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Artosis
United States2138 Posts
On October 12 2010 10:14 DarkOmen wrote:
Hey again Artosis, thanks for the reply to my previous questions!
I have a couple more general questions for you now: Do you, or have you ever used something like Qxc's build order tester to work out build orders?
How long/in-depth are your build orders? Do they go to a certain point, at which time you start to just play "by feel" or are your games mapped out right to the late game?
I personally find that any opening I want to employ ends abruptly at 26 food. After that, what I do depends largely on what my opponent is doing, with the exception that I'll have a very vague long-term plan, such as speedling into muta/ling into ultra, and I just tend to make drones when I feel I can get away with it, expand when it seems unlikely to die before I get it up, etc. Also, I tend to get upgrades on a whim, like when I notice my money getting high and I'm running low on larvae, for example.
Q1. No, I never use something like that. Zerg build orders aren't very complicated on timings. Also, most of it depends on what early harassment your opponent is doing.
Q2. My build orders normally end by 30 supply. From there its feel/reaction. So many different things happen to Zerg, and without solid defenses like Sentries or Wall-ins or Bunkers, you have to just react properly. I do play with specific STRATEGIES in mind the entire time though.
yeh, exactly. your last paragraph pretty much sums it up.
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Artosis
United States2138 Posts
On October 12 2010 13:57 Kaiko wrote:
How do you deal with Tank Marine push? He'll push me right when Stim is done, and by that time they have 3-4 tanks and a bunch of Marines. I barely got my Spire up but Mutas woulda been useless since 3 50 mineral marines can pretty much take 2 Mutas if they have stim.
I had Roaches with speed upgrades and Speedlings. It was on Steppes of War.
Seems like this is pretty much the easiest push for Terrans to do that will do massive amounts of damage if not win the game outright. Tanks, even when only doing 35 damage to Lings, decimate them in a decent clump and Marines with Stim are just stupidly effective.
Your strategy is flawed. You can't open up with Speed Roaches/Speedlings and go into Mutalisk. That's a bad idea. You need a more reasonable strategy. If you want to play with Mutas, skip the roaches, and get banelings with speed. If you want to play with Roaches, get banelings with speed and drops as well.
Also, Steppes of War is the worst map for Zerg. X it off in your ladder map pool. You can't learn anything on that map except that Zerg can't play such small maps.
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Whats the most cost effective way to stop a 2 gate with 6-10 Zealots into 4 gate? If I go Speedlings, the Zealots kill me. If I go Roach, I'm so far behind that the 4 gate kills me. Thanks
EDIT: And when my opponent is doing this strategy, when is the best time to take my Natural?
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Artosis what do you feel is the best way to handle a terran pure mech army with maybe a few rines?
I see in your replay on scrap station you held off with infestor ling until you eventually go ultralisk. I see there a huge timing window in there that your opponent could of taken advantage of and done alot of damage with his force.Which leave me to think that there has to be a better way and seeing as how hydras are pretty shitty vs pure mech do you think maybe a roach/infester with some burrow play mix could do well against pure mech ?
Thanks and sorry for the pretty long question.
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Hey artosis, i really want to make love to you. Cant wait for the next one!
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Artosis
United States2138 Posts
On October 13 2010 09:28 raybasto wrote:
Whats the most cost effective way to stop a 2 gate with 6-10 Zealots into 4 gate? If I go Speedlings, the Zealots kill me. If I go Roach, I'm so far behind that the 4 gate kills me. Thanks
EDIT: And when my opponent is doing this strategy, when is the best time to take my Natural?
U should take ur natural by 20 supply. Just make lings nonstop. If he over produces zealots that much u can go banes, or pure speedling of queen and 2 hatch.
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Artosis
United States2138 Posts
On October 13 2010 13:23 ProperOne wrote:
Artosis what do you feel is the best way to handle a terran pure mech army with maybe a few rines?
I see in your replay on scrap station you held off with infestor ling until you eventually go ultralisk. I see there a huge timing window in there that your opponent could of taken advantage of and done alot of damage with his force.Which leave me to think that there has to be a better way and seeing as how hydras are pretty shitty vs pure mech do you think maybe a roach/infester with some burrow play mix could do well against pure mech ?
Thanks and sorry for the pretty long question.
I like king infestor intl ultra, but super mass roach with drops into ultra or brood is good as well.
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On October 13 2010 13:23 ProperOne wrote:
Artosis what do you feel is the best way to handle a terran pure mech army with maybe a few rines?
I see in your replay on scrap station you held off with infestor ling until you eventually go ultralisk. I see there a huge timing window in there that your opponent could of taken advantage of and done alot of damage with his force.Which leave me to think that there has to be a better way and seeing as how hydras are pretty shitty vs pure mech do you think maybe a roach/infester with some burrow play mix could do well against pure mech ?
Thanks and sorry for the pretty long question. Yes, this! I just finished playing a game on scrap station with a terran who went +1 mech weapon and pushed with 2 siege, a thor, 3 hellions and some rines, is the key roach/infestor till muta? Magic boxing muta seem useless at this point as trying to 2 base that many mutas that fast can be stressful.
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Q. Could you elaborate more on why the ZvZ roach/hydra/infestor combo is the overall best?
Assuming you're against a muta build, my instant thoughts are that you're left in the dark, have very poor mobility, can't scout with overlords, can't move out with your hydras or you lose your drones/base.
Your opponent can freely expand due to map control. Keep a tab on you with overlords or xel naga towers. Among other things, if you're spreading creep out, banelings become more effective.
From my personal experience, hydras and roaches are generally bad in ZvZ. I've never actually encountered a Zerg that uses infestors yet, but if I spot an infestation pit, my first thought would be to get burrow and set up baneling traps, if I haven't already. There's just something so awesome about burrowed banelings.
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Q. Have you come across a Mass [blue flame]Hellion (10+) and Thor strat yet? I came across it once in Ladder and it destroyed me. I have had a friend do it on me a few times and have yet to beat it, even when I know it's comming and prepare before hand. My instinct was to just mass roach since it does well vs both hellions and thor, but the repairing SCV's and the speed of the hellions make it difficult to win. The push comes with 10+ Hellions and 1-3 Thors.
I haven't tried going quicker lair tech, but I can only see infestors being helpful there since Hydra melt to blue flame and Spire takes to long to build it won't be up by the time he hits me. And if I build Infestors that cuts into my roach count by a huge amount and it's a gamble if they will have the energy to fungal the SCVs.
Do you have any advice to combat against a Mass Hellion + Thor timing attack?
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Q. Artosis, you said you don't like to use Mutas in ZvZ, and you prefer Infestor, Roach, Hydra composition. Why is this, and how do you deal with the reduced mobility of using Hydras against a player who has gone Muta?
Thanks!
EDIT: Just noticed someone a few posts above asked nearly the same question. I'll just leave my question here though anyway 
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^I'm not Artosis(currently 1500+ Z), but generally the problem with mutas is that one fungal growth and you lose your entire army without dealing any damage and as such, lose the game. Also, for the counterattack stuff Z can leave one or two infestors to their main along with about 2 spores and just Fungal the mutas as they come while you go ahead and kill them. Fungal also wrecks both Hydras and Roaches if they have no infestors because 1. Hydras drop in health so quickly you just cast 2 Fungals on a group and they're done and 2. Your Hydras will outrange Roaches so they can kill them without and resistance with your Hydras.
The main thing about the mutas is just psychology. Get over the fear and DO move out, you'll be surprised by the easy victories you'll get vs a Zerg without infestors.
@the post above that one, if he only pushes with 1-3 Thors I have no clue how you can lose with mass Roach. It's most likely not the composition that's the problem, you most likely just didn't drone well enough and fell behind in economy.
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On October 14 2010 00:38 Shikyo wrote:
^I'm not Artosis(currently 1500+ Z), but generally the problem with mutas is that one fungal growth and you lose your entire army without dealing any damage and as such, lose the game. Also, for the counterattack stuff Z can leave one or two infestors to their main along with about 2 spores and just Fungal the mutas as they come while you go ahead and kill them. Fungal also wrecks both Hydras and Roaches if they have no infestors because 1. Hydras drop in health so quickly you just cast 2 Fungals on a group and they're done and 2. Your Hydras will outrange Roaches so they can kill them without and resistance with your Hydras.
The main thing about the mutas is just psychology. Get over the fear and DO move out, you'll be surprised by the easy victories you'll get vs a Zerg without infestors.
@the post above that one, if he only pushes with 1-3 Thors I have no clue how you can lose with mass Roach. It's most likely not the composition that's the problem, you most likely just didn't drone well enough and fell behind in economy.
Since I know what he is doing I open with 15 Hatch, 14 pool. 2 Queens and energy spent on tumors first to get creep spread as quick as possible. Spine crawler + queen at ramp to keep the 4 hellion harass from entering my main. At most he killed 3 or 4 Drones with the initial 4 hellions. I then drone my ass off for as long as I can stand. Then build the mass roach army. So it isn't a case of economy. The problem is the Repairing SCVs. If I focus a thor he gets repaired my Roaches die. If I attack move, they repair everything my roaches die. If I focus the SCVs he brings more, my roaches die. My best luck has been to A-move to get SCVs repairing different things then Try and focus a thor down real quick.
It's a real bitch of a build. But you think Mass roach is the way to go also?
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On October 14 2010 01:25 Myrkur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2010 00:38 Shikyo wrote:
^I'm not Artosis(currently 1500+ Z), but generally the problem with mutas is that one fungal growth and you lose your entire army without dealing any damage and as such, lose the game. Also, for the counterattack stuff Z can leave one or two infestors to their main along with about 2 spores and just Fungal the mutas as they come while you go ahead and kill them. Fungal also wrecks both Hydras and Roaches if they have no infestors because 1. Hydras drop in health so quickly you just cast 2 Fungals on a group and they're done and 2. Your Hydras will outrange Roaches so they can kill them without and resistance with your Hydras.
The main thing about the mutas is just psychology. Get over the fear and DO move out, you'll be surprised by the easy victories you'll get vs a Zerg without infestors.
@the post above that one, if he only pushes with 1-3 Thors I have no clue how you can lose with mass Roach. It's most likely not the composition that's the problem, you most likely just didn't drone well enough and fell behind in economy. Since I know what he is doing I open with 15 Hatch, 14 pool. 2 Queens and energy spent on tumors first to get creep spread as quick as possible. Spine crawler + queen at ramp to keep the 4 hellion harass from entering my main. At most he killed 3 or 4 Drones with the initial 4 hellions. I then drone my ass off for as long as I can stand. Then build the mass roach army. So it isn't a case of economy. The problem is the Repairing SCVs. If I focus a thor he gets repaired my Roaches die. If I attack move, they repair everything my roaches die. If I focus the SCVs he brings more, my roaches die. My best luck has been to A-move to get SCVs repairing different things then Try and focus a thor down real quick. It's a real bitch of a build. But you think Mass roach is the way to go also?
Mass roach is definitely the way to go vs an early thor/scv/helion attack. Lately I've been experimenting with opening burrow-move roaches against terrans that open helion. I'm not sure how I feel about it yet but it certainly crushes the type of push you describe. You can delay him with burrow micro in the middle of the map giving you ample time to produce more roaches as well as forcing him to waste a lot of scans. Burrow-move also gives you a good counter harass option after you stop his attack.
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On October 14 2010 01:57 Fritts wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2010 01:25 Myrkur wrote:On October 14 2010 00:38 Shikyo wrote:
^I'm not Artosis(currently 1500+ Z), but generally the problem with mutas is that one fungal growth and you lose your entire army without dealing any damage and as such, lose the game. Also, for the counterattack stuff Z can leave one or two infestors to their main along with about 2 spores and just Fungal the mutas as they come while you go ahead and kill them. Fungal also wrecks both Hydras and Roaches if they have no infestors because 1. Hydras drop in health so quickly you just cast 2 Fungals on a group and they're done and 2. Your Hydras will outrange Roaches so they can kill them without and resistance with your Hydras.
The main thing about the mutas is just psychology. Get over the fear and DO move out, you'll be surprised by the easy victories you'll get vs a Zerg without infestors.
@the post above that one, if he only pushes with 1-3 Thors I have no clue how you can lose with mass Roach. It's most likely not the composition that's the problem, you most likely just didn't drone well enough and fell behind in economy. Since I know what he is doing I open with 15 Hatch, 14 pool. 2 Queens and energy spent on tumors first to get creep spread as quick as possible. Spine crawler + queen at ramp to keep the 4 hellion harass from entering my main. At most he killed 3 or 4 Drones with the initial 4 hellions. I then drone my ass off for as long as I can stand. Then build the mass roach army. So it isn't a case of economy. The problem is the Repairing SCVs. If I focus a thor he gets repaired my Roaches die. If I attack move, they repair everything my roaches die. If I focus the SCVs he brings more, my roaches die. My best luck has been to A-move to get SCVs repairing different things then Try and focus a thor down real quick. It's a real bitch of a build. But you think Mass roach is the way to go also? Mass roach is definitely the way to go vs an early thor/scv/helion attack. Lately I've been experimenting with opening burrow-move roaches against terrans that open helion. I'm not sure how I feel about it yet but it certainly crushes the type of push you describe. You can delay him with burrow micro in the middle of the map giving you ample time to produce more roaches as well as forcing him to waste a lot of scans. Burrow-move also gives you a good counter harass option after you stop his attack.
I'll have to make it a point to Lair Tech faster, but It doesn't crush it. At best it will trade. Common thought is that Oh well, roaches destroy hellions. Sure, in small numbers, but 10+ Hellions are doing 80+ AE damage to your roaches. A critical mass of Hellions + a few thors does stupid amounts of damage to Zerg Armies.
I just haven't found the balance of when to Lair, how many Spinecrawlers to build(and when), and when to stop droning and mass roach.
The range upgrade in the upcomming Patch will take this from a "Holy crap, I can't beat this build" to a "meh, guess I just gotta spam roaches for a while"
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Great replay, I just start playing SC2
I love how you spread your creeps so fast with those creep tumor (Definitely #1 at spreading those creep). Any tip you can give us on when to spread creeps? I always find myself just using spawn larvae whenever I have the energy to do so.
I'm also wondering how do I do Overlord drop while my Overlord is still moving. I try it many times but to no avail my Overlord always stop and drop instead of moving and dropping at the same time.
And lastly, I've been seeing a lot of replays of Zerg going the standard Gas > Pool > Hatch then pull 2 or all drones off gas to mine more mineral when they had that 100 gas for speed upgrade. My question is, when do you put the 3 drones back in and also why do people cut off gas immediately after getting speed upgrade considering that most of Zerg army is gas heavy.
I'm also a big fan of you and love your commentating on the GSL! Zerg fighting!!
Thanks!
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Ravens ruin the day ?
Hey Artosis,
I have a question regarding your ZvT. I’m only a 1400p Zerg so forgive me if I don’t understand your build completely. You have shown us a lot of great hydra /infestor play vs Terran and obviously this style gives Zerg a really strong mid game but I have my problems with this build.
Q1: I have seen you researched +1 missile for Hyds which shows me that you delay your ultra tech for quite a while. Have you had problems with large mech balls because of missing ultra tech?
Q2 (The more important): At the moment it seems Terrans rarely build ravens in ZvT simply because they didn’t have to. But I can imagine that detection vs. creep tumors and Point defense drones are really disgusting vs hydra play. If he delays the raven a little bit until you are far in the hydra tech route and then 2 bases pushes … personally I don’t know how to react in this spot.
Thx for the answers and keep your good community work up !
Quark
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Hey Artosis,
Got a couple questions for you.
How do you determine when is a good time to attack? I generally can macro up and defend against early pushes pretty well, but then find myself just macroing to 200/200 and throwing my army at him then. How do you know when / if you should attack before that time?
How do you deal with early MMM pushes that are heavy on marauders. I had a really tough loss to swallow the other day where my opponent went mostly marauders, and I feel that zerg doesn't really have an answer to them early game. How do you defend against this?
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Also, Steppes of War is the worst map for Zerg. X it off in your ladder map pool. You can't learn anything on that map except that Zerg can't play such small maps.
I don't know. I mean, feel free to do whatever you want, but I feel like that mentality isn't really very helpful. Minimizing your losses, even if they're greater than 50% on a particular map, could still be really useful.
If they give any indication that Steppes is going to be removed in the future, by all means, but as long as we're stuck with it...
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On October 14 2010 20:15 Carl_Sagan wrote:Show nested quote +Also, Steppes of War is the worst map for Zerg. X it off in your ladder map pool. You can't learn anything on that map except that Zerg can't play such small maps. I don't know. I mean, feel free to do whatever you want, but I feel like that mentality isn't really very helpful. Minimizing your losses, even if they're greater than 50% on a particular map, could still be really useful. If they give any indication that Steppes is going to be removed in the future, by all means, but as long as we're stuck with it...
To be honest, it *really* surprises me to hear a very high-level tournament player say to vote *any* map out.
I guess it depends on how clear your division between ladder play and tournament practice is, because yeah, I agree that it would be very useful to work on reducing your loss rate on maps that you know are disadvantageous for your race, because in any sort of "loser picks" best-of-X system, you're very likely to have to play on the maps you absolutely despise.
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EPT
