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Some Terran just did this to me on the ladder - I thought it was an absolutely trash strategy, but perhaps he just executed poorly.
Lately I've been 14 gas 13 pooling vs. Terran, opting to take a slightly delayed expansion (around 20 food), and my speedlings absolutely dominated his mass reapers with nitro packs. Rushing speed in this manner, only one reaper gets out before you get Zergling speed.
From there I went into a 2 base mutalisk -> mass expand, using roach/hydra/ling to stop the marauder + thor (in retrospect I should probably just muta/ling/bling).
Here's the replay. I have to warn you in advance that my Zerg is super rusty having not played them for a solid two months. But even so, that play seemed a little risky at best.
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Stike, I watched the replay and your opponent was garbage. He built his expo way late. Watch the game vs incontrol, You will see why speedlings just do not work. He is not doing the build correctly. He hadnt even expanded yet and climbed up to 900 minerals. Had not even started marauder production. by the time your mutas came. When he's supposed to attack with marauders before the spire completes. Also he stopped after 4 or 5 reapers, did not kill any queens or structure etc. This build is all about the critical mass of reapers that two shot any tech structure and even 20+ zerglings would have trouble killing.
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You mean something more like THIS?
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That was a beautiful game, Saracen.
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why not hydras instead of roach?
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On August 04 2010 13:39 ppllzz wrote:
why not hydras instead of roach?
Reapers kill hydras mad fast since they're light. It's not worth the investment.
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I think my usual build would do decently (not against those players but against that build executed at my low diamond level).
Open fast speedling (13-14 gas into 12-13 pool) going for queen, 6 lings then drones+expand, fast speed as soon as pool pops. Second hundred gas goes to lair, next 50 goes to baneling nest during the upgrade. Then make drones/lings depending on scouting and make mutas asap.
This means a few things. For one, you don't make banelings (so you spend no gas) against reapers which accelerates your mutas and makes more mutas pop at first (notably in the strifeco game he had 12+roaches meaning some extra mutas). For two you can have roughly 4 lings to a reaper and while 10 reapers are painful, 20 speedlings on the front and 20 on the back will hurt them.
Once the mutas pop you have speedlings/baneling/muta which is the ideal composition to beat a pure bio Terran. Roaches just get hurt too much by marauders.
Another interesting thing with speedlings is to intercept reinforcements (much like countering a 2 gate).
In the machine game I think he just went for a more econ heavy build against a very aggressive 1 base. Making fewer drones and just spamming out speedlings could well be the solution. Also note that LT is a stupid map for reapers because of that retarded cliff over the natural.
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i would try turtling up with a queen and two spines contiunuously adding lings. a hatchery in the main if you can defend it and keep building lings but not over committing. no chasing the reapers just massing while teching to lair. when you have 30~ speed lings move out and try and surround the reapers. early creep tumors are key to doing this since speedlings barely out pace reapers.
what makes this strat so strong is the aggressiveness of the terran with the reapers if you can just stay calm and defend without letting your queens start chasing, then it will be much harder for him to pick them off and thus much harder for him to cause damage. zergs also get to over eager with thier lings letting them get cliffed and picked off and kited. you have to wait and save em till you have enough to stop the harrass all together.
surrounds are the key to killing reapers. one group goes around the back the other attacks head on.
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On August 04 2010 11:47 Phayze wrote:
Stike, I watched the replay and your opponent was garbage. He built his expo way late. Watch the game vs incontrol, You will see why speedlings just do not work. He is not doing the build correctly. He hadnt even expanded yet and climbed up to 900 minerals. Had not even started marauder production. by the time your mutas came. When he's supposed to attack with marauders before the spire completes. Also he stopped after 4 or 5 reapers, did not kill any queens or structure etc. This build is all about the critical mass of reapers that two shot any tech structure and even 20+ zerglings would have trouble killing.
Yeah, I have to admit he was indeed pretty bad. If I ever run into this strategy against a decent player, we'll see how it goes.
I don't very much like Zerg vs. Terran in general. If this is really as overpowered as people say it is, then bleh >.<
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Well, a Zerg just won the KOTB. ZvT isn't imba, imo.
What really sucks for me, as terran, is the fact that reapers don't shoot overlords. You can have huge vision of all the entry points to your base and speedlings to block the reapers as they jump in with creep everywhere. You'll have to add a few roaches to your composition to add in some security for an expansion, I guess that gets you into the mid game?
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On August 04 2010 14:01 ApacheChief wrote:
Well, a Zerg just won the KOTB. ZvT isn't imba, imo.
What really sucks for me, as terran, is the fact that reapers don't shoot overlords. You can have huge vision of all the entry points to your base and speedlings to block the reapers as they jump in with creep everywhere. You'll have to add a few roaches to your composition to add in some security for an expansion, I guess that gets you into the mid game?
Your conclusion doesn't necessarily follow from your premise. I'm certain that nobody tries harder than IdrA right now - he's putting his entire life into Starcraft 2. The fact that he won could also be due to the fact that he's simply better than the other players.
Not to mention that he himself said that zerg is awful somewhere on Team Liquid. I'm sure that quote will become famous soon enough.
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I play at a lower level (plat), so I haven't been up against the kind of micro that makes this build really strong, but I've seen this quite a bit lately, and I've been very successful against it by focusing on abusing burrow. Even if you can only sneak a couple of burrowed roaches here or there, two roaches popping up while he's trying to kite the obvious front roach line is a few easy kills. You don't need to build a lot of roaches as long as you can keep him from building a huge reaper ball, so every kill means another drone for you. And because roaches get free regen from being burrowed, you can really focus on force preservation and stay strong against speed reaps trying to kite your roaches. Burrow also works great with banelings, which you'll be getting anyway, since the number of rax this build requires almost forces him into some kind of bio play.
I've only lost to this a couple of times... the result of bad scouting or bad roach/burrow micro. Typically I'll stall him off with roaches while researching burrow, drone up and tech bling/lair while playing micro games, and his harass usually comes to an abrupt end when his reaper ball runs over burrowed blings or gets split and/or trapped. Then I can expo (if I FE'd) or double expo and tech while containing him with burrow blings. This also dovetails nicely with a fast burrow roach harass or attack.
The concern then is the fast switch into a marauder push off of two bases, since he's able to take his natural uncontested. Speedlings with fast infestor or muta, used in combination with burrow bling and whatever burrow roach you have left, and it's all over.
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Moonling,
Check does a great job at fending that off but that build isn't remotely similar to the build by LzGamer. Defending two quick reapers is one thing... Defending against 8 a minute or two later is another. No easy task!
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After watching the LZGamer matches, I gotta say this build looks to have no actual counter at the moment, or any especially good way of dealing with it even. In my initial analysis, I thought of it only in terms of the mild 2-4 reaper harass - not 6 or more! Then remembered the similar problem zerg faces against tanks - the smart-firing mechanism where they will not target the same zergling. And with the mobility of the reapers mixed with that, there isn't much zerg can do at the moment.
Would be interested to hear some responses from experienced zerg players who have faced this
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On August 04 2010 16:25 Iri wrote:
I play at a lower level (plat), so I haven't been up against the kind of micro that makes this build really strong, but I've seen this quite a bit lately, and I've been very successful against it by focusing on abusing burrow. Even if you can only sneak a couple of burrowed roaches here or there, two roaches popping up while he's trying to kite the obvious front roach line is a few easy kills. You don't need to build a lot of roaches as long as you can keep him from building a huge reaper ball, so every kill means another drone for you. And because roaches get free regen from being burrowed, you can really focus on force preservation and stay strong against speed reaps trying to kite your roaches. Burrow also works great with banelings, which you'll be getting anyway, since the number of rax this build requires almost forces him into some kind of bio play.
I've only lost to this a couple of times... the result of bad scouting or bad roach/burrow micro. Typically I'll stall him off with roaches while researching burrow, drone up and tech bling/lair while playing micro games, and his harass usually comes to an abrupt end when his reaper ball runs over burrowed blings or gets split and/or trapped. Then I can expo (if I FE'd) or double expo and tech while containing him with burrow blings. This also dovetails nicely with a fast burrow roach harass or attack.
The concern then is the fast switch into a marauder push off of two bases, since he's able to take his natural uncontested. Speedlings with fast infestor or muta, used in combination with burrow bling and whatever burrow roach you have left, and it's all over.
You have a rep? Reapers should be tearing you a new one long before you can get lair and burrow research, would be interesting to see.
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On August 04 2010 14:01 ApacheChief wrote:
Well, a Zerg just won the KOTB. ZvT isn't imba, imo.
What really sucks for me, as terran, is the fact that reapers don't shoot overlords. You can have huge vision of all the entry points to your base and speedlings to block the reapers as they jump in with creep everywhere. You'll have to add a few roaches to your composition to add in some security for an expansion, I guess that gets you into the mid game?
Yeah, that Zerg who won got to the finals by beating QXC. QXC is a good player, but not near IdrA's level. I'm sure Rainbow would have destroyed IdrA if they met in the finals and if he is as good as people say. (I never watched his games)
Reapers shooting Overlords would even be so dumb. Terran already has the Marine which denies all Overlord scouting until Lair tech.
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On August 05 2010 02:48 Whole wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2010 14:01 ApacheChief wrote:
Well, a Zerg just won the KOTB. ZvT isn't imba, imo.
What really sucks for me, as terran, is the fact that reapers don't shoot overlords. You can have huge vision of all the entry points to your base and speedlings to block the reapers as they jump in with creep everywhere. You'll have to add a few roaches to your composition to add in some security for an expansion, I guess that gets you into the mid game? Yeah, that Zerg who won got to the finals by beating QXC. QXC is a good player, but not near IdrA's level. I'm sure Rainbow would have destroyed IdrA if they met in the finals and if he is as good as people say. (I never watched his games) Reapers shooting Overlords would even be so dumb. Terran already has the Marine which denies all Overlord scouting until Lair tech.
I couldn't believe I read that reapers need to be strengthened more against Zerg early game either. lol
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I am just a gold level Zerg but I would try and last until I can get fungal growth. Seems like the only solution to those fuckers. Lasting that long against the fastest unit in the game that takes buildings down as fast as an Ultraliks, however, that is the problem.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Speedlings+lots of creep. You can't micro against lings on creep...
I did this build a ton months ago, it's good sure but zergs that really emphasize creep makes it a difficult game.
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EPT
