How to stop a 15 Nexus as Zerg? - Page 2

VelRa_G

Canada304 Posts

October 17 2010 20:05 GMT

#21

In my practice games on iccup maps, against 15 nexus I three hatch before gas and manage to hold off varieties of 2 base pressure. Of course, this build is not applicable to Jungle Basin, on which you cannot take a third as zerg. Voted down.

XiGua

Sweden3085 Posts

October 17 2010 20:08 GMT

#22

On October 18 2010 05:01 Uhh Negative wrote:

Show nested quote +

Define "highly ranked". Diamond is littered with terrible players. I would consider myself one of those pretty bad players (compared to pros) and I'm 1550 right now. You never win solely because of a strategy. Winning 3 games with a strategy is hardly good evidence for it being a good build. I've won at least 3 games with baneling/ling all-in against protoss that don't wall-in but that doesn't mean it's a good build.

Well, I am platinum and my wins are so one-sided it's not even fun. I define highly ranked as someone who is ranked alot higher than me.
What I want to ask is how to stop this build by using theorycraft.

Blaize

United States91 Posts

October 17 2010 20:11 GMT

#23

2 base roachs I think could work nicely vs this if your quick about it.

Um, 3 base Muta's would be nice aswell.

Basically just abuse the fact that Zerg can macro so much quicker then Toss, because he'll be at a disadvantage early in the game.

VonLego

United States519 Posts

October 17 2010 20:12 GMT

#24

Your replay doesn't work -- looks like you copied the picture?

My major concern is that a handful of roaches can now rock a cannon. I'm not entirely sure how many cannons would be required to hold off a push, probably 3-4? Things are getting pretty spendy at that point.

XiGua

Sweden3085 Posts

October 17 2010 20:16 GMT

#25

On October 18 2010 05:12 VonLego wrote:
Your replay doesn't work -- looks like you copied the picture?

My major concern is that a handful of roaches can now rock a cannon. I'm not entirely sure how many cannons would be required to hold off a push, probably 3-4? Things are getting pretty spendy at that point.

How embarrassing, I did copy paste the picture... XD

Fixed it now though.

FiWiFaKi

Canada9858 Posts

October 17 2010 20:24 GMT

#26

Okay well I 15 nex then do 8 gate blink stalker. Pretty much a double expand is too slow to star kicking in, that leads me to believe it's not the best choice. Mutas in general are bad, since it's blink stalkers your facing (most of the time)... Sometimes 2 base roach + hydra can give me some trouble, but I think Zerg shouldn't be trying to take this game to lategame.

Using this build Ive lost to roach drop, nydus in main, banelings bust. Those are the best responses. Case closed

Bull-Demon

United States582 Posts

October 17 2010 20:30 GMT

#27

Its just like in BW now with a 5 hatch hydra bust on fast expo toss. You can't rely on one cannon to hold against huge armies behind a gateway wall.

sleepingdog

Austria6145 Posts

October 17 2010 20:34 GMT

#28

well, tbh I agree the map is imbalanced

fast roach "could" work, but then again zerg has to make its way through the rocks which leaves me with much time to prepare; also the spot is horribly out of position, when I see your first units knocking at my door I could just move my initial army to your base and you are forced to retreat all the way back; of course I will lose the initial fight, but who cares? you are so behind then that it won't matter; normally I just lose because I get caught off guard;
double expand on the other hand seems like the perfect answer that could lead to a balanced match-up; but here the map imbalance really kicks in because a somewhat defendable third just does not exist; the middle just screems "plz mass-gateway-push me" and the side expansions are easy to harass

Uhh Negative

United States1090 Posts

October 17 2010 20:35 GMT

#29

On October 18 2010 05:08 XiGua wrote:

Show nested quote +

Well theory only goes so far. The zerg can do a multitude of things and will be able to drone very hard if he sees a fast nexus because he knows no pressure is coming. The toss on the other hand must be ready for zerg aggression because of how much it costs to expand.

If it were me I would just stay on 2 base and saturate my bases faster than the protoss then probably go muta and get a third base up all while scouting to see what tech path the toss is going.

thezergk

United States492 Posts

October 17 2010 20:39 GMT

#30

15 Nexus is a safe build and can still fend off roaches. They key to beating it is to just macro up off of 3 bases and just be watching for the warpgate push.

Benshin88

United States183 Posts

October 17 2010 20:48 GMT

#31

That map is actually pretty tough to do muta at high levels. This is because there isn't any space in the back of the base to fly your muta's to safely out of range of the stalkers. Blink stalkers just rape b/c of the lack of safe flying areas. Either that your muta harass won't be as effective.

I seriously hate jungle basin. I lose on this map too often b/c i can't get a freaking 3rd base. What i do to FE toss or Turtling toss's is That i just atttack go all out mid game. break down the back door with roaches and do a roach ling hydra combo b4 he can get out a colossus. That map is GG with sentries + colossus.

k43r

Poland112 Posts

October 17 2010 21:38 GMT

#32

I recently played with someone who made same strategy as you. I started lair and right by the time i wanted to build mutas phoenixes came. Pumped ~5 corruptors and headed for the win.

KotaOnCue

United States180 Posts

October 17 2010 21:46 GMT

#33

Yeah, I played a game similar to you where I took the eco advantage against a zerg but because I was focusing so much on eco and not on army, the zerg basically created a large hydra/roach army, nydus at the other side of my rocks and took down my second base. So, it seems that the best strategy for a zerg is to attack early to try and pressure that second base. I know I'm not a very good player which is why I lost to this but considering how massive his army was and how quickly it came, I don't think a few more troops would have made much of a difference.

There's the replay but yeah, I suck so no judging.

pwadoc

271 Posts

October 17 2010 23:40 GMT

#34

As a zerg, if I see the cannons go down and the expo go up with my overlord (I always send me second overlord to the rocks at my opponent's base, I will immediately double expand. One good things about jungle basin is that if you throw down your third expo at the far location, it's trivial to take the close location for your third once you've macroed up an army. By the time protoss is ready to move on you, the confrontation will be over the fourth base, not the third, and he has to win that engagement or else gg.

Markwerf

Netherlands3728 Posts

October 17 2010 23:54 GMT

#35

15 nexus is pretty damn good on jungle basin indeed. I wouldn't combine it with a full wall-in though as the new roaches do take that down. 15 nexus into a choke at the ramp does work pretty damn well though and zerg is basically forced to go for quick 3 base to deal with that.
Fortunately for zerg if the map is quite ok for defending 3 bases though the third is a bit close to your opponent. Definately favored for toss but I don't think it is that bad.

andiCR

Costa Rica2273 Posts

October 18 2010 00:08 GMT

#36

I am sorry but this build just plain sucks. The replay you added your game was filled with flaws, as was your opponent. He couldve beaten you so early.. just mass roach and come up or destroy rocks and all in ling... he can seriously just beat u by double expanding too.

XiGua

Sweden3085 Posts

October 18 2010 12:16 GMT

#37

On October 18 2010 09:08 never_toss wrote:
I am sorry but this build just plain sucks. The replay you added your game was filled with flaws, as was your opponent. He couldve beaten you so early.. just mass roach and come up or destroy rocks and all in ling... he can seriously just beat u by double expanding too.

...
If I ever see early roaches I just put down more gateways since I can afford it and mass stalkers earlier. Seriously, this build doesn't suck and is very viable, especially on Jungle Basin!

XiGua

Sweden3085 Posts

October 18 2010 13:19 GMT

#38

Added a new replay where the Zerg does double expand but with the early phoenix pressure, he can't get a higher income than mine. OVERLORD HUNT FTW!

DoubleReed

United States4130 Posts

October 18 2010 13:33 GMT

#39

Is taking a third really that difficult? I usually just take the 3:00 in the top position. Destroy the rocks ASAP, and you can spread the creep with overlords because they won't really be attacked back there.

But yea, I keep hearing that this is too difficult to take a third with. IMO its a hell of a lot nicer than Scrap Station where its sometimes safer to just grab the gold. You even have a ramp to defend the 3rd with.

Jermstuddog

United States2231 Posts

October 18 2010 13:36 GMT

#40

My Fail Pool will stop any 15 Nex shenanigans and at least force a forge/cannon/gatewaybat the entrance.

Beyond that, I would be forced to go 2 base 3 hatch ling/roach. That will take me strongly into mid/late game as I would be able to burn my way up to 40 drones, then sit on 3 hatches worth of roaches + lings while I take my 3rd.

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