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On August 27 2010 01:35 john92 wrote:I think getting 2 fast stalker can put pressure on the Terran player forcing him to build more marines then transitioning to VR to finish him off. It could be my opponent is bad but nether less it was funny how raged at the end. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-143117.jpg)
That guy didn't build a bunker to stop the stalkers, he also built two marines and then stopped and got 2nd gas too early. The bunker is 100% essential to stop stalkers.
I'll answer other Qs later, doing some work atm.
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On August 26 2010 14:27 Svizcy wrote:
Really nice guide, i tried it couple of times now. Workes nice until the point where i should be switching to BCes. At that time if toss has a good number of blink stalkers with some templar support, just demolishes the mix of BC/raven/banshee/marine army mainly because HTs just feedback everything and blink stalkers do the rest.
So how would we counter that kind of mix and not trying to lose the momentum of this air-push we have going on?
My idea was more hellions into the mix to kill HTs, but it's not really working the best.
good day, svizcy
You're spending too much time on heavy air after he teched to the counter. Add in tanks or a nice marauder + ghost ball to help deal with the stalkers. Also, sounds like you are not really getting a good drop off if he is able to keep up with your macro.
Hellions are good vs HTs, but not vs stalkers. Rauders and tanks are the only real optionis
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This looks like a pretty nifty build, and you made a really great write up for it! I'm going to try this out asap. My only question is will this work on maps with back doors, i.e. Blistering Sands or Kulas?
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On August 27 2010 04:43 Shaithis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2010 14:27 Svizcy wrote:
Really nice guide, i tried it couple of times now. Workes nice until the point where i should be switching to BCes. At that time if toss has a good number of blink stalkers with some templar support, just demolishes the mix of BC/raven/banshee/marine army mainly because HTs just feedback everything and blink stalkers do the rest.
So how would we counter that kind of mix and not trying to lose the momentum of this air-push we have going on?
My idea was more hellions into the mix to kill HTs, but it's not really working the best.
good day, svizcy You're spending too much time on heavy air after he teched to the counter. Add in tanks or a nice marauder + ghost ball to help deal with the stalkers. Also, sounds like you are not really getting a good drop off if he is able to keep up with your macro. Hellions are good vs HTs, but not vs stalkers. Rauders and tanks are the only real optionis
That makes sense, I've been having a lot of trouble transitioning out of that banshee marine play into BCs. Bio-mech sounds more reasonable in many situations, using the 2 starports for medivac only.
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On August 27 2010 05:10 Trion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2010 04:43 Shaithis wrote:On August 26 2010 14:27 Svizcy wrote:
Really nice guide, i tried it couple of times now. Workes nice until the point where i should be switching to BCes. At that time if toss has a good number of blink stalkers with some templar support, just demolishes the mix of BC/raven/banshee/marine army mainly because HTs just feedback everything and blink stalkers do the rest.
So how would we counter that kind of mix and not trying to lose the momentum of this air-push we have going on?
My idea was more hellions into the mix to kill HTs, but it's not really working the best.
good day, svizcy You're spending too much time on heavy air after he teched to the counter. Add in tanks or a nice marauder + ghost ball to help deal with the stalkers. Also, sounds like you are not really getting a good drop off if he is able to keep up with your macro. Hellions are good vs HTs, but not vs stalkers. Rauders and tanks are the only real optionis That makes sense, I've been having a lot of trouble transitioning out of that banshee marine play into BCs. Bio-mech sounds more reasonable in many situations, using the 2 starports for medivac only.
I've only had to transition to BC's twice so far and the second time I didn't even need to build any as my push forced the GG. Here's how I transition, hopefully it works for you or you can improve on it.
If the drop went well and the first push did plenty of damage (take natural during push) but didn't force a GG then I drop the Fusion Core at the same time I take my third base which is usually during my second push. My second push comes quickly after the first. The second push is a mix of MM and Banshee from 3 rax (two tech, 1 react) and 2 port. After I take my third if needed I'll drop a third port to keep banshee/medevac production going while BC's are building on the original two ports. MM is constant production. I push again after first 2 BC's are out. That's when that one game ended. If it hadn't ended I was in the process of taking my fourth base to ramp up production.
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On August 27 2010 05:10 Trion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2010 04:43 Shaithis wrote:On August 26 2010 14:27 Svizcy wrote:
Really nice guide, i tried it couple of times now. Workes nice until the point where i should be switching to BCes. At that time if toss has a good number of blink stalkers with some templar support, just demolishes the mix of BC/raven/banshee/marine army mainly because HTs just feedback everything and blink stalkers do the rest.
So how would we counter that kind of mix and not trying to lose the momentum of this air-push we have going on?
My idea was more hellions into the mix to kill HTs, but it's not really working the best.
good day, svizcy You're spending too much time on heavy air after he teched to the counter. Add in tanks or a nice marauder + ghost ball to help deal with the stalkers. Also, sounds like you are not really getting a good drop off if he is able to keep up with your macro. Hellions are good vs HTs, but not vs stalkers. Rauders and tanks are the only real optionis That makes sense, I've been having a lot of trouble transitioning out of that banshee marine play into BCs. Bio-mech sounds more reasonable in many situations, using the 2 starports for medivac only.
BCs are a strong and logical transition, but they are simply not cost-effective vs many stalkers. That said, stalkers are not really a great unit for him to start building as a reaction to your push, as banshees are decent at killing them and it is commonly understood that stalkers blow chunks vs most Terran comps / transitions.
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Alright, I've played this build in my last +10 TvPs and I can say it is extremely effective, however i had trouble with 2 things.
1) 3gate stalker push. This comes right around the time my 2nd starport begins construction and my 3 hellion drop is underway with constant reinforcements from a proxy pylon this takes down the bunker before my SCVs come to repair and Stalkers tear through Marines if he does a bit of micro. Key to holding this off is to have a proper wall in (best is 1 bunker in between 2 supply depots imo) and if you see that you cannot hold the front to retreat all your troops and pull all SCVs to serve as meatshields, if you survive this push you are at a great advantage since you (hopefully) roasted all his drones.
2) voidgay push. This also comes around the time the drop happens, however the thing is you have to SCOUT it. Scouting is critical against those voidrays. Since I have no reaper in this build like i do in my good old 3rax that gives me cheap scouting i put one scan that barely touches his gas geysers and hopefully the rest of his base while sending one SCV in the front to see what his unit comp is made of / how many Gateways he has in the front) if it is 1 or 2 Gateways and 2 gas with mostly gas light units (i.e. zealot heavy, though this doesnt have to be since he can have anywhere from 1-3 VR if he has chronoboost saved up) you can be almost 100% sure its void rays and I get 2 Vikings (like stated in the OP) to fend them off. Viking micro should be known, make sure you barely get in range and then fly away again. If you can manage not to let them get charged up you have won the game since he invested so much in those expensive VRs. Good Protosses will split your forces by f.e. putting 1 VR with their ground forces in the front and 2 VR a little split apart in the back of your base. This requires good multitasking and reaction, the best counter is to see it coming and be prepared.
When trying this build I often felt in the dark and since it is quite fragile in the first 8 minutes of the game scouting is super-important. I just felt that the OP did not reflect upon that enough, since I think it is a very strong build even if scouted. Also BC pew pewing all over the opponent is awesome :D
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This is a very good build,but what is the counter without having to play really safe and defensive?
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On August 27 2010 08:31 ChickenLips wrote:
Alright, I've played this build in my last +10 TvPs and I can say it is extremely effective, however i had trouble with 2 things.
1) 3gate stalker push. This comes right around the time my 2nd starport begins construction and my 3 hellion drop is underway with constant reinforcements from a proxy pylon this takes down the bunker before my SCVs come to repair and Stalkers tear through Marines if he does a bit of micro. Key to holding this off is to have a proper wall in (best is 1 bunker in between 2 supply depots imo) and if you see that you cannot hold the front to retreat all your troops and pull all SCVs to serve as meatshields, if you survive this push you are at a great advantage since you (hopefully) roasted all his drones.
2) voidgay push. This also comes around the time the drop happens, however the thing is you have to SCOUT it. Scouting is critical against those voidrays. Since I have no reaper in this build like i do in my good old 3rax that gives me cheap scouting i put one scan that barely touches his gas geysers and hopefully the rest of his base while sending one SCV in the front to see what his unit comp is made of / how many Gateways he has in the front) if it is 1 or 2 Gateways and 2 gas with mostly gas light units (i.e. zealot heavy, though this doesnt have to be since he can have anywhere from 1-3 VR if he has chronoboost saved up) you can be almost 100% sure its void rays and I get 2 Vikings (like stated in the OP) to fend them off. Viking micro should be known, make sure you barely get in range and then fly away again. If you can manage not to let them get charged up you have won the game since he invested so much in those expensive VRs. Good Protosses will split your forces by f.e. putting 1 VR with their ground forces in the front and 2 VR a little split apart in the back of your base. This requires good multitasking and reaction, the best counter is to see it coming and be prepared.
When trying this build I often felt in the dark and since it is quite fragile in the first 8 minutes of the game scouting is super-important. I just felt that the OP did not reflect upon that enough, since I think it is a very strong build even if scouted. Also BC pew pewing all over the opponent is awesome :D
Can you post a replay of a game where you got hit with a 3 gate stalker push? i haven't seen one yet in my matches but by the time my second port is going up I already have a bunker and at least 4-5 other marines and even a banshee on the way. Just want to see how your timings match up to mine.
I crushed another toss with this again tonight. He couldn't believe the constant pressure. i think his comment was "god damn! GG".
Even got this to work against a Zerg on LT tonight. Granted he did a very early pool but man is the transition to thors/tanks easy with this build. Just wish the drop did more damage. i think i'll have to really play with this build and see if I can figure a way to get an even quicker 3 hellion drop for use against zerg without it needing to be situational like map or early pool rush.
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I really like this build, haven't got it down flawlessly yet, but have had a few nice wins with it, although that said, I am only low diamond. Oh, and very well written guide, thanks!
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A few replays of Morrow testing this build out v DuckloadRa on http://sc2rep.net/ id tag 1655-1659, some high skill level used here ofc.
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On August 27 2010 15:43 Dadant wrote:A few replays of Morrow testing this build out v DuckloadRa on http://sc2rep.net/ id tag 1655-1659, some high skill level used here ofc.
very interesting matches, in game 4 you can see how this build (minus the hellion drop) gets picked apart by a few stalkers and sentries even though morrow is 15 food ahead of his opponent who already expanded when the push happens. The first push and the micro is very important it seems. I also think that a few marauders as meatshields are needed since the do so well vs stalkers who are the #1 early and early mid game threat to this build.
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On August 27 2010 17:13 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2010 15:43 Dadant wrote:A few replays of Morrow testing this build out v DuckloadRa on http://sc2rep.net/ id tag 1655-1659, some high skill level used here ofc. very interesting matches, in game 4 you can see how this build (minus the hellion drop) gets picked apart by a few stalkers and sentries even though morrow is 15 food ahead of his opponent who already expanded when the push happens. The first push and the micro is very important it seems. I also think that a few marauders as meatshields are needed since the do so well vs stalkers who are the #1 early and early mid game threat to this build.
I'm feeling the same way after trying it, that you need to move away from the mass marines unless you smell voidrays. Even 1rax marauder provides some needed HP shields for the banshees, and i think would benefit the first push immensely. You have time afaik to get that techlab and throw out 4+ marauders before the push comes as you can see the starport (or rather lack of) with the hellion drop.
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I will try this build with a variation when I get home. If I scout a lot of gateways I'll get my second gas after the factory so i can support marauders + banshees (maybe even cloak lol) and get stimpack. I might even go for a super early second gas since everything that is awesome vs. protoss is so gas heavy (marauders with stim/CS + banshees w/ cloak + ravens for PDD) and I can just dump the rest of my minerals into marines and an expo + more barracks. Gas is super important and if i want to transition into BCs having a nice stockpile of gas is never a bad thing since 2 base gas is not enough to sustain constant 2prot BC and 3rax Marauder production without cutting either of the two slightly.
The main problem I see is that the marines are just too fragile to fight a decent Protoss force that micros a bit and uses FF.
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On August 27 2010 17:13 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2010 15:43 Dadant wrote:A few replays of Morrow testing this build out v DuckloadRa on http://sc2rep.net/ id tag 1655-1659, some high skill level used here ofc. very interesting matches, in game 4 you can see how this build (minus the hellion drop) gets picked apart by a few stalkers and sentries even though morrow is 15 food ahead of his opponent who already expanded when the push happens. The first push and the micro is very important it seems. I also think that a few marauders as meatshields are needed since the do so well vs stalkers who are the #1 early and early mid game threat to this build.
Actually morrow is 4 food ahead and has 4 food still en route and taking into account the diff between toss and terran mechanics, morrow has 9 food training in his production buildings(and ra has 1 more worker). As the army tab indicates, ra has stronger army and in reality more food count.
If we go to game 1 fx, morrow has a lot stronger army when his push comes due to the wasted resources of ra's 'attack'.
I think the only build that seems to manhandle this one is blinking stalkers like we saw in the 2nd game. Anyway a raven as the first unit from the labbed port + replace rax in wall with another bunker might help?(raven for spotting the obs so stalkers don't get potshots and pdd ofc). Then the banshee's can go offensive and try to snipe a few probes, pylons or whatever?
I'm wondering though, if a drop would actually be possible vs as good player as ra. His obs seems to come out just early enough to reach t's base(the 1st game being the exception) and *should* spot what's up...
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The problem with an early raven is that it's equivalent to 2 banshees (6 food) of gas cost, and is a non-attacking unit. If you are forced to build one, you may as well expand and keep harassing b/c I guarantee that you will not be able to push out.
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On August 27 2010 22:52 Shaithis wrote:
The problem with an early raven is that it's equivalent to 2 banshees (6 food) of gas cost, and is a non-attacking unit. If you are forced to build one, you may as well expand and keep harassing b/c I guarantee that you will not be able to push out.
Well in my games, I do have 100 gas extra(300 gas when both ports have tech lab) , so in reality by my execution atleast, it'd just cost me 1 banshee, since my gas income is high enough to produce 2x banshees forever.
Edit: This is ofc without cloak. If you are picking cloak, then you'd not have enough gas for a raven
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I must say, the timing which you can push with banshees is beastly
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Brah that replay of ElParamedico is me!
How should I have countered?
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I'm guessing it wasn't mentioned because it's a given, but one thing I would add in the case of BC transition is building a raven or two while the FC is building up. I find that PDD is mandatory vs stalkers, especially if you're going to be aggressive and fight on his ground. It also helps killing stray observers for your remaining banshees, or eventual ghosts (to emp/snipe templars).
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EPT
