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Artosis
United States2138 Posts
On October 08 2010 18:00 FREEloss_ca wrote:
Hey Artosis!
Big fan, and thanks for the replay packs!
Q1: What do you find is the best way to deal with 3warpgate into expand and 4warpgate all-in?
I like to go mass muta/ling in ZvP, but I can't start droning/teching until I'm safe from this early pressure. What do you prefer to keep yourself alive? Mass spinecrawlers, mass speedlings, fast roach, or a combo of everything? Mass lings seem to hurt my drone count quite a bit. I've attempted 6 Spines + lings, but this still seems to get beat, especially when P goes all-in. I just can't start my muta tech until I have a good drone count, which is never the case when I'm constantly pumping speedlings to hold off the Protoss pressure. My biggest issue with ZvP right now is surviving the first 8 minutes.
Q2: As stated previously, I like to go muta/ling in ZvP; harassing the P constantly with mutas while I try to reach critical mass with them, meanwhile expanding/droning/getting upgrades. I always opt for this build when protoss FE's. However, I've encountered P's that like to go FE into 2 stargate. I can't break their wall-off with mass lings, and phoenixes are always out in large enough numbers to shut down my initial mutas. Now I'm in trouble. My mutas can't harass, overlords/drones are being picked off, and I'm forced to completely switch my tech to hydras. However, at this point I always feel too far behind; my third is constantly harassed by the ~10 phoenixes, and all my minerals are going into overlords/new queens/new drones. Protoss then pushes out once he has a couple of colossi and steamrolls me, as I never have enough roach/hydra in time. What do I do?
Q3: How do I stop a Protoss 200/200 push? Usually I contain them on their 2 bases while massing muta/ling and getting upgrades. They sit on their asses until they reach max; at this point they push out with 3-4 colossi, a couple immortals and a bunch of zealots/stalkers; basically a mix of everything. By this point I've been maxed myself on pure muta/ling for a few minutes, just waiting for them to push. I'm also at 5 base by this point. The issue is, my muta/ling army gets steam rolled, even if my lings are 2-2 and my mutas are 2-1, I've had my army decimated. The Protoss almost feels like he's at critical mass; there's nothing I can do to stop this army. This is especially frustrating because I know if I stop it the game is pretty much over and I win. Do I stop production at 150ish supply and get ultras?
Q1. Totally different questions. 3 warp expois a normal build, so u dont 'deal' with it. 4 warp allin is best killed with ling hydra and low drones.
Q2. U can either add in corrupters or switch to infestor and rush to ultras.
Q3. Maxed muta ling beats maxed p easily, just make sure most of ur supply is mutas. U should have 0 gas. Counter his base for pylons and core before u engage.
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Artosis, Thanks again for the second replay pack I hope we get to see more.
Q1- normally I go Roach/sling into mass mutas vs protoss Im not sure if this is the best but its the only way I can snipe collosus. What is your thought process behind getting the infestors? is it designed to fend off 4gates for an early tech to Ultra?
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Hey Artosis,
Most questions I had were actually answered through these questions already, good questions and thanks for the answers ! I do hope to see a pack 3 at some point in time when you get a chance. I know GSL is coming up, so I'm not expecting it any time soon. Not sure if you've gone to the prelims or not, but I wish you the best of luck.
My main question is for your ZvZ. You advise ling/bane builds to get better. I have difficulty with ling/bane though and believe it to be a fundamental control error on my part. I can defend with the build well, but any offense starts to degrade quickly as I try to position better. I've got the APM, but how do you control group and micro when you're on the offense ? Sorry for the vague question, not sure how to word it better.
You mention that ultras work better with your current strategies rather than brood lords.. When would brood lords be more viable than ultras in either a general or specific sense ? I notice in a ZvP metalopolis game that you use both. I know BL usually are great at breaking entrenched positions. Did you feel that he entrenched himself or is there another reason ?
BTW, I expect to see zerg win rate skyrocket specifically because of you and this thread !
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Just to ask directly, for someone who advocated the double pylon cannon tester walloff on the State of the game podcast you dont seem to overly committ to blindly defending an attempt at such an opening similar to fruitdealer in that you have no drone on patrol on the bottom of your ramp.
Did something happen that made you less intimidated by the opening or did you find an efficient way to deal with it that does not involve stopping it before it happens?
after having watched all your games i can definately see that there is room for improvement in my own style and these replays definately have alot of strong infestor play.
Would you care to comment on the nydusworm into roach spinecrawler contain that you experienced?.
Do you think it holds any validity as an opening if the transition is into something more solid than mutalisks?
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What do you think when you see a expo go down in a game? I understand it depends A LOT but bare with me ;o
For example, expanding right before you attack is a common advice and considered strong. If you scout an exp coming up do you sometimes start preparing for being attacked? I've found myself collecting my shit in a clump getting ready to move out and then he hits me first just as I let go of my good unit placement.
When you see an expo go up that you want to bring down do you think using the in game clock to time the attack is something useful? When do you want to hit it?
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On October 08 2010 14:03 Artosis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 13:05 kzn wrote:
Not really a zerg question, but what is the strongest build (in your opinion, obviously) that you have encountered ZvP, all-around? Fast expansion into warpgate pressure (see Lotze vs IdrA on Blistering Sands, minus the part where Lotze wastes his army.) and also random Colossus pushes are ridiculously hard to stop.
Which game is it ? Do you have a rep link or a vod link please ?
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These are more general questions, I'll get to the replays here soon 
Q1) How much will the upcoming 1.2 patch affect you're current playstyle?
With roaches getting bigger range and infesters locking blink stalkers, ZvP will be a completely new monster.
This is my theory-
with both roaches and FG getting buff, neural parasite will indirectly become more powerful in the long run. Why? All of sudden mass roaches is a problem for Toss players, and they'll soon be needing to get more immortals then collosus. Because of that, mind controlling immorts will become crucial to do.
Can we agree that getting NP off on a immort is more manageable then getting it off on a thermal lancing colo lol?
Q2) What makes you choose between BL's and Ultras?
Earlier in the thread, you said that getting corrupters to deal with colos leaves you with weaker counterattack possibilities, is it viable to try and tech those corrupters into BLs?
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Artosis
United States2138 Posts
On October 08 2010 18:29 adeezy wrote:
Thanks artosis for this.... going to be pretty helpful witha lot of zergs and thanks for asking all the questions . my question is a little off topic
Whats your favorite Korean Food? Im so jealous you get to live in korea and see the cute girls and eat food with side dishes that are yummy! I just made some fish cake sides today !
soondooboo chigay obviously.
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Artosis
United States2138 Posts
On October 08 2010 22:51 cyrusdm wrote:
Artosis,
First off great job casting the GSL tourny! Really made the experience that much more enjoyable.
1) Whats the deciding factor for you on whether you defend your natural vs T with a couple roaches or two well placed spine crawlers?
I personally am doing the spine crawler route with speedlings vs both reapers and spines...transitioning to roaches if i see him going all out reapers (a lot more rare lately I find).
2) If it he goes fast factory for hellions and you elect for 2 spine crawlers and a queen ramp block to combat..and then you see him going mass barracks for MMM - are roaches still a good idea with him now having a decent amount of maruaders?
Usually when I see this i'm tossing down a baneling nest and massing crazy speedlings to try and hold it off until i can get muta into play (though after watching your replays I'm thinking of going infestor first vs bio) Thoughts on that?
Greatly appreciated!
Q1. Well, in the 5 rax reaper situation, if he micros correctly, you will have to transition into a low economy speed roach from speedling. For other situations, its rare for me to defend with Roaches. They cost so much and just aren't useful vs terran after that early defense, so I'll normally use speedling/spine crawler.
Q2. No, Roaches aren't a good idea. If its hellion=>1 base marine marauder, you should get to speed banes as soon as possible. Infestor vs 1 base bio is probably going to be too slow, ling/bane will be much faster and safer. vs expansion bio, infestor can be great.
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Artosis
United States2138 Posts
On October 08 2010 23:25 Tenda wrote:Show nested quote +then you just do what you can, defend what you can, add a few drones here and there. this is the learning part, where you find out what is doable in zvz. Can you briefly describe your learning experience in zvz? what major realizations did you come to? what subtle timings have you discovered when opening ling bling?
Its hard to explain I guess...
Going ling/bane and really mastering the build will teach a lot about whats possible in the matchup. The baneling changes the matchup drastically, and you need to know in which ways it does. Things like banelings vs roaches, sneaking drones in, using spine crawlers defensively vs lings and banes, creep spreading....the list goes on and on. You can learn just so much from the opening. Another one that just came to mind is how to hold map dominance with a group of lings while droning and then transitioning into roach. its all really valuable stuff to learn, and it starts at understanding how to ling/bane.
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Artosis
United States2138 Posts
On October 09 2010 01:27 H0bgawblin wrote:
You said that you had some trouble with your connection. With that said, is most of your practice done with practice partners? your with TL and OGS right now right? How do you feel about mass ladder vs practice partners? Both necessary or ladder is because you can't always practice vs your partners?
I'm only laddering atm. at top levels, practice partners should consume the majority of your practice time. Ladder is good for some things; finding new cheeses to defend, tightening build orders vs random opponents, etc. Really though, practice partners are more important. You just have to be careful you aren't playing to counter them, and instead playing correctly, not taking into account how they play.
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Artosis
United States2138 Posts
On October 09 2010 09:59 Eazypeezy wrote:
Artosis, Thanks again for the second replay pack I hope we get to see more.
Q1- normally I go Roach/sling into mass mutas vs protoss Im not sure if this is the best but its the only way I can snipe collosus. What is your thought process behind getting the infestors? is it designed to fend off 4gates for an early tech to Ultra?
Your strat is pretty good, I've been using that some recently as well. It has holes though, as do all ZvP strats atm. The infestor build I've made to try and slow protoss down, with the main goal being to kill off the sentries with fungals before engaging.
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Artosis
United States2138 Posts
On October 09 2010 13:15 Kuroiryu wrote:
Hey Artosis,
Most questions I had were actually answered through these questions already, good questions and thanks for the answers ! I do hope to see a pack 3 at some point in time when you get a chance. I know GSL is coming up, so I'm not expecting it any time soon. Not sure if you've gone to the prelims or not, but I wish you the best of luck.
My main question is for your ZvZ. You advise ling/bane builds to get better. I have difficulty with ling/bane though and believe it to be a fundamental control error on my part. I can defend with the build well, but any offense starts to degrade quickly as I try to position better. I've got the APM, but how do you control group and micro when you're on the offense ? Sorry for the vague question, not sure how to word it better.
You mention that ultras work better with your current strategies rather than brood lords.. When would brood lords be more viable than ultras in either a general or specific sense ? I notice in a ZvP metalopolis game that you use both. I know BL usually are great at breaking entrenched positions. Did you feel that he entrenched himself or is there another reason ?
BTW, I expect to see zerg win rate skyrocket specifically because of you and this thread !
Q1. If you are attacking, spread your banelings apart by a little bit over the baneling splash damage radius. Then right click into your opponent's mineral line. Use your speedlings to kill any small groups of zerglings he sends to kill banes.
Q2. Specifically, Broods are better when they have hightemplar/immortal/zealot/stalker armies. Those kill ultras dead, and you need broods to deal with them.
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Artosis
United States2138 Posts
On October 09 2010 13:35 Madkipz wrote:
Just to ask directly, for someone who advocated the double pylon cannon tester walloff on the State of the game podcast you dont seem to overly committ to blindly defending an attempt at such an opening similar to fruitdealer in that you have no drone on patrol on the bottom of your ramp.
Did something happen that made you less intimidated by the opening or did you find an efficient way to deal with it that does not involve stopping it before it happens?
after having watched all your games i can definately see that there is room for improvement in my own style and these replays definately have alot of strong infestor play.
Would you care to comment on the nydusworm into roach spinecrawler contain that you experienced?.
Do you think it holds any validity as an opening if the transition is into something more solid than mutalisks?
Q1. I don't like to blindly counter a build that's dangerous normally in my practice. I like to practice against the build a lot, to see what I can come up with. I'm actually quite good against the cannon blocks at this point, but when it matters i do tend to be more careful about blocking it from occurring.
Q2. Nah, that isn't a good build by him. I could have played better in the early game and not allowed that to happen.
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Artosis
United States2138 Posts
On October 10 2010 09:52 Patriot.dlk wrote:
What do you think when you see a expo go down in a game? I understand it depends A LOT but bare with me ;o
For example, expanding right before you attack is a common advice and considered strong. If you scout an exp coming up do you sometimes start preparing for being attacked? I've found myself collecting my shit in a clump getting ready to move out and then he hits me first just as I let go of my good unit placement.
When you see an expo go up that you want to bring down do you think using the in game clock to time the attack is something useful? When do you want to hit it?
There's a lot of half-truths and misinformations going on with when its good to attack and not. Its not actually good to lay down a hatch/cc/nexus and then attack. In theory, its terrible. What is great though, is to expand at the end of an attack, or pressure and expand in the meantime.
The weakest time of a person's army in relation to their opponents, is right when the expansion finishes.
Zerg actually cannot attack people in this game, so that doesn't help a whole lot.
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Artosis
United States2138 Posts
On October 10 2010 10:08 hybride wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 14:03 Artosis wrote:On October 08 2010 13:05 kzn wrote:
Not really a zerg question, but what is the strongest build (in your opinion, obviously) that you have encountered ZvP, all-around? Fast expansion into warpgate pressure (see Lotze vs IdrA on Blistering Sands, minus the part where Lotze wastes his army.) and also random Colossus pushes are ridiculously hard to stop. Which game is it ? Do you have a rep link or a vod link please ?
its a GSL game. check out gomtv.net
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Artosis
United States2138 Posts
On October 10 2010 10:11 Zvendetta wrote:These are more general questions, I'll get to the replays here soon Q1) How much will the upcoming 1.2 patch affect you're current playstyle? With roaches getting bigger range and infesters locking blink stalkers, ZvP will be a completely new monster. This is my theory- with both roaches and FG getting buff, neural parasite will indirectly become more powerful in the long run. Why? All of sudden mass roaches is a problem for Toss players, and they'll soon be needing to get more immortals then collosus. Because of that, mind controlling immorts will become crucial to do. Can we agree that getting NP off on a immort is more manageable then getting it off on a thermal lancing colo lol? Q2) What makes you choose between BL's and Ultras? Earlier in the thread, you said that getting corrupters to deal with colos leaves you with weaker counterattack possibilities, is it viable to try and tech those corrupters into BLs?
Q1. I'm not sure how it will change the matchup yet. The problem with what you are saying is, the Colossus still counters roaches and infestors. I think more of the changes will be things you don't see. Strategies that no longer work due to the increased roach range. (walls with 1 cannon behind them, double pylon block at bottom of ramp, etc.)
Q2. BL's are vs the Immortal/Zealot/High Templar/Stalker armies. Ultras are vs teh other stuff. No, its not viable to go BLs vs Colossus timing pushes. They will kill you far before you have them.
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Artosis you are my Starcraft god <3
Watched all Protoss and Terran games. Here are a few things I found out - that some people might want to know, like I did.
Artosis VS Terran
I worked out your average build order for 1v1 maps, 2v2 maps and overall.
The 1v1 and oveall were pritty simlar, in 2v2 you tended to expand first.
Here is Artosis's general Terran build order.
9 overlord
15 extractor
14 spawning pool
15 overlord
20 hatchery
Out of all 8 games your most popular unit composition was Zerglings/Hydralisks/Infestors.
In 2 games you went Ling Roach.
In 2 games you went MutaLing.
I did work out your percentage of pool and pop opening but it was on a white board, and I've cleaned it since, so I can't quote any information I'm afraid.
Notes
You often favored zergling speed instead of teching to a Lair to combat early harrasses.
You only placed one or two spinecrawlers on average instead of the half a dozen within Protoss games.
Artosis VS Protoss
I worked out your average build order for 1v1 maps, 2v2 maps and overall.
Here is Artosis's general Protoss build order.
9 overlord
15 spawning pool
16 hatchery
18 extractor
21 extractor
Out of all 13 games your most popular unit composition was Zerglings/Infestor/Ultralisks.
5 games consisted of Zergling/Infestor/Ultralisk.
1 game consisted of Roach/Zergling/Infestor/Ultralisk.
1 game consisted of Zergling/Infestor/Ultralisk/Broodlord.
1 games consisted of MutaLing/Ultra.
2 games consisted of MutaLing.
2 games consisted of Nydus Worms/Zerglings.
1 game consisted of Zergling/Hydra.
Overall - your build order consisted of.
15 spawning pool
15 or 16 hatchery
18 or 21 extractor
1v1- your build order consisted of.
15 spawning pool
15 hatchery
18 or 21 extractor
2v2- your build order consisted of.
15 spawning pool
16 hatchery
18 or 21 extractor
Notes
You built 4-6 spinecrawlers to defend in early game without building zerglings.
Overall Gameplay Notes
Spinecrawlers used to defend early game pushes/rushes.
Infestors used to defend against air attacks.
First queen used first 25 energy on a creep tumor instead of inject larva.
Place zerglings all over map where enemy will probably pass through, when a zergling dies and you
see a push.. Build units or spinecrawlers to defend, otherwise continue Drone production.
Abuse usefulness of Overseers changeling ability.
Overall Gameplay Build Order Notes
Continously spread creep, using first creep tumor placed down.
Use fisrt 100gas for Lair.
When Lair is complete, Infestation Pit.
When Infestation Pit is complete, infestors + infestor energy upgrade.
Continously building drones, only building zerglings when neccasery.
When Infestation Pit is complete, Hive upgrade.
When Hive is complete, Ultralisk Den.
When Ultralisk Den is complete, Ultralisks + armor upgrade.
When a decent amount of Infestors/Ultralisks and Zerglings is accomplished, attack and win.
I hope that helps some people, it sure as hell helped me. Your replays alone have improved my gameplay by so much! my creep spreading has been awesome, just from watching how well you do it.
And my scouting? god damn! If I ever lose a game in 2v2 now, its due to my scouting - nothing else.
I'd love to play with you some time I havn't got around to watching the ZvZ replays yet but I will, and when I do I will do the same thing I've done here. If people want me to post it, I will.
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Hey Artosis,
Let me start by saying thank you so much for helping out the community like this, and great work on casting the GSL. <3 the casting archon!
My questions are regarding your ZvZ, since this is my weakest matchup and the only set of reps I've watched so far from you.
Q1: How do you decide between a fast roach warren and a baneling nest? Is it map/spawn location dependant, or is it just whatever you feel like that game?
Q2: What prompts you to put down your expansion? Is it based on food count, how safe you feel, how much pressure your opponent is putting on you, when/if you get multiple queens?
Q3: What makes you choose between staying with one queen and getting multiples on one base? I *think* you only stayed 1 queen when you did a very aggressive ling/bane attack on LT, but if there's another reason do tell. 
Again, thanks so much for taking the time to help not-so-pro players get better! =)
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On October 07 2010 12:03 Artosis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 10:58 raybasto wrote:On October 02 2010 12:38 Artosis wrote:
Q1. Well it matters the matchup. I like roaches zvz on delta quadrant. sometimes i open roaches randomly on Kulas Ravine, just because you have to be unpredictable there. I also am toying around with Korean style ZvP which is atm heavily roach based. Just kinda mixing it up, seeing how it goes.
Can you explain this Korean style of ZvP that you mentioned? I tried doing some Roach heavy play against Toss today, with extra Queens for Creep spread/Antiair and worked pretty well. What are the advantages/disadvantages of going Roach heavy and how does this style do against the US aggressive style PvZ play (4 gate, 3 gate robo, void ray cheese). Thanks What I call Korean Style is the more roach-heavy play. A lot of koreans love to get roaches early like we saw in the beta before their nerf, and use them all over the place with burrow, etc. Some hydras get mixed in, but mostly roach. I stopped playing like that lately, as I dont think its too good. Still experimenting with roaches in different ways tho.
Every time I do roach / hydra play against protoss it ends up with colossus wiping my army out hardcore, I find ling into muta / ultra works much better, but I get screwed over if the enemy goes pheonix zealot / stalker. What can I do when they go pheonix with gateway into colossus ?
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EPT
