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On October 23 2010 04:48 Koronin wrote:
Roaches comes knocking at the 6 minute mark, can templar tech with any support really be made? While I'm sure midgame this might be an option, I cannot imagine deciding to go templar tech when so many roaches are coming, robotics seems like a better choice early.
Do you read? Like really, i dont wanna be an asshole, but ive adressed this like 100 times as well as others in this thread.
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Well yeah...
My problem is I'm getting rolled over by roaches of late 
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instead of pounding your head and crunching numbers with dps numbers, you should see if you can find a timing push in between the zergs transition from roaches to mutas. There are alot out there, and you seem smart enough to find them
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I don't really see archons being a great counter to roaches. Archons counter almost everything else zerg has BUT roaches, I love to use archons (and that 3gate arch/zealot push) but I usually get some immortals from my inevitable robo bay because of the roaches.
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I just got roflstomped last night by this build.
I put SOME early pressure, but since he got an expo, i grabbed two.
He built up, so I dropped on main, destroyed SOME, but he cleaned it up.
As I was remaking, he was already starting to move out and kill one of my expos. I held this off a couple of times, mainly with roaches, but at that point he just had storm, would back up, and make them archons. Once he had a few archons, zealots to wall, and a few stalkers, it was GG no sweat.
I couldn't figure out how to counter!!!
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I'd like to see more builds based around archons, it'd be great if you could make use of the sub-units first though.
For example, storm drops are perfect because you can normally use up energy without engaging in a battle. Current competitive play archons are only used after storms in midbattle, which normally makes them ineffective.
Check out the competitive usage part... it's a fairly good writeup of their strengths.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Archon
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I still don't see use for the archon except as usage for empty templars.
Archons simply cost too much for what they do.
Archons are not that bad a unit but to create it as such it simply costs alot compared to other units you could be getting.
You want to counter muta/ling? Archons look nice, but for 300 gas i'd rather be getting some more phoenixes and stalkers. A good muta/ling player will simply not clump the muta's and focus the archons first.
Against hydra/roach? Hydra's and roaches both stomp archons, their size is just to big to really be effected by splash alot and they are just way more cost effective
Against ultra/ling? Not bad here but you are generally better off keeping the templar for storm first and then transforming.
Against terran archons are simply not good enough either, you want to use your templar for storm there not create archons which lose big chunks of shield against EMP.
Against protoss templar are basically a no-go along with archons.
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Archons are more than a viable unit in PvZ, especially if you had good mineral investment, such as FE + forge/zealots, and once you get +1, archons melt through zerg. I've been doing this for awhile now, starting with team games, then moving on to custom 1v1s, and I can vouch that this works out really well. But it's good that you noted that you needed to poke around,making sure the zerg doesn't get an eco going/a 3rd much earlier than you get your 3rd. Roach range will always be a problem, and since archons are such a gas heavy unit, it's quite natural to have alot of zealots, so it's very important to get charge for lots as well. But if anything fast archons aren't a 1 base thing to do.
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There is always something better you can get then straight up archons though, thats why they aren't competetive as a direct unit to make. If you have problems with lings you are better off just getting attack upgrades for your zealots or templar with storm.
If you have problems with muta's you are better off making stalkers and phoenix. If you are having problems with marines and marauders, you are are better off making templar with storm or colossi... I can't see a situation where i need the archon as a unit except in some rare cornercases where you have a gas loadup and need to spend it quick (ie. you cant for some reason wait for storm).
Against most units like roaches the splash area is just to small so it's just a overcosted thing against them.
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BronzeLeagueDude here. Even if you do the forge wall at natural and expand at 14 I don't see this working. Why? Well the zerg is going to see your fast expand, and problebly cue up a back door nydus right before you can warp in the first ht at this point you sure as hell don't have amulet and storm yet the mutas can effectively harass, and if your stalkers get hit by fungus those mutas can out run any archon. If the mutas fail he's going to assume chargelot ht and maybe mix in a couple investigators with the ling/roach. HT and archon are both big targets for the parasite, plus theres the problem with the burrow right before a unit dies with zerg against no detection.
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If the Zerg goes heavy roach he will die to a 2gate robo push at 8 mins.
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EPT
