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On August 25 2010 08:57 iEchoic wrote:
I added an additional replay to help people who have been having trouble with void ray openings, as this was a popular complaint.
That's one thing I never saw today. Any Protoss I fought I saw zero VR's. Although by the time a VR would hit I usually had probably 6-7 marines which would eat a single VR so interested in seeing your replays.
One thing I like about this build though is that is really forces you to pay attention to your macro. If you're off then the whole build is mistimed which hurts.
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The last replay I think shows many things. First it was a very good harass by the hellions, 12 probes! Second, your army kinda got its butt kicked by Zealot Phoenix, which has been discussed in this thread as a possible counter. Third, Toss neglects detection and instaloses to Cloak.
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I used this build quite a lot. It is quite awesome. I usually get later banshees (expand while 2 port in progress lol) but it does help lol. Im still poor at 350 Diamond but this build is darn good.
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You should consider creating a Liquipedia Article for this Strategy.
This way a lot more people will read and use it 
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Question iEchoic. How would you deal with a cannon in the mineral line?
I ran into that this morning. That nearly made the drop completely worthless as I only got 2-3 kills instead of the usual 7-8 or more. Just wondering if there's something better to do at that point. Sac the medivac maybe to draw the cannon's fire to get more kills?
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Luckily I look around at TL forums in strategy section a lot !
Been getting this build against me a few times (75% loss against this build) and now I know where T are struggling I am happy you posted it here on TL :D
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Regarding the Scan for DT, why not invest in a engineering bay and 1 turret close to your bunker? If the scan could have been a mule, you'll save some mineral cost. 225minerals + mule or scan.
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@inflicte24 : it's not possible to directly value them against each-others. Spending 125+100 minerals (also factor in lost mining time for scv building engi+turret) means that other structures/units have to be delayed.
It's also a risk to not have those 50 energy if he has managed to extend pylon power over a ledge and sends a hallucination or elsewise that gives vision and warps in a dt away from the entrance.
@OP : nice read and a good strategy. I fear however that as soon as protoss start to catch on and finds some safe builds that manages to implement forge/cannon near minerals, that it will become much harder to execute your build.
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On August 25 2010 21:43 SkullOne wrote:
Question iEchoic. How would you deal with a cannon in the mineral line?
I ran into that this morning. That nearly made the drop completely worthless as I only got 2-3 kills instead of the usual 7-8 or more. Just wondering if there's something better to do at that point. Sac the medivac maybe to draw the cannon's fire to get more kills?
Not many people just build a cannon in their mineral line for the heck of it. Probably you got scouted somehow. If not and it was truly a spontaneous cannon, you should still be able to do alright, 3 kills is still fine considering he wasted so many minerals for the Forge + Cannon.
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Personally from what i've realised, all it takes is just 3worker kills to make it DEFINITELY worth the 3hellions.
each hellion 100minerals, x3 thats 300minerals used. However if you factor in worker cost+mining time lost,as long as you kill at least 3 probes(150 minerals cost), i would say that harassment has already paid off. This assumption is as long as u dont lose that Medivac,as i found it quite useful if i just drop off the hellions and keep the medivac alive, i can use it in that timing push.
not to mention what that harass does to the enemy player's mindset and tempo
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Great post, nice and concise is such a rarity. I look forward to trying it out.
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On August 25 2010 22:46 SoFFacet wrote:Not many people just build a cannon in their mineral line for the heck of it. Probably you got scouted somehow. If not and it was truly a spontaneous cannon, you should still be able to do alright, 3 kills is still fine considering he wasted so many minerals for the Forge + Cannon.
No scout. I checked for that in the replay. I think he did it just on a whim because of the use of Banshee's against P now especially for harassment.
I don't see this happening often but I could see more Protoss turn to this since it would limit the Hellion drop harass and Banshee harass.
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I tried it out yesterday, and it worked like a charm. With my terrible terrible micro I was still able to down 12 probes and get out there safely without any loss. Expanded without trouble and the marine/tank drop that followed was gg.
I really like the easy transition into either heavy medivac drop play or cloaked banshees. I will try this against terran and see if I can move my TvT away from the dreadful viking+tank play.
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awesome, its great to have posts like this to base builds off. ty.
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Hyrule19267 Posts
So, I was discussing this with Pholon and orb a bit while writing up the Liquipedia article, and this has at least 1 hard counter, and 2 or 3 soft counters.
Hard counter: Blink Stalkers off 10 pylon/10 gate
Soft counters: 2/3 gate push, Immortal/Stalker, Feedback
-> Pimpest Play (suggested by Pholon as a counter-counter): get a Ghost and EMP your Banshees
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On August 25 2010 21:43 SkullOne wrote:
Question iEchoic. How would you deal with a cannon in the mineral line?
I ran into that this morning. That nearly made the drop completely worthless as I only got 2-3 kills instead of the usual 7-8 or more. Just wondering if there's something better to do at that point. Sac the medivac maybe to draw the cannon's fire to get more kills?
If they made a forge + cannon, then they are already behind even before you get to their base. 2-3 kills (should be more really) puts you even further ahead. Saccing the medivac is a poor idea as you can use it for the push or to make drops in expos if game continues.
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nice guide, could you post a replay?
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Hyrule19267 Posts
On August 26 2010 01:51 coltrane wrote:
nice guide, could you post a replay?
Can you read the OP? There's 4.
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Thanks iEchoic for the clear and thorough guide. I am excited to try this out, I am sick of my current vs.Toss builds and none of them are much like this.
I had been enjoying the 1/1/1 FE with a raven vs. Toss lately, until a 4gate blink stalker build hit me where it hurt just as I FE'd, lol.
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arent void ray counter to battlecruisers?
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EPT
