EPT[G] PvZ Overview - Page 4
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
snotboogie
Australia3550 Posts
| ||
|
Wishmaster
Malta73 Posts
A DT does 60(!) dmg per 1 hit fully upgraded? Thats insane, its the strongest unit in the game, u just have to protect it as good as possible. I also do not think, that speed voids will be a part of a lategame composition, since there is a timing window until u get like 6 where you miss all the other stuff u could have gotten. I mostly have 1 robo immos + gateway units and templar. Once i hit 150 supply i add a seconds robo for mass immos with psi. I also like mass stalkers at lategame since theydont get rolled by ultras anymore through the mass immortal, they counter blords and mutalisk as long as you have enough storms. For me is adding 8-10 DT´s/a Warpprism to this mix worth more than 6-7 voids... should be about the same cost. | ||
|
vohne
Philippines197 Posts
| ||
|
emperorchampion
Canada9496 Posts
| ||
|
yarkO
Canada810 Posts
I have a map-specific question for the people of this thread: PvZ on Xel'Naga Caverns, I'm having a really hard time here. I don't feel safe going 15nex but I can't seem to mount any pressure instead. At ~1700 diamond (means nothing), I'm facing a lot of different builds, from Banelings to fast-pool Roach rushes. When they hatch first, I'm able to force some lings with Zealot + Stalker and I can usually save them. I guess vs Hatch first I don't have much of a problem, it's any Pool first opening, whether standard (13/14) or early (8-10). I've attached a replay with sort of what I'm talking about. I make a lot of mistakes for sure but I would appreciate any insight/criticism! ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-164714.jpg) | ||
|
tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
A note on most P's understanding of PvZ late game: I wouldn't say it is easy so much as it is frequent that in PvZ the matchup is won due to the many timing windows that are able to be exploited, from early game to tech transitions, to expansion timings and the like. I think this is the reason that PvZ late game is unfamiliar to many P players, while Zs most likely have more experience with the late game in their encounters with Terrans. I have a lot of experience with IST, going back to beta, and feel that both in PvZ and PvT that templar are the better option than colossus (opinion). To the curious players out there who want to explore IST, that in my experience, hydra/roach can be effectively dealt with Zeal/Stalker/Templar, but it is much more situational and this composition is not recommended. The hard counter to Templar, which is the unit that this composition is based on, is burrowing roach. It is next to impossible to handle burrowed roach with Templar, and that is why in many of my games that go late, I feel that Templar prompt a roach-heavy reaction which in turn allows me to switch to Void Ray, which is one thing that Plexa mentioned. This is because if you imagine this point in the game, where you have reached a void ray/x army vs mostly roach, that any attempt to pump out a cycle of hydra will be met by a quick round of templar, which come out favorably in a fight between these two unit compositions. Hydra are great units but when the Protoss player is able, through good macro, to get out a sizeable amount of void rays in a small amount of time into what is already a good army composition with templar, that no Zerg reaction will suffice. This has been especially true since the void ray BUFF that occurred in the recent patch, where void rays are now slightly more powerful not as building smashers but as meaty units that can more effectively be combined with a gateway army. Getting speed, as Plexa says, is just SO useful for VRs that even hydra are not really a threat anymore because of air mobility and the newfound speed. | ||
|
PriorityOne
4 Posts
On November 11 2010 02:32 Markwerf wrote: One thing i disagree about bigtime in the early game is your general use of hallucination for scouting. I used to use it alot but rarely ever do so anymore, the cost of the tech and it's use is simply too high for what you get imo. It's a 110 sec, 100m 100g tech that also depletes lot's of energy from your sentries. Further more it's good for scouting but not nearly as good as a real phoenix and usually a bit worse then a observer as well because the hallucinated phoenix lasts relatively short. Also hallucination gets quite crap in the lategame as often you won't have sentries with enough energy to use it anymore. Finally the combat use of hallucination is practually zero, there is almost no situation where you would want to use hallucination instead of forcefields. Hallucination is cheaper and comes out faster than Robo/Observer or Stargate/Phoenix at the cost of slowing your Warp Gate research. The Phoenix easily lives long enough to take a nice trip around most maps and give us a good picture of Zerg's base. If we see Zerg massing for a big attack, we've committed fewer minerals/gas to scouting it so we're in a better position to fend it off. As for the combat use of Hallucination, a single hallucinated colossus is easily worth it. Since most Zergs will focus fire it as soon as possible, it's an almost guaranteed +175 HP buffer for my army. Immortal is probably more cost effective, but Colossus triggers everyone's "OMG MUST KILL" instinct. Granted an overseer will hurt this strategy, but as long as you don't expose a dark shrine Zerg usually won't build that many overseers. | ||
|
iSTime
1579 Posts
From the time zerg throws down their first extractor, it takes 3:15 to finish extractor/mine 100/upgrade speed. Also, from the time the pool starts, you have 2:55 before lings will come out from the 1st larva inject, and 3:40 till the next one (these might be a little off since I'm in my office and not my apartment where I have the larva inject timings written down). Anyway, sometimes it's not important to run away before speed if, for example, your opponent went 13 gas/13 pool and you have 1 zealot/3 stalkers or something. You will be perfectly fine until the speedlings from the 2nd larva inject are out. | ||
|
tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
On November 11 2010 02:32 Markwerf wrote: As for the combat use of Hallucination, a single hallucinated colossus is easily worth it. Since most Zergs will focus fire it as soon as possible, it's an almost guaranteed +175 HP buffer for my army. Immortal is probably more cost effective, but Colossus triggers everyone's "OMG MUST KILL" instinct. Granted an overseer will hurt this strategy, but as long as you don't expose a dark shrine Zerg usually won't build that many overseers. Combat use of Hallucination is sometimes effective, but it really depends on your opponent. A lot of players, depending on where you are in the ladder, are just bad in general and are willing to sacrifice their army instead of play smart and pull back. These bad players, interestingly enough, blunder through hallucinations that should have made them turn back, and end up in a favorable position despite going into the fight in what seems like a bad position. It's funny how that works. Here is a replay of hallucination in PvP that won the game, but only because of the reaction it caused in my opponent. Just forward to the end where I confront him at his base. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/96678-1v1-protoss-metalopolis This example shows the risky nature of including hallucinations in your army for trickery. I do recommend them as meat shields though, especially against hydra | ||
|
ribboo
Sweden1842 Posts
On November 11 2010 03:43 yarkO wrote: Hey this thread seems like where I need to be! Thanks for another great write-up Plexa =) I have a map-specific question for the people of this thread: PvZ on Xel'Naga Caverns, I'm having a really hard time here. I don't feel safe going 15nex but I can't seem to mount any pressure instead. At ~1700 diamond (means nothing), I'm facing a lot of different builds, from Banelings to fast-pool Roach rushes. When they hatch first, I'm able to force some lings with Zealot + Stalker and I can usually save them. I guess vs Hatch first I don't have much of a problem, it's any Pool first opening, whether standard (13/14) or early (8-10). I've attached a replay with sort of what I'm talking about. I make a lot of mistakes for sure but I would appreciate any insight/criticism! You had 2 gateways way too long. Should've at least gone for a 2 gate/robo or 3 gate. Don't bother with a forge that early, unless you're building cannons. Upgrades are great, but fending off the attack should've been first prio. A gateway would've helped you more than the forge. You had the robo-bay, you knew he was going mass roach, yet you didn't make one single immortal? Immortals are extremely good against roaches. Also, one void raid would pretty much ment GG. Though, that's quite risky, so I wouldn't have gone down that road ;D | ||
|
kcdc
United States2311 Posts
I disagree that sentry expand allows no pressure. If I'm going to gateway expand into 3-5 gate pressure, I want to have 5-6 sentries in my composition to allow me to isolate and pick off units, and still have forcefields leftover to retreat if necessary. You might as well get the sentries first because it allows an earlier expansion and more time to save energy. IMO, you can get pretty decent pressure with 3-gate sentry expand, add 2 more gates and a few stalkers, push out to secure a forward pylon, and adding just enough meaty right before you attack. | ||
|
danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
While it seems that Mutalisks can just move out of the Storm and avoid most of the damage, in practice this is not the case. Nooo... I smile every time a toss says templar are worthless against mutas. Don't ruin it for everyone.  | ||
|
AirbladeOrange
United States2574 Posts
| ||
|
Proto_Protoss
United States495 Posts
| ||
|
Shadrak
United States490 Posts
(1600 P) | ||
|
Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
| ||
|
Shadrak
United States490 Posts
On November 11 2010 05:56 Dfgj wrote: The problem with using chargelots is that having melee units negates a lot of the point of Forcefields since you can't abuse the positioning as effectively. For that reason, stalkers as a core unit are more viable, despite their cost-ineffectiveness in the mid/late game. Well, forcefield placement is probably my weakest point with toss at the moment. I guess that's why I've shyed away from CSS type builds, but probably also why I'm around a 1/3 win rate vz Zerg.  From the picks that Plexa posted, it looked like he had 0 zealots out. Literally nothing but stalker/collosus/sentry. I never would have thought that was in any way viable because of the crap DPS stalkers/sentries do but I suppose collosus makes up for that? Stalkers do have high HP and can blink back so I guess they are the real tanks in this setup? | ||
|
LazyMacro
976 Posts
Is it just better to scout for "free" and simply tech properly from the information you gain than to blindly robo and find you don't need it? | ||
|
Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
On November 11 2010 06:46 LazyMacro wrote: I will probably half answer my own question here, but why hallucination scouting over robo and obs? Is it just better to scout for "free" and simply tech properly from the information you gain than to blindly robo and find you don't need it? Hallu is useful with a number of builds because if you're expanding after core, you have scouting information on Zerg's tech path at the point your 2-base econ is kicking in. This means you can go 6gate timing / 2star / 2robo reactively to zerg making a tech choice, rather than being 100% blind. Observers just come out substantially later and the last thing you want to do is run a timing attack into the maw of a build that isn't actually weak at that timing. Or go robo-heavy vs mutas. @Shadrak: The reason you don't make zeals is because the Protoss army generally cannot fight the Zerg army in the open. You're going to rely on forcefields limiting the amount of Zerg that can attack your SSC ball, while the entire ranged Protoss mass can fire back, thus putting you at advantageous situations. Having zealots defeats the purpose of this, as units that were trapped out of range by forcefields can still shoot at the zealots, thus increasing the amount of damage your army is taking. Stalkers are basically your tanks because they're the standard ranged units. Sadly, they're also godawful units, but that's what you've got - and what you pretty much need to transition out of as Plexa brings up. | ||
|
Buddhalol
Canada109 Posts
| ||
| ||
