EPT1. Zerg has +1 saturated base
2. Infestors are in play
3. Zerg tech switches in a heartbeat.
In other words, they do not work as a Muta counter in late game.
[G] PvZ Overview - Page 7
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
1. Zerg has +1 saturated base 2. Infestors are in play 3. Zerg tech switches in a heartbeat. In other words, they do not work as a Muta counter in late game. | ||
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NET
United States703 Posts
A tear of joy just rolled down my face. | ||
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Hane
France210 Posts
If the toss have a good early, the mid game will be fine (imo). Nice guide ! | ||
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Ratel
Canada184 Posts
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
Or more precisely, constant pressure. Plexa has it dead on: you can't leave zerg to their own devices. If you don't apply pressure every couple minutes, you will be run over. This is probably the most frustrating part for toss players as this isn't true in PvP or PvT (and not true of P play in BW either). | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5913 Posts
This. Is. Epic. Should be stickied just to improve the overall quality of the Strategy forum. :D Even through I don't play this matchup at all, this is very insightful and well written. | ||
TrueRedemption
United States313 Posts
I am also one of the apparently numerous Phoenix believers, but I cannot echo enough your description as preventative not reactionary. Phoenix are one of the most temporally sensitive units in the game, there is a definite window in the current metagame, but once spore crawlers, extra queens, or any lair tech unit gets established, phoenix potential plummets. The intel, harassment, and brief period of map control they offer can justify their cost, but depending on how prepared the zerg is squeezing out the cost efficiency is not for the faint of heart. Personally I rarely make more than 5-6 phoenix unless the zerg was unprepared or is responding terribly, beyond that number the window closes too quickly; the scouting and soft contain they can put on muta harass is very helpful, but not worth producing more phoenix for. Numerous other openings can accomplish similar pressure often times more safely than the paper planes, and I believe this is the reason phoenix are seldom seen at major events. | ||
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ThatsNoMoon
Mexico344 Posts
How do you respond? Cannons, robo, 2 more gates? How bout unit composition? You'll have the initial zealot then get a sentry? stalker? I just switched to toss so yeah... | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 11 2010 21:49 Markwerf wrote: snip I think sleepingdog has it nailed down right. If you have a ground army and see the spire with whatever you're scouting with, then attacking with that and killing some drones should be enough for you to pump phoenix and not be behind. Simply sitting there, adding two stargates, and making phoenix will probably let the zerg run over you. On November 11 2010 22:40 Applecakes wrote: Thats generally the idea behind Stargate play - forcing them into hydras which get murdered by Colossi. Sorry if I'm not directly contributing to the strategy discussion (which is awesome btw) but the gom clan event on atm just showed another PvZ with a 3gate expo into stargate opening against fruitdealer. 1 void and 2 phoenix was enough to force fruit into roach/hydra play. It looked very promising when followed up colossus. But I feel it was very map dependent. Lost temple made it a lot easier for the toss to expand and harass than on, say, sakuras or cross position metal. Another PvZ coming up. Hopefully I can learn something from it  (looks like 3gate blink stalker with voids!)On November 12 2010 03:42 whoopadeedoo wrote: They do actually. replayPhoenixes work up to the point where either: 1. Zerg has +1 saturated base 2. Infestors are in play 3. Zerg tech switches in a heartbeat. In other words, they do not work as a Muta counter in late game. On November 12 2010 10:45 ThatsNoMoon wrote: Assuming you're going for a standard 1~3 gate expand build, I would just get out sentries and put down a forge. With good forcefields the roach pressure can't break your ramp (except on blistering...) and then you can expand with sentries/cannons while he plays economy catchup. I know you said you weren't going to discuss the 5/7RR but say you're not expecting this(yet) and you put your gate down, then your core, start second gas and then boom your probe scouts roach warren or you dont see an FE. How do you respond? Cannons, robo, 2 more gates? How bout unit composition? You'll have the initial zealot then get a sentry? stalker? I just switched to toss so yeah... | ||
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kzn
United States1218 Posts
On November 12 2010 12:49 Plexa wrote: Assuming you're going for a standard 1~3 gate expand build, I would just get out sentries and put down a forge. With good forcefields the roach pressure can't break your ramp (except on blistering...) and then you can expand with sentries/cannons while he plays economy catchup. What if you're going 1gate expo and your first buildings are down your ramp to start a wall with your Nexus >.> | ||
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sjschmidt93
United States2518 Posts
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b_unnies
3579 Posts
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sjschmidt93
United States2518 Posts
On November 12 2010 13:01 kzn wrote: What if you're going 1gate expo and your first buildings are down your ramp to start a wall with your Nexus >.> This isn't really safe anymore, it may work on maps where your pylon can cover your ramp and your natural's choke, but otherwise it's tough. You should just put your 2nd gate and forge down there once you move down with your sentries. | ||
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EliteReplay
Dominican Republic913 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 12 2010 13:01 kzn wrote: Unless the map is Shakuras, this isn't safe any more and even then I would prefer forge first. What if you're going 1gate expo and your first buildings are down your ramp to start a wall with your Nexus >.> On November 12 2010 13:04 b_unnies wrote: If late game void rays is very good against Z late game, how can they arent that good against Z midgame since even in lategame Z can stop ultra/brood compo and switch back to a roach/hydra composition once you have limited stalkers. since you're stopping stalker production, what should P be producing out of gateways ? It's an option, check out macseed's recent games to see their effectiveness. Generally though, I would prefer powering the gas into Colossi/Templar since they are more useful . Lategame you want to produce Zealots against Ultras and Stalkers against BLs. | ||
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 12 2010 13:43 T.O.P. wrote: I don't agree with void rays being the futures of late game pvz. IMO, archons are much better. They own mutas and against broodlords they work unless the broodlords are on a cliff. The Archon, colossus immortal army is what protoss players should aim for. The Archon acts as a great meatshield since ultras only do 15 damage against them. There are two reasons why Archons are limited in use. Firstly, the fact that they cost so much gas. You're already stretched for gas as is building Colossi/Templar and without depleted geysers you dont have that constant trickle of gas which made lategame archons in SC1 so good. Next, you can get 2 VRs for every 1 Archon (gas is the limiting resource, not minerals, and 1 VR = 1 Archon in gas). Now I'm not saying Archons are bad in the lategame, quite the opposite actually, they're very very good. They just can't be massed  so definitely merge those templar into archons after storming but I don't think you can really build a viable lategame army around them.Dimaga vs Hasuobs game 3 from their recent series demonstrates a number of things I raised in this guide: - The brutality of 2-2 upgrades - Why Zealots do not mesh well with Sentry/Colossus - The difficulty in securing a third expansion if you dont pressure | ||
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leo23
United States3075 Posts
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Dox
Australia1199 Posts
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trueg0x
South Africa86 Posts
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