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[G] PvZ Overview - Page 7

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Prev 1 5 6 7 8 9 17 Next All
whoopadeedoo
Profile Joined June 2010
United States427 Posts
November 11 2010 18:42 GMT
#121
Phoenixes work up to the point where either:
1. Zerg has +1 saturated base
2. Infestors are in play
3. Zerg tech switches in a heartbeat.

In other words, they do not work as a Muta counter in late game.
NET
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States703 Posts
November 11 2010 19:25 GMT
#122
Beautiful. Voidrays, pure genius. This write up is perfect, thanks for your incites Plexa.

A tear of joy just rolled down my face.
"Dark Templar are the saviors of the Protoss Race." -Artosis
Hane
Profile Joined November 2010
France210 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-11 19:37:05
November 11 2010 19:35 GMT
#123
imo the hardest part is the early game@prevent zerg from dronning and dont fail on speedlings(+roachs) all in.
If the toss have a good early, the mid game will be fine (imo).

Nice guide !
Ratel
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada184 Posts
November 11 2010 19:54 GMT
#124
after infinite struggle in pvz, i figured out that the best map to play against zergs are lost temple and metalopolis, if you spawn far away from your opponent, i prefer to go 15 nexus into 15 forge (extremely greedy but safe build) after scouting him and not seeing an early pool, if the positions are close i go 2 gate zealots pressure into 4 gate +1 timing push, works perfectly if executed correctly. i also like pheonix + robo builds - prepares you against mutas and hydras that will counter your phenoixes.
whoopadeedoo
Profile Joined June 2010
United States427 Posts
November 11 2010 23:39 GMT
#125
I think PvZ can be summed up in one word: Pressure.

Or more precisely, constant pressure. Plexa has it dead on: you can't leave zerg to their own devices. If you don't apply pressure every couple minutes, you will be run over. This is probably the most frustrating part for toss players as this isn't true in PvP or PvT (and not true of P play in BW either).
Antisocialmunky
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5912 Posts
November 11 2010 23:54 GMT
#126
Wow.

This.

Is.

Epic.

Should be stickied just to improve the overall quality of the Strategy forum. :D Even through I don't play this matchup at all, this is very insightful and well written.
[゚n゚] SSSSssssssSSsss ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Marine/Raven Guide:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605
TrueRedemption
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States313 Posts
November 12 2010 01:37 GMT
#127
Absolutely fantastic write up Plexa, and damn straight mothership is going to find a role PvZ =)

I am also one of the apparently numerous Phoenix believers, but I cannot echo enough your description as preventative not reactionary. Phoenix are one of the most temporally sensitive units in the game, there is a definite window in the current metagame, but once spore crawlers, extra queens, or any lair tech unit gets established, phoenix potential plummets. The intel, harassment, and brief period of map control they offer can justify their cost, but depending on how prepared the zerg is squeezing out the cost efficiency is not for the faint of heart. Personally I rarely make more than 5-6 phoenix unless the zerg was unprepared or is responding terribly, beyond that number the window closes too quickly; the scouting and soft contain they can put on muta harass is very helpful, but not worth producing more phoenix for. Numerous other openings can accomplish similar pressure often times more safely than the paper planes, and I believe this is the reason phoenix are seldom seen at major events.
Writer
ThatsNoMoon
Profile Joined March 2010
Mexico344 Posts
November 12 2010 01:45 GMT
#128
I know you said you weren't going to discuss the 5/7RR but say you're not expecting this(yet) and you put your gate down, then your core, start second gas and then boom your probe scouts roach warren or you dont see an FE.

How do you respond?
Cannons, robo, 2 more gates?
How bout unit composition? You'll have the initial zealot then get a sentry? stalker?

I just switched to toss so yeah...
Got neurosis from Artosis cause you bunker rushed my heart GG baby, lets go crazy cause the game's about to start
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
November 12 2010 03:49 GMT
#129
On November 11 2010 21:49 Markwerf wrote:
snip

I think sleepingdog has it nailed down right. If you have a ground army and see the spire with whatever you're scouting with, then attacking with that and killing some drones should be enough for you to pump phoenix and not be behind. Simply sitting there, adding two stargates, and making phoenix will probably let the zerg run over you.

On November 11 2010 22:40 Applecakes wrote:
Sorry if I'm not directly contributing to the strategy discussion (which is awesome btw) but the gom clan event on atm just showed another PvZ with a 3gate expo into stargate opening against fruitdealer. 1 void and 2 phoenix was enough to force fruit into roach/hydra play. It looked very promising when followed up colossus. But I feel it was very map dependent. Lost temple made it a lot easier for the toss to expand and harass than on, say, sakuras or cross position metal.

Another PvZ coming up. Hopefully I can learn something from it (looks like 3gate blink stalker with voids!)
Thats generally the idea behind Stargate play - forcing them into hydras which get murdered by Colossi.

On November 12 2010 03:42 whoopadeedoo wrote:
Phoenixes work up to the point where either:
1. Zerg has +1 saturated base
2. Infestors are in play
3. Zerg tech switches in a heartbeat.

In other words, they do not work as a Muta counter in late game.
They do actually. replay
On November 12 2010 10:45 ThatsNoMoon wrote:
I know you said you weren't going to discuss the 5/7RR but say you're not expecting this(yet) and you put your gate down, then your core, start second gas and then boom your probe scouts roach warren or you dont see an FE.

How do you respond?
Cannons, robo, 2 more gates?
How bout unit composition? You'll have the initial zealot then get a sentry? stalker?

I just switched to toss so yeah...
Assuming you're going for a standard 1~3 gate expand build, I would just get out sentries and put down a forge. With good forcefields the roach pressure can't break your ramp (except on blistering...) and then you can expand with sentries/cannons while he plays economy catchup.
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
kzn
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1218 Posts
November 12 2010 04:01 GMT
#130
On November 12 2010 12:49 Plexa wrote:
Assuming you're going for a standard 1~3 gate expand build, I would just get out sentries and put down a forge. With good forcefields the roach pressure can't break your ramp (except on blistering...) and then you can expand with sentries/cannons while he plays economy catchup.


What if you're going 1gate expo and your first buildings are down your ramp to start a wall with your Nexus >.>
Like a G6
sjschmidt93
Profile Joined April 2010
United States2518 Posts
November 12 2010 04:03 GMT
#131
Thanks, this is by far my weakest matchup. It seems like if I don't win in the first 10 minutes or put a serious hurt on him I won't win.
My grandpa could've proxied better, and not only does he have arthritis, he's also dead. -Sean "Day[9]" Plott
b_unnies
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
3579 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-11-12 04:05:05
November 12 2010 04:04 GMT
#132
If late game void rays is very good against Z late game, how can they arent that good against Z midgame since even in lategame Z can stop ultra/brood compo and switch back to a roach/hydra composition once you have limited stalkers. since you're stopping stalker production, what should P be producing out of gateways ?
sjschmidt93
Profile Joined April 2010
United States2518 Posts
November 12 2010 04:05 GMT
#133
On November 12 2010 13:01 kzn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2010 12:49 Plexa wrote:
Assuming you're going for a standard 1~3 gate expand build, I would just get out sentries and put down a forge. With good forcefields the roach pressure can't break your ramp (except on blistering...) and then you can expand with sentries/cannons while he plays economy catchup.


What if you're going 1gate expo and your first buildings are down your ramp to start a wall with your Nexus >.>


This isn't really safe anymore, it may work on maps where your pylon can cover your ramp and your natural's choke, but otherwise it's tough. You should just put your 2nd gate and forge down there once you move down with your sentries.
My grandpa could've proxied better, and not only does he have arthritis, he's also dead. -Sean "Day[9]" Plott
EliteReplay
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Dominican Republic913 Posts
November 12 2010 04:16 GMT
#134
nice write up man, thanks i will read it on my work xD
if play random i can't call any race imba?
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
November 12 2010 04:33 GMT
#135
On November 12 2010 13:01 kzn wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 12 2010 12:49 Plexa wrote:
Assuming you're going for a standard 1~3 gate expand build, I would just get out sentries and put down a forge. With good forcefields the roach pressure can't break your ramp (except on blistering...) and then you can expand with sentries/cannons while he plays economy catchup.


What if you're going 1gate expo and your first buildings are down your ramp to start a wall with your Nexus >.>
Unless the map is Shakuras, this isn't safe any more and even then I would prefer forge first.
On November 12 2010 13:04 b_unnies wrote:
If late game void rays is very good against Z late game, how can they arent that good against Z midgame since even in lategame Z can stop ultra/brood compo and switch back to a roach/hydra composition once you have limited stalkers. since you're stopping stalker production, what should P be producing out of gateways ?

It's an option, check out macseed's recent games to see their effectiveness. Generally though, I would prefer powering the gas into Colossi/Templar since they are more useful . Lategame you want to produce Zealots against Ultras and Stalkers against BLs.
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
T.O.P. *
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Hong Kong4685 Posts
November 12 2010 04:43 GMT
#136
I don't agree with void rays being the futures of late game pvz. IMO, archons are much better. They own mutas and against broodlords they work unless the broodlords are on a cliff. The Archon, colossus immortal army is what protoss players should aim for. The Archon acts as a great meatshield since ultras only do 15 damage against them.
Oracle comes in, Scvs go down, never a miscommunication.
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
November 12 2010 05:03 GMT
#137
On November 12 2010 13:43 T.O.P. wrote:
I don't agree with void rays being the futures of late game pvz. IMO, archons are much better. They own mutas and against broodlords they work unless the broodlords are on a cliff. The Archon, colossus immortal army is what protoss players should aim for. The Archon acts as a great meatshield since ultras only do 15 damage against them.

There are two reasons why Archons are limited in use. Firstly, the fact that they cost so much gas. You're already stretched for gas as is building Colossi/Templar and without depleted geysers you dont have that constant trickle of gas which made lategame archons in SC1 so good. Next, you can get 2 VRs for every 1 Archon (gas is the limiting resource, not minerals, and 1 VR = 1 Archon in gas). Now I'm not saying Archons are bad in the lategame, quite the opposite actually, they're very very good. They just can't be massed so definitely merge those templar into archons after storming but I don't think you can really build a viable lategame army around them.

Dimaga vs Hasuobs game 3 from their recent series demonstrates a number of things I raised in this guide:
- The brutality of 2-2 upgrades
- Why Zealots do not mesh well with Sentry/Colossus
- The difficulty in securing a third expansion if you dont pressure
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
leo23
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States3075 Posts
November 12 2010 05:18 GMT
#138
As a zerg, this thread happened to me today. We got to the late game and he went voidrays colossi sentry and some stalkers... and guess what? the 400/400 pdd aswell. How do I counter these voidrays when they are in the mass? I find that hydralisks are too weak, the same for mutalisks.
banelings
Dox
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Australia1199 Posts
November 12 2010 05:22 GMT
#139
Excellent article, enjoyed the read. :D
@NvDox | Plantronics Nv: Rossi . mOOnGLaDe . deth . JazBas | @NvSC2 | @NvCoD | @NvLeague | @NvHearthstone | @NvDotA2 | @PLT_MF
trueg0x
Profile Joined April 2010
South Africa86 Posts
November 12 2010 05:37 GMT
#140
Man plexa, thanks so much for this. I have recently been stomped so badly by zerg, it seemed to me that if a zerg could just get its FE up, and counter your pressure, you would loose. I started getting really frustrated and didnt want to play anymore. Now i am totally inspired again! Thanks man!
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