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On October 22 2010 11:21 justinsroy wrote:
Thank you for the input everyone. Recently have been playing around with a timing for 1 VR, 1-2 phoenix opening which would be a 1 gate, stargate, then add more gates after. (pick up queens because 1:1 VR's now do not kill queens if im not mistaken) which would also hold off the roaches and maybe make them shy away from mutalisks.
Yay! I hope it works for you.
On October 22 2010 12:48 P00RKID wrote:
For the ones suggesting going for a fast stargate build, it may kill off the roaches, but not before they do some good damage. And whenever I see stargate and 3/4 gateways, I just go hydra with upgrades. Collossus will be out too late to really counter hydras before you can get a spire for corruptors, and its back to a normal game from there.
Extra points if you were going spire, they scout it, and you just make hydras anyway while they waste money on 4 phoenix delaying the colossus.
3-4 gateways + Stargate is a one-base all-in. 1 Gate 1 Stargate is an economic build.
And there's nothing wrong with getting 4 Phoenix. They're very strong early on (queen-killing, overlord-killing, and before hydras mass up, hydra-killing) and if you get them later in the game, they can still snipe drones to pay for themselves. (Also, so much reconnaissance.) You're not suddenly screwed if Zerg fakes you into building 4 Phoenix to counter mutalisks.
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Tried this vs a buddy of mine, i went FE into fast archons, he went 2 base with another hatch in base roach. All he did was pump roaches, i had nine warpgates and no money, yet i didnt stand a chance. Problem is he just kites everything and if youre getting archons, youre not getting alot of sentries. I usually died around the 11-12min mark, roaches are just insanely good now and toss seems to have no real reply to them. The games i went 2 gate robo into expand vs him i did great with early pressure(6-7 zealots 2 sentries and 2 immortals) and did a fair bit of dmg to his expo while i expanded.
After that however he just went into pump roach mode, and i simply cannot keep up. Whenever i do keep up, he just swaps to mutas, even if im prepared for it it cripples me alot and i dont get enough stalkers in time to engage him head on. Then he just expands all over the map while im stuck in my base and yeah u know how it goes.
Im struggling alot vs zerg this patch, mainly due to the fact that they can switch their army every larvae cycle. Mass roach ok immortals, immortals, stalkers, bam hes now mass ling with some roaches, immortals are now useless and so on. Havent really managed to do anything against it.
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So 10 roaches comes out just barely ahead against 3 archons. The roaches cost 750/250 while the archons cost 300/900. That is not an even trade AT ALL. The roaches cost overall less and if you factor in that gas is worth way more than minerals the archons are terrible against roaches. This is even ignoring the rediculous amount of tech you need for archons compared to a T1 150 mineral building.
Archons are meant for to be used when HTst are out of energy. That's when they become a little more cost effective. Storming some roaches is going to do more damage than using just archons.
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Looking at the replay army values were pretty much the same, with me ahead slightly in gas, i had better income and 10 more probes. Food count roughly the same, and the fights werent even close. Add to that, that i cant even keep up in production since roaches are so damn cheap, it becomes... frustrating to say the least.
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I honestly thing the answer to roaches is a fast stargate with either 2 phoenix or void, even if you loose your units you force Z to make hydra or muta immediately. Ive been trying to go with a robo bay to start vs zerg and it just doesnt make any sense.
I think im going to go 12 gate, 14 / 15 forge from here on out and expand with cannons and a stargate...
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Gah.
Goddamn roaches. haven't been able to win any games where my opponent goes mass roach because they're just so goddamn CHEAP to make and do way more damage for cost.
Voids used to work before they got nerfed, and immortals take forever to make.
I mean, maybe just give archons a better splash? or maybe more range. Right now, they're slow as heck and useless on defense. On offense, they're okay, but....
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It would probably do ok against the mutas-ling but I'd be very concerned about dieing to roaches. If you're mainly relying on zealots, archons, and cannons, the zerg can roach micro for as long as it takes to wear you down while continuing to build up roach numbers.
I think that would only really work if the zerg is on offense, however. If you could be pressuing the zerg with those zealots and archons that could cause them more trouble since they can only back up so far. Archons do seem fairly effective on offense.
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On October 23 2010 01:25 tetramaster wrote:
Gah.
Goddamn roaches. haven't been able to win any games where my opponent goes mass roach because they're just so goddamn CHEAP to make and do way more damage for cost.
Voids used to work before they got nerfed, and immortals take forever to make.
I mean, maybe just give archons a better splash? or maybe more range. Right now, they're slow as heck and useless on defense. On offense, they're okay, but....
I feel the same way, even if you handle them well zerg can tech swap so fast and youre stuck with a bunch of useless immortals. I think for archons they need to be slightly faster and maybe .5 longer range, that would make them usefull again.
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Did the funday monday with archons/tanks/viking... archons suck vs everything for cost lol.
about some of the stargate discussion. Anyone see those two koreans whose name I cant pronounce on scrap station the other day? The toss 1 based 3 gates and 1 stargate, pumped 4 phoenix for OL sniping then got a mothership off one base and pushed. Mothership with a huge gateway army under it is SCARY
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Here is the build for expand / forge at 15. I have had success hold off roach rushes with this. You need at least 3 per base and you need to sim city your base while you do it to keep the roaches as close as you can.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=159671
I've only lost once to zerg doing the build since the new patch. As noted in the update, don't drop your first cannons in your min line bc the roach will be out of range.
I am still playing with a 12 gate 14 forge to air to see if its viabale.
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Focusing all of today to test some new builds vs roach openings:
Trying the 15 nexus/forge, dropping 1 super early cannon and then gateway, then second cannon soon after. If my opponent doesnt have OL over his FE i drop a cannon behind that just to be a pest.
Gonna attempt 2 diff transitions, archon/chargelot like replays, and a double stargate phoenix. My last game i did 2 stargate, right as the opponent saw phoenix he just gg'd out (He was going for super fast hive for whatever reason).
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since we are on the archon topic - how do they perform against hydras. Usually I see hydra/roach and not straight up mass roach.
Btw, I've only really made a point of trying to use more archons once and it was against zergling heavy army. Zealots and archons ripped through like 3 waves of lings with minimal losses.
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If you scout mass roaches, make sure you have at least 3 sentries ready. Good FF micro + gateway units is still very strong against roaches especially if they're trying to go up a ramp.
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HT's are the reason Archons ever see the light of day in my army. The AE against a mass of zerg army is indispensable if you aren't pursuing Colossus. The roaches aren't going to die en mass to the psistorm, to be sure. Yet, the damage across many roaches weakens them to make them die faster to your gateway army, or gateway army + immortals. If they have hydra support as is typical, the HT's really shine.
After your storm the army, merge the HT's with spent energy into Archons and you have an excellent tanking unit at the front doing its own meager splash. Low range and high kitability limits its use to a support role. If you can trap the zerg army into defending a base and the Archon gets into range, they really shine.
Very clear that Archons do well against Ultra/Ling armies lategame.
HT's & Archons are very shaky against Muta/Ling. The muta's mobility in lategame make it very hard to leave your base as it snipes key structures, mineral lines, scouting pylons, etc. Protoss has a small timing window before Muta numbers grow large to attack the base and force them onto the defense, where they are less effective. Archons' speed on the ground and the ability of Mutas to keep dodging psistorms makes the ground-based defense of muta/ling ineffective.
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Roaches comes knocking at the 6 minute mark, can templar tech with any support really be made? While I'm sure midgame this might be an option, I cannot imagine deciding to go templar tech when so many roaches are coming, robotics seems like a better choice early.
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I dont know about colossus archon to stop mass roach. And when I say I don't know, what I mean to say is that's a terrible idea. There's a bit of sense to the rest of it, but Immortals were born to kill mass roach.
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On October 23 2010 01:25 tetramaster wrote:
Gah.
Goddamn roaches. haven't been able to win any games where my opponent goes mass roach because they're just so goddamn CHEAP to make and do way more damage for cost.
Voids used to work before they got nerfed, and immortals take forever to make.
I mean, maybe just give archons a better splash? or maybe more range. Right now, they're slow as heck and useless on defense. On offense, they're okay, but....
Void rays kill roaches quicker now than they did before. Old void rays don't start beating out new void rays in damage until 245 + damage has been done. If you opponent is letting you hit his roaches for that long unpunished, you win in either scenario.
There has not been near enough mention of immortals in this thread. Do they take too long to make. Yes, but if you are going against mass roaches, you should have known this was coming for quite some time.
Oh NO! He added zerglings to his mix you say? +1 zealots hold zerglings down by the throat and mercilessly destroy them. If your opponent masses 1 type of unit, build counterunits. If he starts making units to counter your counterunits. BUILD COUNTERUNITS
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On October 21 2010 19:12 justiceknight wrote:
how big is archon splash in sc2? how much is the splash damage??i havent build archon for years already lol..
100% damage in a radius of 0.25
50% in a radius of 0.5
25% in a radius of 1
For comparison tank splash is
100% in a radius of 0.48
50% in a radius of 0.78
25% in a radius of 1.25
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EPT
