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I agree with whoever said they open 14 gas 14 pool (at least thats how i do it), and expo at 20. If you can keep that first harass off with early speedlings so you don't lose too many lings, you can then build some roaches as you tech to lair.
Then you should have speedlings for the first wave of reapers, and when they push with however many reapers they've decided to build (you say usually 8-9). you will do your best with slings and roaches. and from that if they are coming with marauder reaper you can hold it with ling/roach/sc with mutas coming if you hold off the attack?
I've only watched the videos, haven't seen it myself, so I don't know how viable holding off that marauder reaper push is with this build. I just don't think any early expand is gonna get you ling speed fast enough to save your first 6-8 lings and not burn them to the first wave of reapers. and you'll need every ling you've got to hold off the big reaper push.
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I think this build alone makes me want to switch to Protoss. Lings in decent numbers can hold it off long enough, but keeping a count on reapers and the tech switch becomes difficult. Roaches do a pretty good job, but can't keep up with the Reapers until you get a decent number in which marauder/reaper rapes face.
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On August 04 2010 12:22 Saracen wrote:You mean something more like THIS?
So this is hard to word, I havent ever doubted your words per se, but now I never can.
That game was poetry. I hope to some day get to that level. Wonderful play sir. Thank you for showing me the light on how to deal with this.
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I am a 450 point Diamond Zerg (so obviously not a pro) but my greatest success vs. reaper builds has been a 15 hatch, 14 pool. Immediately make 2 queens and play hardcore defense (immediately make a creep tumor with one of the queens instead of injecting), adding more drones and queens as you need them while you get zergling speed.
Just hang out when they start making a bunker at your expo, and wait for your first set of about 8-10 zerglings and the 2 queens to pop out to clear the bunkers out. From here you are free to set up a nice spine crawler defense and eco up. Then transition into whatever best suites your opponents build after reapers.
Also a gas steal is crucial with you scouting drone to delay the reapers, and lower their reaper numbers.
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On August 05 2010 03:46 CrunkOwns wrote:
I am a 450 point Diamond Zerg (so obviously not a pro) but my greatest success vs. reaper builds has been a 15 hatch, 14 pool. Immediately make 2 queens and play hardcore defense (immediately make a creep tumor with one of the queens instead of injecting), adding more drones and queens as you need them while you get zergling speed.
Just hang out when they start making a bunker at your expo, and wait for your first set of about 8-10 zerglings and the 2 queens to pop out to clear the bunkers out. From here you are free to set up a nice spine crawler defense and eco up. Then transition into whatever best suites your opponents build after reapers.
Also a gas steal is crucial with you scouting drone to delay the reapers, and lower their reaper numbers.
If you 15 hatch 14 pool you can usually get away with making the expo but if the terran does a 8 rax proxy reaper build you are going to be very far behind, + after you kill the bunker he gets to keep his reapers.
Gas steal does nothing, normally terrans don't move out until they have a decent amount of reapers, and they don't get their second gas until the other two rax start(or at least how I do it and I'm never short on gas+still get my expo up fast). Which in conclusions gives ample time for the first reaper to wack away at the stolen gas.
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On August 04 2010 12:22 Saracen wrote:You mean something more like THIS?
Jeez I was on the edge of my seat through that, even the breakout only left you with queens. Seems like reaper build leave zerg very little room for error.
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On August 05 2010 04:37 Flakes wrote:Jeez I was on the edge of my seat through that, even the breakout only left you with queens. Seems like reaper build leave zerg very little room for error.
All good all-in builds leave the defender with very little room for error. But if you stop the all-in, you win the game. Sure, we both made some mistakes. His reaper control wasn't top notch, and I lost a few more drones than necessary, and I didn't transfuse my roaches well during the break-out. But I think the game was played at a high enough level to show that the strategy isn't unbeatable (though, if the Terran does something like mass reaper into expand, that's a whole different matter). Anyways, to the OP, I hope that rep was what you were looking for...
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On August 05 2010 04:48 Saracen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 04:37 Flakes wrote:On August 04 2010 12:22 Saracen wrote:You mean something more like THIS? Jeez I was on the edge of my seat through that, even the breakout only left you with queens. Seems like reaper build leave zerg very little room for error. All good all-in builds leave the defender with very little room for error. But if you stop the all-in, you win the game. Sure, we both made some mistakes. His reaper control wasn't top notch, and I lost a few more drones than necessary, and I didn't transfuse my roaches well during the break-out. But I think the game was played at a high enough level to show that the strategy isn't unbeatable (though, if the Terran does something like mass reaper into expand, that's a whole different matter). Anyways, to the OP, I hope that rep was what you were looking for...
nice play, but i think torch kinda blew it
no stim or combat shields, and he had tons of idle scvs all game
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On August 05 2010 04:56 alphafuzard wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 04:48 Saracen wrote:On August 05 2010 04:37 Flakes wrote:On August 04 2010 12:22 Saracen wrote:You mean something more like THIS? Jeez I was on the edge of my seat through that, even the breakout only left you with queens. Seems like reaper build leave zerg very little room for error. All good all-in builds leave the defender with very little room for error. But if you stop the all-in, you win the game. Sure, we both made some mistakes. His reaper control wasn't top notch, and I lost a few more drones than necessary, and I didn't transfuse my roaches well during the break-out. But I think the game was played at a high enough level to show that the strategy isn't unbeatable (though, if the Terran does something like mass reaper into expand, that's a whole different matter). Anyways, to the OP, I hope that rep was what you were looking for... nice play, but i think torch kinda blew it no stim or combat shields, and he had tons of idle scvs all game
Wasn't aware of that. I didn't watch the rep  I don't know how much those tech investments would have helped though without medivac support, especially considering the time it takes to tech to stim/shields, and investing early game would have hurt his harass considerably, I'm assuming...
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I think Saracen definitely played better than Torch. Torch had a good opening but didn't really seem to know what to do after 8-9 minutes.
Torch went much more all in than I think is reasonable though, IMO it's better to stop at 6-9 reapers and transition to an expo.
You should send that replay to Husky Saracen, I bet he'd be at the top of his lungs through the entire cast.
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If you expand the creep as often as possible and keep massing speedlings it is usually enough to hold it off. Speedlings on creep are more difficult to deal with than roaches, imo.
Edit: tech into banelings, too. Don't do mutas. 99% of zergs do mutas which is not a good option.
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On August 04 2010 12:22 Saracen wrote:You mean something more like THIS?
It was a pretty good game, but that Terran didnt really do an optimal build. When you are doing a reaper rush I dont think you should sit at 500 minerals / 200 gas a long time. He was also for some reason supply blocked on the first reaper, though it probably didnt matter that much.
The Terran player could have justed walled in Zerg and expanded. The Terran player definitely should not try to walk in after there were dozens of queens/roaches/lings.
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The strength of the 3 rax reaper build is not the reapers, but rather the transition. Sure, the reapers can straight up kill you, but even if you defend sucessfully, terran is able to expand and transition into MnMnM easily without any real losses (since this denies zerg a fast hatch). At this point, Zerg either has to go all-in or play from behind.
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ive been using this build 100% in TvZ now its probably given me a 80% win rate vs zerg.
some times i win outright with reapers other times i just overwhelm them with a FE + 8 racks stim marines/maruders
most of the time when i lose its either to
1) mis micro/runnning in to army in transit
2) very good control of speedlings + a couple roaches or banelings on cliffs
some zergs just attack move with lings which = fail you MUST try to surround, and if they try to hop a cliff thats where your roaches or banelings lay waiting.
my build goes
10 supply
12 racks
12 refinery (cut 1 scv)
train 1 marine then tech
100 gas right as tech finishes (train reaper/upgrade nitro)
from here i throw down supply another gas + 2 more racks pump reapers till i have 4-5 pressure
expand and throw down another 3-4 racks
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Watching the Strifecro game it was fairly obvious that Strife could have won that even after the Reaper nonsense, yet made some play mistakes that cost him the game. You can say that LzGamer's opening and transitions weren't optimal, but neither was Strifecro's (I think you could do it with just Speedlings on creep and no Roaches). For one thing, his misuse of the Mutalisks was appalling. Running them to Lz's base to try to harass instead of simply defending/picking off Reapers and macroing up was a game changing error. It was apparent he was in "panic mode" and not really thinking properly about what to do with his units, and I think the "panic mode" aspect of this opening is what has a lot of Zerg players' panties up in a bunch!
The fact of the matter is it seems like the discussion so far has been nigh exclusively about how much damage this build does, without considering the ramifications for the Terran player. Gas gets so heavily invested in Tech Labs/Reapers/Nitro Packs and later Marauder/Stim/Concussive(?) that transitioning into any sort of higher tech (Factory and above) gets delayed significantly. The Terran player locks himself into Tier 1 until after he gets his 4th geyser up and running. Compare this with the Zerg player in this situation who can tech to Tier 2 off of a single Extractor.
Infestors seem like a solid answer. A well-placed Fungal Growth will decimate the Reaper army and can be used to delay Marauder pushes or help Speedlings get into a position to kill the ball. Someone suggested Banelings and that seems like a terrible idea to me as you're never going to be able to use them to kill Reapers resource-efficiently and they're even less efficient against Marauder balls. From Infestor tech you can transition into Hive (if he stays on this 6-8 Barracks mass Reaper/Marauder/Marine nonsense) and get a few Ultralisks to break down his door and end the game with Speedlings. Seems fairly straightforward to me.
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On August 04 2010 03:48 Phayze wrote:
You cannot hatch first. It's going to be bunkered up. And most terrans will wait for 5 to 6 reapers before they really do any harassment. That spine crawler will die in two seconds. He's not going 10 rax reaper. He's doing a standard orbital opening into 3rax reaper or some fast expand variant. I really want you to understand i'm not talking about the 10rax reaper, or even the 1barracks reaper harass into the hellion marauder push. This is a whole new build. Opens up another world of obnoxious terran builds.
You actually can hatch first... as long as it's not done on something like DO. By the time the bunker gets down and you have two reapers in your bunker (assuming 10rax), you'll have 2 queens and 8 lings. 14 hatch is my standard opening BO. It's stronger than 13 pool 15 hatch because you have two queens to fight with. Move the queens in first to tank the first shot or two before he target fires the lings. You'll also have transfusion from the first queen around the time the hatch would die if he had focus fired on it. I guess if he brought along more than he typical 2 SCVs total you would lose, but for some odd reason ppl never do that.
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Saracen, how would you have responded had he not waited a year and a half to kill the overlord in your base? It looked like that would've supply blocked you at least at one or two different points in time, plus you wouldn't know exactly what was coming. Or were you too busy to pay attention to what was coming anyway? Also, do you think you could have stood up to this attack on lost temple, or would the number of entrances have just made it too difficult (assuming a skilled opponent)?
All else aside, if you see this build you better hope you are working with a contained base.
Edit: Unfortunately it looked like you put a lot more effort into that defense than he had to put into the offense  Wonder how significant 1 or 1.5 food roaches would be...
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wat about early zergling harass to the terran's base? in hopes to buy some times from reapers to get to you, then hopefully you can build some defense against it
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From what i gather of the responses in this thread, i think the general way to stop this would be to just open speedling expand and take a later hatch at about 20+ supply. I think the main part of the build is to just have creep all around and then build your tech buildings so that they cant snipe it.
Can someone clarify whether a queen spawning creep tumor first to help spread creep be efficient? I think you wont have enough minerals to support unit production anyway
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On August 05 2010 03:31 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Speedlings+lots of creep. You can't micro against lings on creep...
I did this build a ton months ago, it's good sure but zergs that really emphasize creep makes it a difficult game.
Creep spreading + position of spawning pool makes a HUGE difference vs Reaper harrass. Reapers are most effective when they can run circles around your base and that path is going to go behind your minerals so they can pick off drones. This is somewhat map dependent but if you can block that small path with your pool you can pin them in with your slings + queen. A lot of zerg don't put their pool back there and that is a mistake vs terran imo.
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EPT
