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Punic
United States152 Posts
spine crawlers should be able to hold the ramp choke at your main as well as your third (third's being the expansions at the 8(?) and 2(?) positions (the ones to the far right and left) this would allow you to build an economy that could be stronger than the 15 nexus and get fast mutas for map control | ||
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Pfeff
United States270 Posts
On October 19 2010 01:04 Gont wrote: u can graviton ultras? i was pretty sure it isnt possible until now I meant Queens, not ultras. My bad. Usually once I'm to Ultras I bring a couple Queens to heal since creep is everywhere from overlords and tumors. Thanks for pointing out my mistake. I edited my other post to avoid confusion. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On October 19 2010 01:28 Punic wrote: if you roll zerg why dont you take an early hatch (14?) and then take an early third. maybe skip zergling speed with your first 100 gas and go straight for lair tech into spire spine crawlers should be able to hold the ramp choke at your main as well as your third (third's being the expansions at the 8(?) and 2(?) positions (the ones to the far right and left) this would allow you to build an economy that could be stronger than the 15 nexus and get fast mutas for map control The problem is basin has no viable 3rds you can defend without an army already. | ||
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Gimpb
293 Posts
- You can block the nexus with your scout during the time where they'd drop it and then check their base. If you saw a forge on your way in, ya might as well just hang out in blocking position for a while and then scout their main again (while scouting your base for any shenanigans, of course) - It seems to take me 3 hatches (third hatch could be in main if necessary) and 2 queens to win the economic war against an FE. Otherwise I'll be behind if I don't deal damage. Anything short of that isn't enough larve. Obviously you have to drone hard initially to support it, but you do have a window to do that. On this particular map I'm thinking expanding to the side base would be nice because if he attacks it you come in from behind on defense and he has no retreat option. So to attack that he's effectively putting his army in a do or die position. Worst case scenario you lose the expansion but it gave you the larve you needed to keep pace with him early and you have to find a way to retake your expo. Best case scenario, you wipe out his army and he has a major problem. If both sides lose the majority of their armies, that's alright for you as well. I'm certainly willing to try out some options with someone later today. NA server code 330 | ||
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Pfeff
United States270 Posts
On October 19 2010 01:16 XiGua wrote: Ultras seem fine, but the real question is - how to stop the phoenix harrass and still have a standard build that won't delay anything before the push? Also, the phoenix will scout for the Protoss and if he ever sees Ultralisk caverns, Immortals ftw. The pros with this build is that you can almost adapt Zerg-style with your buildings since you have soooo much money. I wouldn't worry too much about a phoenix killing a few overlords while I am ripping apart everything you have with ultras/queen or two for healing and a critical mass of zerglings to mop up whatever the ultras can't kill. Got immortals for my ultras? I got zerglings for days, and by the time I'm at ultras, they are severely upgraded and that much more bad ass and it doesn't hurt that those same upgrades affect ultras. Besides, I usually make a few extra overlords to shit creep anyway. 100 minerals for a section of creep highway is pretty badass, plus they allow you spread tumors faster if you move the overlord and shit creep at the max distance of the tumor (I'll just make 50 overlords at once if I need to rebuild and keep them in my base) | ||
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
10 pool 12 overlord queen + 4 sets of lings, and expo-hatch at 18 (before the overlord,) and use first 25 of queen's energy on a creeptumor. But against 15 nexus you can just pump lings because you'll rape him. | ||
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
On October 19 2010 00:26 TeWy wrote: You're underestimating the Zerg macro mechanics if you think that massing 7-10 roachs early game is an all-in. Are you serious? Making 7-10 roaches is the equivalent of a zealot coming up to your base and killing 7-10 drones, on top of the minerals and gas you spent. Making 4 cannons and chronoing out a few stalkers to hold off the roaches definitely doesn't hurt toss' economy as much as losing 7-10 workers. Zerg's macro is amazing but not to the point where you can throw away 10 workers in exchange for making the other guy build a few cannons. | ||
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Pfeff
United States270 Posts
On October 19 2010 01:40 iamke55 wrote: Are you serious? Making 7-10 roaches is the equivalent of a zealot coming up to your base and killing 7-10 drones, on top of the minerals and gas you spent. Making 4 cannons and chronoing out a few stalkers to hold off the roaches definitely doesn't hurt toss' economy as much as losing 7-10 workers. Zerg's macro is amazing but not to the point where you can throw away 10 workers in exchange for making the other guy build a few cannons. I disagree with the last line quite harshly. If we are damn good with our inject and are pumping drones like we should while playing this style, losing 10 drones is nothing when we have another 40 elsewhere at this point in the game. Not to mention we can simply use one round of larva and bam...we are back to where we are in about 50 seconds. If a zerg isn't like 10+ villagers ahead anyway (especially if you are cannoning up yourself) then things are going to go south quick | ||
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Inkarnate
Canada840 Posts
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Meff
Italy287 Posts
On October 18 2010 04:01 XiGua wrote: In my last 15 Nexus game, my opponent double expanded. But I killed too many overlords so I guess he was too much behind in eco. No, he did not double expand. He got a single expansion early on, then secured a third base at about 9:30. To give a comparison of timings for those who aren't used to them, most 4-gate pushes hit at about the 7:30 mark. What I'd mean with "double expand" would be something like 14 pool, 15 hatch, 18 hatch. Quite the opposite, your opponent did a 14 gas, 14 pool, 15 hatch after putting 4 drones on gas. This is why he was behind on economy, not from OL hunts that come after the 11 minutes mark. | ||
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scDeluX
Canada1341 Posts
Best answer from zerg would be fast roach and pressure both entrance but with some cannons it could be tricky. I don't think 3rd expo is the answers cause fast 8 gate blink stalker will rape you earlier than you think. | ||
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bech
Denmark162 Posts
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Meff
Italy287 Posts
On October 19 2010 01:56 ScDeluX wrote: I don't think 3rd expo is the answers cause fast 8 gate blink stalker will rape you earlier than you think. Can you give a timing for it, even if approximative? | ||
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
On October 19 2010 02:06 Meff wrote: Can you give a timing for it, even if approximative? I have no idea, but the timing before your third kicks in is pretty large. just sayin | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
Early roach aggression can work if the toss is being careless or greedy and doesn't put up enough cannons, but it is not difficult to stop for the P if he is prepared. The best way to do this actually is not to rush straight to roaches off of 1 base (i.e. 5RR), but to take your natural, get some eco going off 2 bases, and hit with 10+ roaches followed by lings or hydra right before or just as the toss is getting his warpgates up. Mutas can also work, but like OP says, going phoenix is pretty common for the toss, and although muta/ling is great against only warpgate or robo variants, if you run into phoenix you're in trouble. A fast pool (6 or 10 pool) will get scouted, and the toss will just put a forge up instead of nexus first and block it. | ||
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Ekko
United States72 Posts
@bech there is no such thing as quick ultra tech  | ||
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
On October 19 2010 02:34 Anihc wrote: The correct zerg response is indeed to double expand, although not right away as some people are saying. Getting queens/drones will be much better for your economy than a 3rd hatch at 20 supply. However, you definitely won't have enough time to fully saturate all 3 bases or tech to ultras by the time the 6-8 warpgate attack comes. Take your 3rd base at around 30-50 supply (depending on how much early pressure you may want to put on the P to force him into placing more cannons), and macro up a hydra/roach army (and/or lings if you prefer). Do not get too greedy and drone too hard, you have less time than you think. Early roach aggression can work if the toss is being careless or greedy and doesn't put up enough cannons, but it is not difficult to stop for the P if he is prepared. The best way to do this actually is not to rush straight to roaches off of 1 base (i.e. 5RR), but to take your natural, get some eco going off 2 bases, and hit with 10+ roaches followed by lings or hydra right before or just as the toss is getting his warpgates up. Mutas can also work, but like OP says, going phoenix is pretty common for the toss, and although muta/ling is great against only warpgate or robo variants, if you run into phoenix you're in trouble. A fast pool (6 or 10 pool) will get scouted, and the toss will just put a forge up instead of nexus first and block it. 10 pool comes out ahead against forge first, so it's fine | ||
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h2j
United States23 Posts
On October 19 2010 02:34 Anihc wrote: The correct zerg response is indeed to double expand, although not right away as some people are saying. Getting queens/drones will be much better for your economy than a 3rd hatch at 20 supply. However, you definitely won't have enough time to fully saturate all 3 bases or tech to ultras by the time the 6-8 warpgate attack comes. Take your 3rd base at around 30-50 supply (depending on how much early pressure you may want to put on the P to force him into placing more cannons), and macro up a hydra/roach army (and/or lings if you prefer). Do not get too greedy and drone too hard, you have less time than you think. ... A fast pool (6 or 10 pool) will get scouted, and the toss will just put a forge up instead of nexus first and block it. This. Lost a game last night because I threw down a 3rd as he started mining his natural. My army wasn't big enough when he pushed out after saturating his natural, with blink stalkers/zeolots from 8 gates | ||
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Roaming
United States239 Posts
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Diks
Belgium1880 Posts
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