EPTArtosis Reppack 2 + Discussion - Page 8
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eLiE
Canada1039 Posts
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 11 2010 11:31 B34ST wrote: Artosis you are my Starcraft god <3 Watched all Protoss and Terran games. Here are a few things I found out - that some people might want to know, like I did. Artosis VS Terran I worked out your average build order for 1v1 maps, 2v2 maps and overall. The 1v1 and oveall were pritty simlar, in 2v2 you tended to expand first. Here is Artosis's general Terran build order. 9 overlord 15 extractor 14 spawning pool 15 overlord 20 hatchery Out of all 8 games your most popular unit composition was Zerglings/Hydralisks/Infestors. In 2 games you went Ling Roach. In 2 games you went MutaLing. I did work out your percentage of pool and pop opening but it was on a white board, and I've cleaned it since, so I can't quote any information I'm afraid. Notes You often favored zergling speed instead of teching to a Lair to combat early harrasses. You only placed one or two spinecrawlers on average instead of the half a dozen within Protoss games. Artosis VS Protoss I worked out your average build order for 1v1 maps, 2v2 maps and overall. Here is Artosis's general Protoss build order. 9 overlord 15 spawning pool 16 hatchery 18 extractor 21 extractor Out of all 13 games your most popular unit composition was Zerglings/Infestor/Ultralisks. 5 games consisted of Zergling/Infestor/Ultralisk. 1 game consisted of Roach/Zergling/Infestor/Ultralisk. 1 game consisted of Zergling/Infestor/Ultralisk/Broodlord. 1 games consisted of MutaLing/Ultra. 2 games consisted of MutaLing. 2 games consisted of Nydus Worms/Zerglings. 1 game consisted of Zergling/Hydra. Overall - your build order consisted of. 15 spawning pool 15 or 16 hatchery 18 or 21 extractor 1v1- your build order consisted of. 15 spawning pool 15 hatchery 18 or 21 extractor 2v2- your build order consisted of. 15 spawning pool 16 hatchery 18 or 21 extractor Notes You built 4-6 spinecrawlers to defend in early game without building zerglings. Overall Gameplay Notes Spinecrawlers used to defend early game pushes/rushes. Infestors used to defend against air attacks. First queen used first 25 energy on a creep tumor instead of inject larva. Place zerglings all over map where enemy will probably pass through, when a zergling dies and you see a push.. Build units or spinecrawlers to defend, otherwise continue Drone production. Abuse usefulness of Overseers changeling ability. Overall Gameplay Build Order Notes Continously spread creep, using first creep tumor placed down. Use fisrt 100gas for Lair. When Lair is complete, Infestation Pit. When Infestation Pit is complete, infestors + infestor energy upgrade. Continously building drones, only building zerglings when neccasery. When Infestation Pit is complete, Hive upgrade. When Hive is complete, Ultralisk Den. When Ultralisk Den is complete, Ultralisks + armor upgrade. When a decent amount of Infestors/Ultralisks and Zerglings is accomplished, attack and win. I hope that helps some people, it sure as hell helped me. Your replays alone have improved my gameplay by so much! my creep spreading has been awesome, just from watching how well you do it. And my scouting? god damn! If I ever lose a game in 2v2 now, its due to my scouting - nothing else. I'd love to play with you some time  I havn't got around to watching the ZvZ replays yet but I will, and when I do I will do the same thing I've done here. If people want me to post it, I will.wow...that's actually really interesting. thanks for figuring that all out. really cool looking at it like that, gives me some thought on my play in those games. | ||
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 11 2010 11:55 DarkOmen wrote: Hey Artosis, Let me start by saying thank you so much for helping out the community like this, and great work on casting the GSL. <3 the casting archon! My questions are regarding your ZvZ, since this is my weakest matchup and the only set of reps I've watched so far from you. Q1: How do you decide between a fast roach warren and a baneling nest? Is it map/spawn location dependant, or is it just whatever you feel like that game? Q2: What prompts you to put down your expansion? Is it based on food count, how safe you feel, how much pressure your opponent is putting on you, when/if you get multiple queens? Q3: What makes you choose between staying with one queen and getting multiples on one base? I *think* you only stayed 1 queen when you did a very aggressive ling/bane attack on LT, but if there's another reason do tell.  Again, thanks so much for taking the time to help not-so-pro players get better! =) Q1. Its just what I feel like doing in the game, but as a rule in important games/matches, I would probably Roach on Jungle Basin/Delta Quadrant/Shakuras Plateau more often than Bane/ling, and Bane/ling more often than not on the other maps. Q2. Its normally how safe I feel. I have general timings, but they fluctuate depending upon what ive seen. Q3. I decide if my economy will properly support the extra queen. things such as: 1. can i spend 150 minerals, 2 supply, and not upgrade anythign else in this hatch for a bit right now? 2. how fast do i need my creep spread in the early game this game? 3. can i put down my hatchery safely before making this queen? (i.e, how fast is he going to have speed reapers or something of the sort) 4. what build is he doing? will it allow me to drone my hatchery, or will i be defending with an empty natural? im sure theres other stuff in there but thats all that came to mind while sitting at the comp answering this question. | ||
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 11 2010 11:57 absalom86 wrote: Every time I do roach / hydra play against protoss it ends up with colossus wiping my army out hardcore, I find ling into muta / ultra works much better, but I get screwed over if the enemy goes pheonix zealot / stalker. What can I do when they go pheonix with gateway into colossus ? If they go phoenix, you can add some corrupters, but ur decidedly in a bad spot. other options include infestor/ling=>ultra, but its really hard to pull off after a poor opening like htat. | ||
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Beef Noodles
United States937 Posts
I see you and a lot of other top pros not sending drone scouts in zvz on 2 player maps (maybe on 4 player maps too, but I haven't noticed it on 4 player ones). Are you not afraid of 6 pools or 10 pools for the early blings? Do you feel like you have a response to everything zerg can through out you that early if you only spot it coming with your overlord? Also, what if they six pool, and intelligently run the lings away from overlord scout patterns like you would in BW? If you do have an answer to all these shananagins, could you please enlighten us with how to deal with each one of zvz early cheese/aggression strats? | ||
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 11 2010 13:16 Beef Noodles wrote: Hey Artosis! I see you and a lot of other top pros not sending drone scouts in zvz on 2 player maps (maybe on 4 player maps too, but I haven't noticed it on 4 player ones). Are you not afraid of 6 pools or 10 pools for the early blings? Do you feel like you have a response to everything zerg can through out you that early if you only spot it coming with your overlord? Also, what if they six pool, and intelligently run the lings away from overlord scout patterns like you would in BW? If you do have an answer to all these shananagins, could you please enlighten us with how to deal with each one of zvz early cheese/aggression strats? my standard baneling opening stops every single cheese in time. i do die to some of them sometimes, but normally i ahve enough information to hold off whatever is coming. | ||
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Beef Noodles
United States937 Posts
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Gentso
United States2218 Posts
Artosis, I hear you're using neural parasite now against Terran and I'm eagerly awaiting that replay pack. | ||
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Jeffbelittle
United States468 Posts
Q1) When approached with ZvZ, people always ask you about Roaches and you always say "100%, always ALWAYS ALWAYS ZOMG ALWAYS go banelings. It will teach you the ways of the swarm". Well, I'd be lieing if I told you I didn't use both. But since your thirty trillion times better than me, I'll ask a more straight forward question: Why on earth are banelings the ALWAYS answer in ZvZ instead of roaches? To me anyways, it seems like roaches can punish banelings really badly and force the other zerg to be speedling heavy, which if battling at chokes is a losing battle for the ling/bane zerg. I know plenty of games where I punish people at theirs or my ramp with roaches and the banelings almost become completely useless. Please go in more depth on this matter. Q2) In ZvZ: Why would you choose to go mutalisks over hydralisks? If your opponent goes mutalisks, your hydralisks kill them, and if you go mutalisk as well, you'll only win if you have a bigger body count. I guess I just don't understand how you get punished via going roach/hydra in ZvZ. | ||
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B34ST
United Kingdom150 Posts
Artosis VS Zerg 1v1 maps build order 14 Extractor 13 Spawning Pool 21 Bane nest 2v2 maps build order 14 Spawning Pool 15 Extractor 18 roach Warren Overall Build Notes As you can see, the bane opening was used on 1v1 maps. Roach Warren opening on 2v2 maps. First 100gas was used on Zergling Speed. Queen uses fisrt 25 energy on Inject Larva. On Average, 1 spinecrawler at hatch or ramp/choke. Unit Compostiion 1 game you went Baneling in opening - Roach Hydra Infestor 4 games you went Roach Hydra Infestor 1 game you went Zergling Baneling 1 game you went Baneling in opening - Queen Roach Infestor Enjoy. | ||
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Mettyman
Denmark132 Posts
On October 12 2010 07:02 Jeffbelittle wrote: Hey art, 1100 point platinum zerg here with a question about the answer you've given about ZvZ all the time. Q1) When approached with ZvZ, people always ask you about Roaches and you always say "100%, always ALWAYS ALWAYS ZOMG ALWAYS go banelings. It will teach you the ways of the swarm". Well, I'd be lieing if I told you I didn't use both. But since your thirty trillion times better than me, I'll ask a more straight forward question: Why on earth are banelings the ALWAYS answer in ZvZ instead of roaches? To me anyways, it seems like roaches can punish banelings really badly and force the other zerg to be speedling heavy, which if battling at chokes is a losing battle for the ling/bane zerg. I know plenty of games where I punish people at theirs or my ramp with roaches and the banelings almost become completely useless. Please go in more depth on this matter. Q2) In ZvZ: Why would you choose to go mutalisks over hydralisks? If your opponent goes mutalisks, your hydralisks kill them, and if you go mutalisk as well, you'll only win if you have a bigger body count. I guess I just don't understand how you get punished via going roach/hydra in ZvZ. Been wondering the same thing. Seems kinda ignorant to say that banelings are the only answer when you can clearly make stuff happen with roaches as well. | ||
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celdo
Germany23 Posts
i think when he meant always go banelings to improve ur zvz it is because the early zvz depends alot on micro and when u have a good control about ur lings/blings when ur enemy plays the same units u will ALWAYS win the game. last week i considered zvz as my worst matchup but since i watched the last FPVODS (zvz) i won all zvzs so far by going bling (or roaches if he does) and transition into roach/infestor/hydra -> big thx artosis <3 now i try to work on my pvp; so here some questions :> Q1: i always make some spinecrawlers at my exp and go ling/hydra to fend off the push (which EVERYONE does in high plat/low dia) and it works at least more often than it doesnt :> - but then i cant finish him off due to canons and i have trouble with the transition against 1-3 collossi ... mutas work sometimes but my ground army still dies within seconds and after i focused the colossi i still die to his ground army - i dont like corrupter because they r pretty useless after the colossi r down and even more expencive than mutas and i cant seem to win with hydra/roach since it seems that stalker sentry colossi counter them perfectly Q2: when i play muta in zvp and the harrasment doesnt work so well due to stalker defence and canons, should i transition into other units like ultras? i tried to get alot more mutas so i can break his defence but in the end i got owned by HTs (was hard to counter since i couldnt get good map control going and it was closed posi) edit: havent watched all zvp of this replaypack so far due lack of time thx for the great replays again; looking forward to commented FPVODs | ||
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DarkOmen
Canada72 Posts
I have a couple more general questions for you now: Do you, or have you ever used something like Qxc's build order tester to work out build orders? How long/in-depth are your build orders? Do they go to a certain point, at which time you start to just play "by feel" or are your games mapped out right to the late game? I personally find that any opening I want to employ ends abruptly at 26 food. After that, what I do depends largely on what my opponent is doing, with the exception that I'll have a very vague long-term plan, such as speedling into muta/ling into ultra, and I just tend to make drones when I feel I can get away with it, expand when it seems unlikely to die before I get it up, etc. Also, I tend to get upgrades on a whim, like when I notice my money getting high and I'm running low on larvae, for example. | ||
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Kaiko
209 Posts
I had Roaches with speed upgrades and Speedlings. It was on Steppes of War. Seems like this is pretty much the easiest push for Terrans to do that will do massive amounts of damage if not win the game outright. Tanks, even when only doing 35 damage to Lings, decimate them in a decent clump and Marines with Stim are just stupidly effective. | ||
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durielz
United States26 Posts
On October 12 2010 07:28 Mettyman wrote: Been wondering the same thing. Seems kinda ignorant to say that banelings are the only answer when you can clearly make stuff happen with roaches as well. I'm not speaking for anyone, but in my experience roach openings are dominated by getting a +1 attack, expo'ing asap, and preferably cancelling the Nest before it completes. Basically, if you go Blings every ZvZ you can always change it up. It's just a good framework that is flexible, can handle cheese, and can transition to beat anything. | ||
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 11 2010 13:25 Beef Noodles wrote: Is it just the timing of the build, or is it specific building placement, scout patterns and other things that all combine to allow you to hold it off? Its just a combination of everything. | ||
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 12 2010 07:02 Jeffbelittle wrote: Hey art, 1100 point platinum zerg here with a question about the answer you've given about ZvZ all the time. Q1) When approached with ZvZ, people always ask you about Roaches and you always say "100%, always ALWAYS ALWAYS ZOMG ALWAYS go banelings. It will teach you the ways of the swarm". Well, I'd be lieing if I told you I didn't use both. But since your thirty trillion times better than me, I'll ask a more straight forward question: Why on earth are banelings the ALWAYS answer in ZvZ instead of roaches? To me anyways, it seems like roaches can punish banelings really badly and force the other zerg to be speedling heavy, which if battling at chokes is a losing battle for the ling/bane zerg. I know plenty of games where I punish people at theirs or my ramp with roaches and the banelings almost become completely useless. Please go in more depth on this matter. Q2) In ZvZ: Why would you choose to go mutalisks over hydralisks? If your opponent goes mutalisks, your hydralisks kill them, and if you go mutalisk as well, you'll only win if you have a bigger body count. I guess I just don't understand how you get punished via going roach/hydra in ZvZ. Q1. For anyone learning ZvZ, its important to use the baneling opening, because it is the best and will teach you the most. The thing is, you will learn how to react to everything with the build. For instance, if you go roach and I'm making the baneling build, I actually cancel my baneling nest, drone up, and go roach with a better economy off a handful of speedlings which give me complete map control and keep you 100% in the dark. Roach play is still/will still be used from time to time, but for people learning, its a bad build to use. You can learn more about how to play roach openings by playing baneling openings, believe it or not. Q2. You don't really get punished if you play it right. I only go muta very rarely, in rare circumstances. For example, if my opponent is all-in baneling, I will go muta. Roach/Hydra/Infestor is the best unit composition overall though. | ||
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 12 2010 07:23 B34ST wrote: I'm back again but this time I bring the joys of ZvZ Artosis style. Artosis VS Zerg 1v1 maps build order 14 Extractor 13 Spawning Pool 21 Bane nest 2v2 maps build order 14 Spawning Pool 15 Extractor 18 roach Warren Overall Build Notes As you can see, the bane opening was used on 1v1 maps. Roach Warren opening on 2v2 maps. First 100gas was used on Zergling Speed. Queen uses fisrt 25 energy on Inject Larva. On Average, 1 spinecrawler at hatch or ramp/choke. Unit Compostiion 1 game you went Baneling in opening - Roach Hydra Infestor 4 games you went Roach Hydra Infestor 1 game you went Zergling Baneling 1 game you went Baneling in opening - Queen Roach Infestor Enjoy. Haha, I actually do a lot of stuff ZvZ. Thx again  ! | ||
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 12 2010 07:28 Mettyman wrote: Been wondering the same thing. Seems kinda ignorant to say that banelings are the only answer when you can clearly make stuff happen with roaches as well. Yeah, cuz that's what I said. Banelings are the only answer. Lol. | ||
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On October 12 2010 07:45 celdo wrote: as i observed artosis last replays he makes 100gas speed, 50gas baneling nest and after 15 supply zerglings which he sends directly in the enemy base. so when he sees a roach warren, he cancels banelingnest and goes for roaches aswell, if he doesnt see roach warren or baneling nest, he goes for blings. i think when he meant always go banelings to improve ur zvz it is because the early zvz depends alot on micro and when u have a good control about ur lings/blings when ur enemy plays the same units u will ALWAYS win the game. last week i considered zvz as my worst matchup but since i watched the last FPVODS (zvz) i won all zvzs so far by going bling (or roaches if he does) and transition into roach/infestor/hydra -> big thx artosis <3 now i try to work on my pvp; so here some questions :> Q1: i always make some spinecrawlers at my exp and go ling/hydra to fend off the push (which EVERYONE does in high plat/low dia) and it works at least more often than it doesnt :> - but then i cant finish him off due to canons and i have trouble with the transition against 1-3 collossi ... mutas work sometimes but my ground army still dies within seconds and after i focused the colossi i still die to his ground army - i dont like corrupter because they r pretty useless after the colossi r down and even more expencive than mutas and i cant seem to win with hydra/roach since it seems that stalker sentry colossi counter them perfectly Q2: when i play muta in zvp and the harrasment doesnt work so well due to stalker defence and canons, should i transition into other units like ultras? i tried to get alot more mutas so i can break his defence but in the end i got owned by HTs (was hard to counter since i couldnt get good map control going and it was closed posi) edit: havent watched all zvp of this replaypack so far due lack of time thx for the great replays again; looking forward to commented FPVODs Q1. There isn't actually a question mark in here. Hmm. So I guess I'll give you a tip. Don't ever transition from Hydra to Muta. It just doesn't work. I so wish it did. Q2. Its ok if the Muta harass isn't doing much. As long as you are expanding behind it, you will be fine. You CAN tech up to Ultras while doing it if you like, but I prefer staying Muta/Ling 8 times out of 10. When he leaves his base to finally attack you, you simply go in and kill a bunch of stuff, then fly away to defend. | ||
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