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Shadrak
United States490 Posts
Am I the only one seeing an ungodly amount of zerg on the ladder? The problem I have with most matches is that I feel like I can never catch my breath to try to tech. I'm either defending a push, or trying to pressure to stop droning and it always seems like if I try to tech I end up either dying to a early/mid game push or having Z get way ahead on econ. Do you have any tips for feeling out when its safe to tech? | ||
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theqat
United States2856 Posts
 Thanks for the post, it's very informative from a Zerg perspective too . . . | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
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cydial
United States750 Posts
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IHaveCrayons
United States6 Posts
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schmubob
Germany10 Posts
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MangoTango
United States3670 Posts
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Whiplash
United States2929 Posts
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FoBuLouS
United States570 Posts
 What I'm wondering is how do most Protosses get their natural expansion? Do you protect a 15 nexus because when I'm playing it always feels dangerous when I expand early versus zerg, esp. against early pools. I don't like to forge FE because it feels map dependent. As you said, 3 gate and then expand feels too late. Also, whats a good time to get a forge in the early game to start that +1 upgrade if you don't forge FE? | ||
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Divine-Sneaker
Denmark1225 Posts
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Dystisis
Norway713 Posts
On November 12 2010 16:10 cydial wrote: Stalkers being slow? Aren't they the fastest unit in the game as they are (no upgrades). They are not slow, they shoot slow. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 12 2010 14:18 leo23 wrote: As a zerg, this thread happened to me today. We got to the late game and he went voidrays colossi sentry and some stalkers... and guess what? the 400/400 pdd aswell. How do I counter these voidrays when they are in the mass? I find that hydralisks are too weak, the same for mutalisks. I don't think there is a Zerg army that can beat a maxed Protoss with that composition. The reason being that Zerg needs to have more shit than the Protoss but he can't because of the supply cap. Muta/Ultra is your best bet against this composition in my experiences, but it will definitely take more than one wave of attacks to kill that deathball. Actually, now that I think about it I've never lost a game when I got that composition and just to drive the point home: http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa//sc2_reps/0538_Jimdiddy_Plexa_Zv.sc2replay Jimdiddy is the second best Zerg on SEA afaik behind glade. Fortunately he is a macro player and never likes to go in for the kill, rather expand and make a ton of crap. That gave me enough time to crank out some VRs and crush him. On November 12 2010 14:37 trueg0x wrote: Yeah, that's how I felt as well after the patch. Any one of Jimdiddy/Camlito/Microlisk can verify that claim. There is no question that the matchup got a lot harder, but I'm confident that that's because our playstyles became obsolete (I used to exclusively play 2gate into sentry expand which now royally sucks) and we've had to reinvent ourselves. I wouldn't say it's imbalanced because there are a lot of interesting things that haven't been explored yet Man plexa, thanks so much for this. I have recently been stomped so badly by zerg, it seemed to me that if a zerg could just get its FE up, and counter your pressure, you would loose. I started getting really frustrated and didnt want to play anymore. Now i am totally inspired again! Thanks man! On November 12 2010 14:51 Shadrak wrote: Upload some reps and I'll happily review them. I agree that there is a steep learning curve. Learning how to pressure properly with your stalkers early game, especially after you've been a passive player for so long, is fucking hard - for lack of a better word. It's really easy to lose heart and give up, but if you persevere the rewards will be totally worth it.Hmm tried to implement this stuff and it didn't seem to go over too well. Played 12 games tonight, 9 (!) were zerg and I won exactly 0 of those. I guess it takes time to adjust to new strats but PvZ seems to have a hell of a learning curve. Am I the only one seeing an ungodly amount of zerg on the ladder? The problem I have with most matches is that I feel like I can never catch my breath to try to tech. I'm either defending a push, or trying to pressure to stop droning and it always seems like if I try to tech I end up either dying to a early/mid game push or having Z get way ahead on econ. Do you have any tips for feeling out when its safe to tech? On November 12 2010 15:24 citi.zen wrote: The Dimaga vs Hasuobs series reinforces my view that 15 nexus/phoenix is really hard to pull off. It was only Ok before Z knew how to react and sort of panicked a bit, if they stay calm and double expand they will slowly pull ahead even if the harass kills many queens/drones. It's hard to pull off but Hasu didn't get this third anywhere near fast enough. SC2 isn't BW, and Protoss can aggressively expand rather safely. As long as your not losing probes its fine. Same with Zerg actually, if you just take out their hatch without killing any drones they're not that far behind.. With regard to tech, be thankful that Robotics tech is really accessible. Generally after I expand my next few buildings are tech buildings - generally a robotics and a robotics bay. Sentry/Cannons can hold off a lot of funny stuff early on so you can feel quite safe to tech. On November 12 2010 17:05 Whiplash wrote: Excellent post Plexa! I'm over 2k but I still think that there's a lot of great information here for players to use, even on a high level of play. I'd like to add that storm/colossus/voidray is most likely the best unit composition late game, as seen by ret vs naniwa showmatch game 1 on lost temple. Voidrays + a SSC army are great mid/late game transitional army as well. Thanks! Completely forgot about that game. I remember watching it and going "there is no way nani is going to win this" and then he gets VRs and rapes. xD On November 12 2010 18:04 FoBuLouS wrote: These days I always get my natural behind my pressure. Be that after a dual chronoboosted stalker pair or after a 4gate blink push - either way I'll put down my natural once my stalkers are on their way. Either my forge is the last building I build before my Nexus (if im feeling cautious, like after 2 stalker push) or its the first building after my Nexus is started - since after that I'm pretty much only going to be building sentries. Very insightful read, thanks a lot Plexa! You always help my Protoss by a lot! What I'm wondering is how do most Protosses get their natural expansion? Do you protect a 15 nexus because when I'm playing it always feels dangerous when I expand early versus zerg, esp. against early pools. I don't like to forge FE because it feels map dependent. As you said, 3 gate and then expand feels too late. Also, whats a good time to get a forge in the early game to start that +1 upgrade if you don't forge FE? re: Phoenix discussion; this replay further demonstrates that pressure -> 2stargate works wonders against mutaling | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
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kar1181
United Kingdom515 Posts
It's really got me excited to out and practice a heap using these tips. Once again thank you so much for contributing such a detailed play guide for us struggling protoss | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
Just gonna take it a bit further. Assuming you're right and the Voidray with ground army is the desired late game composition of PvZ. Let's take a look at the options available if you open with 1 early stargate. So this is a mid-game transition having secured your expansion in the way you mentioned. Adding the stargate after the 3rd/4th gate. This takes away roach pressure as chronoing a few VRs should simply end the game there as in Nony vs IdrA on Blistering sands. If the Zerg goes Hydra/Roach take your expo they are immobile and incapable of real pressure. So take an early 3rd expansion and go for the SSC combo you mentioned earlier. The harass option is now in your hands not the Zerg. At this stage you've really taken the initiative from the Zerg and you can justifiably get the +1 air weapons too preparing for the late game. If the Zerg goes the more popular Muta/Ling route you're still in a good position. Of course you can't harass in the situation because you'll undoubtably be outnumbered. Instead of moving out and harassing with your pheonix use them defensively and alongside your army. The speed and sniping power of the Pheonix will be an incredibly efficient way of shutting down harass while you mass up. Again it allows early +1 air and almost forces the Zerg to maintain the muta-count. This reduces the gas available to the Z for tech and ground upgrades. If the muta-count drops then you can harass yourself and throw in some DTs with your army. The Pheonixes will kill overseers incredibly fast allowing the DTs free reign over the Zerg army. Now I haven't ever seen someone use this alongside an IST combo but perhaps this is something to consider too. | ||
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Alphasquad
Austria505 Posts
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On November 12 2010 20:17 Alphasquad wrote: wouldnt be the best counter against void/coloss/sentry be a heavy corruptor/hydra army? i havent faced that yet but corruptors beat colossi quite fast and do well against voidrays too Voidrays kill corruptors fast because of their +armoured damage. you're better off using hydra's versus voidrays because you need to outnumber the voidrays by quite a lot if you want to kill them with mutalisks/corruptors. | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
On November 12 2010 20:38 Chaosvuistje wrote: Voidrays kill corruptors fast because of their +armoured damage. you're better off using hydra's versus voidrays because you need to outnumber the voidrays by quite a lot if you want to kill them with mutalisks/corruptors. And then of course Hydras get raped by Collosus or Templar. Especially vs Templars off creep mmmm barbecue. | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 12 2010 20:15 Klive5ive wrote: This is a style I'm quite fond of and, as I've mentioned throughout the thread, macseed has been employing it with good success recently. Here are three of his replays;Beautifully written as always Plexa. Just gonna take it a bit further. Assuming you're right and the Voidray with ground army is the desired late game composition of PvZ. Let's take a look at the options available if you open with 1 early stargate. So this is a mid-game transition having secured your expansion in the way you mentioned. Adding the stargate after the 3rd/4th gate. This takes away roach pressure as chronoing a few VRs should simply end the game there as in Nony vs IdrA on Blistering sands. If the Zerg goes Hydra/Roach take your expo they are immobile and incapable of real pressure. So take an early 3rd expansion and go for the SSC combo you mentioned earlier. The harass option is now in your hands not the Zerg. At this stage you've really taken the initiative from the Zerg and you can justifiably get the +1 air weapons too preparing for the late game. If the Zerg goes the more popular Muta/Ling route you're still in a good position. Of course you can't harass in the situation because you'll undoubtably be outnumbered. Instead of moving out and harassing with your pheonix use them defensively and alongside your army. The speed and sniping power of the Pheonix will be an incredibly efficient way of shutting down harass while you mass up. Again it allows early +1 air and almost forces the Zerg to maintain the muta-count. This reduces the gas available to the Z for tech and ground upgrades. If the muta-count drops then you can harass yourself and throw in some DTs with your army. The Pheonixes will kill overseers incredibly fast allowing the DTs free reign over the Zerg army. Now I haven't ever seen someone use this alongside an IST combo but perhaps this is something to consider too. http://rep.sc2.com.cn/detail-3289.html http://rep.sc2.com.cn/detail-3290.html http://rep.sc2.com.cn/detail-3291.html In particular, the last game on Xel'Naga shows how he is able to get to the Colossus/VR combination in the midgame and has good success with it. On November 12 2010 20:17 Alphasquad wrote: With surplus stalkers and a good handful of VRs, and the fact that corruptors only do full damage to massive units, I don't think corruptors are the answer... I could be wrong, late game PvZ is really unexplored! wouldnt be the best counter against void/coloss/sentry be a heavy corruptor/hydra army? i havent faced that yet but corruptors beat colossi quite fast and do well against voidrays too | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
On November 12 2010 20:46 Klive5ive wrote: And then of course Hydras get raped by Collosus or Templar. Especially vs Templars off creep mmmm barbecue. Exactly. Single player spoilers inside + Show Spoiler + Anybody remember the protosses last stand mission? What units did you build off to hold off over 2000 zerg units? I'm pretty sure it was collosi into voidrays, into voidray carrier. The PvZ matchup definitely is volatile. The early and midgame filled with clutch decisions about where to place forcefields, what units to correspond to the zergs unit composition ( mutaling or hydraroach ). However, when posed the question, if you could have 10 units from the protoss arsenal right now, which one would it be? Some might say 10 collosi, I would definitely go for voidrays or carriers. People still have the mindset that voidrays are a cheesy unit. And to a certain extent it is true. Going one base voidray clearly wont get them out quick enough with enough defenses for other types of attacks. However, getting about 7 voidrays fully charged will mow through any of the zerg units really fricking fast. There are five units that can shoot up for zerg. -The queen, which most often wont be massed or have the ability to kill off tons of voidrays. -The hydralisk, which although very strong is pretty immobile especially off of creep. -The mutalisk, which although mobile, is pretty weak unless outnumbering the voidrays ( guessing 2:1 ) -The corruptor, great versus carriers and collosi. But just dont make them against voidrays. -The infested terran. This one can be debated to be the best versus naked voidrays. With a fungal and a couple of IT's, they kill the units pretty darn fast. Costing only energy and enjoying from the attack upgrades. But in a lategame army consisting of collosi and voidrays, this choice has to be the least viable. This brings us to the conclusion that voidray collosi or voidray carrier is the ultimate zerg killing army. But because of the hard transitioning, cannot be labeled as 'the forbidden word'. In the same way that broodlord/ultralisk/infestor cannot be labeled as 'the forbidden word'. I thank Plexa for this insight in the match up . | ||
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