed away from CSS type builds, but probably also why I'm around a 1/3 win rate vz Zerg.  From the picks that Plexa posted, it looked like he had 0 zealots out. Literally nothing but stalker/collosus/sentry. I never would have thought that was in any way viable because of the crap DPS stalkers/sentries do but I suppose collosus makes up for that? Stalkers do have high HP and can blink back so I guess they are the real tanks in this setup? On November 11 2010 06:46 LazyMacro wrote: You will want to build 1 obs and you won't want to build anymore (unless you have to). You want that obs to be able to snipe off creep highways. I used to use obs to scout Zerg, but they usually get an overseer, scout it, and pick it off and there goes 50/100 for nothing. Hallucination is better since it's flexible and in most cases cheaper than using Observers to scout. I will probably half answer my own question here, but why hallucination scouting over robo and obs? Is it just better to scout for "free" and simply tech properly from the information you gain than to blindly robo and find you don't need it? On November 11 2010 07:55 ZapRoffo wrote: Yeah I think they are significantly different from ground based games. I do really badly with phoenix play but I do know that they are a viable choice from the many replays I've watched. I don't know the specifics of the builds so I can't really give any more advice on them unfortunately Are phoenix openings a completely different beast then? You talk about them like they are viable to you but don't go into much information on them. I've been playing phoenix as my main build in PvZ, something like 1 gate stargate constant phoenix (VR to ward away roach stuff if that comes up) into forge and expansion. Is that too uneconomical against good players or too vulnerable to mass speedling or hydra busts (I'm not sure if my normal pattern of rushing to colossus tech after expanding handles that done efficiently)?  On November 11 2010 08:58 oprandom wrote: Um. Why is it totally wrong? 15 Nex is the only build which allows you to match his drone production without pressure. If you read further, you will see I have an entire section dedicated to pressure games? The point is, 15Nex you can compete without pressure, if you like, otherwise you can't."15 Nex allows you to keep your probe production matched with his drone production" Um this is totally wrong. People have the idea that Zerg can drone up with impunity. The key to TvZ and PvZ is to make them build units instead of drones. Make them build zerglings and spine crawlers - the earlier the better. Make them build roaches as you go air. If you do even a minimal amount of pressure and achieve this, T and P econ actually match Zerg's. The problem is a lot of noobs think you either have to go hard econ or attack and nothing inbetween. I've won so many games by sending a pair of marines or a single zealot super early and seeing how the zerg responds. Their correct response is to build four zerglings. If they build 2, they lose the battle. If they build 6-12 they're going to be way behind in econ and all I need is a bunker or stalkers with probes on standby to hold off a dozen zerglings trying to walk across the map. On November 11 2010 11:06 ZapRoffo wrote: I always get warpgate first hallucination second, but I think getting Hallucination first is possible if you are sentry expanding. It's up to whatever suits your style better imo.My 2nd question: for hallucinate usage you describe, does hallucination come before warp gates or after? That wasn't clear. On November 11 2010 11:33 whoopadeedoo wrote: I'm a strong believer in finding solutions to problems rather than demanding a patch. Mostly because if a patch does come, that can only strengthen the counters I already have in place. PvZ is imba at the moment because Protoss don't understand what's going on. The roach buff coupled with the fruitdealer revolution lead to old Protoss style becoming obsolete and we had to relearn everything. Before we would 2gate zealot every game into expand and use other variants of that, but with that option gone and stalker pressure getting held off better and better, we really didn't know what to do. Lastly the roach buff really made them difficult to deal with (particularly once upgrades kick in) but people like macseed are working out micro techniques to shut them down.Really great post, and spot on IME. I know you didn't want to QQ/"imba," but you did hint on it and I feel the same way re: muta balls and late game PvZ. Either some revolutionary metagame shift will have to occur or a patch is needed, but PvZ is imba right now due primarily due to how handcuffed toss is against Mutas and how weak Toss late game is vs Zerg. To win a macro game, it almost seems like Toss either has to guess the perfect army composition or hope his Zerg opponent makes serious mistakes. I think the roach buff was part of the problem, but the bigger reason why PvZ feels different nowadays is because Zerg is starting to realize how to play their race effectively (against P and T). | ||
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Megaliskuu
United States5123 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
First of all i'm not saying hallu is never worth it but in many cases I simply think getting a stargate or just scouting fast with a robo is more desireable. Forge expanding for example tends to get a cybercore and thus warpgate tech quite late which delays hallu by a lot, in that scenario a blind robo or stargate is much more desireable imo. Saying the koreans 'tend' to agree is also a bit nonsense as hallucination is definately the preferred method of scouting in general if you see stuff like GSL. Proposing to get hallucination before warpgate is completely laughable by the way... Also what is with this condescending tone about me not knowing about playing vs mutaling play? It's just some big bullshit and your method of just not getting phoenix if you were a bit late with them is just complete nonsense. Sure there are definite cases where not using phoenix to counter muta can be desireable (small map, timing push, having already invested considerably into other tech whatever) but in general phoenixes are the best play to counter it. That 2-3 phoenix you are ahead by not going a stargate preemptively instead of reactively isn't the end of the world if you are going 2 stargates. Alot of it what you are saying is simply bullshit, armor and shield upgrades aren't the end of the world against muta/ling play as they don't even do anything against splash if you are under guardian shield. Guardian shield already reduces splash to it's minimum (exception on your shields which is too expensive to upgrade) so not getting armor is hardly the end of the world. Phoenix stalker can work just as well agianst mass mutalisks (like 30 or so) instead of low numbers for which the reniehour game was a demonstration. Without phoenix it simply is not possible at every map to win vs mutaling, at LT like the socke game it's possible but something like jungle basin a good Z will just outexpand you while harassing non-stop (which blink stalkers don't stop in the way that phoenix + stalker does). Also about the sentries vs roach/hydra. They are quite good (if high on energy) but if you have to choose between getting a mineral build up because of rebuilding too many of them or simply not getting them anymore later and having enough gas to spend all minerals on stalkers i think the latter is better. It is not completely neccesary to box in roach/hydra if you have plenty stalker & immortals instead. Also about your socalled lategame voidrays, i said it sucks if you don't have some tech for it already because it is a VERY costly transition if you don't already have stargates (which according to your guide is not often if ever...). Sure voids can help alot with broodlords but for anything else they are not a neccesity imo. You can get immortal/ht/stalker/zealot at that point afterall which does quite well against any Z unit combo including ultralisks as well... Conveniently there are almost NO replays showing this so called great lategame option whereas for other arguments you do use replays or korean 'trends' to prove your points. In general I just think you are completely wrong about a few issue's in this matchup. Perhaps I am, there is no way ever to really win a discussion like this of course, but alot of replays and my personal experience just don't show the same picture of PvZ as you do. Most things I agree but I simply don't about your general assessment about how not viable phoenix and zealots are overall. Simply stating I don't know a clue and coming with nonsense arguments won't really help there either. | ||
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N3rV[Green]
United States1935 Posts
Useful hint, vs 1 queen, if you focus drones, a void can kill around 3-4 before its shields are down, also keep your void pack (3-5 is perfect) on a hotkey and CONSTANTLY move them around the map looking for a third base, scout lings/ovies and their army. My favorite thing to do i just park your voids right in range of drones, hit hold position, go do some stuff, come back and some drones are dead. Plus you just pissed him off. One of the best things about this is some zergs see it as pure all in, as in "if I build like 6 queens and stop the void rays and build some spore crawlers I win". Sadly this is no where near all in cause your main goal is a fast expansion. I recently put some replays of this in action in the replay thread up in General, Go check out my whole page of replays at that site for lots of good PvZ games. | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 11 2010 13:17 Markwerf wrote: Well put it this way. If you leave the obs in his base to scout it will eventually get picked off, so you have to constantly move the (slow) observer from your army into his main to scout. I think this is inferior to hallucination for all the reasons I've stated before. Uh ok... First of all i'm not saying hallu is never worth it but in many cases I simply think getting a stargate or just scouting fast with a robo is more desireable. Forge expanding for example tends to get a cybercore and thus warpgate tech quite late which delays hallu by a lot, in that scenario a blind robo or stargate is much more desireable imo. Saying the koreans 'tend' to agree is also a bit nonsense as hallucination is definately the preferred method of scouting in general if you see stuff like GSL. Proposing to get hallucination before warpgate is completely laughable by the way... Also what is with this condescending tone about me not knowing about playing vs mutaling play? It's just some big bullshit and your method of just not getting phoenix if you were a bit late with them is just complete nonsense. Sure there are definite cases where not using phoenix to counter muta can be desireable (small map, timing push, having already invested considerably into other tech whatever) but in general phoenixes are the best play to counter it. That 2-3 phoenix you are ahead by not going a stargate preemptively instead of reactively isn't the end of the world if you are going 2 stargates. I don't get your point. I've already said that 2 stargate phoenix, at worst, comes out equal against muta/ling. What I am saying is that if you scout the spire too late and throw down 2 reactionary stargates there is no way your phoenix count will get high enough to win. 2 Stargates is quite an investment off of two base (particularly gas) and every other part of your army will suffer. That's what I'm getting at, if you're not going stargate first then don't bother putting it down if you scout spire - get storm instead. Alot of it what you are saying is simply bullshit, armor and shield upgrades aren't the end of the world against muta/ling play as they don't even do anything against splash if you are under guardian shield. Guardian shield already reduces splash to it's minimum (exception on your shields which is too expensive to upgrade) so not getting armor is hardly the end of the world. Phoenix stalker can work just as well agianst mass mutalisks (like 30 or so) instead of low numbers for which the reniehour game was a demonstration. Without phoenix it simply is not possible at every map to win vs mutaling, at LT like the socke game it's possible but something like jungle basin a good Z will just outexpand you while harassing non-stop (which blink stalkers don't stop in the way that phoenix + stalker does). Guardian shield doesn't affect lings, which if not kept in check will deal ridiculous amounts of damage to your stalker blob. Falling behind in armour upgrades also means that if he decides to transition to ultra or roach or hydra then your units are just like paper. It's a very good idea to stay ahead/equal on upgrades, and the zergs I play with agree (all 2k+). Also about the sentries vs roach/hydra. They are quite good (if high on energy) but if you have to choose between getting a mineral build up because of rebuilding too many of them or simply not getting them anymore later and having enough gas to spend all minerals on stalkers i think the latter is better. It is not completely neccesary to box in roach/hydra if you have plenty stalker & immortals instead. I guess that's your personal preference, but in my experience having forcefield augments the strength of your army tenfold. And once again, I think if you look to the korean scene you'll see that forcefields are critical in midgame. Also about your socalled lategame voidrays, i said it sucks if you don't have some tech for it already because it is a VERY costly transition if you don't already have stargates (which according to your guide is not often if ever...). Sure voids can help alot with broodlords but for anything else they are not a neccesity imo. You can get immortal/ht/stalker/zealot at that point afterall which does quite well against any Z unit combo including ultralisks as well... Conveniently there are almost NO replays showing this so called great lategame option whereas for other arguments you do use replays or korean 'trends' to prove your points. Here you go - Hasuobs vs Haypro. Check the other games from that series as well since I'm sure there was another game that went VR as well. I think that was before the VR nerf though, although that doesn't really change the effectiveness at this stage in the game. It's not wildly popular at the moment, mostly because Protoss are winning with midgame timing pushes at the moment and the late game is unexplored but once we work things out a bit more then I'm confident this will become the norm. Further, if you can point me towards a high level game where a Protoss wins a 30+ minute game it would be appreciated - because having seen every PvZ posted (and a bunch of unreleased top reps) there hasn't been a game a protoss has won that has gone into the lategame! In general I just think you are completely wrong about a few issue's in this matchup. Perhaps I am, there is no way ever to really win a discussion like this of course, but alot of replays and my personal experience just don't show the same picture of PvZ as you do. Most things I agree but I simply don't about your general assessment about how not viable phoenix and zealots are overall. My assessment of Phoenixs are that they are completely viable, but I don't know enough about phoenix openings to write a comprehensive guide. Our point of difference is whether you can scout a spire and then build 2 stargates as a counter - you seem to be saying that this is the correct response, whereas I disagree. I think Zealots are basically useless aside from meatshielding lings and ultralisks. Chargelots are good against hydra, but unfortunately they are usually accompanied by many roaches, which Zealots suck against. I would rather have colossi or storm to deal with those few hydra.Simply stating I don't know a clue and coming with nonsense arguments won't really help there either. On November 11 2010 13:41 N3rV[Green] wrote: VR openings are viable, but not mainstream, that's why I didn't include them If it hasn't been mentioned before, My current favorite PvZ build is the 1 gate void ray FE. The basic idea is get a void out as soon as possible, and go kill just about anything and everything you can get your greedy hands on. Take your natural expo after the second void pops out, you should have 2-3 zeals a stalker and maybe a sentry making or so. Still on 1 gate as well. Useful hint, vs 1 queen, if you focus drones, a void can kill around 3-4 before its shields are down, also keep your void pack (3-5 is perfect) on a hotkey and CONSTANTLY move them around the map looking for a third base, scout lings/ovies and their army. My favorite thing to do i just park your voids right in range of drones, hit hold position, go do some stuff, come back and some drones are dead. Plus you just pissed him off. One of the best things about this is some zergs see it as pure all in, as in "if I build like 6 queens and stop the void rays and build some spore crawlers I win". Sadly this is no where near all in cause your main goal is a fast expansion. I recently put some replays of this in action in the replay thread up in General, Go check out my whole page of replays at that site for lots of good PvZ games. Personally I really like this build that Macseed is using at the moment (basically 2-3 stalker pressure -> expand -> VR)http://rep.sc2.com.cn/detail-3290.html http://rep.sc2.com.cn/detail-3291.html Both those games demonstrate the style well. I think it's very effective overall | ||
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HydroXy
United States513 Posts
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WindOw
Sweden407 Posts
I would like to add my opinion regarding the late game transitioning into 2 SG VR, this is something I've actually used couple of times. Depending on how the game progresses/looks i usually make another transition after that, into carriers! If you have the economy, go for it! Also use sentries to hallucinate up few extra carriers before engaging Thanks for sharing once again. | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 11 2010 14:29 WindOw wrote: Sentries can't hallucinate carriers....Excellent post, protoss is really struggling at the moment and this will surely help alot of toss players. I would like to add my opinion regarding the late game transitioning into 2 SG VR, this is something I've actually used couple of times. Depending on how the game progresses/looks i usually make another transition after that, into carriers! If you have the economy, go for it! Also use sentries to hallucinate up few extra carriers before engaging Thanks for sharing once again. | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
I started reading with the mindset of "lol he's trying to write a guide about all of PvZ? haha let's see how much I can disagree with him." I read the entire thing, and although I can nitpick at details the general concepts are all 100% solid. I'd like to stress 2 things the the OP mentiond that haven't really been discussed much in the comments - upgrades and expo timing (especially getting your 3rd at about the same time the zerg gets his 3rd). Start upgrading early, and keep upgrading. Use chronos on upgrades. Once you get into mid game with 2-3 expos I find that most players (myself included) don't use all their chronos - spend it on forge upgrades! And getting your 3rd expo up earlier does feel weird if you're used to PvZ in BW. But especially against hydra/roach, it's much safer in SC2 because at that stage of the game, if the zerg wants to attack he basically has to commit to it. With the threat of force fields and the slow off-creep speed, it's actually pretty tough for zerg to be aggressive. 2 gate VR late game is also wonderful. I started doing this myself without being aware of anyone else doing it just to counter brood lords at first. Seriously, there is like no other way to kill brood lords, and I was starting to see brood lords being more popular than ultras late game especially on some maps. Then I realized that VRs are at least decent if not great against other zerg units too, so now I'm pre emptively making them in late game even if I don't scout brood lords. For people saying that it's expensive - you don't have to invest in 2 stargates, a fleet beacon, an attack upgrade, and speed all at once. You can just start with 1 gate void rays, and gradually add on the other tech. Even a small handful of slow void rays can be really useful - I don't know how many times I've faced a late game zerg army that ended up with no anti-air. | ||
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
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