|
if you're making carriers and the zerg catches wind, you can be damn sure that some corruptors are gonna start peaking their heads out of the lair to help out the swarm...
Anyways, archons have always been quite powerful against zerg. Nothing is really good at killing it since its not armored or light or anything, and its damage is huge.
It's still best to just spam your storms and then morph them I believe. If you try to protect them afterwards, you will eventually get a large mass of them and it will be very hard to stop.
Mutas are cost effective against lone archons if you have lots of mutas, but not if the muta count is low...
Also, many players aren't used to seeing archons used so much, and may not think to magic box the mutas to spread them, letting the aoe destroy them.
|
On October 21 2010 18:24 Slayer91 wrote:
It doesn't matter if you a-move roaches and archons kill them. Roaches with speed move faster and you can't afford much else than zealots with archons. Roaches destroy both zealots and archons. If its muta ling you're having trouble with, sure they're great. Roaches with speed and burrow however crush all gateway units and templar tech, so you just need immortals or a lot of colossus.
I think, in this case, Slayer91 is correct; the ability of roaches to kite Archons gives them a decided advantage, and neither Zealots nor Archons are that fantastic against them. Stalkers, although not as good as Immortals, seem to do fairly well against them, especially with Blink - and Blink stalkers also do fairly well against the Mutalisk part of the strategy.
Its not that it cannot be used in this particular situation - it's just that there are far more efficient strategies for dealing with this particular problem. If the person is only using Roaches to try and transition into Muta/Ling, this would be what I would attempt; it just seems like doing the standard Robo build is more efficient in more cases than this is.
|
On October 21 2010 13:21 DuneBug wrote:
I have never understood why protoss have not been getting void rays against heavy roach play. Void rays negate any aggression until the zerg has hydras or mutas. Spire takes forever to build, and with a stargate you're all set to build phoenix to deal with them anyway.
This. I feel like I'm viewing an alien world in which large amounts of tech are necessary to counter Roaches and Mutalisks...
I expect to see more Protoss opening with 1 Void Ray and 1 Phoenix in the future. (150/150 + 250/125 + 150/100 = 550/375.) It seems like the cleanest, safest way to scout the map and defend early pressure... and if Zerg is greedy/careless, you can harass his stuff. Further, you can Chronoboost Phoenixes if the Zerg invests heavily in mutalisks.
Archons, Templar, Colossi, and Ground Weapons Upgrades are great, but not until you have two gas + aren't playing blind.
|
how big is archon splash in sc2? how much is the splash damage??i havent build archon for years already lol..
|
Carriers vs mutas would work sure. Problem is that corrupters hard counter them and are very easy to get if you have mutas. The other problem is that carriers take AGES AND AGES to make, are extremely slow, and during the whole process you will be extremely vulnerable. Hydras also counter carriers pretty well. Well microed phoenix absolutely destroy mutas, honestly i dont really view mutas as problem unless i fail to scout and then suddenly i see 30 of them.
|
I think I will try this, I am really curious about archon effectiveness against roaches. But if I try this I must also find a way to get a mothership too, at least in late game  . That archon + vortex combo while very funny and interesting seems also very possible to pull off. The biggest problem is actually having a mothership + archons xD.
|
This is all very nice and well how ever, 6 ht's would fucking DEMOLISH 10 roaches even faster than archons......
6 DT's would rape 10 roaches even faster than that.
its not a question of which unit beats which, its a question of having the best defense against the roaches so early in the game.
meaning it would be almost IMPOSSIBRUUUU to get 6 of either unit or 3 archons before the inevitable 5 roach speed push comes.
i think you need to rethink your strategy
|
I've used chargelot/archon for a long time against zerg.
Check wayyyy back in my post history
You open with archon while he's got roaches. he likely transitions to hydra, during this period you pick up storm. Then you just keep recycling those templar into archons. Archon shield regen is friggin OP... And the splash is better than you think 
Also, he is a retard if he switches to ling/muta as archons + zealots + FF laugh at infinite numbers of lings, and archon + gs + sentry will laugh at muta.
|
On October 21 2010 19:12 justiceknight wrote:
how big is archon splash in sc2? how much is the splash damage??i havent build archon for years already lol..
as big as the archon, and 50% damage according to the editor.
|
Archons are super cost inefficient because they are designed to be. They are for recycling HT that are out of energy or DT's that are useless because of detection.
|
If you are looking for a counter to the roach -> muta / ling transition, might I suggest something?
Stalkers are good against roaches, zealots are good against roaches (when zealots can attack them, of course). Why not get 1 zealot, ~2 stalkers and sentry to forcefield and hold off ramp, while chrono-ing out a void ray from stargate? Then you can phoenix when he muta's and just gateway for the lings. I'm not too sure on the timings, 7RR will come at 25~30 supply on a short map. Maybe even forge + cannon at ramp, since void rays will come out a bit late, to help hold the roaches off? The cannons will be useful in delaying the mutas wreck your mineral line later in the game anyway, and you can get quick attack upgrades for the zealots to tear through the lings. Teching to HTs takes way too long and is gas heavy.
TL;DR - Cannon at ramp, handful of gateway to hold off roach rush, void ray asap, to force tech switch, phoenix when he goes muta, attack upgrades for lings.
Edit: I read only 2 pages, I see Void ray -> Phoenix has already been suggested.
|
On October 21 2010 10:59 justinsroy wrote:
Shots to kill a roach with archons - 4
Shots to kill a archon with roaches - 21
^All unupgraded.
I don't know if it's because nobody noticed yet or people just don't care, but your numbers are wrong.
360/16 = 22.5
Since we're always rounding up when dealing with this sort of thing
Roaches take 23 shots to kill an archon.
145/34 = 4.26
Meaning Archons take 5 shots to kill roaches.
I figured you might want to edit your numbers to match reality.
Now as far as the strategy goes, your tests showed it was rougly 3 archons to 9 roaches.
That's 150/900 to 675/225 in resources, meaning in general terms that you use 4 times as much gas as him at what we can call the critical mass, when the two armies are matched. This means that for it to be effective you must use at least 4 times as much gas as him for straight Archon vs Roach. With stalker support it will probably tilt a lot in your favour, but keep in mind that he has a lot more freedom with his gas than you. I think this build will severely limit your ability to get upgrades compared to your opponent, maybe leaving you behind as you enter the mid-game.
It comes back to what some people have mentioned earlier, Archons are a way of recycling your templar.
Oftentimes I make archons when my templar run out of energy in an engagement I've committed to or are about to die.
Especially vs roaches I find immortals more efficient. It's 100 more minerals, 200 less gas, 60 less hp/shield pool (but hardened shields) and a lot more damage for much cheaper tech and still great transitioning possibilities
|
Archons are a great tanking unit, and great for taking out stacked or clumped bio. nothing more than, as was said earlier, a backup unit. Really the best counter for roaches is the same as it has always been. a good mix of gateway units. immortals if you are going robo, but mostly gateway units deal nicely. If you want to play around with unit mixes, DTs mixed in with your army wil do very well against roaches. mix in some phoenix, and you have a strong mix against mutas. add charge and HT, subtract stalkers, and you have a strong unit mix vs anything the zerg throws at you.
|
If you are talking about roach build, I am not sure if you can actually morph out an Archon before 8 roaches in early game. In mid/ late game this could work but in early game I doubt.
|
THis entire thread contradicts itself.
If anything the numbers posted show that roaches counter archons and not the other way around. 3 roaches per archon to beat them is a good deal for zerg... 225/75 is worth a lot less then 100/300. I mean what do you rather have, 125 minerals or 225 gas???? I'd say 1 archon costs the same as about 6 roaches which beat up that archon easily.
Archons are only good vs straight up muta/ling really because against those units the splash is actually good. Best way to counter muta/ling is just stalker/zealot/phoenix focussing on attack upgrades for your zealots (to counter those lings), but archons can be a very good addition to such a army. Mostly they are just a outlet for empty HT though, only reason to immediately forge them into archon is to do some timing attack agianst a muta/ling player where you don't want to wait for storm.
|
Thank you uncle ownage for the numbers correction, i threw this post past the time im usually awake and i probably forgot rounding or something. Edit'd, thank you.
Got a PM recently from an un-named source:
"provide replays with your post, i find it retarded that you would imagine you could get 3 archons or 6 of either templar before the 5speed roach push."
This build is NOT attempting to counter the 5-7RR pushes. I am very very aware that they will come ~30ish or so food, i know that. With 1 sentry/stalker/zealots you can hold off the initial pushes with a simple 2-3 gate and decent micro.
This is meant for slightly later (When there about to transition into muta or hydras but still have 10-20 roaches depending on how much you pressure). I'm working on a way to hold off the last of their roaches without being too invested for when they transition. If they choose to go hydra/roach, then by all means robo and get immortal/colossi, but the main problem is if they see immortal's and go mutas, then you have a hunk of metal that unless you find a way to flip it onto its back then its almost useless until you wanna break down some spinecrawlers.
Thank you for the input everyone. Recently have been playing around with a timing for 1 VR, 1-2 phoenix opening which would be a 1 gate, stargate, then add more gates after. (pick up queens because 1:1 VR's now do not kill queens if im not mistaken) which would also hold off the roaches and maybe make them shy away from mutalisks.
|
^^
Then Archons are not viable for early game like you mentioned
|
roaches are sooo good nowadays. protoss has a really hard time dealing with them early game. archons are not exactly an answer for early game, more of a endgame/metagame tactic. but it is a good option for then.
|
Maybe proper micro of archon (saving them with ~~20 shields left) can allow you to have a very powerful pushing advantage?
Zealots regain 50 shields at most, making a properly "rescued" Zealot capable of fighting/tanking 33% compared to a fresh.
Stalkers regain 80 shields at most, making a properly "rescued" Stalker capable of fighting/tanking ~40% compared to a fresh
Archon regain up to 350 shield, making a properly "rescued" Archon capable of fighting/tanking at 99% capacity at the next encounter!
We need a Pro-toss version of BoxeR, a super Warp-Drop harass king or something. Imagine, a near-impossible to kill army.
Suggestion for a build : Mixing Warp Prism into Archon consisted army, using Archon as a tank and Prism to rescue critically injured Archon. Protoss have no mode of healing, however, Shield is awesome, it cost no energy to heal (Medivacs/Queen Transfuse) and it's capable of regenerating all the way till it's end. Have separated armor component (come on, upgrading "armor" for BOTH ground and air is cool), quick regen (Archon regain full shield from 0-350 in 175 seconds, that's 3 Transfusion [150 energy] or 120 seconds worth of healing from medivacs, at absolutely no cost except time).
Keeping a few at home can prevent Muta harass due to imba regeration capacity.
TL;DR - Archons are underused due to their design as only an additional unit, however, they have very good potential. Archon has very powerful potential, coz they are yet to be used to it's fullest.
|
For the ones suggesting going for a fast stargate build, it may kill off the roaches, but not before they do some good damage. And whenever I see stargate and 3/4 gateways, I just go hydra with upgrades. Collossus will be out too late to really counter hydras before you can get a spire for corruptors, and its back to a normal game from there.
Extra points if you were going spire, they scout it, and you just make hydras anyway while they waste money on 4 phoenix delaying the colossus.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
