roaches should punish any early expansion for protoss, his cyber core will be late and so will any forces to block ramp. also.. if you are having trouble with protoss just roach rush every time, you'll win.

onmach

United States1241 Posts

October 18 2010 13:57 GMT

#42

I have never had a protoss 15 nex against me on this map, but I would probably get two queens, a half saturated expansion and pump out a shit ton of roaches. And I would start hitting your rocks very early with zerglings. I'm not sure how it would go but I wouldn't put my money on the miracle defense.

sikyon

Canada1045 Posts

October 18 2010 15:00 GMT

#43

mass roach and bring an ovie to his ramp. Snipe the shit out of everything and bust in.

TeWy

France714 Posts

October 18 2010 15:10 GMT

#44

A simple timing push with mass roaches would destroy this strat.
But well, what wouldn't do a well-microed squad of roaches in 1.1.2...

lovewithlea

168 Posts

October 18 2010 15:10 GMT

#45

roach/hydra timing push

14 hatch

-> saturate both
2 overseers to delay colossi/storm
-> roach/hydra with some upgrades. go

every game i played versus FE protoss i knocked at his door while he was trying to chrono out colossi

overseer comes into play

citi.zen

2509 Posts

October 18 2010 15:22 GMT

#46

As the protoss I LOVE seeing roaches/lings early on - it gives me a ]clear economy advantage even if I need a couple more cannons. I like to encourage this type of all-in roach play by placing a pilon at the Z's expo with the scouting probe, so they feel they can't expo on time and panic. The main ramp is very narrow and you can easily have 3 cannons + 2 stalkers attacking down when the roaches get there. Roaches also mean delayed mutas.

citi.zen

2509 Posts

October 18 2010 15:25 GMT

#47

On October 19 2010 00:10 lovewithlea wrote:
roach/hydra timing push

14 hatch

-> saturate both
2 overseers to delay colossi/storm
-> roach/hydra with some upgrades. go

every game i played versus FE protoss i knocked at his door while he was trying to chrono out colossi

overseer comes into play

The overseer idea is pretty cool and vastly underused!

TeWy

France714 Posts

October 18 2010 15:26 GMT

#48

On October 19 2010 00:22 citi.zen wrote:
As the protoss I LOVE seeing roaches/lings early on - it gives me a ]clear economy advantage even if I need a couple more cannons. I like to encourage this type of all-in roach play by placing a pilon at the Z's expo with the scouting probe, so they feel they can't expo on time and panic. The main ramp is very narrow and you can easily have 3 cannons + 2 stalkers attacking down when the roaches get there. Roaches also mean delayed mutas.

You're underestimating the Zerg macro mechanics if you think that massing 7-10 roachs early game is an all-in.

universalwill

United States654 Posts

October 18 2010 15:38 GMT

#49

against any protoss fast expo build i double expand (one to the gold of there is an open gold nearby). i'll get my spawning pool super late, don't make an extractor until like 30 supply; everything that lets me power drones that much faster. zerg can macro the fastest of any races, so by the time protoss has his second saturated and he's starting to get an army built up, i have 3 bases saturated and can slam out a whole army the second i see it fit.

i definitely see a lot of trouble double expanding on jungle basin, though. the map is really anti-zerg. i'd say that your best bet is just voting down the map =P

but if you don't want to do that, you could risk the double expand or just all-in roach and break down the rocks at his natural.

Gont

Germany239 Posts

October 18 2010 15:45 GMT

#50

hatchery-->cancel-->build evo at his nat--> cost 150+drone mins not sure about timings

just came to mind :D may be worth it

GreEny K

Germany7312 Posts

October 18 2010 15:55 GMT

#51

On October 18 2010 04:39 superbabosheki wrote:
You can't win a pure macro game vs zerg, so if you go nexus first they will have way more drones than you, good creep spread, and the production to build a crapton of units so fast.

What are you talking about? The zerg always needs to be ahead in base count otherwise they will lose the macro game. You cant split making drones and units off of a lesser number of bases well enough to win against any decent player.

Pfeff

United States270 Posts

October 18 2010 16:02 GMT

#52

There is a lot of bad advice going around in this thread like people talking about mutas to fight stalkers and phoenix, etc...

This build is more of an eco-all in than it is as safe as you think. If I see someone doing this, I will go lings into corruptor/ultra. Ultras will rip through your stalkers and the corruptors will own phoenix anytime they come in and try to graviton beam a Queen (since your creep is so wide spread, they are amazing healers of ultras as well as aa..on creep). There is no way you will be able to keep up with a zerg who is left to macro. Ever.

1600 zerg so take it for what it's worth

Gont

Germany239 Posts

October 18 2010 16:04 GMT

#53

On October 19 2010 01:02 Pfeff wrote:
There is a lot of bad advice going around in this thread like people talking about mutas to fight stalkers and phoenix, etc...

This build is more of an eco-all in than it is as safe as you think. If I see someone doing this, I will go lings into corruptor/ultra. Ultras will rip through your stalkers and the corruptors will own phoenix anytime they come in and try to graviton beam an ultra. There is no way you will be able to keep up with a zerg who is left to macro. Ever.

1600 zerg so take it for what it's worth

u can graviton ultras? i was pretty sure it isnt possible until now

OrangeOrangeOrange

United States13 Posts

October 18 2010 16:07 GMT

#54

I have used a double expo but I would not on this map. If you pull it off you have to be very careful about scouting probes and keeping a good eye on their base yourself. A protoss could make a low down wall as if they were FE'ing and get zealots out relatively fast enough to win the game. It's a huge economic investment with large risks but huge rewards.

OrangeOrangeOrange

United States13 Posts

October 18 2010 16:09 GMT

#55

@Pfeff, you can't gravitron ultras they are immune

divertiti

Canada106 Posts

October 18 2010 16:10 GMT

#56

I can't believe Zergs are still complaining after the last patch. If he expands, go roach, knocked down back door rocks, then pressure both entrances. That or you can just take an early 3rd.

ToxNub

Canada805 Posts

October 18 2010 16:11 GMT

#57

Veto jungle basin. You will thank me.

XiGua

Sweden3085 Posts

October 18 2010 16:16 GMT

#58

Ultras seem fine, but the real question is - how to stop the phoenix harrass and still have a standard build that won't delay anything before the push?

Also, the phoenix will scout for the Protoss and if he ever sees Ultralisk caverns, Immortals ftw.

The pros with this build is that you can almost adapt Zerg-style with your buildings since you have soooo much money.

OreoBoi

Canada1639 Posts

October 18 2010 16:19 GMT

#59

All zerg has to do is double expo into muta infestor ling. Now you're stuck on two base while the zerg takes the map, techs to ultras and proceeds to run you over. Pheonix can't counter mutas with infestor support, so you can't overlord harass if the zerg has good creep spread, and if you move out, zerg has the option to come in and kill every single worker you have.

optical630

United Kingdom768 Posts

October 18 2010 16:21 GMT

#60

double expand, make a queen on main and expo and with the queen at the main spread creep first, the one at the first expansion for larvae

bascially, u need 2 bases saturated and some army for the first push, spine crawlers on the 2nd expansion, then pump drones after holding off the first protoss push, you should then have 3 mining bases vs his 2, leaving you to decide what to do

make sure the creep is spread to every base you have though !

though strategys arent 100% reliable, this is starcraft afterall, but definatly need to double expand and spread creep to each base.