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Jungle Basin, the worst balanced map imo, is too much of an advantage for the Protoss against Zerg.
I play random, but whenever I get the map Jungle Basin against a Zerg I seriously think it's auto gg when I get Protoss.
What I do is simply 15 Nexus+ Show Spoiler +
Then I go either Phoenix, or just mass blink stalkers. Usually I combine these two and sometimes I add some zealots if I am high on minerals, sometimes void rays just for fun's sake. My army will own his mainly because of my eco advantage and because of the overlord hunting I've been doing with my phoenix to stop his production.
The problem is the destructible rocks that secures the natural 100%.
+ Show Spoiler +The yellow dots are placement for cannons
The blue rings are for the wall-in.
The red rings are of DEATH!, the new ramp.
I just wall off my main ramp and then use the rocks as my new ramp. The Zerg can't do anything! (I think)
What I want to ask you guys is how to counter this, because one day I'll get Zerg on Jungle basin against a Protoss, if he goes for 15 Nexus...
Help!
Replays:
First time trying 15 Nexus
Third time 15 Nexus, imba overlord hunt.
Got into Diamond after a 15 Nexus game. FE Protoss Fighting BW-style!
XiGua
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Could a nice mod please change the thread to SC2 Strategy? Please.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
Would a zerg double expand work? Isn't that what Zerg had to do in Broodwar?
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In my last 15 Nexus game, my opponent double expanded. But I killed too many overlords so I guess he was too much behind in eco.
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zerg can always go muta and harass u which make u go stalkers and zerg can just go muta/ling and win vs protoss if somehow he stops it with pheonix stop the muta production and go hydra/roach and u will win if u play it right
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15 nexus? lol.
Assuming you opened hatch first, once you scout it, which should be shortly after the nexus is put down, ling/roach all-in or drone hard and take a quick 3rd.
Although honestly I think the all-in will be better cause it will work like 99% of the time and a lot can happen to skew the advantage a 3rd will give you. (like a ton of phoenixes. -.-)
EDIT; this is in the wrong section btw.
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Dude, this is the tournament section, put this in strategy.
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for me zerg double expand isnt possible on this map because all possible 3rd bases are so offensive so that you need perfect timing, scouting and army composition not to loose your 3rd against his timing push.
if i see his early nexus i just try to bling or roach bust him as i would loose a macro game on that map anyways.
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With the new patch... I don't think fast expanding as toss vs zerg is really effective.
Roaches are going to tear your wall down free from cannon retribution now.
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Basin can be tough for Z. Against any 15 Nexus build I think the best response for the Z player is to double expo, but on Basin the third is so far away that its almost impossible to defend.
Regardless, double expo into a muta play is my favorite response. If I can sniff out a Stargate play before comitting to my spire tech, I can just make 2 rounds of roaches and go win outright.
The key for all ZvX play is staying one base ahead. No different for 15 Nexus.
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Added a replay where I go 15 Nexus.
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On October 18 2010 04:06 rattus22 wrote:
Dude, this is the tournament section, put this in strategy.
Read his post immediately after the first.
More on topic, hadn't even thought of 15 nexus (haven't played this map that frequently, also, am random...so those two conditions do not happen often), thanks for the suggestion. As for what you can do in response? Personally, I would double expand, drone heavily and tech. Alternatively, if you see the the wall off, quick roach and take down his wall in.
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Ok thread was moved not funny.
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Um this map sucks in general for zerg but I think zvt more so then zvp. If your hatching first and he nexus's first just drone super hard then take a third. I dont' think its the free natural that makes this map suck against toss or terran its the super hard to get third and actually control it.
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Well if you scout a 15 nexus + forge as zerg you can just double expo and drone your heart out. Zerg can produce workers faster then every other race so I can´t see where you would get an eco advantage here.
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You can't win a pure macro game vs zerg, so if you go nexus first they will have way more drones than you, good creep spread, and the production to build a crapton of units so fast.
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On October 18 2010 04:39 superbabosheki wrote:
You can't win a pure macro game vs zerg, so if you go nexus first they will have way more drones than you, good creep spread, and the production to build a crapton of units so fast.
But it doesn't look like people know how to stop me from winning, I've won against 3 diamond players with this strat and one Plat. They were all highly ranked...
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15 nexus was my fav strat vs z before patch, now its very easy counter-able with roaches
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On October 18 2010 04:39 superbabosheki wrote:
You can't win a pure macro game vs zerg, so if you go nexus first they will have way more drones than you, good creep spread, and the production to build a crapton of units so fast.
how is 2base vs 2base favorable for zerg?
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On October 18 2010 04:41 XiGua wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2010 04:39 superbabosheki wrote:
You can't win a pure macro game vs zerg, so if you go nexus first they will have way more drones than you, good creep spread, and the production to build a crapton of units so fast. But it doesn't look like people know how to stop me from winning, I've won against 3 diamond players with this strat and one Plat. They were all highly ranked...
Define "highly ranked". Diamond is littered with terrible players. I would consider myself one of those pretty bad players (compared to pros) and I'm 1550 right now. You never win solely because of a strategy. Winning 3 games with a strategy is hardly good evidence for it being a good build. I've won at least 3 games with baneling/ling all-in against protoss that don't wall-in but that doesn't mean it's a good build.
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In my practice games on iccup maps, against 15 nexus I three hatch before gas and manage to hold off varieties of 2 base pressure. Of course, this build is not applicable to Jungle Basin, on which you cannot take a third as zerg. Voted down.
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On October 18 2010 05:01 Uhh Negative wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2010 04:41 XiGua wrote:On October 18 2010 04:39 superbabosheki wrote:
You can't win a pure macro game vs zerg, so if you go nexus first they will have way more drones than you, good creep spread, and the production to build a crapton of units so fast. But it doesn't look like people know how to stop me from winning, I've won against 3 diamond players with this strat and one Plat. They were all highly ranked... Define "highly ranked". Diamond is littered with terrible players. I would consider myself one of those pretty bad players (compared to pros) and I'm 1550 right now. You never win solely because of a strategy. Winning 3 games with a strategy is hardly good evidence for it being a good build. I've won at least 3 games with baneling/ling all-in against protoss that don't wall-in but that doesn't mean it's a good build.
Well, I am platinum and my wins are so one-sided it's not even fun. I define highly ranked as someone who is ranked alot higher than me.
What I want to ask is how to stop this build by using theorycraft.
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2 base roachs I think could work nicely vs this if your quick about it.
Um, 3 base Muta's would be nice aswell.
Basically just abuse the fact that Zerg can macro so much quicker then Toss, because he'll be at a disadvantage early in the game.
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Your replay doesn't work -- looks like you copied the picture?
My major concern is that a handful of roaches can now rock a cannon. I'm not entirely sure how many cannons would be required to hold off a push, probably 3-4? Things are getting pretty spendy at that point.
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On October 18 2010 05:12 VonLego wrote:
Your replay doesn't work -- looks like you copied the picture?
My major concern is that a handful of roaches can now rock a cannon. I'm not entirely sure how many cannons would be required to hold off a push, probably 3-4? Things are getting pretty spendy at that point.
How embarrassing, I did copy paste the picture... XD
Fixed it now though.
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Okay well I 15 nex then do 8 gate blink stalker. Pretty much a double expand is too slow to star kicking in, that leads me to believe it's not the best choice. Mutas in general are bad, since it's blink stalkers your facing (most of the time)... Sometimes 2 base roach + hydra can give me some trouble, but I think Zerg shouldn't be trying to take this game to lategame.
Using this build Ive lost to roach drop, nydus in main, banelings bust. Those are the best responses. Case closed 
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Its just like in BW now with a 5 hatch hydra bust on fast expo toss. You can't rely on one cannon to hold against huge armies behind a gateway wall.
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well, tbh I agree the map is imbalanced
fast roach "could" work, but then again zerg has to make its way through the rocks which leaves me with much time to prepare; also the spot is horribly out of position, when I see your first units knocking at my door I could just move my initial army to your base and you are forced to retreat all the way back; of course I will lose the initial fight, but who cares? you are so behind then that it won't matter; normally I just lose because I get caught off guard;
double expand on the other hand seems like the perfect answer that could lead to a balanced match-up; but here the map imbalance really kicks in because a somewhat defendable third just does not exist; the middle just screems "plz mass-gateway-push me" and the side expansions are easy to harass
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On October 18 2010 05:08 XiGua wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2010 05:01 Uhh Negative wrote:On October 18 2010 04:41 XiGua wrote:On October 18 2010 04:39 superbabosheki wrote:
You can't win a pure macro game vs zerg, so if you go nexus first they will have way more drones than you, good creep spread, and the production to build a crapton of units so fast. But it doesn't look like people know how to stop me from winning, I've won against 3 diamond players with this strat and one Plat. They were all highly ranked... Define "highly ranked". Diamond is littered with terrible players. I would consider myself one of those pretty bad players (compared to pros) and I'm 1550 right now. You never win solely because of a strategy. Winning 3 games with a strategy is hardly good evidence for it being a good build. I've won at least 3 games with baneling/ling all-in against protoss that don't wall-in but that doesn't mean it's a good build. Well, I am platinum and my wins are so one-sided it's not even fun. I define highly ranked as someone who is ranked alot higher than me. What I want to ask is how to stop this build by using theorycraft.
Well theory only goes so far. The zerg can do a multitude of things and will be able to drone very hard if he sees a fast nexus because he knows no pressure is coming. The toss on the other hand must be ready for zerg aggression because of how much it costs to expand.
If it were me I would just stay on 2 base and saturate my bases faster than the protoss then probably go muta and get a third base up all while scouting to see what tech path the toss is going.
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15 Nexus is a safe build and can still fend off roaches. They key to beating it is to just macro up off of 3 bases and just be watching for the warpgate push.
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That map is actually pretty tough to do muta at high levels. This is because there isn't any space in the back of the base to fly your muta's to safely out of range of the stalkers. Blink stalkers just rape b/c of the lack of safe flying areas. Either that your muta harass won't be as effective.
I seriously hate jungle basin. I lose on this map too often b/c i can't get a freaking 3rd base. What i do to FE toss or Turtling toss's is That i just atttack go all out mid game. break down the back door with roaches and do a roach ling hydra combo b4 he can get out a colossus. That map is GG with sentries + colossus.
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I recently played with someone who made same strategy as you. I started lair and right by the time i wanted to build mutas phoenixes came. Pumped ~5 corruptors and headed for the win.
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Yeah, I played a game similar to you where I took the eco advantage against a zerg but because I was focusing so much on eco and not on army, the zerg basically created a large hydra/roach army, nydus at the other side of my rocks and took down my second base. So, it seems that the best strategy for a zerg is to attack early to try and pressure that second base. I know I'm not a very good player which is why I lost to this but considering how massive his army was and how quickly it came, I don't think a few more troops would have made much of a difference.
There's the replay but yeah, I suck so no judging.
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As a zerg, if I see the cannons go down and the expo go up with my overlord (I always send me second overlord to the rocks at my opponent's base, I will immediately double expand. One good things about jungle basin is that if you throw down your third expo at the far location, it's trivial to take the close location for your third once you've macroed up an army. By the time protoss is ready to move on you, the confrontation will be over the fourth base, not the third, and he has to win that engagement or else gg.
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15 nexus is pretty damn good on jungle basin indeed. I wouldn't combine it with a full wall-in though as the new roaches do take that down. 15 nexus into a choke at the ramp does work pretty damn well though and zerg is basically forced to go for quick 3 base to deal with that.
Fortunately for zerg if the map is quite ok for defending 3 bases though the third is a bit close to your opponent. Definately favored for toss but I don't think it is that bad.
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I am sorry but this build just plain sucks. The replay you added your game was filled with flaws, as was your opponent. He couldve beaten you so early.. just mass roach and come up or destroy rocks and all in ling... he can seriously just beat u by double expanding too.
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On October 18 2010 09:08 never_toss wrote:
I am sorry but this build just plain sucks. The replay you added your game was filled with flaws, as was your opponent. He couldve beaten you so early.. just mass roach and come up or destroy rocks and all in ling... he can seriously just beat u by double expanding too.
...
If I ever see early roaches I just put down more gateways since I can afford it and mass stalkers earlier. Seriously, this build doesn't suck and is very viable, especially on Jungle Basin!
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Added a new replay where the Zerg does double expand but with the early phoenix pressure, he can't get a higher income than mine. OVERLORD HUNT FTW!
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Is taking a third really that difficult? I usually just take the 3:00 in the top position. Destroy the rocks ASAP, and you can spread the creep with overlords because they won't really be attacked back there.
But yea, I keep hearing that this is too difficult to take a third with. IMO its a hell of a lot nicer than Scrap Station where its sometimes safer to just grab the gold. You even have a ramp to defend the 3rd with.
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My Fail Pool will stop any 15 Nex shenanigans and at least force a forge/cannon/gatewaybat the entrance.
Beyond that, I would be forced to go 2 base 3 hatch ling/roach. That will take me strongly into mid/late game as I would be able to burn my way up to 40 drones, then sit on 3 hatches worth of roaches + lings while I take my 3rd.
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roaches should punish any early expansion for protoss, his cyber core will be late and so will any forces to block ramp. also.. if you are having trouble with protoss just roach rush every time, you'll win.
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I have never had a protoss 15 nex against me on this map, but I would probably get two queens, a half saturated expansion and pump out a shit ton of roaches. And I would start hitting your rocks very early with zerglings. I'm not sure how it would go but I wouldn't put my money on the miracle defense.
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mass roach and bring an ovie to his ramp. Snipe the shit out of everything and bust in.
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A simple timing push with mass roaches would destroy this strat.
But well, what wouldn't do a well-microed squad of roaches in 1.1.2...
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roach/hydra timing push
14 hatch
-> saturate both
2 overseers to delay colossi/storm
-> roach/hydra with some upgrades. go
every game i played versus FE protoss i knocked at his door while he was trying to chrono out colossi
overseer comes into play
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As the protoss I LOVE seeing roaches/lings early on - it gives me a ]clear economy advantage even if I need a couple more cannons. I like to encourage this type of all-in roach play by placing a pilon at the Z's expo with the scouting probe, so they feel they can't expo on time and panic. The main ramp is very narrow and you can easily have 3 cannons + 2 stalkers attacking down when the roaches get there. Roaches also mean delayed mutas.
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On October 19 2010 00:10 lovewithlea wrote:
roach/hydra timing push
14 hatch
-> saturate both
2 overseers to delay colossi/storm
-> roach/hydra with some upgrades. go
every game i played versus FE protoss i knocked at his door while he was trying to chrono out colossi
overseer comes into play
The overseer idea is pretty cool and vastly underused!
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On October 19 2010 00:22 citi.zen wrote:
As the protoss I LOVE seeing roaches/lings early on - it gives me a ]clear economy advantage even if I need a couple more cannons. I like to encourage this type of all-in roach play by placing a pilon at the Z's expo with the scouting probe, so they feel they can't expo on time and panic. The main ramp is very narrow and you can easily have 3 cannons + 2 stalkers attacking down when the roaches get there. Roaches also mean delayed mutas.
You're underestimating the Zerg macro mechanics if you think that massing 7-10 roachs early game is an all-in.
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against any protoss fast expo build i double expand (one to the gold of there is an open gold nearby). i'll get my spawning pool super late, don't make an extractor until like 30 supply; everything that lets me power drones that much faster. zerg can macro the fastest of any races, so by the time protoss has his second saturated and he's starting to get an army built up, i have 3 bases saturated and can slam out a whole army the second i see it fit.
i definitely see a lot of trouble double expanding on jungle basin, though. the map is really anti-zerg. i'd say that your best bet is just voting down the map =P
but if you don't want to do that, you could risk the double expand or just all-in roach and break down the rocks at his natural.
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hatchery-->cancel-->build evo at his nat--> cost 150+drone mins not sure about timings
just came to mind :D may be worth it
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On October 18 2010 04:39 superbabosheki wrote:
You can't win a pure macro game vs zerg, so if you go nexus first they will have way more drones than you, good creep spread, and the production to build a crapton of units so fast.
What are you talking about? The zerg always needs to be ahead in base count otherwise they will lose the macro game. You cant split making drones and units off of a lesser number of bases well enough to win against any decent player.
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There is a lot of bad advice going around in this thread like people talking about mutas to fight stalkers and phoenix, etc...
This build is more of an eco-all in than it is as safe as you think. If I see someone doing this, I will go lings into corruptor/ultra. Ultras will rip through your stalkers and the corruptors will own phoenix anytime they come in and try to graviton beam a Queen (since your creep is so wide spread, they are amazing healers of ultras as well as aa..on creep). There is no way you will be able to keep up with a zerg who is left to macro. Ever.
1600 zerg so take it for what it's worth
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On October 19 2010 01:02 Pfeff wrote:
There is a lot of bad advice going around in this thread like people talking about mutas to fight stalkers and phoenix, etc...
This build is more of an eco-all in than it is as safe as you think. If I see someone doing this, I will go lings into corruptor/ultra. Ultras will rip through your stalkers and the corruptors will own phoenix anytime they come in and try to graviton beam an ultra. There is no way you will be able to keep up with a zerg who is left to macro. Ever.
1600 zerg so take it for what it's worth
u can graviton ultras? i was pretty sure it isnt possible until now
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I have used a double expo but I would not on this map. If you pull it off you have to be very careful about scouting probes and keeping a good eye on their base yourself. A protoss could make a low down wall as if they were FE'ing and get zealots out relatively fast enough to win the game. It's a huge economic investment with large risks but huge rewards.
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@Pfeff, you can't gravitron ultras they are immune
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I can't believe Zergs are still complaining after the last patch. If he expands, go roach, knocked down back door rocks, then pressure both entrances. That or you can just take an early 3rd.
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Veto jungle basin. You will thank me.
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Ultras seem fine, but the real question is - how to stop the phoenix harrass and still have a standard build that won't delay anything before the push?
Also, the phoenix will scout for the Protoss and if he ever sees Ultralisk caverns, Immortals ftw.
The pros with this build is that you can almost adapt Zerg-style with your buildings since you have soooo much money.
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All zerg has to do is double expo into muta infestor ling. Now you're stuck on two base while the zerg takes the map, techs to ultras and proceeds to run you over. Pheonix can't counter mutas with infestor support, so you can't overlord harass if the zerg has good creep spread, and if you move out, zerg has the option to come in and kill every single worker you have.
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double expand, make a queen on main and expo and with the queen at the main spread creep first, the one at the first expansion for larvae
bascially, u need 2 bases saturated and some army for the first push, spine crawlers on the 2nd expansion, then pump drones after holding off the first protoss push, you should then have 3 mining bases vs his 2, leaving you to decide what to do
make sure the creep is spread to every base you have though !
though strategys arent 100% reliable, this is starcraft afterall, but definatly need to double expand and spread creep to each base.
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if you roll zerg why dont you take an early hatch (14?) and then take an early third. maybe skip zergling speed with your first 100 gas and go straight for lair tech into spire
spine crawlers should be able to hold the ramp choke at your main as well as your third (third's being the expansions at the 8(?) and 2(?) positions (the ones to the far right and left)
this would allow you to build an economy that could be stronger than the 15 nexus and get fast mutas for map control
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On October 19 2010 01:04 Gont wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 01:02 Pfeff wrote:
There is a lot of bad advice going around in this thread like people talking about mutas to fight stalkers and phoenix, etc...
This build is more of an eco-all in than it is as safe as you think. If I see someone doing this, I will go lings into corruptor/ultra. Ultras will rip through your stalkers and the corruptors will own phoenix anytime they come in and try to graviton beam an ultra. There is no way you will be able to keep up with a zerg who is left to macro. Ever.
1600 zerg so take it for what it's worth u can graviton ultras? i was pretty sure it isnt possible until now
I meant Queens, not ultras. My bad. Usually once I'm to Ultras I bring a couple Queens to heal since creep is everywhere from overlords and tumors.
Thanks for pointing out my mistake. I edited my other post to avoid confusion.
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On October 19 2010 01:28 Punic wrote:
if you roll zerg why dont you take an early hatch (14?) and then take an early third. maybe skip zergling speed with your first 100 gas and go straight for lair tech into spire
spine crawlers should be able to hold the ramp choke at your main as well as your third (third's being the expansions at the 8(?) and 2(?) positions (the ones to the far right and left)
this would allow you to build an economy that could be stronger than the 15 nexus and get fast mutas for map control
The problem is basin has no viable 3rds you can defend without an army already.
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Based on my (admittedly limited) experience against this thus far, here's what I've seen:
- You can block the nexus with your scout during the time where they'd drop it and then check their base. If you saw a forge on your way in, ya might as well just hang out in blocking position for a while and then scout their main again (while scouting your base for any shenanigans, of course)
- It seems to take me 3 hatches (third hatch could be in main if necessary) and 2 queens to win the economic war against an FE. Otherwise I'll be behind if I don't deal damage. Anything short of that isn't enough larve. Obviously you have to drone hard initially to support it, but you do have a window to do that.
On this particular map I'm thinking expanding to the side base would be nice because if he attacks it you come in from behind on defense and he has no retreat option. So to attack that he's effectively putting his army in a do or die position. Worst case scenario you lose the expansion but it gave you the larve you needed to keep pace with him early and you have to find a way to retake your expo. Best case scenario, you wipe out his army and he has a major problem. If both sides lose the majority of their armies, that's alright for you as well.
I'm certainly willing to try out some options with someone later today. NA server code 330
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On October 19 2010 01:16 XiGua wrote:
Ultras seem fine, but the real question is - how to stop the phoenix harrass and still have a standard build that won't delay anything before the push?
Also, the phoenix will scout for the Protoss and if he ever sees Ultralisk caverns, Immortals ftw.
The pros with this build is that you can almost adapt Zerg-style with your buildings since you have soooo much money.
I wouldn't worry too much about a phoenix killing a few overlords while I am ripping apart everything you have with ultras/queen or two for healing and a critical mass of zerglings to mop up whatever the ultras can't kill. Got immortals for my ultras? I got zerglings for days, and by the time I'm at ultras, they are severely upgraded and that much more bad ass and it doesn't hurt that those same upgrades affect ultras. Besides, I usually make a few extra overlords to shit creep anyway. 100 minerals for a section of creep highway is pretty badass, plus they allow you spread tumors faster if you move the overlord and shit creep at the max distance of the tumor
(I'll just make 50 overlords at once if I need to rebuild and keep them in my base)
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Just open 10 pool on this map.
10 pool 12 overlord queen + 4 sets of lings, and expo-hatch at 18 (before the overlord,) and use first 25 of queen's energy on a creeptumor.
But against 15 nexus you can just pump lings because you'll rape him.
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On October 19 2010 00:26 TeWy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 00:22 citi.zen wrote:
As the protoss I LOVE seeing roaches/lings early on - it gives me a ]clear economy advantage even if I need a couple more cannons. I like to encourage this type of all-in roach play by placing a pilon at the Z's expo with the scouting probe, so they feel they can't expo on time and panic. The main ramp is very narrow and you can easily have 3 cannons + 2 stalkers attacking down when the roaches get there. Roaches also mean delayed mutas. You're underestimating the Zerg macro mechanics if you think that massing 7-10 roachs early game is an all-in.
Are you serious? Making 7-10 roaches is the equivalent of a zealot coming up to your base and killing 7-10 drones, on top of the minerals and gas you spent. Making 4 cannons and chronoing out a few stalkers to hold off the roaches definitely doesn't hurt toss' economy as much as losing 7-10 workers. Zerg's macro is amazing but not to the point where you can throw away 10 workers in exchange for making the other guy build a few cannons.
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On October 19 2010 01:40 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 00:26 TeWy wrote:On October 19 2010 00:22 citi.zen wrote:
As the protoss I LOVE seeing roaches/lings early on - it gives me a ]clear economy advantage even if I need a couple more cannons. I like to encourage this type of all-in roach play by placing a pilon at the Z's expo with the scouting probe, so they feel they can't expo on time and panic. The main ramp is very narrow and you can easily have 3 cannons + 2 stalkers attacking down when the roaches get there. Roaches also mean delayed mutas. You're underestimating the Zerg macro mechanics if you think that massing 7-10 roachs early game is an all-in. Are you serious? Making 7-10 roaches is the equivalent of a zealot coming up to your base and killing 7-10 drones, on top of the minerals and gas you spent. Making 4 cannons and chronoing out a few stalkers to hold off the roaches definitely doesn't hurt toss' economy as much as losing 7-10 workers. Zerg's macro is amazing but not to the point where you can throw away 10 workers in exchange for making the other guy build a few cannons.
I disagree with the last line quite harshly. If we are damn good with our inject and are pumping drones like we should while playing this style, losing 10 drones is nothing when we have another 40 elsewhere at this point in the game. Not to mention we can simply use one round of larva and bam...we are back to where we are in about 50 seconds.
If a zerg isn't like 10+ villagers ahead anyway (especially if you are cannoning up yourself) then things are going to go south quick
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6--10 Pool, or any pool-> hatch speedling play will shut this down. Pressure the rocks and the front, if theres even a wall up in time.
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On October 18 2010 04:01 XiGua wrote:
In my last 15 Nexus game, my opponent double expanded. But I killed too many overlords so I guess he was too much behind in eco.
No, he did not double expand. He got a single expansion early on, then secured a third base at about 9:30. To give a comparison of timings for those who aren't used to them, most 4-gate pushes hit at about the 7:30 mark.
What I'd mean with "double expand" would be something like 14 pool, 15 hatch, 18 hatch. Quite the opposite, your opponent did a 14 gas, 14 pool, 15 hatch after putting 4 drones on gas.
This is why he was behind on economy, not from OL hunts that come after the 11 minutes mark.
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I'm a toss and I still think thats its a P favored map.
Best answer from zerg would be fast roach and pressure both entrance but with some cannons it could be tricky.
I don't think 3rd expo is the answers cause fast 8 gate blink stalker will rape you earlier than you think.
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What happens if your opponent techs to ultras real quick? perhaps with Hydra backup for your void rays? Wont you get torn apart?
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On October 19 2010 01:56 ScDeluX wrote:
I don't think 3rd expo is the answers cause fast 8 gate blink stalker will rape you earlier than you think.
Can you give a timing for it, even if approximative?
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On October 19 2010 02:06 Meff wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 01:56 ScDeluX wrote:
I don't think 3rd expo is the answers cause fast 8 gate blink stalker will rape you earlier than you think. Can you give a timing for it, even if approximative?
I have no idea, but the timing before your third kicks in is pretty large. just sayin
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The correct zerg response is indeed to double expand, although not right away as some people are saying. Getting queens/drones will be much better for your economy than a 3rd hatch at 20 supply. However, you definitely won't have enough time to fully saturate all 3 bases or tech to ultras by the time the 6-8 warpgate attack comes. Take your 3rd base at around 30-50 supply (depending on how much early pressure you may want to put on the P to force him into placing more cannons), and macro up a hydra/roach army (and/or lings if you prefer). Do not get too greedy and drone too hard, you have less time than you think.
Early roach aggression can work if the toss is being careless or greedy and doesn't put up enough cannons, but it is not difficult to stop for the P if he is prepared. The best way to do this actually is not to rush straight to roaches off of 1 base (i.e. 5RR), but to take your natural, get some eco going off 2 bases, and hit with 10+ roaches followed by lings or hydra right before or just as the toss is getting his warpgates up.
Mutas can also work, but like OP says, going phoenix is pretty common for the toss, and although muta/ling is great against only warpgate or robo variants, if you run into phoenix you're in trouble.
A fast pool (6 or 10 pool) will get scouted, and the toss will just put a forge up instead of nexus first and block it.
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I agree its really hard for zerg on that map. Roach isn't a great build either because its such a long map that either you have to wait for speed or by the time you get there they have too many stalkers.
@bech there is no such thing as quick ultra tech
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On October 19 2010 02:34 Anihc wrote:
The correct zerg response is indeed to double expand, although not right away as some people are saying. Getting queens/drones will be much better for your economy than a 3rd hatch at 20 supply. However, you definitely won't have enough time to fully saturate all 3 bases or tech to ultras by the time the 6-8 warpgate attack comes. Take your 3rd base at around 30-50 supply (depending on how much early pressure you may want to put on the P to force him into placing more cannons), and macro up a hydra/roach army (and/or lings if you prefer). Do not get too greedy and drone too hard, you have less time than you think.
Early roach aggression can work if the toss is being careless or greedy and doesn't put up enough cannons, but it is not difficult to stop for the P if he is prepared. The best way to do this actually is not to rush straight to roaches off of 1 base (i.e. 5RR), but to take your natural, get some eco going off 2 bases, and hit with 10+ roaches followed by lings or hydra right before or just as the toss is getting his warpgates up.
Mutas can also work, but like OP says, going phoenix is pretty common for the toss, and although muta/ling is great against only warpgate or robo variants, if you run into phoenix you're in trouble.
A fast pool (6 or 10 pool) will get scouted, and the toss will just put a forge up instead of nexus first and block it.
10 pool comes out ahead against forge first, so it's fine
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On October 19 2010 02:34 Anihc wrote:
The correct zerg response is indeed to double expand, although not right away as some people are saying. Getting queens/drones will be much better for your economy than a 3rd hatch at 20 supply. However, you definitely won't have enough time to fully saturate all 3 bases or tech to ultras by the time the 6-8 warpgate attack comes. Take your 3rd base at around 30-50 supply (depending on how much early pressure you may want to put on the P to force him into placing more cannons), and macro up a hydra/roach army (and/or lings if you prefer). Do not get too greedy and drone too hard, you have less time than you think.
...
A fast pool (6 or 10 pool) will get scouted, and the toss will just put a forge up instead of nexus first and block it.
This.
Lost a game last night because I threw down a 3rd as he started mining his natural. My army wasn't big enough when he pushed out after saturating his natural, with blink stalkers/zeolots from 8 gates
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Doesn't any roach rush or baneling bust annihilate you? They're designed to bust a wall and kill you even if you aren't fast expanding.
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Zerg easily counter this by taking double expension on gold base and drone like psycho while techin to whater he wants
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On October 19 2010 00:22 citi.zen wrote:
As the protoss I LOVE seeing roaches/lings early on - it gives me a ]clear economy advantage even if I need a couple more cannons. I like to encourage this type of all-in roach play by placing a pilon at the Z's expo with the scouting probe, so they feel they can't expo on time and panic. The main ramp is very narrow and you can easily have 3 cannons + 2 stalkers attacking down when the roaches get there. Roaches also mean delayed mutas.
Yeah its kind of funny when tones off people are Yelling that something isn't viable with a game this new. FE is super viable. Bw didnt start with FE build but transitioned to them while everyone yelled it isnt viable.
Just recently i found out that i can 14cc and defend a 4 gate pretty well with repair. Its a matter of practice.
For all you guys who say something isn't viable SHUT UP because one day it just might be so. Especially when it comes to FE builds.
P.S. Zerg ALL-INs are really easy to hold with "MORE THE ONE CANNON". Only an idiot would only build 1 cannon, add a few stalkers and bam i win because the stupid zerg tried busting me. 15 nexus is super viable.
Just cause its harder doesn't mean its not viable. It just takes more practice and skill.
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On October 19 2010 00:26 TeWy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 00:22 citi.zen wrote:
As the protoss I LOVE seeing roaches/lings early on - it gives me a ]clear economy advantage even if I need a couple more cannons. I like to encourage this type of all-in roach play by placing a pilon at the Z's expo with the scouting probe, so they feel they can't expo on time and panic. The main ramp is very narrow and you can easily have 3 cannons + 2 stalkers attacking down when the roaches get there. Roaches also mean delayed mutas. You're underestimating the Zerg macro mechanics if you think that massing 7-10 roachs early game is an all-in.
Thats like me killing 7 drones and costing you 750 minerals and 250 gas worth of resources. Not to mention the resources those drones would have harvested. All while the protoss is macroing up.
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On October 18 2010 05:01 Uhh Negative wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2010 04:41 XiGua wrote:On October 18 2010 04:39 superbabosheki wrote:
You can't win a pure macro game vs zerg, so if you go nexus first they will have way more drones than you, good creep spread, and the production to build a crapton of units so fast. But it doesn't look like people know how to stop me from winning, I've won against 3 diamond players with this strat and one Plat. They were all highly ranked... Define "highly ranked". Diamond is littered with terrible players. I would consider myself one of those pretty bad players (compared to pros) and I'm 1550 right now. You never win solely because of a strategy. Winning 3 games with a strategy is hardly good evidence for it being a good build. I've won at least 3 games with baneling/ling all-in against protoss that don't wall-in but that doesn't mean it's a good build.
People who've climbed their way up to Diamond over time seem to think that diamond league is full of amazing great players. They couldn't be further from the truth.
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In the current state of game, the players we have in Diamond are the best in this game. If progamer is the definition of a good sc2 player, then starcraft doesn't have many of them.
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On October 19 2010 02:34 Anihc wrote:
The correct zerg response is indeed to double expand, although not right away as some people are saying. Getting queens/drones will be much better for your economy than a 3rd hatch at 20 supply.
However, you definitely won't have enough time to fully saturate all 3 bases or tech to ultras by the time the 6-8 warpgate attack comes. Take your 3rd base at around 30-50 supply (depending on how much early pressure you may want to put on the P to force him into placing more cannons)
I just tested a 14 pool, 15 hatch, 18 hatch against a 14 pool, 15 hatch, 33 hatch by checking what I could get with them at the 7:30 mark; I tried to get gas when it made sense for both openings (18 at for the former, a little earlier for the latter and then cutting it in favour of minerals once I had the larvae).
The former had 615 minerals, 196 gas, 46 drones, 7 overlords and 3 queens at the 7:30 mark. Zergling speed was completed, the roach warren was up and a lair was up; two geysers were taken; nothing was being produced, 14 larvae were ready across the three hatcheries.
The latter had 804 minerals, 152 gas, 49 drones, 7 overlords and 2 queens at the 7:30 mark. Zergling speed was completed, the roach warren was almost up and the lair was at about 80% completion; two geysers were taken; nothing was being produced, 9 larvae were ready across the three hatcheries.
Expanding at 33 does seem slightly stronger (3 extra drones), but as far as I'm able to play them the two openings seem substantially equivalent.
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I think good diamond players are in the 1800 ++ rating. The truly amazing players that have a shot at becoming pro are 2000+ imo.
1500 -1650 players have a lot of fine tuning to do. Game mechanics are good but they tend to make bad game decisions and react slower to different strategies.
Bad decision = fighting at a small choke
slower response = the guy gets air and you barely fend it off and now your at a disadvantage as a result of it.
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On October 19 2010 05:38 Meff wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 02:34 Anihc wrote:
The correct zerg response is indeed to double expand, although not right away as some people are saying. Getting queens/drones will be much better for your economy than a 3rd hatch at 20 supply.
However, you definitely won't have enough time to fully saturate all 3 bases or tech to ultras by the time the 6-8 warpgate attack comes. Take your 3rd base at around 30-50 supply (depending on how much early pressure you may want to put on the P to force him into placing more cannons) I just tested a 14 pool, 15 hatch, 18 hatch against a 14 pool, 15 hatch, 33 hatch by checking what I could get with them at the 7:30 mark; I tried to get gas when it made sense for both openings (18 at for the former, a little earlier for the latter and then cutting it in favour of minerals once I had the larvae). The former had 615 minerals, 196 gas, 46 drones, 7 overlords and 3 queens at the 7:30 mark. Zergling speed was completed, the roach warren was up and a lair was up; two geysers were taken; nothing was being produced, 14 larvae were ready across the three hatcheries. The latter had 804 minerals, 152 gas, 49 drones, 7 overlords and 2 queens at the 7:30 mark. Zergling speed was completed, the roach warren was almost up and the lair was at about 80% completion; two geysers were taken; nothing was being produced, 9 larvae were ready across the three hatcheries. Expanding at 33 does seem slightly stronger (3 extra drones), but as far as I'm able to play them the two openings seem substantially equivalent.
Interesting test, although I'd like to see what your exact BOs were for both build orders. The other advantage of a later 3rd hatch is that you are in better position to put early pressure on the toss and force him to waste money on cannons, and deny scouting. If you get the 3rd hatch too early the reverse can happen - the toss can put pressure on you with with chrono'ed zealots out of 1 or 2 gateways.
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On October 19 2010 06:01 Anihc wrote:
Interesting test, although I'd like to see what your exact BOs were for both build orders. The other advantage of a later 3rd hatch is that you are in better position to put early pressure on the toss and force him to waste money on cannons, and deny scouting. If you get the 3rd hatch too early the reverse can happen - the toss can put pressure on you with with chrono'ed zealots out of 1 or 2 gateways.
Here are the replays. I tested against a computer opponent (as opposed to a local Yabot run) so as to have them.
http://screplays.com/replays/mef/11873
http://screplays.com/replays/mef/11875
There's probably room for optimization in both, mind, and they somewhat reflect the fact that I didn't have to worry about an actual opponent (no scout, no pair of 'lings to deny the scout; then again, it should affect both builds equally).
If you do have any idea for improving the order, rather than the execution, I'll be glad to hear them instead of having to tinker on my own. :D
That said... pressure from chronoed zealots out of 1-2 gates doesn't actually seem that scary to me. They can't be reinforced easily and therefore your defender's advantage should force heavier casualties on P and a lot of static as you counter-attack. This should offset the eco hit from not droning as hard as you could.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/6/64/Jungle_Basin.jpg/400px-Jungle_Basin.jpg)
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