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On October 19 2010 00:22 citi.zen wrote:
As the protoss I LOVE seeing roaches/lings early on - it gives me a ]clear economy advantage even if I need a couple more cannons. I like to encourage this type of all-in roach play by placing a pilon at the Z's expo with the scouting probe, so they feel they can't expo on time and panic. The main ramp is very narrow and you can easily have 3 cannons + 2 stalkers attacking down when the roaches get there. Roaches also mean delayed mutas.
Yeah its kind of funny when tones off people are Yelling that something isn't viable with a game this new. FE is super viable. Bw didnt start with FE build but transitioned to them while everyone yelled it isnt viable.
Just recently i found out that i can 14cc and defend a 4 gate pretty well with repair. Its a matter of practice.
For all you guys who say something isn't viable SHUT UP because one day it just might be so. Especially when it comes to FE builds.
P.S. Zerg ALL-INs are really easy to hold with "MORE THE ONE CANNON". Only an idiot would only build 1 cannon, add a few stalkers and bam i win because the stupid zerg tried busting me. 15 nexus is super viable.
Just cause its harder doesn't mean its not viable. It just takes more practice and skill.
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On October 19 2010 00:26 TeWy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 00:22 citi.zen wrote:
As the protoss I LOVE seeing roaches/lings early on - it gives me a ]clear economy advantage even if I need a couple more cannons. I like to encourage this type of all-in roach play by placing a pilon at the Z's expo with the scouting probe, so they feel they can't expo on time and panic. The main ramp is very narrow and you can easily have 3 cannons + 2 stalkers attacking down when the roaches get there. Roaches also mean delayed mutas. You're underestimating the Zerg macro mechanics if you think that massing 7-10 roachs early game is an all-in.
Thats like me killing 7 drones and costing you 750 minerals and 250 gas worth of resources. Not to mention the resources those drones would have harvested. All while the protoss is macroing up.
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On October 18 2010 05:01 Uhh Negative wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2010 04:41 XiGua wrote:On October 18 2010 04:39 superbabosheki wrote:
You can't win a pure macro game vs zerg, so if you go nexus first they will have way more drones than you, good creep spread, and the production to build a crapton of units so fast. But it doesn't look like people know how to stop me from winning, I've won against 3 diamond players with this strat and one Plat. They were all highly ranked... Define "highly ranked". Diamond is littered with terrible players. I would consider myself one of those pretty bad players (compared to pros) and I'm 1550 right now. You never win solely because of a strategy. Winning 3 games with a strategy is hardly good evidence for it being a good build. I've won at least 3 games with baneling/ling all-in against protoss that don't wall-in but that doesn't mean it's a good build.
People who've climbed their way up to Diamond over time seem to think that diamond league is full of amazing great players. They couldn't be further from the truth.
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In the current state of game, the players we have in Diamond are the best in this game. If progamer is the definition of a good sc2 player, then starcraft doesn't have many of them.
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On October 19 2010 02:34 Anihc wrote:
The correct zerg response is indeed to double expand, although not right away as some people are saying. Getting queens/drones will be much better for your economy than a 3rd hatch at 20 supply.
However, you definitely won't have enough time to fully saturate all 3 bases or tech to ultras by the time the 6-8 warpgate attack comes. Take your 3rd base at around 30-50 supply (depending on how much early pressure you may want to put on the P to force him into placing more cannons)
I just tested a 14 pool, 15 hatch, 18 hatch against a 14 pool, 15 hatch, 33 hatch by checking what I could get with them at the 7:30 mark; I tried to get gas when it made sense for both openings (18 at for the former, a little earlier for the latter and then cutting it in favour of minerals once I had the larvae).
The former had 615 minerals, 196 gas, 46 drones, 7 overlords and 3 queens at the 7:30 mark. Zergling speed was completed, the roach warren was up and a lair was up; two geysers were taken; nothing was being produced, 14 larvae were ready across the three hatcheries.
The latter had 804 minerals, 152 gas, 49 drones, 7 overlords and 2 queens at the 7:30 mark. Zergling speed was completed, the roach warren was almost up and the lair was at about 80% completion; two geysers were taken; nothing was being produced, 9 larvae were ready across the three hatcheries.
Expanding at 33 does seem slightly stronger (3 extra drones), but as far as I'm able to play them the two openings seem substantially equivalent.
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I think good diamond players are in the 1800 ++ rating. The truly amazing players that have a shot at becoming pro are 2000+ imo.
1500 -1650 players have a lot of fine tuning to do. Game mechanics are good but they tend to make bad game decisions and react slower to different strategies.
Bad decision = fighting at a small choke
slower response = the guy gets air and you barely fend it off and now your at a disadvantage as a result of it.
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On October 19 2010 05:38 Meff wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2010 02:34 Anihc wrote:
The correct zerg response is indeed to double expand, although not right away as some people are saying. Getting queens/drones will be much better for your economy than a 3rd hatch at 20 supply.
However, you definitely won't have enough time to fully saturate all 3 bases or tech to ultras by the time the 6-8 warpgate attack comes. Take your 3rd base at around 30-50 supply (depending on how much early pressure you may want to put on the P to force him into placing more cannons) I just tested a 14 pool, 15 hatch, 18 hatch against a 14 pool, 15 hatch, 33 hatch by checking what I could get with them at the 7:30 mark; I tried to get gas when it made sense for both openings (18 at for the former, a little earlier for the latter and then cutting it in favour of minerals once I had the larvae). The former had 615 minerals, 196 gas, 46 drones, 7 overlords and 3 queens at the 7:30 mark. Zergling speed was completed, the roach warren was up and a lair was up; two geysers were taken; nothing was being produced, 14 larvae were ready across the three hatcheries. The latter had 804 minerals, 152 gas, 49 drones, 7 overlords and 2 queens at the 7:30 mark. Zergling speed was completed, the roach warren was almost up and the lair was at about 80% completion; two geysers were taken; nothing was being produced, 9 larvae were ready across the three hatcheries. Expanding at 33 does seem slightly stronger (3 extra drones), but as far as I'm able to play them the two openings seem substantially equivalent.
Interesting test, although I'd like to see what your exact BOs were for both build orders. The other advantage of a later 3rd hatch is that you are in better position to put early pressure on the toss and force him to waste money on cannons, and deny scouting. If you get the 3rd hatch too early the reverse can happen - the toss can put pressure on you with with chrono'ed zealots out of 1 or 2 gateways.
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On October 19 2010 06:01 Anihc wrote:
Interesting test, although I'd like to see what your exact BOs were for both build orders. The other advantage of a later 3rd hatch is that you are in better position to put early pressure on the toss and force him to waste money on cannons, and deny scouting. If you get the 3rd hatch too early the reverse can happen - the toss can put pressure on you with with chrono'ed zealots out of 1 or 2 gateways.
Here are the replays. I tested against a computer opponent (as opposed to a local Yabot run) so as to have them.
http://screplays.com/replays/mef/11873
http://screplays.com/replays/mef/11875
There's probably room for optimization in both, mind, and they somewhat reflect the fact that I didn't have to worry about an actual opponent (no scout, no pair of 'lings to deny the scout; then again, it should affect both builds equally).
If you do have any idea for improving the order, rather than the execution, I'll be glad to hear them instead of having to tinker on my own. :D
That said... pressure from chronoed zealots out of 1-2 gates doesn't actually seem that scary to me. They can't be reinforced easily and therefore your defender's advantage should force heavier casualties on P and a lot of static as you counter-attack. This should offset the eco hit from not droning as hard as you could.
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EPT
