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Viking/Banshee/Marine.
Standard econ build, 12rax/13gas/15orbital. 2nd gas before factory. Factory, reactor on Barracks, Starport, tech add on to factory, another starport, another tech add on.
Lift your factory and use it to scout. When you see what he's doing you can adjust your Viking to Banshee ratio. Always get cloak + Viking first. If you see Stargate tech you can build 2 vikings then hit with your 1 cloaked banshee, you will be able to hold any push with your marines+bunker + 2 vikings.
If you see 4 gate or 3 gate/robo, get 2 banshees then 3 vikings, then only banshees and expand. You can hold the push before you have cloak with your bunker and couple of banshees and if he does a later stronger push you can use scan/vikings to pick off his observers.
Once you take your expansion, get another orbital and throw on 3 more starports. Mass Banshees/Vikings and win.
I'm a 2250 Terran and that has worked extremely well for me.
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On May 22 2010 04:13 Bro wrote:
Viking/Banshee/Marine.
Standard econ build, 12rax/13gas/15orbital. 2nd gas before factory. Factory, reactor on Barracks, Starport, tech add on to factory, another starport, another tech add on.
Lift your factory and use it to scout. When you see what he's doing you can adjust your Viking to Banshee ratio. Always get cloak + Viking first. If you see Stargate tech you can build 2 vikings then hit with your 1 cloaked banshee, you will be able to hold any push with your marines+bunker + 2 vikings.
If you see 4 gate or 3 gate/robo, get 2 banshees then 3 vikings, then only banshees and expand. You can hold the push before you have cloak with your bunker and couple of banshees and if he does a later stronger push you can use scan/vikings to pick off his observers.
Once you take your expansion, get another orbital and throw on 3 more starports. Mass Banshees/Vikings and win.
I'm a 2250 Terran and that has worked extremely well for me.
I like your build. Can you provide a replay?
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I'm actually on the other side of the fence on this issue. I've been trying phoenixes quite a bit lately PvT, and the issue I have is with turtly terrans who macro hard mm+ghost+tank off 1 base. I specifically have issues knowing when to expo / transition to collossi. If someone can provide advice / replay on how to transition it would be great.
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I think you should giggle* when your opponent goes voidrays or phoenixes because it isn't that effective imo. It is really micro intensive for protoss to harass with phoenixes while macroing at the same time. If you just build marines and vikings than it's really easy to counter it. As a P player I usually just leave once I know my harass is ineffective because terran is so much ahead if it fails.
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On May 22 2010 04:06 xDaunt wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 22 2010 03:54 antihope wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 02:55 mrlie3 wrote:
Thanks for all these constructive answers guys. So far I see three possible counters from this discussion;
1. Cloaked Ghost
2. Cloaked Banshee
3. Turtle+Expansion
1 and 2 sound way too gimmicky, espescially if you're late scouting or are already feeling pressure from the toss. Terrans are undeniably the best turtlers, so I find it very very easy to FE after rax toss down some bunkers(still turtling just with a natural ^^), 3 or 4 more raxs and then just steamroll him after your nat is up and running. If he resists the push, just hold your natural (dont salvage the bunkers immediately after pushing out!) and get your starport up. Ravens, banshees, and vikings are all very good against this comp. I would impressed to see a toss resist the 5 rax push with ghosts if he is spending so much money on phoenixes, which is going to be negated by an infantry heavy army. If the toss is properly using the phoenix build, he'll see the 5 rax push coming well in advance to be prepared for it. In other words, he's not going to stupidly sink all of his resources into phoenixes. Just because the toss has a stargate does not mean that he has to build anything from it. That's the beauty of the build. It gives the toss perfect information on what the terran is doing, denies the terran the same unless the terran wants to burn scans, and gives the toss early map control. All of this allows the protoss to transition out of phoenixes and into something more appropriate and sustainable in the long run. I think this is the key point that a lot of you are missing in this thread.The phoenixes are merely the means to this end. They are not the end, itself. This is also why I strongly advise against using quick banshees against a phoenix opening. A good toss will see it coming and will have observers ready. A terran tried banshees against me last night and I stuffed him outright because I saw it coming with plenty of warning to prepare.
I'm not disagreeing at all. Banshees would be disastrous in this situation. In fact I think Nony is correct as usual in stating that you shouldn't go too heavily towards anything. I've not played against high plat using this so take this all with a grain of salt, but I don't feel the terran is really at any severe disadvantage UNLESS he tries to go for a gimmicky win. I won't complain about being 'forced' to 2 base, and 2 OC's mean I will have almost as much intelligence as the toss, obviously not as much but I'll get to see the key things. I've yet to see collosus in this BO and so Nony has definitely put that in the back of my mind for next time.
I think it's safe to say that tanks ARE going to be neutralized by the phoenix, assuming more than one are made (which the toss is going to let you know about via scv sniping), so naturally you will have some extra gas and I really like the raven and the ghost in this position. The raven more so if you see mid game stalkers, otherwise the PDD is only for the phoenix and is wasteful. Ghost play with the upgraded 25 energy to start (especially since its almost free now that shield+stim is 100/100 cheaper) is definitely key.
I take back the sortof 'instawin' attitude my previous post implied but am still firm in that the terran is still on equal footing if he can manage to take and defend his natural from the first push. It will just come down to army comp and decisions on when and where to engage. But without the expansion you're going to get overrun for sure.
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On May 22 2010 04:20 link0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 04:13 Bro wrote:
Viking/Banshee/Marine.
Standard econ build, 12rax/13gas/15orbital. 2nd gas before factory. Factory, reactor on Barracks, Starport, tech add on to factory, another starport, another tech add on.
Lift your factory and use it to scout. When you see what he's doing you can adjust your Viking to Banshee ratio. Always get cloak + Viking first. If you see Stargate tech you can build 2 vikings then hit with your 1 cloaked banshee, you will be able to hold any push with your marines+bunker + 2 vikings.
If you see 4 gate or 3 gate/robo, get 2 banshees then 3 vikings, then only banshees and expand. You can hold the push before you have cloak with your bunker and couple of banshees and if he does a later stronger push you can use scan/vikings to pick off his observers.
Once you take your expansion, get another orbital and throw on 3 more starports. Mass Banshees/Vikings and win.
I'm a 2250 Terran and that has worked extremely well for me. I like your build. Can you provide a replay?
I will post a couple as soon as this patch gets downloaded. Buff terran again? Thanks blizzard.
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On May 22 2010 04:06 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 03:54 antihope wrote:On May 22 2010 02:55 mrlie3 wrote:
Thanks for all these constructive answers guys. So far I see three possible counters from this discussion;
1. Cloaked Ghost
2. Cloaked Banshee
3. Turtle+Expansion
1 and 2 sound way too gimmicky, espescially if you're late scouting or are already feeling pressure from the toss. Terrans are undeniably the best turtlers, so I find it very very easy to FE after rax toss down some bunkers(still turtling just with a natural ^^), 3 or 4 more raxs and then just steamroll him after your nat is up and running. If he resists the push, just hold your natural (dont salvage the bunkers immediately after pushing out!) and get your starport up. Ravens, banshees, and vikings are all very good against this comp. I would impressed to see a toss resist the 5 rax push with ghosts if he is spending so much money on phoenixes, which is going to be negated by an infantry heavy army. If the toss is properly using the phoenix build, he'll see the 5 rax push coming well in advance to be prepared for it. In other words, he's not going to stupidly sink all of his resources into phoenixes. Just because the toss has a stargate does not mean that he has to build anything from it. That's the beauty of the build. It gives the toss perfect information on what the terran is doing, denies the terran the same unless the terran wants to burn scans, and gives the toss early map control. All of this allows the protoss to transition out of phoenixes and into something more appropriate and sustainable in the long run. I think this is the key point that a lot of you are missing in this thread.The phoenixes are merely the means to this end. They are not the end, itself. This is also why I strongly advise against using quick banshees against a phoenix opening. A good toss will see it coming and will have observers ready. A terran tried banshees against me last night and I stuffed him outright because I saw it coming with plenty of warning to prepare.
+1 all the way. Strength of the Phoenix+Gateway build is that it gives 1) map control; and 2) god's eye with Phoenix. This gives Protoss as much flexibility as Terran's 1/1/1 production, maybe even more.
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On May 21 2010 13:25 Sevenofnines wrote:
You can try Gretorp's Marine/Ghost opening. EMP makes the Phoenixes wasted food against a ground army, as well as softening up his Gateway units. Make a couple bunkers at your choke if needed, and turrets by your mineral line if he tries to fly by.
Yeah this should really crush it.
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On May 22 2010 04:13 Bro wrote:
Viking/Banshee/Marine.
Standard econ build, 12rax/13gas/15orbital. 2nd gas before factory. Factory, reactor on Barracks, Starport, tech add on to factory, another starport, another tech add on.
Lift your factory and use it to scout. When you see what he's doing you can adjust your Viking to Banshee ratio. Always get cloak + Viking first. If you see Stargate tech you can build 2 vikings then hit with your 1 cloaked banshee, you will be able to hold any push with your marines+bunker + 2 vikings.
If you see 4 gate or 3 gate/robo, get 2 banshees then 3 vikings, then only banshees and expand. You can hold the push before you have cloak with your bunker and couple of banshees and if he does a later stronger push you can use scan/vikings to pick off his observers.
Once you take your expansion, get another orbital and throw on 3 more starports. Mass Banshees/Vikings and win.
I'm a 2250 Terran and that has worked extremely well for me.
this build is extremely hard to deal as protoss...I guess high templar might be a solution to this build but haven't tried it out yet...
I lost to this build quite a few times =(
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On May 21 2010 13:18 avilo wrote:yep, you just said every counter there is. Mainly the 1/1/1 aka raven opening. reactored marines, viking production, and accumulate tanks/hellions. I have played versus this phoenix build a lot now, and I can tell you that the protoss is going to be going heavy zealots a majority of the time when he keeps accumulating phoenix/void rays. so keep up viking production, and marine production, as well as tanks, and get a second fact and switch it to your reactor for igniter hellions and push out. Around that timing Protoss will usually have their natural just getting up and running -> which you will kill  it's not so easy as I make it sound (lol) but that is the general idea. And never leave your base too early, or you're going to be phoenix backstabbed and lose like 10+ scvs
This definitely doesn't make much sense, though I think you have a decent idea..
Anyone who goes phoenixes as P isn't going for any macro game, at least not without doing a ton of damage EARLY, where your build is kind of at a dead end. As P you can easily support 3 gate phoenix, where you will have around 4-5 phoenixes when you attempt to break the Terran. Most of the time Terrans are still struggling hard to pump out enough tanks to defend a push, and at most will have like 2 bunkers. Bunkers don't really make a difference though against a push like this mainly because all your damage is in your 2-3 tanks, being lifted by the phoenixes, while the zealots and stalkers kill both bunkers in like 2-3 volleys at the most a piece.
It hardly gives time to get hellions out, which do nothing vs stalkers.
Another thing, a good build will contain more than half stalkers with just some zealots to tank while you break the base. I haven't been stopped hardly ever, if ever in a meaningful match... Protoss one base play is just so hard to judge because of stargate tech.
If you go for fast banshee, you can just scout the T base with your first 2 phoenixes and push in before he would get cloak. Just seems like it needs some adjusting to me.
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On May 22 2010 06:37 mrlie3 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 04:06 xDaunt wrote:On May 22 2010 03:54 antihope wrote:On May 22 2010 02:55 mrlie3 wrote:
Thanks for all these constructive answers guys. So far I see three possible counters from this discussion;
1. Cloaked Ghost
2. Cloaked Banshee
3. Turtle+Expansion
1 and 2 sound way too gimmicky, espescially if you're late scouting or are already feeling pressure from the toss. Terrans are undeniably the best turtlers, so I find it very very easy to FE after rax toss down some bunkers(still turtling just with a natural ^^), 3 or 4 more raxs and then just steamroll him after your nat is up and running. If he resists the push, just hold your natural (dont salvage the bunkers immediately after pushing out!) and get your starport up. Ravens, banshees, and vikings are all very good against this comp. I would impressed to see a toss resist the 5 rax push with ghosts if he is spending so much money on phoenixes, which is going to be negated by an infantry heavy army. If the toss is properly using the phoenix build, he'll see the 5 rax push coming well in advance to be prepared for it. In other words, he's not going to stupidly sink all of his resources into phoenixes. Just because the toss has a stargate does not mean that he has to build anything from it. That's the beauty of the build. It gives the toss perfect information on what the terran is doing, denies the terran the same unless the terran wants to burn scans, and gives the toss early map control. All of this allows the protoss to transition out of phoenixes and into something more appropriate and sustainable in the long run. I think this is the key point that a lot of you are missing in this thread.The phoenixes are merely the means to this end. They are not the end, itself. This is also why I strongly advise against using quick banshees against a phoenix opening. A good toss will see it coming and will have observers ready. A terran tried banshees against me last night and I stuffed him outright because I saw it coming with plenty of warning to prepare. +1 all the way. Strength of the Phoenix+Gateway build is that it gives 1) map control; and 2) god's eye with Phoenix. This gives Protoss as much flexibility as Terran's 1/1/1 production, maybe even more.
I dont think so, since the time and ressources spent are definitely more than a couple of scans would consume. after a phoenix opening the protoss can stay on stargates (probably not) or transition to either robotics or gates or templars. but he actually still has to decide where to go while a terran 1/1/1 opening allready has everything besides ghosts and BCs.
even with the phoenix opening: the P players tech is still far more restricted. so i dont think this is the advantage of it. i think the mapcontrol and scouting part is the advantage.
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I have yet to loose a TvP with gretorp's ghost-marine build. Its... just brilliant! And when he reacts by getting collosi, (which he will, if he hasn't lost already), simply add more marauders into the mix, and get vikings.
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On May 22 2010 07:01 The6357 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 04:13 Bro wrote:
Viking/Banshee/Marine.
Standard econ build, 12rax/13gas/15orbital. 2nd gas before factory. Factory, reactor on Barracks, Starport, tech add on to factory, another starport, another tech add on.
Lift your factory and use it to scout. When you see what he's doing you can adjust your Viking to Banshee ratio. Always get cloak + Viking first. If you see Stargate tech you can build 2 vikings then hit with your 1 cloaked banshee, you will be able to hold any push with your marines+bunker + 2 vikings.
If you see 4 gate or 3 gate/robo, get 2 banshees then 3 vikings, then only banshees and expand. You can hold the push before you have cloak with your bunker and couple of banshees and if he does a later stronger push you can use scan/vikings to pick off his observers.
Once you take your expansion, get another orbital and throw on 3 more starports. Mass Banshees/Vikings and win.
I'm a 2250 Terran and that has worked extremely well for me. this build is extremely hard to deal as protoss...I guess high templar might be a solution to this build but haven't tried it out yet... I lost to this build quite a few times =(
Templar is a pretty decent counter. Blink Stalkers into templar.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 22 2010 04:06 xDaunt wrote:
If the toss is properly using the phoenix build, he'll see the 5 rax push coming well in advance to be prepared for it. In other words, he's not going to stupidly sink all of his resources into phoenixes. Just because the toss has a stargate does not mean that he has to build anything from it. That's the beauty of the build. It gives the toss perfect information on what the terran is doing, denies the terran the same unless the terran wants to burn scans, and gives the toss early map control. All of this allows the protoss to transition out of phoenixes and into something more appropriate and sustainable in the long run. I think this is the key point that a lot of you are missing in this thread.The phoenixes are merely the means to this end. They are not the end, itself.
This is also why I strongly advise against using quick banshees against a phoenix opening. A good toss will see it coming and will have observers ready. A terran tried banshees against me last night and I stuffed him outright because I saw it coming with plenty of warning to prepare.
Agree with this. The phoenixes themselves won't kill you, but it will have you scrambling and then the Toss transitions with macro advantage and ends the game. Hence why I don't feel Vikings are that great since they are pretty much useless against most transitions. Making too many Marines is simply asking for Colossi, and Thors can be easily countered by Voidrays which he has the Stargates for already. Hence, I still prefer the Ghost option against this build since EMP is good against everything Toss has so they will still be very useful no matter what the Toss player transitions to.
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On May 22 2010 12:02 Sevenofnines wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 22 2010 04:06 xDaunt wrote:
If the toss is properly using the phoenix build, he'll see the 5 rax push coming well in advance to be prepared for it. In other words, he's not going to stupidly sink all of his resources into phoenixes. Just because the toss has a stargate does not mean that he has to build anything from it. That's the beauty of the build. It gives the toss perfect information on what the terran is doing, denies the terran the same unless the terran wants to burn scans, and gives the toss early map control. All of this allows the protoss to transition out of phoenixes and into something more appropriate and sustainable in the long run. I think this is the key point that a lot of you are missing in this thread.The phoenixes are merely the means to this end. They are not the end, itself.
This is also why I strongly advise against using quick banshees against a phoenix opening. A good toss will see it coming and will have observers ready. A terran tried banshees against me last night and I stuffed him outright because I saw it coming with plenty of warning to prepare. Agree with this. The phoenixes themselves won't kill you, but it will have you scrambling and then the Toss transitions with macro advantage and ends the game. Hence why I don't feel Vikings are that great since they are pretty much useless against most transitions. Making too many Marines is simply asking for Colossi, and Thors can be easily countered by Voidrays which he has the Stargates for already. Hence, I still prefer the Ghost option against this build since EMP is good against everything Toss has so they will still be very useful no matter what the Toss player transitions to.
you say that too many marines is asking for colossi and at the same time you say that vikings are useless against most transitions? also you forget that they can help you to keep his economy low.
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On May 22 2010 12:02 Sevenofnines wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 22 2010 04:06 xDaunt wrote:
If the toss is properly using the phoenix build, he'll see the 5 rax push coming well in advance to be prepared for it. In other words, he's not going to stupidly sink all of his resources into phoenixes. Just because the toss has a stargate does not mean that he has to build anything from it. That's the beauty of the build. It gives the toss perfect information on what the terran is doing, denies the terran the same unless the terran wants to burn scans, and gives the toss early map control. All of this allows the protoss to transition out of phoenixes and into something more appropriate and sustainable in the long run. I think this is the key point that a lot of you are missing in this thread.The phoenixes are merely the means to this end. They are not the end, itself.
This is also why I strongly advise against using quick banshees against a phoenix opening. A good toss will see it coming and will have observers ready. A terran tried banshees against me last night and I stuffed him outright because I saw it coming with plenty of warning to prepare. Agree with this. The phoenixes themselves won't kill you, but it will have you scrambling and then the Toss transitions with macro advantage and ends the game. Hence why I don't feel Vikings are that great since they are pretty much useless against most transitions. Making too many Marines is simply asking for Colossi, and Thors can be easily countered by Voidrays which he has the Stargates for already. Hence, I still prefer the Ghost option against this build since EMP is good against everything Toss has so they will still be very useful no matter what the Toss player transitions to.
Building too many marines against toss is bad for a lot of reasons, not just the inevitable switch to colossi or high templar. Building too many marines for an early-mid game push (like a marine/tank/raven push) is just asking for guardian shield abuse. After your tanks get lifted, your only dps will come from your marines, which guardian shield will reduce by 1/3. You're simply going to get torn up by protoss ground troops.
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I find the use of phoenixes vs terran intriguing, but I have yet to try it (was ~1500 toss plat), as the 150 min 100 gas investment for a phoenix seems a bit high. Against terran I think it could work the first fight you use it, but the next time the terran will expect them and plan accordingly; some stimmed rines or a thor will take down any phoenixes channeling their graviton beam very quickly, or simply EMPing them will render them completely useless
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Do as the handsome do. E M P
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With the new changes to buff marines in Patch 13, I have found it easier to counter early phoenix(es)? (phoeni? not sure of the plural of phoenix) by just accumulating a small amount of marines to handle air drops/harass in general. As well as a few well placed turrets, any phoenix attacks to your mineral line will end in disaster for them while not forcing you to over-commit to building mass marines to get eaten alive by a protoss army with guardian shield.
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On May 21 2010 13:25 Sevenofnines wrote:
You can try Gretorp's Marine/Ghost opening. EMP makes the Phoenixes wasted food against a ground army, as well as softening up his Gateway units. Make a couple bunkers at your choke if needed, and turrets by your mineral line if he tries to fly by.
Seconded, had much success with Gretorps ghost/marine opening against Protoss.
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EPT
