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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
New MYM.Artosis replay pack!
By popular demand, here is another replay pack of decent games I played since the last one. Lots of new ZvZ/ZvP strategies get used in this pack, as I experiment in preparation for the GSL qualifiers.
All games are on the Korean Server
Not every opponent is amazing, as I have had about ~30 disconnects recently which dropped my ladder score.
Feel free to ask any questions about the games, and I will do my best to answer them! I prefer questions specifically about the game, instead of just random open ended theory questions, because those take so long to answer.
EnjoY~~
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before i download, are there any games vs sc1 pros? <3
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I shall watch ZvP so I know what to expect from people who watch this ;D
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thnx again artosis, interested to see the new strats!
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oh jesus yes. Can't wait to watch these, thanks again Artosis ^^
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On October 02 2010 12:38 Artosis wrote:
Q1. Well it matters the matchup. I like roaches zvz on delta quadrant. sometimes i open roaches randomly on Kulas Ravine, just because you have to be unpredictable there. I also am toying around with Korean style ZvP which is atm heavily roach based. Just kinda mixing it up, seeing how it goes.
Can you explain this Korean style of ZvP that you mentioned? I tried doing some Roach heavy play against Toss today, with extra Queens for Creep spread/Antiair and worked pretty well. What are the advantages/disadvantages of going Roach heavy and how does this style do against the US aggressive style PvZ play (4 gate, 3 gate robo, void ray cheese). Thanks
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Awesome! Can't wait to see these. Thanks for answering my questions in thread 1!
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Can u do a brief description of the games, or just point the best ones / xd
thanks
Edit: nevermid. watched 2 but by the quality of the 2 every one seems to be awesome
btw is it just me or protoss in korea 4 gates about every single time ? xD
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51441 Posts
On October 07 2010 10:43 prodiG wrote:
before i download, are there any games vs sc1 pros? <3
 SinDoki
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 07 2010 10:58 raybasto wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2010 12:38 Artosis wrote:
Q1. Well it matters the matchup. I like roaches zvz on delta quadrant. sometimes i open roaches randomly on Kulas Ravine, just because you have to be unpredictable there. I also am toying around with Korean style ZvP which is atm heavily roach based. Just kinda mixing it up, seeing how it goes.
Can you explain this Korean style of ZvP that you mentioned? I tried doing some Roach heavy play against Toss today, with extra Queens for Creep spread/Antiair and worked pretty well. What are the advantages/disadvantages of going Roach heavy and how does this style do against the US aggressive style PvZ play (4 gate, 3 gate robo, void ray cheese). Thanks
What I call Korean Style is the more roach-heavy play. A lot of koreans love to get roaches early like we saw in the beta before their nerf, and use them all over the place with burrow, etc. Some hydras get mixed in, but mostly roach. I stopped playing like that lately, as I dont think its too good. Still experimenting with roaches in different ways tho.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 07 2010 11:24 GTR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 10:43 prodiG wrote:
before i download, are there any games vs sc1 pros? <3 SinDoki
oh? who was that?
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Yeah personally I'm having most success with mass muta ZvP, with roaches or lings underneath to prevent him from just running 10 zealots into my drones while my mutas are busy. Magic boxing over his army works pretty well against storm, as you can still move magic-boxed mutas and dodge relatively well. I haven't seen too many phoenix-responses, but I think some good phoenix micro could do very well against it (more range, same speed, shoots while moving). Oh and is there any chance you could get your clan mates to drop some replay packs on us? 
Edit: Wait, that's not a question. So, I guess what do you think of mass muta and what do you use nuderneath to support it? Thoughts on using a ground-focused army with mutas over, because mass ground just seems to cluttery and only about half the zerg units are attacking? 1:1 roach:muta ratio?
Oh also, thoughts on the new maps? I haven't played them but close positions on the 2 player map is REALLY REALLY close, I know they can restrict it so that you can't get close positions, but I don't know if Blizzard has this in place for 1v1. I'm liking the huge areas outside the naturals, I think a large ground-army could actually be viable on the 2v2 map.
As for jungle whatever, they can do the delta quadrant warp-in BS here as well. God damnit Blizzard. The pylon will also be nigh unkillable because the swing around is huge. Looks like I'll be keeping lings there to stop the probe or something. Oh and if you want a 3rd you have to take it in the middle of the damn map, not really liking it.
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Wow! Two replay packs within a few days time. You are freaking awesome, Artosis!. Best of luck in your qualifiers; we'll be rooting for you!
I'm excited to watch these replays; I've been having a lot of struggle against fast expanding Protoss and the annoying two pylon ramp block.
BTW, are you casting GSL S2 as well? Terrific job man. You and Tasteless both were really really professional and fun to listen to. Keep it up!
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That roach > nydus ZvZ build is really cool, actually.
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I can't seem to download the pack from the media fire link, an ad always appears over the download button and it never goes away. : (
edit: it's ad block pro.
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Love these thank you so much didn't even have time to watch all of your first pack, better speed up my watching =D
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As a ~600 Diamond I like this
(Just made Diamond league and wish to prance around waving my flag of fake knowledge at people.)
I too am very excited to watch these games and soak some info from them.
Thank you so much!!
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 07 2010 12:40 Adeny wrote:Yeah personally I'm having most success with mass muta ZvP, with roaches or lings underneath to prevent him from just running 10 zealots into my drones while my mutas are busy. Magic boxing over his army works pretty well against storm, as you can still move magic-boxed mutas and dodge relatively well. I haven't seen too many phoenix-responses, but I think some good phoenix micro could do very well against it (more range, same speed, shoots while moving). Oh and is there any chance you could get your clan mates to drop some replay packs on us? Edit: Wait, that's not a question. So, I guess what do you think of mass muta and what do you use nuderneath to support it? Thoughts on using a ground-focused army with mutas over, because mass ground just seems to cluttery and only about half the zerg units are attacking? 1:1 roach:muta ratio? Oh also, thoughts on the new maps? I haven't played them but close positions on the 2 player map is REALLY REALLY close, I know they can restrict it so that you can't get close positions, but I don't know if Blizzard has this in place for 1v1. I'm liking the huge areas outside the naturals, I think a large ground-army could actually be viable on the 2v2 map. As for jungle whatever, they can do the delta quadrant warp-in BS here as well. God damnit Blizzard. The pylon will also be nigh unkillable because the swing around is huge. Looks like I'll be keeping lings there to stop the probe or something. Oh and if you want a 3rd you have to take it in the middle of the damn map, not really liking it.
a 1:1 roach/muta ratio would be completely garbage. pure stalker could probably beat that, definitely with some sentry support. ling muta works much better together.
dont know about the new maps yet, seems pretty good so far compared to the otehr maps we have.
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I just watched some very cool infester/roach/hydra ZvPs. Have you ever played around with a quick +1 into mass ling in ZvP? I've been trying it after watching some dimaga replays, but this infester style play seems quite strong.
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Q1: What is your opinion on corruptors against colossi? I usually see you trying to outmuscle his early colossi with roaches and stuff, even if you have a spire up. Wouldn't a few corruptors be handy, provided you have little to no mutalisks remaining?
Q2: You really like spine crawlers; although they do work pretty well in conjunction with fungal growth, I sometimes wonder if you're overdoing it (namely the ZvP on Steppes of War in this replay pack). What are your thoughts on this?
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 07 2010 14:04 Dental Floss wrote:
I just watched some very cool infester/roach/hydra ZvPs. Have you ever played around with a quick +1 into mass ling in ZvP? I've been trying it after watching some dimaga replays, but this infester style play seems quite strong.
yeah i've played around with that. its absolutely terrible. dont use it.
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Quite ballsy of you to lead with your infestors when they can get picked off by collossi/stalkers seemingly w/o effort. Are you currently playing around with ling/roach/infestor because you find it too strenuous to fend off aggression while tryign to get a critical mass of mutalisks? As while there's a 50 gas differential between both units, infestors have more stopping power in low numbers~
Also, I saw you drop 9 spine crawlers after what you thought would be a 4 gate push on steppes. Were you simply overreacting or is that a number you would actually recommend due to the short rush distance?
At times, you go back to your main to take a quick glance at your hatchery but don't inject larvae even if there are no eggs in production~ Do you sometimes delay injects so as to time it with the other hatcheries? Also, how do you generally remind yourself to macro?
<3ing your replays btw. I don't even play Zerg but watching you play grants me such greater general gaming sense~ I almost feel like joining the Zerg martyr club, lol.
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why do you open gas first against toss? maybe im missing something, but i cant see how it is better than 14 pool, 15 hatch. the only thing you need to worry about early on is 2 gate, and when you open up 14 pool 15 hatch, you can skip your queen for a roach warren and hold it off any 2 gate and keep your hatch, even if it is proxy.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 07 2010 14:20 the p00n wrote:
Q1: What is your opinion on corruptors against colossi? I usually see you trying to outmuscle his early colossi with roaches and stuff, even if you have a spire up. Wouldn't a few corruptors be handy, provided you have little to no mutalisks remaining?
Q2: You really like spine crawlers; although they do work pretty well in conjunction with fungal growth, I sometimes wonder if you're overdoing it (namely the ZvP on Steppes of War in this replay pack). What are your thoughts on this?
Q1. Corrupters are nice vs the first Colossus push, but after that they are seemingly less so. They are just so useless by the time the Colos are gone, and the thing is, the Colos kill way more of your ground units than your corrupters kill of their stuff, so its kinda a losing proposition. I do normally use them some tho.
Q2. I made quite a few that game. The thing is, slow lings are 100% worthless in every way. I don't like dying early. Maybe I made too many maybe not. Impossible to tell, for sure, so I played a bit safer than normal.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 07 2010 15:13 BentoBox wrote:
Quite ballsy of you to lead with your infestors when they can get picked off by collossi/stalkers seemingly w/o effort. Are you currently playing around with ling/roach/infestor because you find it too strenuous to fend off aggression while tryign to get a critical mass of mutalisks? As while there's a 50 gas differential between both units, infestors have more stopping power in low numbers~
Also, I saw you drop 9 spine crawlers after what you thought would be a 4 gate push on steppes. Were you simply overreacting or is that a number you would actually recommend due to the short rush distance?
At times, you go back to your main to take a quick glance at your hatchery but don't inject larvae even if there are no eggs in production~ Do you sometimes delay injects so as to time it with the other hatcheries? Also, how do you generally remind yourself to macro?
<3ing your replays btw. I don't even play Zerg but watching you play grants me such greater general gaming sense~ I almost feel like joining the Zerg martyr club, lol.
Q1. Yeah, I'm kind of testing out a lot of ZvP ideas. Defending timing attacks while making Mutas can be ridiculously hard, so I've been playing around a lot with infestors.
Q2. Probably a slight overreaction. At the time I thought it was just about right. You'd be surprised what a pig headed warpgate rushes can break thru.
Q3. Sometimes I skip injects to sync my hatches. Sometimes I skip injects to save energy for transfusions if I'm scared a certain type of rush is coming. Sometimes I skip injects if I just know I can't possibly use the larva, in order to gain some energy for a transfusion later. Sometimes I just miss injects. That time was probably just me missing it. You have to gain a rythm in your macro, its the only way.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 07 2010 15:19 Tenda wrote:
why do you open gas first against toss? maybe im missing something, but i cant see how it is better than 14 pool, 15 hatch. the only thing you need to worry about early on is 2 gate, and when you open up 14 pool 15 hatch, you can skip your queen for a roach warren and hold it off any 2 gate and keep your hatch, even if it is proxy.
I don't always open gas first vs protoss, but there are a ton of reasons to do it. Firstly, the boosted out stalker rush needs speed to be dealt with. Second, I like to search around for proxy pylons nonstop. Third, if they decide to do something ridiculous, such as the really fast zealots+1sentry warpgate rush, or cannon the bottom of my ramp, I'll be uber glad I made it.
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Hey Artosis,
I watched your ZvZs and I love your play with infestors, that's where I'm trying to go with my mid-game. However, I have troubles with early-game in ZvZ, I don't really know how to open and I can see this lack of confidence reflecting on my play and I react very badly - RW after seeing an early pool for example. My question is, what's your rule for ZvZ openings? Banelings on small maps/big ramps? Roaches on small ramps like DQ?
Also, I never know when to expand, and how to react after seeing my opponent expanding : expand as well, or just do an all-in push if I can afford it?
Thx you so much for your rep, and keep up the good work
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On October 07 2010 14:45 Artosis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 14:04 Dental Floss wrote:
I just watched some very cool infester/roach/hydra ZvPs. Have you ever played around with a quick +1 into mass ling in ZvP? I've been trying it after watching some dimaga replays, but this infester style play seems quite strong. yeah i've played around with that. its absolutely terrible. dont use it.
Im so this is just too good, best quote of the day.
Ok lets be serious, if im late game vs a p and i go ultra ling, can't the protoss just counter with zealot immortal and a few sentries to block off the immortal, has happened to me several times and zealots seem really cost effect vs ultra and are not bad vs zergling.
What would be the best transition to counter that mix
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^ With a bit of micro, if you added infestors in your mix to fungal the Zealot forces the way artosis does it, you shouldn't have too much trouble dealing with the immortals with your lings. You could keep kiting the Zealots until the Protoss decides to split his forces.
Just a guess @_@
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Just what I need. I'm starting to analyse the other race's builds/timings a lot more now a days and I think this'll actually help me a lot.
Thanks, Artosis.
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really appreciate access to korean player's reps.
thanks again but there so many.
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Hi Artosis thanks for the replay pack.
I love your ZvZ, need more of them
Do you think it's still ok to go infestors + hydra when the ground distance is big.
How can you make a push without being harrased by mutas ? (Leave some infestors in the base, spores , ... ? )
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 07 2010 16:01 Ch4rlesM wrote:Hey Artosis, I watched your ZvZs and I love your play with infestors, that's where I'm trying to go with my mid-game. However, I have troubles with early-game in ZvZ, I don't really know how to open and I can see this lack of confidence reflecting on my play and I react very badly - RW after seeing an early pool for example. My question is, what's your rule for ZvZ openings? Banelings on small maps/big ramps? Roaches on small ramps like DQ? Also, I never know when to expand, and how to react after seeing my opponent expanding : expand as well, or just do an all-in push if I can afford it? Thx you so much for your rep, and keep up the good work
if u want to get actually good at zvz, do the baneling build everygame until u ,aster it. That build will teach you everything.
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Hey artosis, what would you do against a 2 base pure blink stalker w/ a few attack upgrades on meta?
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On October 07 2010 18:36 Artosis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 16:01 Ch4rlesM wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Hey Artosis, I watched your ZvZs and I love your play with infestors, that's where I'm trying to go with my mid-game. However, I have troubles with early-game in ZvZ, I don't really know how to open and I can see this lack of confidence reflecting on my play and I react very badly - RW after seeing an early pool for example. My question is, what's your rule for ZvZ openings? Banelings on small maps/big ramps? Roaches on small ramps like DQ? Also, I never know when to expand, and how to react after seeing my opponent expanding : expand as well, or just do an all-in push if I can afford it? Thx you so much for your rep, and keep up the good work if u want to get actually good at zvz, do the baneling build everygame until u ,aster it. That build will teach you everything.
Doing the 14E14P in ZvZ made me feel like I'am not learning anything (~600 Dia right know read: I suck) except for microing those 2 units. Guess I'll try that again. Switched to 14Hatch with an early scout and only did the Baneling build on 4 Player maps where my opponent spawned on the base my drone didn't scout to be safe.
Is there something you would recommend me for forcing a more macro oriented play in ZvZ without being so weak to a possible 6 Pool?
edit:
I just watched your ZvP on Steppes and would like to ask what made you cancel the 2nd Queen at your main Hatch?
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Thank you for sharing these Artosis, some really great games in here!
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Hey Artosis,
You did an interesting strat against a Protoss on Steppes of War, which was some kind of mass spine crawler defense into roach/infestor followed by ultralisks. I have a few questions about that game.
1) Why did you get so so so many spinecrawlers? Was it because your plan from the start was to turtle and drone really hard with them until he attacked, and do you think you might have went overboard with them early on?
2) Is infestor against a standard protoss army like that going to become Standard?
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On October 07 2010 19:50 Gentso wrote:
1) Why did you get so so so many spinecrawlers? Was it because your plan from the start was to turtle and drone really hard with them until he attacked, and do you think you might have went overboard with them early on?
He already answered to this above.
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totally dig the ling infester crawler into ultra strat  gl in qualifiers!
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Yeah, good luck in the qualifiers! Thanks so much for the replay pack =) You made my day, or several - so many replays  
Artosis teaching!
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 07 2010 16:30 Darkren wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 14:45 Artosis wrote:On October 07 2010 14:04 Dental Floss wrote:
I just watched some very cool infester/roach/hydra ZvPs. Have you ever played around with a quick +1 into mass ling in ZvP? I've been trying it after watching some dimaga replays, but this infester style play seems quite strong. yeah i've played around with that. its absolutely terrible. dont use it. Im so this is just too good, best quote of the day. Ok lets be serious, if im late game vs a p and i go ultra ling, can't the protoss just counter with zealot immortal and a few sentries to block off the immortal, has happened to me several times and zealots seem really cost effect vs ultra and are not bad vs zergling. What would be the best transition to counter that mix
Well you can't just choose an army that counters that...it doesn't quite work like that. You do the best you can with your first max in a long game, and then start countering protoss better as you lose it. Kill his first max if you can, and then if hes coming back with that unit comp, transition totally (you will have so many larva by then it should be easy) into something that just pwns it or catches him off guard (like mutas)
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 07 2010 17:49 LeCastor wrote:Hi Artosis thanks for the replay pack. I love your ZvZ, need more of them Do you think it's still ok to go infestors + hydra when the ground distance is big. How can you make a push without being harrased by mutas ? (Leave some infestors in the base, spores , ... ? )
if he's actually investing in mutas heavily, you can just leave some infestors behind. they cost efficiently kill mutalisks so bad if you catch them before they close that it doesn't matter if you don't have all of them with your army. The bigger the map, the harder it is to do this strat, but it is doable on all maps because infestors just pwn everything so hard.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 07 2010 19:12 Red_Storm wrote:
Hey artosis, what would you do against a 2 base pure blink stalker w/ a few attack upgrades on meta?
Hydra/Ling is pretty good, but only on creep. You can also use infestors if you went that route. His blink will move them when fungaled, but not too much and then you can hit em with ur lings.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 07 2010 19:18 Zerebreat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 18:36 Artosis wrote:On October 07 2010 16:01 Ch4rlesM wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Hey Artosis, I watched your ZvZs and I love your play with infestors, that's where I'm trying to go with my mid-game. However, I have troubles with early-game in ZvZ, I don't really know how to open and I can see this lack of confidence reflecting on my play and I react very badly - RW after seeing an early pool for example. My question is, what's your rule for ZvZ openings? Banelings on small maps/big ramps? Roaches on small ramps like DQ? Also, I never know when to expand, and how to react after seeing my opponent expanding : expand as well, or just do an all-in push if I can afford it? Thx you so much for your rep, and keep up the good work if u want to get actually good at zvz, do the baneling build everygame until u ,aster it. That build will teach you everything. Doing the 14E14P in ZvZ made me feel like I'am not learning anything (~600 Dia right know read: I suck) except for microing those 2 units. Guess I'll try that again. Switched to 14Hatch with an early scout and only did the Baneling build on 4 Player maps where my opponent spawned on the base my drone didn't scout to be safe. Is there something you would recommend me for forcing a more macro oriented play in ZvZ without being so weak to a possible 6 Pool? edit: I just watched your ZvP on Steppes and would like to ask what made you cancel the 2nd Queen at your main Hatch?
the baneling build ZvZ will teach you so many important things about ZvZ. everything in the matchup goes back to how strong that opening is. you can't do anything that isn't safe vs it. transitions in and out of it are extremely important. it can turn into absolutely anything in the mid and late game. and once u become top level at it, you and your top level opponents will not be able to kill each other with any regularity with it. thats why i say for people to really, really, REALLY practice that build.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 07 2010 19:50 Gentso wrote:
Hey Artosis,
You did an interesting strat against a Protoss on Steppes of War, which was some kind of mass spine crawler defense into roach/infestor followed by ultralisks. I have a few questions about that game.
1) Why did you get so so so many spinecrawlers? Was it because your plan from the start was to turtle and drone really hard with them until he attacked, and do you think you might have went overboard with them early on?
2) Is infestor against a standard protoss army like that going to become Standard?
It kind of turned into my plan. I was mineral heavy, wanted to defend with spines. Then the Spines bought me enough time to tech up.
No, I don't think it will become standard. I played with it a lot, and its really difficult to pull off, and not as effective as I'd like my standard ZvP strategy to be.
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Hey Artosis, just watched the ZvZ in Steppes...
Don´t u think having only infestor as anti air units is dangerous, specially since you had 2 islands, even with nydus networks you would still be very harrassed ...
Altho for what I saw in replays, koreans are pretty much attack centred and not harass ... Anyway Do you think it´s viable for infestor as unique AA defence ?
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Nice replay , thx again
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Nice pack, appreciated. Good to see pretty much versatility in strategies too, can give way more ideas than just seeing same zvp 10 times over. The DQ 15hat next to rocks in ZVP was very unusual to say the least
Again I keep seeing some very bad playing by opponents occasionally though. How is it possible the opponent goes forge+2pylon block, yet he's 0-0-0 ups @ 17min with full ground army? It's as if people have absolute no understanding how powerful upgrades can be :>
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Hey Artosis, couple questions.
Q1: Which P and T build(s) are you the most comfortable against, and why?
Q2: Which P and T build(s) give you the most difficulty at the moment, and why?
Q3(a): I haven't seen any void ray rushes in this rep pack yet, but I'm curious as to how you prefer to react to a (scouted) void ray opening. (b): You seem to prefer getting extra queens for spread in ZvT, but not ZvP. How do you react if you're expecting let's say a 4 gate based on your early scouting and he surprises you with a proxy void ray?
Q4: How do you feel about Zerg's scouting options pre-Overseer? Let's say you attempt to sack your 2 slow overlords to see his tech against a 1-base P early game, and they both get sniped by a few stalkers. Let's say this example is on Metalopolis on close ground-distance positions. How would you play in the dark in this scenario?
Q5: Do you currently use Brood Lords in any scenario, or are Ultralisks always your late game choice?
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Again I keep seeing some very bad playing by opponents occasionally though. How is it possible the opponent goes forge+2pylon block, yet he's 0-0-0 ups @ 17min with full ground army? It's as if people have absolute no understanding how powerful upgrades can be :>
on the other hand, except for the game on steppes (replay pack 2) and maybe one that slipped through my attention Artosis didn't get much upgrades either, didn't he? (Upgrades, not abilities)
i think he started them when he thought about going ultra (or before to counter the +1 attack on toss i guess)
personally i feel like zerglings are the most cost-effective unit in the game if upgraded better than the opponent
Not only do they get the most damage boost in % for the upgrades but also the result that they chew through enemies way faster gives them a) way more lifetime span (less enemies hitting them) and b) most importantly it allows them to surround other units way better (because of their higher damage output they create holes in the opponents ball faster). This often allows additional zerglings to attack compared to w/e upgrade. Early +1 zerglings can very well even do a cost-effective ramp break vs roaches/zealots and the likes (of course if there are 20+ roaches and hydras and zerglings never even reach the enemy is a different story :p)
btw you played really like the current GSL champ in that Steppes game. Not only you got a lot of different tech (of which i liked the ovie transport most, saved you 8 drones at gold expo) but also you got 2 infestation pits and i was waiting for double upgrades for infestors :D
also i felt like in this game you could get some corruptors vs those colossi who roasted your army badly multiple times (i think if your opponent was smarter in army control and not wasting his reinforcments he could have broken you right there when his army was in your former west expo)
since you had hive tech anyway you could have gotten 2-3 brood lords out of those corruptors to add to your army/screw up his expo on high ground
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On October 07 2010 21:12 Artosis wrote:
[about infestors]
No, I don't think it will become standard. I played with it a lot, and its really difficult to pull off, and not as effective as I'd like my standard ZvP strategy to be.
Given this I am wondering why you dislike the Korean style (roach heavy, especially roach burrow) versus protoss?
Anything specific ? I have found myself always getting fast roaches (and their upgrades) against P and it seems to work very nicely and get me into the mid game much better than a muta opener.
Just wondering what the issues are with it at a higher level.
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Thanks for posting... looking foward to checking out some of your ZvP builds.
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What is this baneling build you're mentioning? I'm at work and cannot watch replays. 
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thank you artosis ! GL GSL#2 =] Looking forward watching you play and cast ~
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Oh dear, oh my. I would have paid for these.
You sir, are the Man
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Thanks for the replays Artosis. ^_^ I will chime in with the others and say I am impressed with your play, especially your creep spread.
I watched all the zvts. Watching them, I wondered a couple of things:
There were several games in which the opp was going mass bio and you had seemingly many opportunities to go baneling but didn't (opting instead for infester/hydra/ultra). Is this because you are just trying out the new infester/hydra strat and leaving banes out as an option or because you had good reasons not to go banes (reasons I am missing)? I felt you could have ended several games in a much more decisive way had you gone banes, so was curious about this.
Also, I notice points in some games where your unit production is limited by larva #s, and it seemed like you had the money to build an in-base hatch and produce off it. I have not seen you build an in-base hatch in these replays yet and so I was wondering what reasons you had for this. It makes sense that with the mass expo/many queens you are going in these zvts, an in-base hatch is out of the question early-mid game, but it looked like one would help out a lot late game.
Anyway, I think this is a cool zvt play style you are using right now. Good luck with GSL2. I look forward to watching you and Tasteless commentating.
( ^^)b
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Hey Artosis!
I'm in gold and trying to work on my core before I get too fancy. You say practicing Banelings ZvZ is the best way to learn the ZvZ matchup, is there something you would say is the best learning path/opening for ZvT and ZvP?
ZvT I try to go baneling/muta/Infestor/Ultra
ZvP I try to go Roach/Hydra then... well, usually who knows.
If you have an answer or links to what you would recommend, that would be great!
The replay packs are awesome, thanks!
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Thx for this pack... The first one was really good stuff.
Q1 What do you think is the best ZvP response (except an very early pool) to an early cannon contain with expand or 4gate followup
Q2 Will you upload any coverage/content on the GSL qualifiers again ? because that was so awesome
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Thanks for the replay packs dude!
Q1: Could you elaborate on why you don't like the +1 lings in ZvP? I found some success with it against the increasingly common phoenixes -> force hydra -> stomp with collosus builds.
Q2: Is there a reason you don't hatch first more often? At 1200 diamond I've found I can defend it pretty much everytime vs toss/terran.
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Any chance of putting the replay packs on websites that don't set my antivirus off? Rather annoying when i get download warnings popping up due to questionable sites
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I haven't had a chance to watch the pack yet--does it contain the standard bling opening in zvz?
If not (or even if so), is it written down anywhere I can go look at it?
I couldn't find a non-all-in baneline build on liquipedia...
Thanks!
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I'm really loving this early infestor play ZvZ. it makes the match up so much more interesting. I'm definitely going to try out some of your ZvZ builds tonight.
watching a flock of mutas come in to snipe drones only to get fungal'd and destroyed by hydra is so glorious.
edit: also your infestor use in ZvP, I honestly never use infestor in ZvP, but the delays and control it adds is really quite phenomenal. Looks like I'm going to have to start paying a lot more attention to the infestor.
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On October 08 2010 05:49 crms wrote:
edit: also your infestor use in ZvP, I honestly never use infestor in ZvP, but the delays and control it adds is really quite phenomenal. Looks like I'm going to have to start paying a lot more attention to the infestor.
If those potential changes in that 1v1 balance thread come to fruition, Fungal Growth will stop Stalkers from blinking. That would be nice.
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Thanks for the pack. I'm learning a lot as I work through them.
Question: You wait until after then 10th drone to scout. I always thought the 10th drone was the standard scout because any later would risk running into a wall or missing signs of early aggression. Are you taking a conscious risk by scouting later, or do you believe that it is safe to wait, or do you simply not run into a lot of quick aggression in your matches?
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To share something with this with the community before your GSL qualifiers is really something extra. While some players would do anything to hide their strats.
Much respect and good luck in the GSL artosis.
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Thanks, Artosis. These will help me a lot.
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Thx for the replays! I play mostly Zerg in Ladder, mid Diamond, and I always seem to be fending off harass when I go 14 pool 13 gas, and espically when I FE. I know you don't like to do a quick rush build, but what are you opinions on a 7 pool using 6 lings to harass and then start drone pumping after that and maybe transistion into hydra or roaches for a follow up push? This question only concerns ZvP in my case. I am trying to work out a nice build order leading up to a strong mid game push that allows for early pressure.
Thanks,
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United States11390 Posts
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Thanks Artosis, fighting for the swarm
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Artosis
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On October 07 2010 21:16 noD wrote:
Hey Artosis, just watched the ZvZ in Steppes...
Don´t u think having only infestor as anti air units is dangerous, specially since you had 2 islands, even with nydus networks you would still be very harrassed ...
Altho for what I saw in replays, koreans are pretty much attack centred and not harass ... Anyway Do you think it´s viable for infestor as unique AA defence ?
Yeah, you should always have some hydras as well.
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Artosis
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On October 07 2010 21:55 DownMaxX wrote:
Hey Artosis, couple questions.
Q1: Which P and T build(s) are you the most comfortable against, and why?
Q2: Which P and T build(s) give you the most difficulty at the moment, and why?
Q3(a): I haven't seen any void ray rushes in this rep pack yet, but I'm curious as to how you prefer to react to a (scouted) void ray opening. (b): You seem to prefer getting extra queens for spread in ZvT, but not ZvP. How do you react if you're expecting let's say a 4 gate based on your early scouting and he surprises you with a proxy void ray?
Q4: How do you feel about Zerg's scouting options pre-Overseer? Let's say you attempt to sack your 2 slow overlords to see his tech against a 1-base P early game, and they both get sniped by a few stalkers. Let's say this example is on Metalopolis on close ground-distance positions. How would you play in the dark in this scenario?
Q5: Do you currently use Brood Lords in any scenario, or are Ultralisks always your late game choice?
Q1. I'm comfortable vs bio builds and warpgate allins mostly. Bio builds because everyone is terrible at them right now (much easier to be effective with mech units), and warpgate allins because I'm used to playing vs them a lot.
Q2. Colossus timing pushes are ridiculous, because they are ridiculously hard to stop. Vs terran I'm not sure exactly, probably fast reactor hellions, most of these maps its ridiculous to try to hold vs those, especially when you open with a safe build, like speed before expand.
Q3. I never, ever, ever lose to void ray. Maybe twice in the past 3 months. Its terrrrrrrrrrible vs zerg. If I catch a whiff of it at all, I get hydras very fast, and additional queens. Recently, btw, I am going 3rd queen vs protoss, just a bit later than vs terran, because of the power of warpgate allins.
Q4. In the dark, you just have to do your best to defend everything. I peak everywhere I can with lings and lords, but I suicide less lords than I used to, because people are finally smart enough to keep an eye out for them.
Q5. Yeah, sometimes I use broods. I like ultras much more right now though, and they fit more inline with the current strategies i'm using a lot.
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hey Artosis:
Are you gonna shoot some more footage of the GSL qualifiers so we can see what foreigners/familiar faces are trying out? It was real swell last time.
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Artosis
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On October 07 2010 22:27 Sixes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 21:12 Artosis wrote:
[about infestors]
No, I don't think it will become standard. I played with it a lot, and its really difficult to pull off, and not as effective as I'd like my standard ZvP strategy to be. Given this I am wondering why you dislike the Korean style (roach heavy, especially roach burrow) versus protoss? Anything specific ? I have found myself always getting fast roaches (and their upgrades) against P and it seems to work very nicely and get me into the mid game much better than a muta opener. Just wondering what the issues are with it at a higher level.
Roaches are nice, and infact needed, dont get me wrong, its just that a really solid protoss with FF/Stalkers/Immortals shouldnt ever be scared of a pure roach army, buurrow or not.
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Artosis
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On October 07 2010 23:14 Overswarm wrote:What is this baneling build you're mentioning? I'm at work and cannot watch replays.
Just standard 14gas 13pool.
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Artosis
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On October 08 2010 05:19 Morik wrote:
I haven't had a chance to watch the pack yet--does it contain the standard bling opening in zvz?
If not (or even if so), is it written down anywhere I can go look at it?
I couldn't find a non-all-in baneline build on liquipedia...
Thanks!
9 lord
14 gas
13 pool
15 lord
stop drones
queen/speed/lings when pool pops.
baneling nest when 50 gas
then you just do what you can, defend what you can, add a few drones here and there. this is the learning part, where you find out what is doable in zvz.
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Artosis
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On October 08 2010 06:21 Subliminimalist wrote:
Thanks for the pack. I'm learning a lot as I work through them.
Question: You wait until after then 10th drone to scout. I always thought the 10th drone was the standard scout because any later would risk running into a wall or missing signs of early aggression. Are you taking a conscious risk by scouting later, or do you believe that it is safe to wait, or do you simply not run into a lot of quick aggression in your matches?
as you get really good, you will learn how to spot aggression. little things tip me off and give me a lot more information than they do for players less experienced. therefore i can scout later.
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Artosis
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On October 08 2010 07:32 EonShiKeno wrote:
Thx for the replays! I play mostly Zerg in Ladder, mid Diamond, and I always seem to be fending off harass when I go 14 pool 13 gas, and espically when I FE. I know you don't like to do a quick rush build, but what are you opinions on a 7 pool using 6 lings to harass and then start drone pumping after that and maybe transistion into hydra or roaches for a follow up push? This question only concerns ZvP in my case. I am trying to work out a nice build order leading up to a strong mid game push that allows for early pressure.
Thanks,
if they go 10 gate in a wallable position, its insta loss. i dont suggest ridiculous builds like 7 pool, unless you are playing at a ridiculously high level, like fruitdealer. then it can be tricky and throw off an opponent you know a lot about, who also knows a lot about you.
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Artosis
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On October 08 2010 08:25 seaofsaturn wrote:
hey Artosis:
Are you gonna shoot some more footage of the GSL qualifiers so we can see what foreigners/familiar faces are trying out? It was real swell last time.
ofcourse! cant wait :D
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Oh wow I was worried he was going to lose the ZvZ on Metalopolis and Artosis moves out and crushes him easily. I'm sorry for my lack of faith .
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Ah Artosis. We have a very similiar style. I look forward to comparing our changes of ZvP since we seem to use similar strategies but develope them in opposite directions. best of luck in qualifiers if you are playing again, and keep up the videos they are great.
Keep up the replay packs they help alot of people, and allow me to watch korean ladder games 2nd hand :D. Try using banelings more in ZvP, i've been playing with them alot and they are helping a ton. mainly as a counter and harrassment tool.
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Q1: Artosis, I'm a 1200 diamond player and I'm in a clan right now who is going to have active practice games and scrims. My goal is to be good for my clan and for myself without sacrificing too much of my life. I've noticed that the way I've gotten better consistently is to focus on basic execution as well as basic mechanics. Even recently, as I started to focus on builds I started to see a decline in the rate I improve.
How do you know when to stop focusing so much on the basics and refining mechanics? it seems like Idra's approach the the game is to focus very little on builds and to just be ridiculously sick at the mechanics. Is this what a player should focus on until the top 200 list?
Q2: What do you think of the roach buff for next patch, specifically in the case of ZvP (effects vs terran are obvious)?
P.S. People like you who do these help questions and content stuff makes this game and community worth being a part of. If you ever play on NA server and are in the mood to absolutely school a scrub let me know eh?
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Artosis
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On October 08 2010 10:26 H0bgawblin wrote:
Q1: Artosis, I'm a 1200 diamond player and I'm in a clan right now who is going to have active practice games and scrims. My goal is to be good for my clan and for myself without sacrificing too much of my life. I've noticed that the way I've gotten better consistently is to focus on basic execution as well as basic mechanics. Even recently, as I started to focus on builds I started to see a decline in the rate I improve.
How do you know when to stop focusing so much on the basics and refining mechanics? it seems like Idra's approach the the game is to focus very little on builds and to just be ridiculously sick at the mechanics. Is this what a player should focus on until the top 200 list?
Q2: What do you think of the roach buff for next patch, specifically in the case of ZvP (effects vs terran are obvious)?
P.S. People like you who do these help questions and content stuff makes this game and community worth being a part of. If you ever play on NA server and are in the mood to absolutely school a scrub let me know eh?
Q1. Focus on economy based RTS basics. Everyone sucks at these. Most valuable thing you can ever learn in sc.
Q2. Its a really good idea in theory, I can't wait to try it in practice. Roaches just arent good enough right now.
sry i dont play us server, ridiculous latency from korea.
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Hey Artosis do you think that increasing Roaches range, like blizzard announced they would, will change alot of the way all matchups play out?
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Been waiting for this
Thanks Artosis
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Artosis, you obviously love spine crawlers against heavy gateway units early. Are you doing this because it's the only way, or merely the best way? I've been trying for weeks with 1 spine plus units, and I can't hold with either a ling or roach based defense. ~1500 D.
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Artosis
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On October 08 2010 11:26 ProperOne wrote:
Hey Artosis do you think that increasing Roaches range, like blizzard announced they would, will change alot of the way all matchups play out?
ZvT, no. ZvP, maybe. ZvZ, not really sure.
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On October 08 2010 11:52 Fistdantilus wrote:
Artosis, you obviously love spine crawlers against heavy gateway units early. Are you doing this because it's the only way, or merely the best way? I've been trying for weeks with 1 spine plus units, and I can't hold with either a ling or roach based defense. ~1500 D.
im not artosis.... but i havent lost to a 4 gate since i started building 4 spines at my nat. either your units are going to tank for the spines or vice versa. spines are essential imo zvp.
i think realistically spines are just a minor speedbump in the zerg macro machine. what zerg doesnt float on minerals at some point?
one other thing to keep in mind is that spines effectiveness seems to increase exponentially the more u have as well. 3 minimum, 4+ to be safe.
im no pro but i have fended off many, many 4 gates.
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Bit OT but since someone mentioned it, definitely glad to hear you'll still be doing the qualifier videos. Really enjoy & appreciate them a lot.
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Not really a zerg question, but what is the strongest build (in your opinion, obviously) that you have encountered ZvP, all-around?
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Artosis
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On October 08 2010 11:52 Fistdantilus wrote:
Artosis, you obviously love spine crawlers against heavy gateway units early. Are you doing this because it's the only way, or merely the best way? I've been trying for weeks with 1 spine plus units, and I can't hold with either a ling or roach based defense. ~1500 D.
I honestly don't know if there is a best way yet. I don't always do it, but sometimes I prefer to on a map with a small choke, like Lost Temple or Steppes of War.
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Artosis
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On October 08 2010 13:05 kzn wrote:
Not really a zerg question, but what is the strongest build (in your opinion, obviously) that you have encountered ZvP, all-around?
Fast expansion into warpgate pressure (see Lotze vs IdrA on Blistering Sands, minus the part where Lotze wastes his army.) and also random Colossus pushes are ridiculously hard to stop.
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On October 08 2010 14:03 Artosis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 13:05 kzn wrote:
Not really a zerg question, but what is the strongest build (in your opinion, obviously) that you have encountered ZvP, all-around? Fast expansion into warpgate pressure (see Lotze vs IdrA on Blistering Sands, minus the part where Lotze wastes his army.) and also random Colossus pushes are ridiculously hard to stop.
Do you have much of an opinion on the various "fast" expos? i.e. fast forge exp vs 1/2wg sentry expo vs 3wg expo?
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With all of the 1.2 patch notes, do you think we will see a lot of spine crawler play after feing like in BW with a queen at the ramp to block if he goes hellions? I mean, can reapers be viable at all that early?
Q2: I just watched the idra vs tarson match where upon seeing the mech play on xel'naga caverns, idra elected to go mass mutas. In your previous thread you discussed mass roaches being a viable solution to a two base terran push. However, if upon seeing tanks in the mix of units, Is mass muta a viable solution even if he has a splash of marines? Or is mass muta simply the answer to mass mech and not mech/bio.
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Artosis
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On October 08 2010 14:32 kzn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 14:03 Artosis wrote:On October 08 2010 13:05 kzn wrote:
Not really a zerg question, but what is the strongest build (in your opinion, obviously) that you have encountered ZvP, all-around? Fast expansion into warpgate pressure (see Lotze vs IdrA on Blistering Sands, minus the part where Lotze wastes his army.) and also random Colossus pushes are ridiculously hard to stop. Do you have much of an opinion on the various "fast" expos? i.e. fast forge exp vs 1/2wg sentry expo vs 3wg expo?
The best fast expansion is warp=>expand=>warp gate pressure. its actually so unfair lol hopefully the roach buff will make it easier to deal with that.
all fast expos as p are pretty good, but really that one's the best.
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Artosis
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On October 08 2010 14:56 H0bgawblin wrote:
With all of the 1.2 patch notes, do you think we will see a lot of spine crawler play after feing like in BW with a queen at the ramp to block if he goes hellions? I mean, can reapers be viable at all that early?
Q2: I just watched the idra vs tarson match where upon seeing the mech play on xel'naga caverns, idra elected to go mass mutas. In your previous thread you discussed mass roaches being a viable solution to a two base terran push. However, if upon seeing tanks in the mix of units, Is mass muta a viable solution even if he has a splash of marines? Or is mass muta simply the answer to mass mech and not mech/bio.
I don't know if they will be useful still or not. I think at first tehy will be 100% neglected, and then in a few months when no one remembers the reaper, they will make some sort of comeback, even if not as big as they were before.
Will we go back to spine/queen? I don't really know atm. I personally don't want to play like that, I hate it vs terran. But that might be because of the reaper. Hard to seperate the reaper from terran at this point in my mind.
Q2. Mutas aren't really the counter to anything. They are somehting a player can outplay his opponent with. The reason IdrA used mutas in that game was because that morning we found out about the magic box vs thor stuff. No top players knew/saw/played vs that yet, so it was safe to assume Tarson would use just thors, not thor/marine. Roaches are still, atm, the best choice to combat a 2 base mech.
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Artosis, after watching 4 or 5 of your ZvZs I noticed you didn't send out a scout (besides Ovie obviously) even when the maps usually warrant one. I also noticed you tended not to scout a lot mid game too, and sometimes went near-blind on your unit comp. Why exactly is this? Not trying to be critical just trying to understand =P
Also, love your infestor play in ZvZ.
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seems like you're just posting games that you win, how fun is that?
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Artosis
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On October 08 2010 15:15 grinTOR wrote:
Artosis, after watching 4 or 5 of your ZvZs I noticed you didn't send out a scout (besides Ovie obviously) even when the maps usually warrant one. I also noticed you tended not to scout a lot mid game too, and sometimes went near-blind on your unit comp. Why exactly is this? Not trying to be critical just trying to understand =P
Also, love your infestor play in ZvZ.
Don't need to scout with the baneling opening. As for blindly making units, yeah I do that a lot in ZvZ. Nothing beats Roach/Hydra/Infestor, and I don't wanna lose ovies to mutas/hydras, so I skimp on scouting a bit. realistically I should poke and prod with a couple speedlings more.
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Artosis
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On October 08 2010 15:55 Gene(S)is wrote:
seems like you're just posting games that you win, how fun is that?
Thanks for bringing this up, Gene(S)is. If you weren't a retard, you would have read my post and put 2+2 together. I have been discing lately, and it dropped my ladder score. I have 3 types of games right now as i climb back up.
1. Wins - you see most of them here. I don't post ridiculous games that are over in a couple minutes.
2. Disconnects - still disconnecting in 1/5th of my games.
3. Losses - I think I lost a total of 2 games out of the last 30 or so. Didn't find the pylon, leave as soon as I see 5 zealots and a sentry at my hatch while I have 2 zerglings.
Thanks for being a jackass though! Enjoy your time on the forums!
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On October 08 2010 03:20 dj_lil_sloan wrote:
Thanks for the replay packs dude!
Q1: Could you elaborate on why you don't like the +1 lings in ZvP? I found some success with it against the increasingly common phoenixes -> force hydra -> stomp with collosus builds.
Q2: Is there a reason you don't hatch first more often? At 1200 diamond I've found I can defend it pretty much everytime vs toss/terran.
Just bumping my questions... it looks like you may have missed them. If there is a reason you didn't answer, my apologies!
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Wow Artosis, the ZvZ replays in your 2nd replay pack have totally changed my outlook on ZvZ... in almost every one of those games I thought you were behind, then you pull off a few magic fungal growths and BAM game over! especially the one on metal where you're opponet was on 3 base to your 2 and he had like 25 hydras when you attacked, yet somehow you made out with minimal losses. also the game on xel naga where your opponet nydus'd to the front of your base and got his expo up way sooner, i really thought you were gonna lose that but you fungal OWNED him so hard.... it was insane watching it to me because ZvZ is probably my best matchup right now (1400D) and i pretty much always just win by mass muta/ling/bling. this strat seems awesome, cant wait to play with it!
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oh yeah, just wanted to mention that in one or two of the ZvP's that i watched, you had one/multiple observers sitting in your base for the entire game. just something for you to think about/clean up before the GSL!
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I was wondering how exactly does droning/making units translate into ZvZ ?
I find it complitly different compared to ZvP/T. Since both you and your opponent can slam out ~10 drones/20 lings instantly and complitly change the game if done at the wrong time.
You managed to win a few of those games even though it got to mid-game and your opponents were ahead of you in drones, just because of nice droning-timing. (i guess)
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 08 2010 16:50 dj_lil_sloan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 03:20 dj_lil_sloan wrote:
Thanks for the replay packs dude!
Q1: Could you elaborate on why you don't like the +1 lings in ZvP? I found some success with it against the increasingly common phoenixes -> force hydra -> stomp with collosus builds.
Q2: Is there a reason you don't hatch first more often? At 1200 diamond I've found I can defend it pretty much everytime vs toss/terran. Just bumping my questions... it looks like you may have missed them. If there is a reason you didn't answer, my apologies!
oops!
Q1. Anyone who opens stargate tech, I always go mass speedling vs. They will be unit-light, especially light on sentries. The +1 build he was talking about, was rushing to +1 and using pure lings to hold stuff off. Its just terrible. FF owns it too hard.
Q2. I do 14 hatch sometimes and 15 hatch sometimes. The problem is, they are both gamble builds. If someone proxies you, you will lose unless he screws up ridiculously much.
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Hey Artosis!
Big fan, and thanks for the replay packs!
Q1: What do you find is the best way to deal with 3warpgate into expand and 4warpgate all-in?
I like to go mass muta/ling in ZvP, but I can't start droning/teching until I'm safe from this early pressure. What do you prefer to keep yourself alive? Mass spinecrawlers, mass speedlings, fast roach, or a combo of everything? Mass lings seem to hurt my drone count quite a bit. I've attempted 6 Spines + lings, but this still seems to get beat, especially when P goes all-in. I just can't start my muta tech until I have a good drone count, which is never the case when I'm constantly pumping speedlings to hold off the Protoss pressure. My biggest issue with ZvP right now is surviving the first 8 minutes.
Q2: As stated previously, I like to go muta/ling in ZvP; harassing the P constantly with mutas while I try to reach critical mass with them, meanwhile expanding/droning/getting upgrades. I always opt for this build when protoss FE's. However, I've encountered P's that like to go FE into 2 stargate. I can't break their wall-off with mass lings, and phoenixes are always out in large enough numbers to shut down my initial mutas. Now I'm in trouble. My mutas can't harass, overlords/drones are being picked off, and I'm forced to completely switch my tech to hydras. However, at this point I always feel too far behind; my third is constantly harassed by the ~10 phoenixes, and all my minerals are going into overlords/new queens/new drones. Protoss then pushes out once he has a couple of colossi and steamrolls me, as I never have enough roach/hydra in time. What do I do?
Q3: How do I stop a Protoss 200/200 push? Usually I contain them on their 2 bases while massing muta/ling and getting upgrades. They sit on their asses until they reach max; at this point they push out with 3-4 colossi, a couple immortals and a bunch of zealots/stalkers; basically a mix of everything. By this point I've been maxed myself on pure muta/ling for a few minutes, just waiting for them to push. I'm also at 5 base by this point. The issue is, my muta/ling army gets steam rolled, even if my lings are 2-2 and my mutas are 2-1, I've had my army decimated. The Protoss almost feels like he's at critical mass; there's nothing I can do to stop this army. This is especially frustrating because I know if I stop it the game is pretty much over and I win. Do I stop production at 150ish supply and get ultras?
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Thanks artosis for this.... going to be pretty helpful witha lot of zergs and thanks for asking all the questions . my question is a little off topic
Whats your favorite Korean Food? Im so jealous you get to live in korea and see the cute girls and eat food with side dishes that are yummy! I just made some fish cake sides today !
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Artosis,
First off great job casting the GSL tourny! Really made the experience that much more enjoyable.
1) Whats the deciding factor for you on whether you defend your natural vs T with a couple roaches or two well placed spine crawlers?
I personally am doing the spine crawler route with speedlings vs both reapers and spines...transitioning to roaches if i see him going all out reapers (a lot more rare lately I find).
2) If it he goes fast factory for hellions and you elect for 2 spine crawlers and a queen ramp block to combat..and then you see him going mass barracks for MMM - are roaches still a good idea with him now having a decent amount of maruaders?
Usually when I see this i'm tossing down a baneling nest and massing crazy speedlings to try and hold it off until i can get muta into play (though after watching your replays I'm thinking of going infestor first vs bio) Thoughts on that?
Greatly appreciated!
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On October 08 2010 18:00 FREEloss_ca wrote:
Q2: As stated previously, I like to go muta/ling in ZvP; harassing the P constantly with mutas while I try to reach critical mass with them, meanwhile expanding/droning/getting upgrades. I always opt for this build when protoss FE's. However, I've encountered P's that like to go FE into 2 stargate. I can't break their wall-off with mass lings, and phoenixes are always out in large enough numbers to shut down my initial mutas. Now I'm in trouble. My mutas can't harass, overlords/drones are being picked off, and I'm forced to completely switch my tech to hydras. However, at this point I always feel too far behind; my third is constantly harassed by the ~10 phoenixes, and all my minerals are going into overlords/new queens/new drones. Protoss then pushes out once he has a couple of colossi and steamrolls me, as I never have enough roach/hydra in time. What do I do?
I'm obviously not Artosis, but take my thoughts on this question for what they're worth as a 1300 zerg.
I too like to go 2nd/3rd expo+speedling into mutas vs a FE protoss, and when I see they've gone for 2 stargate pheonix I make my first round of larva into corruptors and just stalk his pheonix with them as much as I can while producing mutas normally. I then use the mutas as I usually would but i bring the corruptors along to prevent him from using pheonix shoot/scoot to rip apart the mutas. Worst case scenerio is you'll go even losses muta/pheonix with him, and he cant keep up with your production. If he goes voids I feel its a GG as they get torn apart by mutas..if he goes stalks that can delay you but also give you map control like crazy since if he moves out stalker heavy your lings will do a great job while your mutas chip in.
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then you just do what you can, defend what you can, add a few drones here and there. this is the learning part, where you find out what is doable in zvz.
Can you briefly describe your learning experience in zvz? what major realizations did you come to? what subtle timings have you discovered when opening ling bling?
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Artosis has the sexiest creep spread ever. It always makes me sad when some dumb terran scans the tumors and destroys all his hard work.
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You said that you had some trouble with your connection. With that said, is most of your practice done with practice partners? your with TL and OGS right now right? How do you feel about mass ladder vs practice partners? Both necessary or ladder is because you can't always practice vs your partners?
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Artosis, I know I've said this already, but I don't think it can really be said enough.
Thanks thanks thanks for posting these rep-packs and answering our questions. It's so awesome to have a quality gamer like yourself teaching and helping other players learn to play better, and it makes us appreciate what you do even more, both as a teacher and as a competitor.
Best of luck in the GSL qualifiers!
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Artosis kicks ass ^^.
Loved the replay pack!
Can't wait for more!
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On October 08 2010 16:00 Artosis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 15:55 Gene(S)is wrote:
seems like you're just posting games that you win, how fun is that? Thanks for bringing this up, Gene(S)is. If you weren't a retard, you would have read my post and put 2+2 together. I have been discing lately, and it dropped my ladder score. I have 3 types of games right now as i climb back up. 1. Wins - you see most of them here. I don't post ridiculous games that are over in a couple minutes. 2. Disconnects - still disconnecting in 1/5th of my games. 3. Losses - I think I lost a total of 2 games out of the last 30 or so. Didn't find the pylon, leave as soon as I see 5 zealots and a sentry at my hatch while I have 2 zerglings. Thanks for being a jackass though! Enjoy your time on the forums!
LOL!
This is seriously in contention for best post of the thread, and that quote is totally going into my sig.
Oh yeah, and you are totally awesome for doing this, and for being so active about answering questions. Much <3
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Hello.
I'm new to starcrft 2 and zerg. I have watched Artosis rep pack and noticed that he produced units in larvas simultaneously and units pop-out not one by one but at the same time from hatchery.
Is there any trick or you must order units very fast? And how to switch between larvas?
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On October 09 2010 07:47 zhendos wrote:
Hello.
I'm new to starcrft 2 and zerg. I have watched Artosis rep pack and noticed that he produced units in larvas simultaneously and units pop-out not one by one but at the same time from hatchery.
Is there any trick or you must order units very fast? And how to switch between larvas?
You have to hold a key for 1-2 seconds then all the selected larvae morph at the same time. For example when you're waiting for your ovie to pop just hit s + hold d and your all your larvae will morph into drones instantly.
EDIT : Oh and that works for all races & actions yo would want to queue.
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Butcherski, thank you very much =)
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 08 2010 17:12 Gotmog wrote:
I was wondering how exactly does droning/making units translate into ZvZ ?
I find it complitly different compared to ZvP/T. Since both you and your opponent can slam out ~10 drones/20 lings instantly and complitly change the game if done at the wrong time.
You managed to win a few of those games even though it got to mid-game and your opponents were ahead of you in drones, just because of nice droning-timing. (i guess)
Well, the thing is, banes, counters, and infestors all make it hard to attack your opponent. Therefore, u get more dromes than u would otherwise.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 08 2010 18:00 FREEloss_ca wrote:
Hey Artosis!
Big fan, and thanks for the replay packs!
Q1: What do you find is the best way to deal with 3warpgate into expand and 4warpgate all-in?
I like to go mass muta/ling in ZvP, but I can't start droning/teching until I'm safe from this early pressure. What do you prefer to keep yourself alive? Mass spinecrawlers, mass speedlings, fast roach, or a combo of everything? Mass lings seem to hurt my drone count quite a bit. I've attempted 6 Spines + lings, but this still seems to get beat, especially when P goes all-in. I just can't start my muta tech until I have a good drone count, which is never the case when I'm constantly pumping speedlings to hold off the Protoss pressure. My biggest issue with ZvP right now is surviving the first 8 minutes.
Q2: As stated previously, I like to go muta/ling in ZvP; harassing the P constantly with mutas while I try to reach critical mass with them, meanwhile expanding/droning/getting upgrades. I always opt for this build when protoss FE's. However, I've encountered P's that like to go FE into 2 stargate. I can't break their wall-off with mass lings, and phoenixes are always out in large enough numbers to shut down my initial mutas. Now I'm in trouble. My mutas can't harass, overlords/drones are being picked off, and I'm forced to completely switch my tech to hydras. However, at this point I always feel too far behind; my third is constantly harassed by the ~10 phoenixes, and all my minerals are going into overlords/new queens/new drones. Protoss then pushes out once he has a couple of colossi and steamrolls me, as I never have enough roach/hydra in time. What do I do?
Q3: How do I stop a Protoss 200/200 push? Usually I contain them on their 2 bases while massing muta/ling and getting upgrades. They sit on their asses until they reach max; at this point they push out with 3-4 colossi, a couple immortals and a bunch of zealots/stalkers; basically a mix of everything. By this point I've been maxed myself on pure muta/ling for a few minutes, just waiting for them to push. I'm also at 5 base by this point. The issue is, my muta/ling army gets steam rolled, even if my lings are 2-2 and my mutas are 2-1, I've had my army decimated. The Protoss almost feels like he's at critical mass; there's nothing I can do to stop this army. This is especially frustrating because I know if I stop it the game is pretty much over and I win. Do I stop production at 150ish supply and get ultras?
Q1. Totally different questions. 3 warp expois a normal build, so u dont 'deal' with it. 4 warp allin is best killed with ling hydra and low drones.
Q2. U can either add in corrupters or switch to infestor and rush to ultras.
Q3. Maxed muta ling beats maxed p easily, just make sure most of ur supply is mutas. U should have 0 gas. Counter his base for pylons and core before u engage.
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Artosis, Thanks again for the second replay pack I hope we get to see more.
Q1- normally I go Roach/sling into mass mutas vs protoss Im not sure if this is the best but its the only way I can snipe collosus. What is your thought process behind getting the infestors? is it designed to fend off 4gates for an early tech to Ultra?
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Hey Artosis,
Most questions I had were actually answered through these questions already, good questions and thanks for the answers ! I do hope to see a pack 3 at some point in time when you get a chance. I know GSL is coming up, so I'm not expecting it any time soon. Not sure if you've gone to the prelims or not, but I wish you the best of luck.
My main question is for your ZvZ. You advise ling/bane builds to get better. I have difficulty with ling/bane though and believe it to be a fundamental control error on my part. I can defend with the build well, but any offense starts to degrade quickly as I try to position better. I've got the APM, but how do you control group and micro when you're on the offense ? Sorry for the vague question, not sure how to word it better.
You mention that ultras work better with your current strategies rather than brood lords.. When would brood lords be more viable than ultras in either a general or specific sense ? I notice in a ZvP metalopolis game that you use both. I know BL usually are great at breaking entrenched positions. Did you feel that he entrenched himself or is there another reason ?
BTW, I expect to see zerg win rate skyrocket specifically because of you and this thread !
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Just to ask directly, for someone who advocated the double pylon cannon tester walloff on the State of the game podcast you dont seem to overly committ to blindly defending an attempt at such an opening similar to fruitdealer in that you have no drone on patrol on the bottom of your ramp.
Did something happen that made you less intimidated by the opening or did you find an efficient way to deal with it that does not involve stopping it before it happens?
after having watched all your games i can definately see that there is room for improvement in my own style and these replays definately have alot of strong infestor play.
Would you care to comment on the nydusworm into roach spinecrawler contain that you experienced?.
Do you think it holds any validity as an opening if the transition is into something more solid than mutalisks?
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What do you think when you see a expo go down in a game? I understand it depends A LOT but bare with me ;o
For example, expanding right before you attack is a common advice and considered strong. If you scout an exp coming up do you sometimes start preparing for being attacked? I've found myself collecting my shit in a clump getting ready to move out and then he hits me first just as I let go of my good unit placement.
When you see an expo go up that you want to bring down do you think using the in game clock to time the attack is something useful? When do you want to hit it?
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On October 08 2010 14:03 Artosis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 13:05 kzn wrote:
Not really a zerg question, but what is the strongest build (in your opinion, obviously) that you have encountered ZvP, all-around? Fast expansion into warpgate pressure (see Lotze vs IdrA on Blistering Sands, minus the part where Lotze wastes his army.) and also random Colossus pushes are ridiculously hard to stop.
Which game is it ? Do you have a rep link or a vod link please ?
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These are more general questions, I'll get to the replays here soon
Q1) How much will the upcoming 1.2 patch affect you're current playstyle?
With roaches getting bigger range and infesters locking blink stalkers, ZvP will be a completely new monster.
This is my theory-
with both roaches and FG getting buff, neural parasite will indirectly become more powerful in the long run. Why? All of sudden mass roaches is a problem for Toss players, and they'll soon be needing to get more immortals then collosus. Because of that, mind controlling immorts will become crucial to do.
Can we agree that getting NP off on a immort is more manageable then getting it off on a thermal lancing colo lol?
Q2) What makes you choose between BL's and Ultras?
Earlier in the thread, you said that getting corrupters to deal with colos leaves you with weaker counterattack possibilities, is it viable to try and tech those corrupters into BLs?
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 08 2010 18:29 adeezy wrote:
Thanks artosis for this.... going to be pretty helpful witha lot of zergs and thanks for asking all the questions . my question is a little off topic
Whats your favorite Korean Food? Im so jealous you get to live in korea and see the cute girls and eat food with side dishes that are yummy! I just made some fish cake sides today !
soondooboo chigay obviously.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 08 2010 22:51 cyrusdm wrote:
Artosis,
First off great job casting the GSL tourny! Really made the experience that much more enjoyable.
1) Whats the deciding factor for you on whether you defend your natural vs T with a couple roaches or two well placed spine crawlers?
I personally am doing the spine crawler route with speedlings vs both reapers and spines...transitioning to roaches if i see him going all out reapers (a lot more rare lately I find).
2) If it he goes fast factory for hellions and you elect for 2 spine crawlers and a queen ramp block to combat..and then you see him going mass barracks for MMM - are roaches still a good idea with him now having a decent amount of maruaders?
Usually when I see this i'm tossing down a baneling nest and massing crazy speedlings to try and hold it off until i can get muta into play (though after watching your replays I'm thinking of going infestor first vs bio) Thoughts on that?
Greatly appreciated!
Q1. Well, in the 5 rax reaper situation, if he micros correctly, you will have to transition into a low economy speed roach from speedling. For other situations, its rare for me to defend with Roaches. They cost so much and just aren't useful vs terran after that early defense, so I'll normally use speedling/spine crawler.
Q2. No, Roaches aren't a good idea. If its hellion=>1 base marine marauder, you should get to speed banes as soon as possible. Infestor vs 1 base bio is probably going to be too slow, ling/bane will be much faster and safer. vs expansion bio, infestor can be great.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 08 2010 23:25 Tenda wrote:Show nested quote +then you just do what you can, defend what you can, add a few drones here and there. this is the learning part, where you find out what is doable in zvz. Can you briefly describe your learning experience in zvz? what major realizations did you come to? what subtle timings have you discovered when opening ling bling?
Its hard to explain I guess...
Going ling/bane and really mastering the build will teach a lot about whats possible in the matchup. The baneling changes the matchup drastically, and you need to know in which ways it does. Things like banelings vs roaches, sneaking drones in, using spine crawlers defensively vs lings and banes, creep spreading....the list goes on and on. You can learn just so much from the opening. Another one that just came to mind is how to hold map dominance with a group of lings while droning and then transitioning into roach. its all really valuable stuff to learn, and it starts at understanding how to ling/bane.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 09 2010 01:27 H0bgawblin wrote:
You said that you had some trouble with your connection. With that said, is most of your practice done with practice partners? your with TL and OGS right now right? How do you feel about mass ladder vs practice partners? Both necessary or ladder is because you can't always practice vs your partners?
I'm only laddering atm. at top levels, practice partners should consume the majority of your practice time. Ladder is good for some things; finding new cheeses to defend, tightening build orders vs random opponents, etc. Really though, practice partners are more important. You just have to be careful you aren't playing to counter them, and instead playing correctly, not taking into account how they play.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 09 2010 09:59 Eazypeezy wrote:
Artosis, Thanks again for the second replay pack I hope we get to see more.
Q1- normally I go Roach/sling into mass mutas vs protoss Im not sure if this is the best but its the only way I can snipe collosus. What is your thought process behind getting the infestors? is it designed to fend off 4gates for an early tech to Ultra?
Your strat is pretty good, I've been using that some recently as well. It has holes though, as do all ZvP strats atm. The infestor build I've made to try and slow protoss down, with the main goal being to kill off the sentries with fungals before engaging.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 09 2010 13:15 Kuroiryu wrote:
Hey Artosis,
Most questions I had were actually answered through these questions already, good questions and thanks for the answers ! I do hope to see a pack 3 at some point in time when you get a chance. I know GSL is coming up, so I'm not expecting it any time soon. Not sure if you've gone to the prelims or not, but I wish you the best of luck.
My main question is for your ZvZ. You advise ling/bane builds to get better. I have difficulty with ling/bane though and believe it to be a fundamental control error on my part. I can defend with the build well, but any offense starts to degrade quickly as I try to position better. I've got the APM, but how do you control group and micro when you're on the offense ? Sorry for the vague question, not sure how to word it better.
You mention that ultras work better with your current strategies rather than brood lords.. When would brood lords be more viable than ultras in either a general or specific sense ? I notice in a ZvP metalopolis game that you use both. I know BL usually are great at breaking entrenched positions. Did you feel that he entrenched himself or is there another reason ?
BTW, I expect to see zerg win rate skyrocket specifically because of you and this thread !
Q1. If you are attacking, spread your banelings apart by a little bit over the baneling splash damage radius. Then right click into your opponent's mineral line. Use your speedlings to kill any small groups of zerglings he sends to kill banes.
Q2. Specifically, Broods are better when they have hightemplar/immortal/zealot/stalker armies. Those kill ultras dead, and you need broods to deal with them.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 09 2010 13:35 Madkipz wrote:
Just to ask directly, for someone who advocated the double pylon cannon tester walloff on the State of the game podcast you dont seem to overly committ to blindly defending an attempt at such an opening similar to fruitdealer in that you have no drone on patrol on the bottom of your ramp.
Did something happen that made you less intimidated by the opening or did you find an efficient way to deal with it that does not involve stopping it before it happens?
after having watched all your games i can definately see that there is room for improvement in my own style and these replays definately have alot of strong infestor play.
Would you care to comment on the nydusworm into roach spinecrawler contain that you experienced?.
Do you think it holds any validity as an opening if the transition is into something more solid than mutalisks?
Q1. I don't like to blindly counter a build that's dangerous normally in my practice. I like to practice against the build a lot, to see what I can come up with. I'm actually quite good against the cannon blocks at this point, but when it matters i do tend to be more careful about blocking it from occurring.
Q2. Nah, that isn't a good build by him. I could have played better in the early game and not allowed that to happen.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 10 2010 09:52 Patriot.dlk wrote:
What do you think when you see a expo go down in a game? I understand it depends A LOT but bare with me ;o
For example, expanding right before you attack is a common advice and considered strong. If you scout an exp coming up do you sometimes start preparing for being attacked? I've found myself collecting my shit in a clump getting ready to move out and then he hits me first just as I let go of my good unit placement.
When you see an expo go up that you want to bring down do you think using the in game clock to time the attack is something useful? When do you want to hit it?
There's a lot of half-truths and misinformations going on with when its good to attack and not. Its not actually good to lay down a hatch/cc/nexus and then attack. In theory, its terrible. What is great though, is to expand at the end of an attack, or pressure and expand in the meantime.
The weakest time of a person's army in relation to their opponents, is right when the expansion finishes.
Zerg actually cannot attack people in this game, so that doesn't help a whole lot.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 10 2010 10:08 hybride wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2010 14:03 Artosis wrote:On October 08 2010 13:05 kzn wrote:
Not really a zerg question, but what is the strongest build (in your opinion, obviously) that you have encountered ZvP, all-around? Fast expansion into warpgate pressure (see Lotze vs IdrA on Blistering Sands, minus the part where Lotze wastes his army.) and also random Colossus pushes are ridiculously hard to stop. Which game is it ? Do you have a rep link or a vod link please ?
its a GSL game. check out gomtv.net
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 10 2010 10:11 Zvendetta wrote:These are more general questions, I'll get to the replays here soon Q1) How much will the upcoming 1.2 patch affect you're current playstyle? With roaches getting bigger range and infesters locking blink stalkers, ZvP will be a completely new monster. This is my theory- with both roaches and FG getting buff, neural parasite will indirectly become more powerful in the long run. Why? All of sudden mass roaches is a problem for Toss players, and they'll soon be needing to get more immortals then collosus. Because of that, mind controlling immorts will become crucial to do. Can we agree that getting NP off on a immort is more manageable then getting it off on a thermal lancing colo lol? Q2) What makes you choose between BL's and Ultras? Earlier in the thread, you said that getting corrupters to deal with colos leaves you with weaker counterattack possibilities, is it viable to try and tech those corrupters into BLs?
Q1. I'm not sure how it will change the matchup yet. The problem with what you are saying is, the Colossus still counters roaches and infestors. I think more of the changes will be things you don't see. Strategies that no longer work due to the increased roach range. (walls with 1 cannon behind them, double pylon block at bottom of ramp, etc.)
Q2. BL's are vs the Immortal/Zealot/High Templar/Stalker armies. Ultras are vs teh other stuff. No, its not viable to go BLs vs Colossus timing pushes. They will kill you far before you have them.
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Artosis you are my Starcraft god <3
Watched all Protoss and Terran games. Here are a few things I found out - that some people might want to know, like I did.
Artosis VS Terran
I worked out your average build order for 1v1 maps, 2v2 maps and overall.
The 1v1 and oveall were pritty simlar, in 2v2 you tended to expand first.
Here is Artosis's general Terran build order.
9 overlord
15 extractor
14 spawning pool
15 overlord
20 hatchery
Out of all 8 games your most popular unit composition was Zerglings/Hydralisks/Infestors.
In 2 games you went Ling Roach.
In 2 games you went MutaLing.
I did work out your percentage of pool and pop opening but it was on a white board, and I've cleaned it since, so I can't quote any information I'm afraid.
Notes
You often favored zergling speed instead of teching to a Lair to combat early harrasses.
You only placed one or two spinecrawlers on average instead of the half a dozen within Protoss games.
Artosis VS Protoss
I worked out your average build order for 1v1 maps, 2v2 maps and overall.
Here is Artosis's general Protoss build order.
9 overlord
15 spawning pool
16 hatchery
18 extractor
21 extractor
Out of all 13 games your most popular unit composition was Zerglings/Infestor/Ultralisks.
5 games consisted of Zergling/Infestor/Ultralisk.
1 game consisted of Roach/Zergling/Infestor/Ultralisk.
1 game consisted of Zergling/Infestor/Ultralisk/Broodlord.
1 games consisted of MutaLing/Ultra.
2 games consisted of MutaLing.
2 games consisted of Nydus Worms/Zerglings.
1 game consisted of Zergling/Hydra.
Overall - your build order consisted of.
15 spawning pool
15 or 16 hatchery
18 or 21 extractor
1v1- your build order consisted of.
15 spawning pool
15 hatchery
18 or 21 extractor
2v2- your build order consisted of.
15 spawning pool
16 hatchery
18 or 21 extractor
Notes
You built 4-6 spinecrawlers to defend in early game without building zerglings.
Overall Gameplay Notes
Spinecrawlers used to defend early game pushes/rushes.
Infestors used to defend against air attacks.
First queen used first 25 energy on a creep tumor instead of inject larva.
Place zerglings all over map where enemy will probably pass through, when a zergling dies and you
see a push.. Build units or spinecrawlers to defend, otherwise continue Drone production.
Abuse usefulness of Overseers changeling ability.
Overall Gameplay Build Order Notes
Continously spread creep, using first creep tumor placed down.
Use fisrt 100gas for Lair.
When Lair is complete, Infestation Pit.
When Infestation Pit is complete, infestors + infestor energy upgrade.
Continously building drones, only building zerglings when neccasery.
When Infestation Pit is complete, Hive upgrade.
When Hive is complete, Ultralisk Den.
When Ultralisk Den is complete, Ultralisks + armor upgrade.
When a decent amount of Infestors/Ultralisks and Zerglings is accomplished, attack and win.
I hope that helps some people, it sure as hell helped me. Your replays alone have improved my gameplay by so much! my creep spreading has been awesome, just from watching how well you do it.
And my scouting? god damn! If I ever lose a game in 2v2 now, its due to my scouting - nothing else.
I'd love to play with you some time I havn't got around to watching the ZvZ replays yet but I will, and when I do I will do the same thing I've done here. If people want me to post it, I will.
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Hey Artosis,
Let me start by saying thank you so much for helping out the community like this, and great work on casting the GSL. <3 the casting archon!
My questions are regarding your ZvZ, since this is my weakest matchup and the only set of reps I've watched so far from you.
Q1: How do you decide between a fast roach warren and a baneling nest? Is it map/spawn location dependant, or is it just whatever you feel like that game?
Q2: What prompts you to put down your expansion? Is it based on food count, how safe you feel, how much pressure your opponent is putting on you, when/if you get multiple queens?
Q3: What makes you choose between staying with one queen and getting multiples on one base? I *think* you only stayed 1 queen when you did a very aggressive ling/bane attack on LT, but if there's another reason do tell. 
Again, thanks so much for taking the time to help not-so-pro players get better! =)
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On October 07 2010 12:03 Artosis wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 10:58 raybasto wrote:On October 02 2010 12:38 Artosis wrote:
Q1. Well it matters the matchup. I like roaches zvz on delta quadrant. sometimes i open roaches randomly on Kulas Ravine, just because you have to be unpredictable there. I also am toying around with Korean style ZvP which is atm heavily roach based. Just kinda mixing it up, seeing how it goes.
Can you explain this Korean style of ZvP that you mentioned? I tried doing some Roach heavy play against Toss today, with extra Queens for Creep spread/Antiair and worked pretty well. What are the advantages/disadvantages of going Roach heavy and how does this style do against the US aggressive style PvZ play (4 gate, 3 gate robo, void ray cheese). Thanks What I call Korean Style is the more roach-heavy play. A lot of koreans love to get roaches early like we saw in the beta before their nerf, and use them all over the place with burrow, etc. Some hydras get mixed in, but mostly roach. I stopped playing like that lately, as I dont think its too good. Still experimenting with roaches in different ways tho.
Every time I do roach / hydra play against protoss it ends up with colossus wiping my army out hardcore, I find ling into muta / ultra works much better, but I get screwed over if the enemy goes pheonix zealot / stalker. What can I do when they go pheonix with gateway into colossus ?
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 11 2010 11:31 B34ST wrote:Artosis you are my Starcraft god <3 Watched all Protoss and Terran games. Here are a few things I found out - that some people might want to know, like I did. Artosis VS TerranI worked out your average build order for 1v1 maps, 2v2 maps and overall. The 1v1 and oveall were pritty simlar, in 2v2 you tended to expand first. Here is Artosis's general Terran build order. 9 overlord 15 extractor 14 spawning pool 15 overlord 20 hatchery Out of all 8 games your most popular unit composition was Zerglings/Hydralisks/Infestors. In 2 games you went Ling Roach. In 2 games you went MutaLing. I did work out your percentage of pool and pop opening but it was on a white board, and I've cleaned it since, so I can't quote any information I'm afraid. NotesYou often favored zergling speed instead of teching to a Lair to combat early harrasses. You only placed one or two spinecrawlers on average instead of the half a dozen within Protoss games. Artosis VS ProtossI worked out your average build order for 1v1 maps, 2v2 maps and overall. Here is Artosis's general Protoss build order. 9 overlord 15 spawning pool 16 hatchery 18 extractor 21 extractor Out of all 13 games your most popular unit composition was Zerglings/Infestor/Ultralisks. 5 games consisted of Zergling/Infestor/Ultralisk. 1 game consisted of Roach/Zergling/Infestor/Ultralisk. 1 game consisted of Zergling/Infestor/Ultralisk/Broodlord. 1 games consisted of MutaLing/Ultra. 2 games consisted of MutaLing. 2 games consisted of Nydus Worms/Zerglings. 1 game consisted of Zergling/Hydra. Overall - your build order consisted of. 15 spawning pool 15 or 16 hatchery 18 or 21 extractor 1v1- your build order consisted of. 15 spawning pool 15 hatchery 18 or 21 extractor 2v2- your build order consisted of. 15 spawning pool 16 hatchery 18 or 21 extractor NotesYou built 4-6 spinecrawlers to defend in early game without building zerglings. Overall Gameplay NotesSpinecrawlers used to defend early game pushes/rushes. Infestors used to defend against air attacks. First queen used first 25 energy on a creep tumor instead of inject larva. Place zerglings all over map where enemy will probably pass through, when a zergling dies and you see a push.. Build units or spinecrawlers to defend, otherwise continue Drone production. Abuse usefulness of Overseers changeling ability. Overall Gameplay Build Order NotesContinously spread creep, using first creep tumor placed down. Use fisrt 100gas for Lair. When Lair is complete, Infestation Pit. When Infestation Pit is complete, infestors + infestor energy upgrade. Continously building drones, only building zerglings when neccasery. When Infestation Pit is complete, Hive upgrade. When Hive is complete, Ultralisk Den. When Ultralisk Den is complete, Ultralisks + armor upgrade. When a decent amount of Infestors/Ultralisks and Zerglings is accomplished, attack and win. I hope that helps some people, it sure as hell helped me. Your replays alone have improved my gameplay by so much! my creep spreading has been awesome, just from watching how well you do it. And my scouting? god damn! If I ever lose a game in 2v2 now, its due to my scouting - nothing else. I'd love to play with you some time I havn't got around to watching the ZvZ replays yet but I will, and when I do I will do the same thing I've done here. If people want me to post it, I will.
wow...that's actually really interesting. thanks for figuring that all out. really cool looking at it like that, gives me some thought on my play in those games.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 11 2010 11:55 DarkOmen wrote:Hey Artosis, Let me start by saying thank you so much for helping out the community like this, and great work on casting the GSL. <3 the casting archon! My questions are regarding your ZvZ, since this is my weakest matchup and the only set of reps I've watched so far from you. Q1: How do you decide between a fast roach warren and a baneling nest? Is it map/spawn location dependant, or is it just whatever you feel like that game? Q2: What prompts you to put down your expansion? Is it based on food count, how safe you feel, how much pressure your opponent is putting on you, when/if you get multiple queens? Q3: What makes you choose between staying with one queen and getting multiples on one base? I *think* you only stayed 1 queen when you did a very aggressive ling/bane attack on LT, but if there's another reason do tell. Again, thanks so much for taking the time to help not-so-pro players get better! =)
Q1. Its just what I feel like doing in the game, but as a rule in important games/matches, I would probably Roach on Jungle Basin/Delta Quadrant/Shakuras Plateau more often than Bane/ling, and Bane/ling more often than not on the other maps.
Q2. Its normally how safe I feel. I have general timings, but they fluctuate depending upon what ive seen.
Q3. I decide if my economy will properly support the extra queen. things such as:
1. can i spend 150 minerals, 2 supply, and not upgrade anythign else in this hatch for a bit right now?
2. how fast do i need my creep spread in the early game this game?
3. can i put down my hatchery safely before making this queen? (i.e, how fast is he going to have speed reapers or something of the sort)
4. what build is he doing? will it allow me to drone my hatchery, or will i be defending with an empty natural?
im sure theres other stuff in there but thats all that came to mind while sitting at the comp answering this question.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 11 2010 11:57 absalom86 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2010 12:03 Artosis wrote:On October 07 2010 10:58 raybasto wrote:On October 02 2010 12:38 Artosis wrote:
Q1. Well it matters the matchup. I like roaches zvz on delta quadrant. sometimes i open roaches randomly on Kulas Ravine, just because you have to be unpredictable there. I also am toying around with Korean style ZvP which is atm heavily roach based. Just kinda mixing it up, seeing how it goes.
Can you explain this Korean style of ZvP that you mentioned? I tried doing some Roach heavy play against Toss today, with extra Queens for Creep spread/Antiair and worked pretty well. What are the advantages/disadvantages of going Roach heavy and how does this style do against the US aggressive style PvZ play (4 gate, 3 gate robo, void ray cheese). Thanks What I call Korean Style is the more roach-heavy play. A lot of koreans love to get roaches early like we saw in the beta before their nerf, and use them all over the place with burrow, etc. Some hydras get mixed in, but mostly roach. I stopped playing like that lately, as I dont think its too good. Still experimenting with roaches in different ways tho. Every time I do roach / hydra play against protoss it ends up with colossus wiping my army out hardcore, I find ling into muta / ultra works much better, but I get screwed over if the enemy goes pheonix zealot / stalker. What can I do when they go pheonix with gateway into colossus ?
If they go phoenix, you can add some corrupters, but ur decidedly in a bad spot. other options include infestor/ling=>ultra, but its really hard to pull off after a poor opening like htat.
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Hey Artosis!
I see you and a lot of other top pros not sending drone scouts in zvz on 2 player maps (maybe on 4 player maps too, but I haven't noticed it on 4 player ones). Are you not afraid of 6 pools or 10 pools for the early blings? Do you feel like you have a response to everything zerg can through out you that early if you only spot it coming with your overlord?
Also, what if they six pool, and intelligently run the lings away from overlord scout patterns like you would in BW? If you do have an answer to all these shananagins, could you please enlighten us with how to deal with each one of zvz early cheese/aggression strats?
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 11 2010 13:16 Beef Noodles wrote:
Hey Artosis!
I see you and a lot of other top pros not sending drone scouts in zvz on 2 player maps (maybe on 4 player maps too, but I haven't noticed it on 4 player ones). Are you not afraid of 6 pools or 10 pools for the early blings? Do you feel like you have a response to everything zerg can through out you that early if you only spot it coming with your overlord?
Also, what if they six pool, and intelligently run the lings away from overlord scout patterns like you would in BW? If you do have an answer to all these shananagins, could you please enlighten us with how to deal with each one of zvz early cheese/aggression strats?
my standard baneling opening stops every single cheese in time. i do die to some of them sometimes, but normally i ahve enough information to hold off whatever is coming.
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Is it just the timing of the build, or is it specific building placement, scout patterns and other things that all combine to allow you to hold it off?
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This replay pack really helped me against Protoss. Sniffing out a four gate and stopping it is really simple if you just get a shit ton of spine crawlers. : )
Artosis, I hear you're using neural parasite now against Terran and I'm eagerly awaiting that replay pack.
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Hey art, 1100 point platinum zerg here with a question about the answer you've given about ZvZ all the time.
Q1) When approached with ZvZ, people always ask you about Roaches and you always say "100%, always ALWAYS ALWAYS ZOMG ALWAYS go banelings. It will teach you the ways of the swarm".
Well, I'd be lieing if I told you I didn't use both. But since your thirty trillion times better than me, I'll ask a more straight forward question: Why on earth are banelings the ALWAYS answer in ZvZ instead of roaches? To me anyways, it seems like roaches can punish banelings really badly and force the other zerg to be speedling heavy, which if battling at chokes is a losing battle for the ling/bane zerg. I know plenty of games where I punish people at theirs or my ramp with roaches and the banelings almost become completely useless. Please go in more depth on this matter.
Q2) In ZvZ: Why would you choose to go mutalisks over hydralisks? If your opponent goes mutalisks, your hydralisks kill them, and if you go mutalisk as well, you'll only win if you have a bigger body count. I guess I just don't understand how you get punished via going roach/hydra in ZvZ.
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I'm back again but this time I bring the joys of ZvZ Artosis style.
Artosis VS Zerg
1v1 maps build order
14 Extractor
13 Spawning Pool
21 Bane nest
2v2 maps build order
14 Spawning Pool
15 Extractor
18 roach Warren
Overall Build Notes
As you can see, the bane opening was used on 1v1 maps.
Roach Warren opening on 2v2 maps.
First 100gas was used on Zergling Speed.
Queen uses fisrt 25 energy on Inject Larva.
On Average, 1 spinecrawler at hatch or ramp/choke.
Unit Compostiion
1 game you went Baneling in opening - Roach Hydra Infestor
4 games you went Roach Hydra Infestor
1 game you went Zergling Baneling
1 game you went Baneling in opening - Queen Roach Infestor
Enjoy.
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On October 12 2010 07:02 Jeffbelittle wrote:
Hey art, 1100 point platinum zerg here with a question about the answer you've given about ZvZ all the time.
Q1) When approached with ZvZ, people always ask you about Roaches and you always say "100%, always ALWAYS ALWAYS ZOMG ALWAYS go banelings. It will teach you the ways of the swarm".
Well, I'd be lieing if I told you I didn't use both. But since your thirty trillion times better than me, I'll ask a more straight forward question: Why on earth are banelings the ALWAYS answer in ZvZ instead of roaches? To me anyways, it seems like roaches can punish banelings really badly and force the other zerg to be speedling heavy, which if battling at chokes is a losing battle for the ling/bane zerg. I know plenty of games where I punish people at theirs or my ramp with roaches and the banelings almost become completely useless. Please go in more depth on this matter.
Q2) In ZvZ: Why would you choose to go mutalisks over hydralisks? If your opponent goes mutalisks, your hydralisks kill them, and if you go mutalisk as well, you'll only win if you have a bigger body count. I guess I just don't understand how you get punished via going roach/hydra in ZvZ.
Been wondering the same thing. Seems kinda ignorant to say that banelings are the only answer when you can clearly make stuff happen with roaches as well.
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as i observed artosis last replays he makes 100gas speed, 50gas baneling nest and after 15 supply zerglings which he sends directly in the enemy base. so when he sees a roach warren, he cancels banelingnest and goes for roaches aswell, if he doesnt see roach warren or baneling nest, he goes for blings.
i think when he meant always go banelings to improve ur zvz it is because the early zvz depends alot on micro and when u have a good control about ur lings/blings when ur enemy plays the same units u will ALWAYS win the game.
last week i considered zvz as my worst matchup but since i watched the last FPVODS (zvz) i won all zvzs so far by going bling (or roaches if he does) and transition into roach/infestor/hydra -> big thx artosis <3
now i try to work on my pvp; so here some questions :>
Q1: i always make some spinecrawlers at my exp and go ling/hydra to fend off the push (which EVERYONE does in high plat/low dia) and it works at least more often than it doesnt :> - but then i cant finish him off due to canons and i have trouble with the transition against 1-3 collossi ... mutas work sometimes but my ground army still dies within seconds and after i focused the colossi i still die to his ground army - i dont like corrupter because they r pretty useless after the colossi r down and even more expencive than mutas and i cant seem to win with hydra/roach since it seems that stalker sentry colossi counter them perfectly
Q2: when i play muta in zvp and the harrasment doesnt work so well due to stalker defence and canons, should i transition into other units like ultras? i tried to get alot more mutas so i can break his defence but in the end i got owned by HTs (was hard to counter since i couldnt get good map control going and it was closed posi)
edit: havent watched all zvp of this replaypack so far due lack of time
thx for the great replays again; looking forward to commented FPVODs
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Hey again Artosis, thanks for the reply to my previous questions!
I have a couple more general questions for you now: Do you, or have you ever used something like Qxc's build order tester to work out build orders?
How long/in-depth are your build orders? Do they go to a certain point, at which time you start to just play "by feel" or are your games mapped out right to the late game?
I personally find that any opening I want to employ ends abruptly at 26 food. After that, what I do depends largely on what my opponent is doing, with the exception that I'll have a very vague long-term plan, such as speedling into muta/ling into ultra, and I just tend to make drones when I feel I can get away with it, expand when it seems unlikely to die before I get it up, etc. Also, I tend to get upgrades on a whim, like when I notice my money getting high and I'm running low on larvae, for example.
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How do you deal with Tank Marine push? He'll push me right when Stim is done, and by that time they have 3-4 tanks and a bunch of Marines. I barely got my Spire up but Mutas woulda been useless since 3 50 mineral marines can pretty much take 2 Mutas if they have stim.
I had Roaches with speed upgrades and Speedlings. It was on Steppes of War.
Seems like this is pretty much the easiest push for Terrans to do that will do massive amounts of damage if not win the game outright. Tanks, even when only doing 35 damage to Lings, decimate them in a decent clump and Marines with Stim are just stupidly effective.
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On October 12 2010 07:28 Mettyman wrote:
Been wondering the same thing. Seems kinda ignorant to say that banelings are the only answer when you can clearly make stuff happen with roaches as well.
I'm not speaking for anyone, but in my experience roach openings are dominated by getting a +1 attack, expo'ing asap, and preferably cancelling the Nest before it completes. Basically, if you go Blings every ZvZ you can always change it up. It's just a good framework that is flexible, can handle cheese, and can transition to beat anything.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 11 2010 13:25 Beef Noodles wrote:
Is it just the timing of the build, or is it specific building placement, scout patterns and other things that all combine to allow you to hold it off?
Its just a combination of everything.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 12 2010 07:02 Jeffbelittle wrote:
Hey art, 1100 point platinum zerg here with a question about the answer you've given about ZvZ all the time.
Q1) When approached with ZvZ, people always ask you about Roaches and you always say "100%, always ALWAYS ALWAYS ZOMG ALWAYS go banelings. It will teach you the ways of the swarm".
Well, I'd be lieing if I told you I didn't use both. But since your thirty trillion times better than me, I'll ask a more straight forward question: Why on earth are banelings the ALWAYS answer in ZvZ instead of roaches? To me anyways, it seems like roaches can punish banelings really badly and force the other zerg to be speedling heavy, which if battling at chokes is a losing battle for the ling/bane zerg. I know plenty of games where I punish people at theirs or my ramp with roaches and the banelings almost become completely useless. Please go in more depth on this matter.
Q2) In ZvZ: Why would you choose to go mutalisks over hydralisks? If your opponent goes mutalisks, your hydralisks kill them, and if you go mutalisk as well, you'll only win if you have a bigger body count. I guess I just don't understand how you get punished via going roach/hydra in ZvZ.
Q1. For anyone learning ZvZ, its important to use the baneling opening, because it is the best and will teach you the most. The thing is, you will learn how to react to everything with the build. For instance, if you go roach and I'm making the baneling build, I actually cancel my baneling nest, drone up, and go roach with a better economy off a handful of speedlings which give me complete map control and keep you 100% in the dark. Roach play is still/will still be used from time to time, but for people learning, its a bad build to use. You can learn more about how to play roach openings by playing baneling openings, believe it or not.
Q2. You don't really get punished if you play it right. I only go muta very rarely, in rare circumstances. For example, if my opponent is all-in baneling, I will go muta. Roach/Hydra/Infestor is the best unit composition overall though.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 12 2010 07:23 B34ST wrote:
I'm back again but this time I bring the joys of ZvZ Artosis style.
Artosis VS Zerg
1v1 maps build order
14 Extractor
13 Spawning Pool
21 Bane nest
2v2 maps build order
14 Spawning Pool
15 Extractor
18 roach Warren
Overall Build Notes
As you can see, the bane opening was used on 1v1 maps.
Roach Warren opening on 2v2 maps.
First 100gas was used on Zergling Speed.
Queen uses fisrt 25 energy on Inject Larva.
On Average, 1 spinecrawler at hatch or ramp/choke.
Unit Compostiion
1 game you went Baneling in opening - Roach Hydra Infestor
4 games you went Roach Hydra Infestor
1 game you went Zergling Baneling
1 game you went Baneling in opening - Queen Roach Infestor
Enjoy.
Haha, I actually do a lot of stuff ZvZ. Thx again !
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 12 2010 07:28 Mettyman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 07:02 Jeffbelittle wrote:
Hey art, 1100 point platinum zerg here with a question about the answer you've given about ZvZ all the time.
Q1) When approached with ZvZ, people always ask you about Roaches and you always say "100%, always ALWAYS ALWAYS ZOMG ALWAYS go banelings. It will teach you the ways of the swarm".
Well, I'd be lieing if I told you I didn't use both. But since your thirty trillion times better than me, I'll ask a more straight forward question: Why on earth are banelings the ALWAYS answer in ZvZ instead of roaches? To me anyways, it seems like roaches can punish banelings really badly and force the other zerg to be speedling heavy, which if battling at chokes is a losing battle for the ling/bane zerg. I know plenty of games where I punish people at theirs or my ramp with roaches and the banelings almost become completely useless. Please go in more depth on this matter.
Q2) In ZvZ: Why would you choose to go mutalisks over hydralisks? If your opponent goes mutalisks, your hydralisks kill them, and if you go mutalisk as well, you'll only win if you have a bigger body count. I guess I just don't understand how you get punished via going roach/hydra in ZvZ. Been wondering the same thing. Seems kinda ignorant to say that banelings are the only answer when you can clearly make stuff happen with roaches as well.
Yeah, cuz that's what I said. Banelings are the only answer. Lol.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 12 2010 07:45 celdo wrote:as i observed artosis last replays he makes 100gas speed, 50gas baneling nest and after 15 supply zerglings which he sends directly in the enemy base. so when he sees a roach warren, he cancels banelingnest and goes for roaches aswell, if he doesnt see roach warren or baneling nest, he goes for blings. i think when he meant always go banelings to improve ur zvz it is because the early zvz depends alot on micro and when u have a good control about ur lings/blings when ur enemy plays the same units u will ALWAYS win the game. last week i considered zvz as my worst matchup but since i watched the last FPVODS (zvz) i won all zvzs so far by going bling (or roaches if he does) and transition into roach/infestor/hydra -> big thx artosis <3 now i try to work on my pvp; so here some questions :> Q1: i always make some spinecrawlers at my exp and go ling/hydra to fend off the push (which EVERYONE does in high plat/low dia) and it works at least more often than it doesnt :> - but then i cant finish him off due to canons and i have trouble with the transition against 1-3 collossi ... mutas work sometimes but my ground army still dies within seconds and after i focused the colossi i still die to his ground army - i dont like corrupter because they r pretty useless after the colossi r down and even more expencive than mutas and i cant seem to win with hydra/roach since it seems that stalker sentry colossi counter them perfectly Q2: when i play muta in zvp and the harrasment doesnt work so well due to stalker defence and canons, should i transition into other units like ultras? i tried to get alot more mutas so i can break his defence but in the end i got owned by HTs (was hard to counter since i couldnt get good map control going and it was closed posi) edit: havent watched all zvp of this replaypack so far due lack of time thx for the great replays again; looking forward to commented FPVODs
Q1. There isn't actually a question mark in here. Hmm. So I guess I'll give you a tip. Don't ever transition from Hydra to Muta. It just doesn't work. I so wish it did.
Q2. Its ok if the Muta harass isn't doing much. As long as you are expanding behind it, you will be fine. You CAN tech up to Ultras while doing it if you like, but I prefer staying Muta/Ling 8 times out of 10. When he leaves his base to finally attack you, you simply go in and kill a bunch of stuff, then fly away to defend.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 12 2010 10:14 DarkOmen wrote:
Hey again Artosis, thanks for the reply to my previous questions!
I have a couple more general questions for you now: Do you, or have you ever used something like Qxc's build order tester to work out build orders?
How long/in-depth are your build orders? Do they go to a certain point, at which time you start to just play "by feel" or are your games mapped out right to the late game?
I personally find that any opening I want to employ ends abruptly at 26 food. After that, what I do depends largely on what my opponent is doing, with the exception that I'll have a very vague long-term plan, such as speedling into muta/ling into ultra, and I just tend to make drones when I feel I can get away with it, expand when it seems unlikely to die before I get it up, etc. Also, I tend to get upgrades on a whim, like when I notice my money getting high and I'm running low on larvae, for example.
Q1. No, I never use something like that. Zerg build orders aren't very complicated on timings. Also, most of it depends on what early harassment your opponent is doing.
Q2. My build orders normally end by 30 supply. From there its feel/reaction. So many different things happen to Zerg, and without solid defenses like Sentries or Wall-ins or Bunkers, you have to just react properly. I do play with specific STRATEGIES in mind the entire time though.
yeh, exactly. your last paragraph pretty much sums it up.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 12 2010 13:57 Kaiko wrote:
How do you deal with Tank Marine push? He'll push me right when Stim is done, and by that time they have 3-4 tanks and a bunch of Marines. I barely got my Spire up but Mutas woulda been useless since 3 50 mineral marines can pretty much take 2 Mutas if they have stim.
I had Roaches with speed upgrades and Speedlings. It was on Steppes of War.
Seems like this is pretty much the easiest push for Terrans to do that will do massive amounts of damage if not win the game outright. Tanks, even when only doing 35 damage to Lings, decimate them in a decent clump and Marines with Stim are just stupidly effective.
Your strategy is flawed. You can't open up with Speed Roaches/Speedlings and go into Mutalisk. That's a bad idea. You need a more reasonable strategy. If you want to play with Mutas, skip the roaches, and get banelings with speed. If you want to play with Roaches, get banelings with speed and drops as well.
Also, Steppes of War is the worst map for Zerg. X it off in your ladder map pool. You can't learn anything on that map except that Zerg can't play such small maps.
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Whats the most cost effective way to stop a 2 gate with 6-10 Zealots into 4 gate? If I go Speedlings, the Zealots kill me. If I go Roach, I'm so far behind that the 4 gate kills me. Thanks
EDIT: And when my opponent is doing this strategy, when is the best time to take my Natural?
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Artosis what do you feel is the best way to handle a terran pure mech army with maybe a few rines?
I see in your replay on scrap station you held off with infestor ling until you eventually go ultralisk. I see there a huge timing window in there that your opponent could of taken advantage of and done alot of damage with his force.Which leave me to think that there has to be a better way and seeing as how hydras are pretty shitty vs pure mech do you think maybe a roach/infester with some burrow play mix could do well against pure mech ?
Thanks and sorry for the pretty long question.
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Hey artosis, i really want to make love to you. Cant wait for the next one!
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 13 2010 09:28 raybasto wrote:
Whats the most cost effective way to stop a 2 gate with 6-10 Zealots into 4 gate? If I go Speedlings, the Zealots kill me. If I go Roach, I'm so far behind that the 4 gate kills me. Thanks
EDIT: And when my opponent is doing this strategy, when is the best time to take my Natural?
U should take ur natural by 20 supply. Just make lings nonstop. If he over produces zealots that much u can go banes, or pure speedling of queen and 2 hatch.
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 13 2010 13:23 ProperOne wrote:
Artosis what do you feel is the best way to handle a terran pure mech army with maybe a few rines?
I see in your replay on scrap station you held off with infestor ling until you eventually go ultralisk. I see there a huge timing window in there that your opponent could of taken advantage of and done alot of damage with his force.Which leave me to think that there has to be a better way and seeing as how hydras are pretty shitty vs pure mech do you think maybe a roach/infester with some burrow play mix could do well against pure mech ?
Thanks and sorry for the pretty long question.
I like king infestor intl ultra, but super mass roach with drops into ultra or brood is good as well.
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On October 13 2010 13:23 ProperOne wrote:
Artosis what do you feel is the best way to handle a terran pure mech army with maybe a few rines?
I see in your replay on scrap station you held off with infestor ling until you eventually go ultralisk. I see there a huge timing window in there that your opponent could of taken advantage of and done alot of damage with his force.Which leave me to think that there has to be a better way and seeing as how hydras are pretty shitty vs pure mech do you think maybe a roach/infester with some burrow play mix could do well against pure mech ?
Thanks and sorry for the pretty long question. Yes, this! I just finished playing a game on scrap station with a terran who went +1 mech weapon and pushed with 2 siege, a thor, 3 hellions and some rines, is the key roach/infestor till muta? Magic boxing muta seem useless at this point as trying to 2 base that many mutas that fast can be stressful.
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Q. Could you elaborate more on why the ZvZ roach/hydra/infestor combo is the overall best?
Assuming you're against a muta build, my instant thoughts are that you're left in the dark, have very poor mobility, can't scout with overlords, can't move out with your hydras or you lose your drones/base.
Your opponent can freely expand due to map control. Keep a tab on you with overlords or xel naga towers. Among other things, if you're spreading creep out, banelings become more effective.
From my personal experience, hydras and roaches are generally bad in ZvZ. I've never actually encountered a Zerg that uses infestors yet, but if I spot an infestation pit, my first thought would be to get burrow and set up baneling traps, if I haven't already. There's just something so awesome about burrowed banelings.
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Q. Have you come across a Mass [blue flame]Hellion (10+) and Thor strat yet? I came across it once in Ladder and it destroyed me. I have had a friend do it on me a few times and have yet to beat it, even when I know it's comming and prepare before hand. My instinct was to just mass roach since it does well vs both hellions and thor, but the repairing SCV's and the speed of the hellions make it difficult to win. The push comes with 10+ Hellions and 1-3 Thors.
I haven't tried going quicker lair tech, but I can only see infestors being helpful there since Hydra melt to blue flame and Spire takes to long to build it won't be up by the time he hits me. And if I build Infestors that cuts into my roach count by a huge amount and it's a gamble if they will have the energy to fungal the SCVs.
Do you have any advice to combat against a Mass Hellion + Thor timing attack?
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Q. Artosis, you said you don't like to use Mutas in ZvZ, and you prefer Infestor, Roach, Hydra composition. Why is this, and how do you deal with the reduced mobility of using Hydras against a player who has gone Muta?
Thanks!
EDIT: Just noticed someone a few posts above asked nearly the same question. I'll just leave my question here though anyway
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^I'm not Artosis(currently 1500+ Z), but generally the problem with mutas is that one fungal growth and you lose your entire army without dealing any damage and as such, lose the game. Also, for the counterattack stuff Z can leave one or two infestors to their main along with about 2 spores and just Fungal the mutas as they come while you go ahead and kill them. Fungal also wrecks both Hydras and Roaches if they have no infestors because 1. Hydras drop in health so quickly you just cast 2 Fungals on a group and they're done and 2. Your Hydras will outrange Roaches so they can kill them without and resistance with your Hydras.
The main thing about the mutas is just psychology. Get over the fear and DO move out, you'll be surprised by the easy victories you'll get vs a Zerg without infestors.
@the post above that one, if he only pushes with 1-3 Thors I have no clue how you can lose with mass Roach. It's most likely not the composition that's the problem, you most likely just didn't drone well enough and fell behind in economy.
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On October 14 2010 00:38 Shikyo wrote:
^I'm not Artosis(currently 1500+ Z), but generally the problem with mutas is that one fungal growth and you lose your entire army without dealing any damage and as such, lose the game. Also, for the counterattack stuff Z can leave one or two infestors to their main along with about 2 spores and just Fungal the mutas as they come while you go ahead and kill them. Fungal also wrecks both Hydras and Roaches if they have no infestors because 1. Hydras drop in health so quickly you just cast 2 Fungals on a group and they're done and 2. Your Hydras will outrange Roaches so they can kill them without and resistance with your Hydras.
The main thing about the mutas is just psychology. Get over the fear and DO move out, you'll be surprised by the easy victories you'll get vs a Zerg without infestors.
@the post above that one, if he only pushes with 1-3 Thors I have no clue how you can lose with mass Roach. It's most likely not the composition that's the problem, you most likely just didn't drone well enough and fell behind in economy.
Since I know what he is doing I open with 15 Hatch, 14 pool. 2 Queens and energy spent on tumors first to get creep spread as quick as possible. Spine crawler + queen at ramp to keep the 4 hellion harass from entering my main. At most he killed 3 or 4 Drones with the initial 4 hellions. I then drone my ass off for as long as I can stand. Then build the mass roach army. So it isn't a case of economy. The problem is the Repairing SCVs. If I focus a thor he gets repaired my Roaches die. If I attack move, they repair everything my roaches die. If I focus the SCVs he brings more, my roaches die. My best luck has been to A-move to get SCVs repairing different things then Try and focus a thor down real quick.
It's a real bitch of a build. But you think Mass roach is the way to go also?
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On October 14 2010 01:25 Myrkur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2010 00:38 Shikyo wrote:
^I'm not Artosis(currently 1500+ Z), but generally the problem with mutas is that one fungal growth and you lose your entire army without dealing any damage and as such, lose the game. Also, for the counterattack stuff Z can leave one or two infestors to their main along with about 2 spores and just Fungal the mutas as they come while you go ahead and kill them. Fungal also wrecks both Hydras and Roaches if they have no infestors because 1. Hydras drop in health so quickly you just cast 2 Fungals on a group and they're done and 2. Your Hydras will outrange Roaches so they can kill them without and resistance with your Hydras.
The main thing about the mutas is just psychology. Get over the fear and DO move out, you'll be surprised by the easy victories you'll get vs a Zerg without infestors.
@the post above that one, if he only pushes with 1-3 Thors I have no clue how you can lose with mass Roach. It's most likely not the composition that's the problem, you most likely just didn't drone well enough and fell behind in economy. Since I know what he is doing I open with 15 Hatch, 14 pool. 2 Queens and energy spent on tumors first to get creep spread as quick as possible. Spine crawler + queen at ramp to keep the 4 hellion harass from entering my main. At most he killed 3 or 4 Drones with the initial 4 hellions. I then drone my ass off for as long as I can stand. Then build the mass roach army. So it isn't a case of economy. The problem is the Repairing SCVs. If I focus a thor he gets repaired my Roaches die. If I attack move, they repair everything my roaches die. If I focus the SCVs he brings more, my roaches die. My best luck has been to A-move to get SCVs repairing different things then Try and focus a thor down real quick. It's a real bitch of a build. But you think Mass roach is the way to go also?
Mass roach is definitely the way to go vs an early thor/scv/helion attack. Lately I've been experimenting with opening burrow-move roaches against terrans that open helion. I'm not sure how I feel about it yet but it certainly crushes the type of push you describe. You can delay him with burrow micro in the middle of the map giving you ample time to produce more roaches as well as forcing him to waste a lot of scans. Burrow-move also gives you a good counter harass option after you stop his attack.
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On October 14 2010 01:57 Fritts wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2010 01:25 Myrkur wrote:On October 14 2010 00:38 Shikyo wrote:
^I'm not Artosis(currently 1500+ Z), but generally the problem with mutas is that one fungal growth and you lose your entire army without dealing any damage and as such, lose the game. Also, for the counterattack stuff Z can leave one or two infestors to their main along with about 2 spores and just Fungal the mutas as they come while you go ahead and kill them. Fungal also wrecks both Hydras and Roaches if they have no infestors because 1. Hydras drop in health so quickly you just cast 2 Fungals on a group and they're done and 2. Your Hydras will outrange Roaches so they can kill them without and resistance with your Hydras.
The main thing about the mutas is just psychology. Get over the fear and DO move out, you'll be surprised by the easy victories you'll get vs a Zerg without infestors.
@the post above that one, if he only pushes with 1-3 Thors I have no clue how you can lose with mass Roach. It's most likely not the composition that's the problem, you most likely just didn't drone well enough and fell behind in economy. Since I know what he is doing I open with 15 Hatch, 14 pool. 2 Queens and energy spent on tumors first to get creep spread as quick as possible. Spine crawler + queen at ramp to keep the 4 hellion harass from entering my main. At most he killed 3 or 4 Drones with the initial 4 hellions. I then drone my ass off for as long as I can stand. Then build the mass roach army. So it isn't a case of economy. The problem is the Repairing SCVs. If I focus a thor he gets repaired my Roaches die. If I attack move, they repair everything my roaches die. If I focus the SCVs he brings more, my roaches die. My best luck has been to A-move to get SCVs repairing different things then Try and focus a thor down real quick. It's a real bitch of a build. But you think Mass roach is the way to go also? Mass roach is definitely the way to go vs an early thor/scv/helion attack. Lately I've been experimenting with opening burrow-move roaches against terrans that open helion. I'm not sure how I feel about it yet but it certainly crushes the type of push you describe. You can delay him with burrow micro in the middle of the map giving you ample time to produce more roaches as well as forcing him to waste a lot of scans. Burrow-move also gives you a good counter harass option after you stop his attack.
I'll have to make it a point to Lair Tech faster, but It doesn't crush it. At best it will trade. Common thought is that Oh well, roaches destroy hellions. Sure, in small numbers, but 10+ Hellions are doing 80+ AE damage to your roaches. A critical mass of Hellions + a few thors does stupid amounts of damage to Zerg Armies.
I just haven't found the balance of when to Lair, how many Spinecrawlers to build(and when), and when to stop droning and mass roach.
The range upgrade in the upcomming Patch will take this from a "Holy crap, I can't beat this build" to a "meh, guess I just gotta spam roaches for a while"
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Great replay, I just start playing SC2
I love how you spread your creeps so fast with those creep tumor (Definitely #1 at spreading those creep). Any tip you can give us on when to spread creeps? I always find myself just using spawn larvae whenever I have the energy to do so.
I'm also wondering how do I do Overlord drop while my Overlord is still moving. I try it many times but to no avail my Overlord always stop and drop instead of moving and dropping at the same time.
And lastly, I've been seeing a lot of replays of Zerg going the standard Gas > Pool > Hatch then pull 2 or all drones off gas to mine more mineral when they had that 100 gas for speed upgrade. My question is, when do you put the 3 drones back in and also why do people cut off gas immediately after getting speed upgrade considering that most of Zerg army is gas heavy.
I'm also a big fan of you and love your commentating on the GSL! Zerg fighting!!
Thanks!
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Ravens ruin the day ?
Hey Artosis,
I have a question regarding your ZvT. I’m only a 1400p Zerg so forgive me if I don’t understand your build completely. You have shown us a lot of great hydra /infestor play vs Terran and obviously this style gives Zerg a really strong mid game but I have my problems with this build.
Q1: I have seen you researched +1 missile for Hyds which shows me that you delay your ultra tech for quite a while. Have you had problems with large mech balls because of missing ultra tech?
Q2 (The more important): At the moment it seems Terrans rarely build ravens in ZvT simply because they didn’t have to. But I can imagine that detection vs. creep tumors and Point defense drones are really disgusting vs hydra play. If he delays the raven a little bit until you are far in the hydra tech route and then 2 bases pushes … personally I don’t know how to react in this spot.
Thx for the answers and keep your good community work up !
Quark
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Hey Artosis,
Got a couple questions for you.
How do you determine when is a good time to attack? I generally can macro up and defend against early pushes pretty well, but then find myself just macroing to 200/200 and throwing my army at him then. How do you know when / if you should attack before that time?
How do you deal with early MMM pushes that are heavy on marauders. I had a really tough loss to swallow the other day where my opponent went mostly marauders, and I feel that zerg doesn't really have an answer to them early game. How do you defend against this?
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Also, Steppes of War is the worst map for Zerg. X it off in your ladder map pool. You can't learn anything on that map except that Zerg can't play such small maps.
I don't know. I mean, feel free to do whatever you want, but I feel like that mentality isn't really very helpful. Minimizing your losses, even if they're greater than 50% on a particular map, could still be really useful.
If they give any indication that Steppes is going to be removed in the future, by all means, but as long as we're stuck with it...
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On October 14 2010 20:15 Carl_Sagan wrote:Show nested quote +Also, Steppes of War is the worst map for Zerg. X it off in your ladder map pool. You can't learn anything on that map except that Zerg can't play such small maps. I don't know. I mean, feel free to do whatever you want, but I feel like that mentality isn't really very helpful. Minimizing your losses, even if they're greater than 50% on a particular map, could still be really useful. If they give any indication that Steppes is going to be removed in the future, by all means, but as long as we're stuck with it...
To be honest, it *really* surprises me to hear a very high-level tournament player say to vote *any* map out.
I guess it depends on how clear your division between ladder play and tournament practice is, because yeah, I agree that it would be very useful to work on reducing your loss rate on maps that you know are disadvantageous for your race, because in any sort of "loser picks" best-of-X system, you're very likely to have to play on the maps you absolutely despise.
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Does Blizzard choose which maps they drop based on how many people veto it?
If they do then thousands of zergs vetoing Steppes might make it go away.
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Hi Artosis,
just wanted to thank you for your rep pack and for the great VODs you put up on youtube today, and yesterday. You casting VOD is really very interresting because you put a lot of strategic toughts in here.
Big thumb up.
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EPT
