EPTTerran vs. Phoenix + Gateway units... Any counter? - Page 2
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clik
United States319 Posts
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teekesselchen
Germany886 Posts
On May 21 2010 23:10 DeMusliM wrote: it's good to get a ghost to EMP the phoenix so they have no mana, thus they can't lift off anything, and if they have something lifted - it will cancel that. Does it? Wow thats cool. I was struggling so hard to get my 1fac 1port 4rax FE through against phoenixes since they always went lifting my tanks, now I'm just gonna add a ghost earlier. | ||
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shiftY803
200 Posts
Seriously though, as a Toss/Zerg player, I don't do "the phoenix build" that often against terran. They just throw up a couple turrets, get some stimmed marines, etc. Sure, I can pick off an SCV here, maybe a marauder there. Honestly though, they are so expensive, the terran player can easily take advantage of my expenditures on phoenix to push or expand. They are really good versus tank, but that does not make them imba. Against zerg, they are much more effective, because you have overlords to kill. | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
As far as protecting your base it's not too diff than vs Muta (except you don't get a thor). You can either turret up your line or leave a group of marines (instead of a thor) in your base. Personally i'd be happy if I hit this build. Edit: After watching the replay your army composition was just meh imo. The vikings were completely useless and the thor was a waste of money. You already turret up your base so scv harass should be minimal (wasn't an issue in this game). For the cost of those vikings and thor you could of gotten more MM. The medivacs might get some phoenix hits but considering how high the dps of MM (+ tank) is I doubt they would destroy more than one MM before they started getting shot down by the marines. Also i'm really dubious about pushing out with a force like that without at LEAST shield upgrade. I know you didn't get a tech lab rax but it would of made a world of difference. Stim wouldn't work too well without healing for rines but shield could of made a huge difference. If you delay that same push a couple of min while getting more marines while you upgrade shield (and pref +1 wep too) it would of been much more effective imo. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On May 22 2010 00:52 xDaunt wrote: One thor might kill one or two phoenixes during the entire fight becase phoenixes have so much hp. If you wait to push out with two thors and a raven, you won't be in the early game anymore (unless you heavily cut your other units and upgrades, in which case you're screwed anyway) and the protoss will already have expanded and be macroing a large gateway army. Marines by themselves won't do crap against zealots that are covered by guardian shield. Also, the PDD is not going to help that much. The point of the phoenix isn't necessarily to do damage to the terran army. The point is that the phoenix can disable key terran units, thereby allowing the gateways units (predominantly the zealot mass) to engage the terran army. The better play for the terran is to play the macro game and expand. Competing on one base against a protoss isn't going to go well. and the thor doesn't have so much hp? If toss already has an expo up when you have 2 thors and a raven, you are terrible. And phoenix can't disable thor, it's massive. I'm guessing you haven't played against thors, or haven't used thors yourself. basically I disagree with everything you said, for reasons already explained. | ||
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starcraft911
Korea (South)1263 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On May 22 2010 01:29 BlasiuS wrote: and the thor doesn't have so much hp? If toss already has an expo up when you have 2 thors and a raven, you are terrible. And phoenix can't disable thor, it's massive. I'm guessing you haven't played against thors, or haven't used thors yourself. basically I disagree with everything you said, for reasons already explained. Yes, I have played against the thors using the phoenix build. I do not need to lift the thor. I just need to lift hellions and marauders. My zealots (with a sentry/stalker support) take care of the rest. I neither need nor want to kill the thors first. In fact, the thors are the last things that die. I think you're misunderstanding the issue. It really does not matter what the terran gets against the protoss player when he goes phoenix + gateway units. If the terran decides to stay on one base, he's going to have problems. If the terran pushes out early, he's going to get run over by a gate+phoenix build because of the sheer amount of units that a protoss player can field early on. If he techs up on one base, he's going to be horribly out-macro'd by the protoss player who will see exactly what the terran player is doing and take an early expansion while the terran is still in the dark. The best way to go for the terran is to take the natural and bunker up a bit. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On May 22 2010 01:52 xDaunt wrote: It really does not matter what the terran gets against the protoss player when he goes phoenix + gateway units. You think a phoenix opening is unbeatable? Of course not. Don't post garbage. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On May 22 2010 01:58 BlasiuS wrote: You think a phoenix opening is unbeatable? Of course not. Don't post garbage. Are you even reading what I'm saying? I never claimed that the phoenix build is unbeatable. I gave the exact, proper response for beating it: take an expo, bunker up, and play the macro game. You obviously don't even understand how or why the phoenix build works. It's not about directly countering specific terran army compositions. What the phoenix build does is ensure the protoss player early game map control and perfect scouting, thereby allowing a protoss to either, A) take an early expansion safely, or B) punish a terran player that is foolish enough to push out early off of one base. What the phoenix build can't do is allow the protoss player to successfully, directly attack a terran hardpoint (ie bunkers and fortified chokepoints). Therefore, all the terran needs to do is expand and bunker. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On May 22 2010 02:07 xDaunt wrote: Are you even reading what I'm saying? I never claimed that the phoenix build is unbeatable. I gave the exact, proper response for beating it: take an expo, bunker up, and play the macro game. You obviously don't even understand how or why the phoenix build works. It's not about directly countering specific terran army compositions. What the phoenix build does is ensure the protoss player early game map control and perfect scouting, thereby allowing a protoss to either, A) take an early expansion safely, or B) punish a terran player that is foolish enough to push out early off of one base. What the phoenix build can't do is allow the protoss player to successfully, directly attack a terran hardpoint (ie bunkers and fortified chokepoints). Therefore, all the terran needs to do is expand and bunker. Of course I'm not reading what you're saying. I stopped reading here: On May 22 2010 01:52 xDaunt wrote: It really does not matter what the terran gets against the protoss player when he goes phoenix + gateway units. expoing is NOT the only way to beat phoenix. | ||
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fidey
United States46 Posts
Marine Marauder Tank simply eats up Zealot Stalker Pheonix Marines kill Pheonixes Marauders and Tanks destroy infantry Pheonixes are also a large investment, just scout out the stargate and pump marines and you should be fine | ||
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PacketOverflow
United States80 Posts
Ghosts Vikings If the Protoss is going air, you should probably have at least two of these units in your army working in cohesion. Also if the Protoss is committing to a decent number of Phoenix, his Stalker count will be low most likely. Suppliment your army with some Hellions. Other than that it's down to micro and positioning. | ||
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dudeman001
United States2412 Posts
When fighting phoenix you can try using vikings, but just massing marines and getting marauders in there too to deal with ground can stop protoss. If protoss masses and gets just 8 phoenix, that's 1200/800... that's the same as not having 8 stalkers and 4 sentries just based on resource value. And if you mix in ghosts later on, just get cloak when you move out, he might not even have a robotics. EMP the phoenix before you engage and now protoss has expensive paper airplanes. | ||
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mrlie3
Canada350 Posts
1. Cloaked Ghost 2. Cloaked Banshee 3. Turtle+Expansion By pursuing Stargate, Protoss lacks detection early, so early harass with cloaked Banshee sounds good while Terran safely expands. Problem on this build would be that Banshees can't outrun Phoenixes so once it runs out of energy you're in trouble. Ghost's EMP also nullifies Phoenix's ability, but cloaking is necessary as Phoenix can easily lift of Ghost first and take it out. Since Phoenix can't lift buildings, expanding with Bunker and Turret also make sense. Later on Phoenix's effectiveness will be minimal thanks to massive amount of Marines Terran can accumulate relative to Phoenixes, which should put Terran at advantage. I think after patch 13 Voidrays won't be much of a problem as much as current version. So the TvP game should be a bit balanced imo. | ||
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link0
United States1071 Posts
1. It allows for awesome scouting. 2. It is VERY effective against the MM tank build. 3. It is less strong against mass MMG builds. In that case, you only build one and use it for scouting purposes only. Still not a waste. | ||
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stroggos
New Zealand1543 Posts
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mrlie3
Canada350 Posts
On May 22 2010 03:27 stroggos wrote: vikings beat pheonix, you already have a starport. ???? profit. Vikings do not beat Phoenix. They have about the same DPS and Phoenix has higher HP while Viking has higher range. In the end, Phoenix has slightly more edge because even though Viking has more range, it is alot slower than Phoenix so it cannot run away while Phoenix can perform moving shot or run away easily. | ||
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antihope
United States42 Posts
On May 22 2010 02:55 mrlie3 wrote: Thanks for all these constructive answers guys. So far I see three possible counters from this discussion; 1. Cloaked Ghost 2. Cloaked Banshee 3. Turtle+Expansion 1 and 2 sound way too gimmicky, espescially if you're late scouting or are already feeling pressure from the toss. Terrans are undeniably the best turtlers, so I find it very very easy to FE after rax toss down some bunkers(still turtling just with a natural ^^), 3 or 4 more raxs and then just steamroll him after your nat is up and running. If he resists the push, just hold your natural (dont salvage the bunkers immediately after pushing out!) and get your starport up. Ravens, banshees, and vikings are all very good against this comp. I would impressed to see a toss resist the 5 rax push with ghosts if he is spending so much money on phoenixes, which is going to be negated by an infantry heavy army. | ||
NonY
8751 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On May 22 2010 03:54 antihope wrote: 1 and 2 sound way too gimmicky, espescially if you're late scouting or are already feeling pressure from the toss. Terrans are undeniably the best turtlers, so I find it very very easy to FE after rax toss down some bunkers(still turtling just with a natural ^^), 3 or 4 more raxs and then just steamroll him after your nat is up and running. If he resists the push, just hold your natural (dont salvage the bunkers immediately after pushing out!) and get your starport up. Ravens, banshees, and vikings are all very good against this comp. I would impressed to see a toss resist the 5 rax push with ghosts if he is spending so much money on phoenixes, which is going to be negated by an infantry heavy army. If the toss is properly using the phoenix build, he'll see the 5 rax push coming well in advance to be prepared for it. In other words, he's not going to stupidly sink all of his resources into phoenixes. Just because the toss has a stargate does not mean that he has to build anything from it. That's the beauty of the build. It gives the toss perfect information on what the terran is doing, denies the terran the same unless the terran wants to burn scans, and gives the toss early map control. All of this allows the protoss to transition out of phoenixes and into something more appropriate and sustainable in the long run. I think this is the key point that a lot of you are missing in this thread.The phoenixes are merely the means to this end. They are not the end, itself. This is also why I strongly advise against using quick banshees against a phoenix opening. A good toss will see it coming and will have observers ready. A terran tried banshees against me last night and I stuffed him outright because I saw it coming with plenty of warning to prepare. | ||
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