[H] ZvT T Mass reaper to Marauder - Page 2

Tachion

Canada8573 Posts

August 03 2010 20:36 GMT

#21

Ensnare's reaper micro is much better than LZ's, except he has a different follow-up. Watch the ogs vs Prime games, it's mind boggling. This strategy could be even more dangerous in the hands of a korean pro.

AnodyneSea

Jamaica757 Posts

August 03 2010 20:43 GMT

#22

This is such a hard build to counter, I think speedlings are better to deal with it because of numbers + speed, if you split control groups and try and sandwich and catch them off guard/when they're jumping up and down cliffs, also early creep spread. i've had good success vs lower level players.. cant speak for higher level players with better micro and multi tasking.. i assume i'd get owned

EDIT: After watching the videos again, yeah i would definitely get owned by this.. hopefully no one does it to me, i would probably rage quit

Phayze

Canada2029 Posts

August 03 2010 21:04 GMT

#23

yes people please watch the games before commenting. I do not feel speedlings are the response at all. The reapers are just so strong vs them. And neither are spine crawlers because they just insta die and delay you too much. This build is super fair.

EnderCN

United States499 Posts

August 03 2010 21:37 GMT

#24

I think strifeco would have won if he had just gone infestation pit instead of spire to be honest. The Terran is heavily committed towards barracks units and infestors completely destroy barracks units not to mention a single FG means bye bye reapers if you have any other units on the map.

Machine just didn't know what hit him. I'm sure this is really tough to deal with but I'm also sure there are counters to it.

Sylvr

United States524 Posts

August 03 2010 21:46 GMT

#25

On August 04 2010 06:04 Phayze wrote:
yes people please watch the games before commenting. I do not feel speedlings are the response at all. The reapers are just so strong vs them. And neither are spine crawlers because they just insta die and delay you too much.

I watched the videos. Machine didn't "go speedlings" to counter that. His gas was way late and he fast expanded.

This is pure theorycrafting, but I would say that the answer is light roaches, plenty of speedlings, and about 3 Spine crawlers. Group your Spines in a way that basically deters the Terran from taking that path. Keep the Roaches somewhat out and to the side. Chase the Reapers with the Roaches and try to flank and cut off the retreat with the speedlings.

Basically, try to lure him into a V and close it off with speedlings. Do this while you get a Spire. The name of this game is to buy time.

After work, I'll see if my roommate feels like testing it out for a while.

thOr6136

Slovenia1775 Posts

August 03 2010 21:56 GMT

#26

Yeah it seems unstoppable right now, i die to this all the time. Sometimes just reapers crush me sometimes its a follow up with marauders... the problem is that it really messes with your economy, the fucking out-range everything so its really tuff. Those who are saying anything about lair, lol, you cant even get to there TT

i just cannot wait for the patch oh god, when will it come

and maps are a problem too -,.-

Ketara

United States15065 Posts

August 03 2010 22:03 GMT

#27

I'm ranked like 13 Platinum right now, and only started playing in phase 2 of the beta, so not nearly as good at micro as I'm sure y'all are, but I've been playing Terran and after watching the two games above have been doing this build vs. Zerg every single game.

It works horribly well (I am surprised Reapers are 1 supply) but one thing that did screw it up for me was the Zerg player stealing my second gas with his scout.

You kind of have to decide whether to kill the extractor with the reapers and give it away, or only attack with about 3 of them and not have any backup. 1 Marine can't kill the extractor if you cancel/rebuild.

IMO, the magic of this build isn't really how strong the Reapers are, but more how inexpensive they are minerals wise, it lets you follow up with a reasonably quick expansion and 5-6 Barracks much faster than other infantry builds. Whereas the Zerg player has to spend much more resources and time wise to block it.

Madkipz

Norway1643 Posts

August 03 2010 22:14 GMT

#28

You kind of have to decide whether to kill the extractor with the reapers and give it away, or only attack with about 3 of them and not have any backup. 1 Marine can't kill the extractor if you cancel/rebuild.

kill the extractor. revealing your reaper tech doesnt matter.

fancy

Sweden20 Posts

August 03 2010 22:34 GMT

#29

I'd have to agree with above poster. Since the reapers deal massive damage to buildings and extractors are pretty squishy it shouldn't really matter. Sure it might buy the Zerg a few seconds to ge t maybe another set of zerglings done but really in the grand scope of things unless he is expecting it beforehand he shouldn't be able to fend it off. Just kill the extractor and proceed to his base, this will matter even less since you are getting reaperspeed which means you'll be there in the blink of an eye anyhow.

Ketara

United States15065 Posts

August 03 2010 22:40 GMT

#30

Yeah, I wasn't suggesting it as a straight up counter, more something nobody had suggested so far that would buy some time.

fancy

Sweden20 Posts

August 03 2010 23:26 GMT

#31

I discussed this with my friend and we came up with a reasonably feasible strategy to counter this. you basically don't expand and place down 3 spinecrawlers close to your hatch/ in the mineral-line. And then you rally speedlings to his base and try to stay alive with a queen transfusing your spinecrawlers while you try to tech to mutas.

This should work in theory since it takes quite some buildup for the reapers so be able to deal efficiently with the crawlers and with lings beating up his front he has to divert some of his reapers to his main and that means it will take more time for him to get the critical mass of reapers needed to deal with the spinecrawlers which should give you enough time to get mutas and by then since your lings has been poking at his front he shouldn't ahve been able to expand and with the mutas coming it should be pretty much gg or atleast bring the game back to status quo.

Food for thought!

noko

United States7 Posts

August 03 2010 23:27 GMT

#32

only guessing here:

1) queens, transfusion, spine crawlers into muta something.
2) defending with roach/queen/infusion and a tight base structure placement, later slow drop roaches into enemy main
3) attacking enemy front door with roaches, maybe with burrow/tunneling claws as well.

proxY_

United States1561 Posts

August 03 2010 23:59 GMT

#33

Transfusion costs, I believe, 50 energy whereas spawn larvae only costs 25. Since it really shouldn't be viable to cut spawn larvae the zerg has to make additional queens just to try to transfuse the crawlers. The terran also can follow this up with a number of very strong builds whereas the zerg is pretty much just trying to stay alive. I'm really not a fan of one base zerg plays but I think it's the only viable option for zerg here since I just don't think that they can cover both their expansion and their main when dealing with this.

Fast teching to mutas out of one base isn't really an optimal strategy either. The terran can make several missile turrents, rush out a thor, or just plain spam marines (though spamming marines isn't optimal since the zerg could transition into banelings). It just seems like even if the zerg can defend, the terran can outmacro and trounce the zerg on his follow through. This is part of the reason that I don't try to play zerg anymore lol.

AbyssArray

Canada26 Posts

August 04 2010 00:10 GMT

#34

Would something like this be useful?

http://www.youtube.com/user/HDstarcraft#p/u/4/kp08rcLmRS8

One of HD's latest casts.. the Zerg player went Hatchery before Pool, held off the Reaper/Bunker with 2 Queens and lots of Zerglings.

MadRhetoric

United States8 Posts

August 04 2010 00:45 GMT

#35

I play terran, not zerg, but I think zerg has a response to this.

As other people said, going 1 base muta will allow you to survive but a good terran will scout the tech and plan accordingly. However, missile turrets are static and clearly vikings won't be online for quite a while with this build. This means that zerg can reasonably force the reapers back home, as seen in the LZ games posted before, and then take complete map control. I think zerg count out "simply outmacro the opponent" as a viable strategy. Check out Idra's winning games in the king of beta tourney. His wins were on big maps that allowed him to contain and expand. Looking at LZGamer's game vs. Strife above, I think strife could have won if he simply held the terran back and expanded. Instead, he wanted the quick win and rushed his units into a wall. I'm definitely going to try this as terran, but I think zerg is more than capable of holding it off.

Phayze

Canada2029 Posts

August 04 2010 00:51 GMT

#36

1base muta comes too late, and the reapers 2 shot a spire. The marauders come before mutalisks finish and theres the gigantic possibility that the spire will get killed off. You have to build roaches to defend any sort of spire also, so that delays it massively. once the terran gets to 6 7 8 reapers he 2 shots a spine crawler too, so unless you have them in sets together (2+) you need roaches. You're already behind, you cannot afford spine crawlers. That lowers your drone count even more. I do not see any viable options against this build that progress you nicely into the mid game. It's nothing short of ridiculous.

MadRhetoric

United States8 Posts

August 04 2010 00:56 GMT

#37

I meant to go from roaches to mutas, exactly like Strife did in the video. He was in a fine position until that last attack. It really depends on your ability to macro while you micro your roaches.

Phayze

Canada2029 Posts

August 04 2010 01:00 GMT

#38

In that last video MadRhetoric, LzGamer also favored a lot more reapers than he needed. Many players are now favoring stopping at 8 or 9, and massing marauders with stim off 2base, and relying on missile turrets to completely shut down any muta shenanigans. If you watched the video, LzGamer had 2bases, was up over 20 workers, and also had a significant army advantage. The mutalisks were a waste of resources (Hell wen the spire completed he only had 200 gas = 2 mutalisks saved up) because of the marine count, LzGamer was well defended against any sort of harass (Even over his barackks) and had a significant worker advantage with 2OC's muling + 20++ scvs. As zerg, your macro extends as far as your larvae permits and i'm sure the macro was fine that game MadRhetoric. I'm still continuing practicing against this build and have made much progress. But despite what you do you're still going to be behind. It's really hard to get ahead vs this style of play and I always feel as if i'm trying to get out from the slums.

cerebralz

United States443 Posts

August 04 2010 01:19 GMT

#39

I've had a lot of trouble with this build as well. I either straight up lose to the reapers or build up a ton of roaches and get owned 2 mins later by marauders. No less 3x by the same guy. Very maddening.

The more effective harass for the terran is when he builds up 3-5 reapers with speed than the ultra fast reaper. i've tried to baneling bust this but he smartly held up and defended. Then when i had nothing in my base he began the attack.

I will try the multiple queen/spines though that might work since you can spread more creep in your base. It's hard though with the big mains of LT and such.

Pistolfied

Canada79 Posts

August 04 2010 01:30 GMT

#40

The only counter I can see to this is double gas steal but then you lose quite a few minerals (extractors + lost mining) and the terran can probably just get away with mass marines at that point :\

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[H] ZvT T Mass reaper to Marauder - Page 2

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