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If Voidrays weren't enough, now I see more and more Platinum Protoss players going for Phoenix build to lift off key units and pick off any ground units with Zealots and Stalkers. Because I scout his Stargate, I am forced to opt for Starport to get Vikings fast, and when I see Phoenix (which wins against Vikings in equal numbers btw) I am baffled to know what kind of unit compositions are needed with my 1/1/1 production buildings.
For obvious reason I can't go for Marauders and Tanks because they will be lifted off first and get died easily by Stalkers. I've tried Thors but they kill off Phoenix too slowly. Unlike Mutalisk, Phoenix has more HP and does not stack well so the splash damage from Thor is minimal. This leaves my ground army (usually Marines and a few Hellions) to be destroyed by Zealots and Stalkers. I could let Thor to attack ground army first, but 1 or 2 Thors' firepower isn't enough to kill all ground armies. Hellions will also get lifted off and usually Vikings and Marines do not have enough DPS to kill Phoenixes fast; leaving Stalkers to kill off my lifted units relatively quickly, and even though I take out all Phoenixes, all I have now are Vikings which then lose to Stalkers.
So the problem is, presence of Stargate forces me to have 1 rax, 1 fact, and 1 starport because I needed to get Vikings and Marines fast for possible Voidrays. Protoss then abuses this unit composition and go heavy ground units and 3 or 4 Phoenixes to lift off key units. Even if I see the first Phoenix scouting, I can't stop producing Vikings and Marines because toss can always produce Voidrays.
So is there any viable counter to Phoenix + Gateway units?
EDIT: Here is the replay because the thread was locked before. This thread was supposed to be discussion not help though..
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I feel P excels in 1 base situations like this because they can simply build MORE than a T can on 1 base. They get their econ to full saturation far before T can whilst teching/building a ground force, etc. I'm pretty convinced there are more nerfs coming for P in the future.
But all that aside: I've had success using bunkers. Phoenixes can't lift units they can't target. That in conjunction with sneaking an expo with a PF and/or going really fast cloaked banshee can be extremely effective.
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yep, you just said every counter there is. Mainly the 1/1/1 aka raven opening. reactored marines, viking production, and accumulate tanks/hellions.
I have played versus this phoenix build a lot now, and I can tell you that the protoss is going to be going heavy zealots a majority of the time when he keeps accumulating phoenix/void rays.
so keep up viking production, and marine production, as well as tanks, and get a second fact and switch it to your reactor for igniter hellions and push out. Around that timing Protoss will usually have their natural just getting up and running -> which you will kill 
it's not so easy as I make it sound (lol) but that is the general idea. And never leave your base too early, or you're going to be phoenix backstabbed and lose like 10+ scvs
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Each phoenix costs the Protoss 150/100, which is a pretty hefty investment. I feel that adding another barracks and using a primary infantry army with a smattering of vikings should hold up pretty well. Depending on your opponent's stalker count, you can either choose to make hellions out of your factory or not.
If your opponent has enough phoenix to actually pose a significant danger to your vikings, abuse their superior range and keep your vikings tucked safely away above your marines, which will obliterate the phoenixes if they choose to engage. Keep in mind that during any fight, if the phoenix is lifting anything less than a siege tank, it's a less than favorable trade-off of resources for the Protoss.
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Just destoryed this build using my tank rine thor build. Thors plus a reactor rax pumping marines is very effcient vs any stargate play. The thors range is just like a viking, so as long as you keep your rines close by you have great anti air. This all done with a wall off as well to help prevent the gateway units getting in. From there on I do an engineering bay with turrets and an expo. The trick to beating air is to play defenseive and then push out when the time is right. The second OC helps so much with scans as you can keep tabs on their army size to help you determine when you can push out.
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You can try Gretorp's Marine/Ghost opening. EMP makes the Phoenixes wasted food against a ground army, as well as softening up his Gateway units. Make a couple bunkers at your choke if needed, and turrets by your mineral line if he tries to fly by.
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Hmm, I guess I need to play defensively with bunkers and accumulate enough hellions, marines, and tanks to the point where few phoenixes are ineffective to my biomech composition...
I don't want toss to give out too much map control though. =/ Hellion harass ftw I guess.
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some people have problems dealing with air units.. moving all of your units in one control group is almost always the cause of this problem.
think about how you should be playing better, not which counter units to make
what does a good protoss player do when you attack with banshees (better at both harass and engaging ground armies)? try to watch replays of how they control their ground units.
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Braavos36374 Posts
Thread is now unlocked, replay in OP.
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On May 21 2010 15:05 Hot_Bid wrote:
Thread is now unlocked, replay in OP.
ty Hot_Bid
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it's good to get a ghost to EMP the phoenix so they have no mana, thus they can't lift off anything,
and if they have something lifted - it will cancel that.
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Get a few turrets up, take your natural, and throw down a few bunkers. The phoenix+gateway army excels in open areas, but it's not particularly useful for attacking a terran hardpoint. From my experience using the build, I've never seen a terran match my forces pound for pound in the early game and I've always been able to take early map control. Just play it safe until you're able to get your tech and macro online. Phoenixes become less effective as the terran army grows. Also, if the protoss player invests too much into phoenixes, then he'll be delaying his HT/colossi tech, which he'll eventually need to fight your army.
You can try using hellions against the protoss because his army will be zealot heavy, but they'll get lifted by smart protoss players.
In summary, if you push out too early against a protoss who uses phoenixes+gateway units, you're going to have a bad day. Be patient, take your natural, and push out when you have a more sizeable force.
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Bunker up and 2 base BC + viking with raven support, im not shitting you it always works.
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If phoenix are giving you trouble, get thors. Thors hard counter phoenix since they are light air, and they are immune to gravitron beam. Also they are not especially weak against the other gateway units.
oh and after patch 13, they will be able to trample force fields
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first the void ray is to imba now the phoenix ... cant wait until terra complains about the mothership being to strong.
Maybe you terrans should play more and whine less. At first even the high tier terran complain about void rays like they are the ultimate weapon of doom. After figuiring out how to counter them even Frozenarbiter stated they were fine the way they are.
I mean seriously you have hands down the strongest Anti Air with Thor and viking... what else do you need.
I'm sure I get a ban for this but sometimes you just gotta state the obvious...
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 22 2010 00:01 BlasiuS wrote:If phoenix are giving you trouble, get thors. Thors hard counter phoenix since they are light air, and they are immune to gravitron beam. They are not especially weak against anything. oh and after patch 13, they will be able to trample force fields
Thors really do not do as well as you'd think because they aren't able to kill the phoenix's fast enough. Plus, they're huge investments for the terran player that will take the place of other ground units that are needed to fight the protoss army.
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On May 22 2010 00:06 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 00:01 BlasiuS wrote:If phoenix are giving you trouble, get thors. Thors hard counter phoenix since they are light air, and they are immune to gravitron beam. They are not especially weak against anything. oh and after patch 13, they will be able to trample force fields Thors really do not do as well as you'd think because they aren't able to kill the phoenix's fast enough. Plus, they're huge investments for the terran player that will take the place of other ground units that are needed to fight the protoss army.
disagree, thors can fight the protoss army just fine, and you only need 1 or 2 thor in order to counter 5-6 phoenix.
marine/thor/hellion should take out a zealot/sentry/phoenix army just fine in the early game. If you opened with the 1/1/1 build you should also have a raven that you can use to cast PDD as well, with some vikings on the way.
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On May 22 2010 00:04 deo.deo wrote:
first the void ray is to imba now the phoenix ... cant wait until terra complains about the mothership being to strong.
Maybe you terrans should play more and whine less. At first even the high tier terran complain about void rays like they are the ultimate weapon of doom. After figuiring out how to counter them even Frozenarbiter stated they were fine the way they are.
I mean seriously you have hands down the strongest Anti Air with Thor and viking... what else do you need.
I'm sure I get a ban for this but sometimes you just gotta state the obvious...
I'm not sure the OP was crying imba as you suggest, but like louder said, sometimes it can be difficult to match a 1 base toss on one of your own. Most T won't enjoy giving up map control, and I think this leads them to make pushes at the wrong time. Without looking at the long term options for that game, they'll say, "I couldnt have had any more X or Y or Z units, this is the strongest push I had and it gets beat every time!" When really you should just acknowledge that means it was probably a bad timing.
I'm only gold atm, but I've had a ridiculous amount of success vs toss using the 1rax->FE->4rax+Fact. Make sure to build 2 or 3 bunkers at your nat, even if you walled off decent toss will know when to push as your OC is landing. Also, dont do this on a map with backdoor destructible rocks... lol.. I make that mistake too much.
If he's building an army you just cant beat at X minutes into the game, best option is to build an econ he wont be able to match and learn how to fend off the push (much like most terrans now do vs VR rush)
:edit: also, tossing up a ghost academy after you get the 4 rax up and planting a ghost near your mineral line ( you can actually hide him behind a barracks or maybe even the OC) is an awesome way to nullify the massive scv rape-age from the phoenixes. But honestly thats just a minor inconvenience when your on 2 bases with mules, the mules should be able to cover for most of the lost econ till you get more scvs built and maybe a turret or two.
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On May 22 2010 00:18 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 00:06 xDaunt wrote:On May 22 2010 00:01 BlasiuS wrote:If phoenix are giving you trouble, get thors. Thors hard counter phoenix since they are light air, and they are immune to gravitron beam. They are not especially weak against anything. oh and after patch 13, they will be able to trample force fields Thors really do not do as well as you'd think because they aren't able to kill the phoenix's fast enough. Plus, they're huge investments for the terran player that will take the place of other ground units that are needed to fight the protoss army. disagree, thors can fight the protoss army just fine, and you only need 1 or 2 thor in order to counter 5-6 phoenix. marine/thor/hellion should take out a zealot/sentry/phoenix army just fine in the early game. If you opened with the 1/1/1 build you should also have a raven that you can use to cast PDD as well, with some vikings on the way.
One thor might kill one or two phoenixes during the entire fight becase phoenixes have so much hp. If you wait to push out with two thors and a raven, you won't be in the early game anymore (unless you heavily cut your other units and upgrades, in which case you're screwed anyway) and the protoss will already have expanded and be macroing a large gateway army. Marines by themselves won't do crap against zealots that are covered by guardian shield.
Also, the PDD is not going to help that much. The point of the phoenix isn't necessarily to do damage to the terran army. The point is that the phoenix can disable key terran units, thereby allowing the gateways units (predominantly the zealot mass) to engage the terran army.
The better play for the terran is to play the macro game and expand. Competing on one base against a protoss isn't going to go well.
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When I use phoenixes I only have trouble if the terran has lots of marines/turrets/bunkers.
Lifting a marine is just inneffective for its cost and energy.
To compensate this Protoss players usually pump out zealots.
The hardest thing for me as a Protoss player would be if I faced a terran player who had lots of marines mixed with tanks/ghosts/vikings/ravens.
Not sure if the pdd works against the phoenixes (I think they do) but the phoenixes won't be effective then
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Only early stage are they effective if you as a terran player going for mm&m. But normally you should have scouted the Protoss player to build some turrets and then turtle for a bit to make vikings or ghosts which is so annoying to be honest (no energy and no shields).
It's amazing though because I still get stomped by mm&m 5 min pushes which I won't have my phoenixes out yet. 1-2 marauders with 3-4 marines are still hard if u got only few zealots and a stalker and 1 sentry.
So I think it's almost always a good thing if u push as soon as u can get 2-4 marines and 1-2 marauders with concussive shells to check up / harass the protoss player and affect the economy. When terrans do this to me I have a really hard time to counter this and most of the time lose.
Protoss needs 2 phoenixes to harass your mineral line and that would mean you let the Protoss build his Stargate and finish his phoenixes.
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I've been stuffed quite a few times by Terrans when I go Pheonix/Zeal/Sentry just as much as I win them. Usually what happens is they begin to turtle with bunkers, a couple turrets, etc. It almost comes down to a micro battle. You gotta remember using Pheonix play can be really micro intense since you have to lift things on your own and tell the other Pheonix's to attack it, at the same time you are controlling your ground army that involves FF's, Zealot surround. Miss microing this build can cause the Protoss player to lose. Something to think about.
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On May 21 2010 23:10 DeMusliM wrote:
it's good to get a ghost to EMP the phoenix so they have no mana, thus they can't lift off anything,
and if they have something lifted - it will cancel that.
Does it? Wow thats cool. I was struggling so hard to get my 1fac 1port 4rax FE through against phoenixes since they always went lifting my tanks, now I'm just gonna add a ghost earlier.
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I think we all know the real answer here. Clearly phoenix are annoying to terran players, and therefore they must be nerfed. We can't have that. *end sarcasm*
Seriously though, as a Toss/Zerg player, I don't do "the phoenix build" that often against terran. They just throw up a couple turrets, get some stimmed marines, etc. Sure, I can pick off an SCV here, maybe a marauder there. Honestly though, they are so expensive, the terran player can easily take advantage of my expenditures on phoenix to push or expand. They are really good versus tank, but that does not make them imba.
Against zerg, they are much more effective, because you have overlords to kill.
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The main TvP build is MM + Tank. That build works directly against this. The only massable unit Protoss can make that really counters mass marines is Collosi and if they are only getting gateway units and phoenix then they have no way of beating mass stimmed/shielded Marine/medivac with tank support. In fact the toss should get slaughtered and phoenix will be almost useless against marine numbers like that. If the gama gets late-game the addition of ghosts would both nullify ground forces they would also drain the mana of the phoenix.
As far as protecting your base it's not too diff than vs Muta (except you don't get a thor). You can either turret up your line or leave a group of marines (instead of a thor) in your base.
Personally i'd be happy if I hit this build.
Edit: After watching the replay your army composition was just meh imo. The vikings were completely useless and the thor was a waste of money. You already turret up your base so scv harass should be minimal (wasn't an issue in this game). For the cost of those vikings and thor you could of gotten more MM. The medivacs might get some phoenix hits but considering how high the dps of MM (+ tank) is I doubt they would destroy more than one MM before they started getting shot down by the marines.
Also i'm really dubious about pushing out with a force like that without at LEAST shield upgrade. I know you didn't get a tech lab rax but it would of made a world of difference. Stim wouldn't work too well without healing for rines but shield could of made a huge difference. If you delay that same push a couple of min while getting more marines while you upgrade shield (and pref +1 wep too) it would of been much more effective imo.
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On May 22 2010 00:52 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 00:18 BlasiuS wrote:On May 22 2010 00:06 xDaunt wrote:On May 22 2010 00:01 BlasiuS wrote:If phoenix are giving you trouble, get thors. Thors hard counter phoenix since they are light air, and they are immune to gravitron beam. They are not especially weak against anything. oh and after patch 13, they will be able to trample force fields Thors really do not do as well as you'd think because they aren't able to kill the phoenix's fast enough. Plus, they're huge investments for the terran player that will take the place of other ground units that are needed to fight the protoss army. disagree, thors can fight the protoss army just fine, and you only need 1 or 2 thor in order to counter 5-6 phoenix. marine/thor/hellion should take out a zealot/sentry/phoenix army just fine in the early game. If you opened with the 1/1/1 build you should also have a raven that you can use to cast PDD as well, with some vikings on the way. One thor might kill one or two phoenixes during the entire fight becase phoenixes have so much hp. If you wait to push out with two thors and a raven, you won't be in the early game anymore (unless you heavily cut your other units and upgrades, in which case you're screwed anyway) and the protoss will already have expanded and be macroing a large gateway army. Marines by themselves won't do crap against zealots that are covered by guardian shield. Also, the PDD is not going to help that much. The point of the phoenix isn't necessarily to do damage to the terran army. The point is that the phoenix can disable key terran units, thereby allowing the gateways units (predominantly the zealot mass) to engage the terran army. The better play for the terran is to play the macro game and expand. Competing on one base against a protoss isn't going to go well.
and the thor doesn't have so much hp? If toss already has an expo up when you have 2 thors and a raven, you are terrible. And phoenix can't disable thor, it's massive. I'm guessing you haven't played against thors, or haven't used thors yourself.
basically I disagree with everything you said, for reasons already explained.
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rauder pressure into FE w/ bunker followed by 5 rax. scout w/ a rax. make an ebay. macro macro macro. win.
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On May 22 2010 01:29 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 00:52 xDaunt wrote:On May 22 2010 00:18 BlasiuS wrote:On May 22 2010 00:06 xDaunt wrote:On May 22 2010 00:01 BlasiuS wrote:If phoenix are giving you trouble, get thors. Thors hard counter phoenix since they are light air, and they are immune to gravitron beam. They are not especially weak against anything. oh and after patch 13, they will be able to trample force fields Thors really do not do as well as you'd think because they aren't able to kill the phoenix's fast enough. Plus, they're huge investments for the terran player that will take the place of other ground units that are needed to fight the protoss army. disagree, thors can fight the protoss army just fine, and you only need 1 or 2 thor in order to counter 5-6 phoenix. marine/thor/hellion should take out a zealot/sentry/phoenix army just fine in the early game. If you opened with the 1/1/1 build you should also have a raven that you can use to cast PDD as well, with some vikings on the way. One thor might kill one or two phoenixes during the entire fight becase phoenixes have so much hp. If you wait to push out with two thors and a raven, you won't be in the early game anymore (unless you heavily cut your other units and upgrades, in which case you're screwed anyway) and the protoss will already have expanded and be macroing a large gateway army. Marines by themselves won't do crap against zealots that are covered by guardian shield. Also, the PDD is not going to help that much. The point of the phoenix isn't necessarily to do damage to the terran army. The point is that the phoenix can disable key terran units, thereby allowing the gateways units (predominantly the zealot mass) to engage the terran army. The better play for the terran is to play the macro game and expand. Competing on one base against a protoss isn't going to go well. and the thor doesn't have so much hp? If toss already has an expo up when you have 2 thors and a raven, you are terrible. And phoenix can't disable thor, it's massive. I'm guessing you haven't played against thors, or haven't used thors yourself. basically I disagree with everything you said, for reasons already explained.
Yes, I have played against the thors using the phoenix build. I do not need to lift the thor. I just need to lift hellions and marauders. My zealots (with a sentry/stalker support) take care of the rest. I neither need nor want to kill the thors first. In fact, the thors are the last things that die.
I think you're misunderstanding the issue. It really does not matter what the terran gets against the protoss player when he goes phoenix + gateway units. If the terran decides to stay on one base, he's going to have problems. If the terran pushes out early, he's going to get run over by a gate+phoenix build because of the sheer amount of units that a protoss player can field early on. If he techs up on one base, he's going to be horribly out-macro'd by the protoss player who will see exactly what the terran player is doing and take an early expansion while the terran is still in the dark. The best way to go for the terran is to take the natural and bunker up a bit.
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On May 22 2010 01:52 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 01:29 BlasiuS wrote:On May 22 2010 00:52 xDaunt wrote:On May 22 2010 00:18 BlasiuS wrote:On May 22 2010 00:06 xDaunt wrote:On May 22 2010 00:01 BlasiuS wrote:If phoenix are giving you trouble, get thors. Thors hard counter phoenix since they are light air, and they are immune to gravitron beam. They are not especially weak against anything. oh and after patch 13, they will be able to trample force fields Thors really do not do as well as you'd think because they aren't able to kill the phoenix's fast enough. Plus, they're huge investments for the terran player that will take the place of other ground units that are needed to fight the protoss army. disagree, thors can fight the protoss army just fine, and you only need 1 or 2 thor in order to counter 5-6 phoenix. marine/thor/hellion should take out a zealot/sentry/phoenix army just fine in the early game. If you opened with the 1/1/1 build you should also have a raven that you can use to cast PDD as well, with some vikings on the way. One thor might kill one or two phoenixes during the entire fight becase phoenixes have so much hp. If you wait to push out with two thors and a raven, you won't be in the early game anymore (unless you heavily cut your other units and upgrades, in which case you're screwed anyway) and the protoss will already have expanded and be macroing a large gateway army. Marines by themselves won't do crap against zealots that are covered by guardian shield. Also, the PDD is not going to help that much. The point of the phoenix isn't necessarily to do damage to the terran army. The point is that the phoenix can disable key terran units, thereby allowing the gateways units (predominantly the zealot mass) to engage the terran army. The better play for the terran is to play the macro game and expand. Competing on one base against a protoss isn't going to go well. and the thor doesn't have so much hp? If toss already has an expo up when you have 2 thors and a raven, you are terrible. And phoenix can't disable thor, it's massive. I'm guessing you haven't played against thors, or haven't used thors yourself. basically I disagree with everything you said, for reasons already explained. It really does not matter what the terran gets against the protoss player when he goes phoenix + gateway units.
You think a phoenix opening is unbeatable? Of course not. Don't post garbage.
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On May 22 2010 01:58 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 01:52 xDaunt wrote:On May 22 2010 01:29 BlasiuS wrote:On May 22 2010 00:52 xDaunt wrote:On May 22 2010 00:18 BlasiuS wrote:On May 22 2010 00:06 xDaunt wrote:On May 22 2010 00:01 BlasiuS wrote:If phoenix are giving you trouble, get thors. Thors hard counter phoenix since they are light air, and they are immune to gravitron beam. They are not especially weak against anything. oh and after patch 13, they will be able to trample force fields Thors really do not do as well as you'd think because they aren't able to kill the phoenix's fast enough. Plus, they're huge investments for the terran player that will take the place of other ground units that are needed to fight the protoss army. disagree, thors can fight the protoss army just fine, and you only need 1 or 2 thor in order to counter 5-6 phoenix. marine/thor/hellion should take out a zealot/sentry/phoenix army just fine in the early game. If you opened with the 1/1/1 build you should also have a raven that you can use to cast PDD as well, with some vikings on the way. One thor might kill one or two phoenixes during the entire fight becase phoenixes have so much hp. If you wait to push out with two thors and a raven, you won't be in the early game anymore (unless you heavily cut your other units and upgrades, in which case you're screwed anyway) and the protoss will already have expanded and be macroing a large gateway army. Marines by themselves won't do crap against zealots that are covered by guardian shield. Also, the PDD is not going to help that much. The point of the phoenix isn't necessarily to do damage to the terran army. The point is that the phoenix can disable key terran units, thereby allowing the gateways units (predominantly the zealot mass) to engage the terran army. The better play for the terran is to play the macro game and expand. Competing on one base against a protoss isn't going to go well. and the thor doesn't have so much hp? If toss already has an expo up when you have 2 thors and a raven, you are terrible. And phoenix can't disable thor, it's massive. I'm guessing you haven't played against thors, or haven't used thors yourself. basically I disagree with everything you said, for reasons already explained. It really does not matter what the terran gets against the protoss player when he goes phoenix + gateway units. You think a phoenix opening is unbeatable? Of course not. Don't post garbage.
Are you even reading what I'm saying? I never claimed that the phoenix build is unbeatable. I gave the exact, proper response for beating it: take an expo, bunker up, and play the macro game. You obviously don't even understand how or why the phoenix build works. It's not about directly countering specific terran army compositions. What the phoenix build does is ensure the protoss player early game map control and perfect scouting, thereby allowing a protoss to either, A) take an early expansion safely, or B) punish a terran player that is foolish enough to push out early off of one base. What the phoenix build can't do is allow the protoss player to successfully, directly attack a terran hardpoint (ie bunkers and fortified chokepoints). Therefore, all the terran needs to do is expand and bunker.
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On May 22 2010 02:07 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 01:58 BlasiuS wrote:On May 22 2010 01:52 xDaunt wrote:On May 22 2010 01:29 BlasiuS wrote:On May 22 2010 00:52 xDaunt wrote:On May 22 2010 00:18 BlasiuS wrote:On May 22 2010 00:06 xDaunt wrote:On May 22 2010 00:01 BlasiuS wrote:If phoenix are giving you trouble, get thors. Thors hard counter phoenix since they are light air, and they are immune to gravitron beam. They are not especially weak against anything. oh and after patch 13, they will be able to trample force fields Thors really do not do as well as you'd think because they aren't able to kill the phoenix's fast enough. Plus, they're huge investments for the terran player that will take the place of other ground units that are needed to fight the protoss army. disagree, thors can fight the protoss army just fine, and you only need 1 or 2 thor in order to counter 5-6 phoenix. marine/thor/hellion should take out a zealot/sentry/phoenix army just fine in the early game. If you opened with the 1/1/1 build you should also have a raven that you can use to cast PDD as well, with some vikings on the way. One thor might kill one or two phoenixes during the entire fight becase phoenixes have so much hp. If you wait to push out with two thors and a raven, you won't be in the early game anymore (unless you heavily cut your other units and upgrades, in which case you're screwed anyway) and the protoss will already have expanded and be macroing a large gateway army. Marines by themselves won't do crap against zealots that are covered by guardian shield. Also, the PDD is not going to help that much. The point of the phoenix isn't necessarily to do damage to the terran army. The point is that the phoenix can disable key terran units, thereby allowing the gateways units (predominantly the zealot mass) to engage the terran army. The better play for the terran is to play the macro game and expand. Competing on one base against a protoss isn't going to go well. and the thor doesn't have so much hp? If toss already has an expo up when you have 2 thors and a raven, you are terrible. And phoenix can't disable thor, it's massive. I'm guessing you haven't played against thors, or haven't used thors yourself. basically I disagree with everything you said, for reasons already explained. It really does not matter what the terran gets against the protoss player when he goes phoenix + gateway units. You think a phoenix opening is unbeatable? Of course not. Don't post garbage. Are you even reading what I'm saying? I never claimed that the phoenix build is unbeatable. I gave the exact, proper response for beating it: take an expo, bunker up, and play the macro game. You obviously don't even understand how or why the phoenix build works. It's not about directly countering specific terran army compositions. What the phoenix build does is ensure the protoss player early game map control and perfect scouting, thereby allowing a protoss to either, A) take an early expansion safely, or B) punish a terran player that is foolish enough to push out early off of one base. What the phoenix build can't do is allow the protoss player to successfully, directly attack a terran hardpoint (ie bunkers and fortified chokepoints). Therefore, all the terran needs to do is expand and bunker.
Of course I'm not reading what you're saying. I stopped reading here:
On May 22 2010 01:52 xDaunt wrote:
It really does not matter what the terran gets against the protoss player when he goes phoenix + gateway units.
expoing is NOT the only way to beat phoenix.
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Your problem is is that you're thinking too much about hard counters
Marine Marauder Tank simply eats up Zealot Stalker Pheonix
Marines kill Pheonixes
Marauders and Tanks destroy infantry
Pheonixes are also a large investment, just scout out the stargate and pump marines and you should be fine
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Marines
Ghosts
Vikings
If the Protoss is going air, you should probably have at least two of these units in your army working in cohesion. Also if the Protoss is committing to a decent number of Phoenix, his Stalker count will be low most likely. Suppliment your army with some Hellions. Other than that it's down to micro and positioning.
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Phoenix play, imo, really depends on not getting scouted to be most effective. Terran's most effective way of stopping phoenix is just not getting harassed and making a army large in number of units (aka marines) when you have phoenix costing 150/100 that never manage to kill any of your workers, in a battle they can lift maybe 2 units? They can pick up two 50 mineral marines, which will die fast, or pick up two 100/25 marauders, which might now even die since phoenix do tickle damage to them.
When fighting phoenix you can try using vikings, but just massing marines and getting marauders in there too to deal with ground can stop protoss. If protoss masses and gets just 8 phoenix, that's 1200/800... that's the same as not having 8 stalkers and 4 sentries just based on resource value. And if you mix in ghosts later on, just get cloak when you move out, he might not even have a robotics. EMP the phoenix before you engage and now protoss has expensive paper airplanes.
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Thanks for all these constructive answers guys. So far I see three possible counters from this discussion;
1. Cloaked Ghost
2. Cloaked Banshee
3. Turtle+Expansion
By pursuing Stargate, Protoss lacks detection early, so early harass with cloaked Banshee sounds good while Terran safely expands. Problem on this build would be that Banshees can't outrun Phoenixes so once it runs out of energy you're in trouble.
Ghost's EMP also nullifies Phoenix's ability, but cloaking is necessary as Phoenix can easily lift of Ghost first and take it out.
Since Phoenix can't lift buildings, expanding with Bunker and Turret also make sense.
Later on Phoenix's effectiveness will be minimal thanks to massive amount of Marines Terran can accumulate relative to Phoenixes, which should put Terran at advantage.
I think after patch 13 Voidrays won't be much of a problem as much as current version. So the TvP game should be a bit balanced imo.
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The phoenix build is definitely very good.
1. It allows for awesome scouting.
2. It is VERY effective against the MM tank build.
3. It is less strong against mass MMG builds. In that case, you only build one and use it for scouting purposes only. Still not a waste.
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vikings beat pheonix, you already have a starport. ???? profit.
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On May 22 2010 03:27 stroggos wrote:
vikings beat pheonix, you already have a starport. ???? profit.
Vikings do not beat Phoenix. They have about the same DPS and Phoenix has higher HP while Viking has higher range. In the end, Phoenix has slightly more edge because even though Viking has more range, it is alot slower than Phoenix so it cannot run away while Phoenix can perform moving shot or run away easily.
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On May 22 2010 02:55 mrlie3 wrote:
Thanks for all these constructive answers guys. So far I see three possible counters from this discussion;
1. Cloaked Ghost
2. Cloaked Banshee
3. Turtle+Expansion
1 and 2 sound way too gimmicky, espescially if you're late scouting or are already feeling pressure from the toss. Terrans are undeniably the best turtlers, so I find it very very easy to FE after rax toss down some bunkers(still turtling just with a natural ^^), 3 or 4 more raxs and then just steamroll him after your nat is up and running. If he resists the push, just hold your natural (dont salvage the bunkers immediately after pushing out!) and get your starport up. Ravens, banshees, and vikings are all very good against this comp. I would impressed to see a toss resist the 5 rax push with ghosts if he is spending so much money on phoenixes, which is going to be negated by an infantry heavy army.
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8748 Posts
In my opinion, expanding and macroing is the safe/standard response to Phoenix/Zealot/Sentry. Get just enough defense against Phoenixes as you need and start heading toward a solid unit composition ASAP. If your unit composition is not solid, keep in mind that the Protoss is seeing everything you are doing and almost always has the option of building a composition that beats your composition. I'm not sure what the Terran should go for exactly. I just know that you can't do something too extreme (a ton of marines [hello colossus] or a ton of vikings [phoenix are gonna own you anyway] don't seem to work)
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On May 22 2010 03:54 antihope wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 02:55 mrlie3 wrote:
Thanks for all these constructive answers guys. So far I see three possible counters from this discussion;
1. Cloaked Ghost
2. Cloaked Banshee
3. Turtle+Expansion
1 and 2 sound way too gimmicky, espescially if you're late scouting or are already feeling pressure from the toss. Terrans are undeniably the best turtlers, so I find it very very easy to FE after rax toss down some bunkers(still turtling just with a natural ^^), 3 or 4 more raxs and then just steamroll him after your nat is up and running. If he resists the push, just hold your natural (dont salvage the bunkers immediately after pushing out!) and get your starport up. Ravens, banshees, and vikings are all very good against this comp. I would impressed to see a toss resist the 5 rax push with ghosts if he is spending so much money on phoenixes, which is going to be negated by an infantry heavy army.
If the toss is properly using the phoenix build, he'll see the 5 rax push coming well in advance to be prepared for it. In other words, he's not going to stupidly sink all of his resources into phoenixes. Just because the toss has a stargate does not mean that he has to build anything from it. That's the beauty of the build. It gives the toss perfect information on what the terran is doing, denies the terran the same unless the terran wants to burn scans, and gives the toss early map control. All of this allows the protoss to transition out of phoenixes and into something more appropriate and sustainable in the long run. I think this is the key point that a lot of you are missing in this thread.The phoenixes are merely the means to this end. They are not the end, itself.
This is also why I strongly advise against using quick banshees against a phoenix opening. A good toss will see it coming and will have observers ready. A terran tried banshees against me last night and I stuffed him outright because I saw it coming with plenty of warning to prepare.
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Viking/Banshee/Marine.
Standard econ build, 12rax/13gas/15orbital. 2nd gas before factory. Factory, reactor on Barracks, Starport, tech add on to factory, another starport, another tech add on.
Lift your factory and use it to scout. When you see what he's doing you can adjust your Viking to Banshee ratio. Always get cloak + Viking first. If you see Stargate tech you can build 2 vikings then hit with your 1 cloaked banshee, you will be able to hold any push with your marines+bunker + 2 vikings.
If you see 4 gate or 3 gate/robo, get 2 banshees then 3 vikings, then only banshees and expand. You can hold the push before you have cloak with your bunker and couple of banshees and if he does a later stronger push you can use scan/vikings to pick off his observers.
Once you take your expansion, get another orbital and throw on 3 more starports. Mass Banshees/Vikings and win.
I'm a 2250 Terran and that has worked extremely well for me.
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On May 22 2010 04:13 Bro wrote:
Viking/Banshee/Marine.
Standard econ build, 12rax/13gas/15orbital. 2nd gas before factory. Factory, reactor on Barracks, Starport, tech add on to factory, another starport, another tech add on.
Lift your factory and use it to scout. When you see what he's doing you can adjust your Viking to Banshee ratio. Always get cloak + Viking first. If you see Stargate tech you can build 2 vikings then hit with your 1 cloaked banshee, you will be able to hold any push with your marines+bunker + 2 vikings.
If you see 4 gate or 3 gate/robo, get 2 banshees then 3 vikings, then only banshees and expand. You can hold the push before you have cloak with your bunker and couple of banshees and if he does a later stronger push you can use scan/vikings to pick off his observers.
Once you take your expansion, get another orbital and throw on 3 more starports. Mass Banshees/Vikings and win.
I'm a 2250 Terran and that has worked extremely well for me.
I like your build. Can you provide a replay?
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I'm actually on the other side of the fence on this issue. I've been trying phoenixes quite a bit lately PvT, and the issue I have is with turtly terrans who macro hard mm+ghost+tank off 1 base. I specifically have issues knowing when to expo / transition to collossi. If someone can provide advice / replay on how to transition it would be great.
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I think you should giggle* when your opponent goes voidrays or phoenixes because it isn't that effective imo. It is really micro intensive for protoss to harass with phoenixes while macroing at the same time. If you just build marines and vikings than it's really easy to counter it. As a P player I usually just leave once I know my harass is ineffective because terran is so much ahead if it fails.
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On May 22 2010 04:06 xDaunt wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 22 2010 03:54 antihope wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 02:55 mrlie3 wrote:
Thanks for all these constructive answers guys. So far I see three possible counters from this discussion;
1. Cloaked Ghost
2. Cloaked Banshee
3. Turtle+Expansion
1 and 2 sound way too gimmicky, espescially if you're late scouting or are already feeling pressure from the toss. Terrans are undeniably the best turtlers, so I find it very very easy to FE after rax toss down some bunkers(still turtling just with a natural ^^), 3 or 4 more raxs and then just steamroll him after your nat is up and running. If he resists the push, just hold your natural (dont salvage the bunkers immediately after pushing out!) and get your starport up. Ravens, banshees, and vikings are all very good against this comp. I would impressed to see a toss resist the 5 rax push with ghosts if he is spending so much money on phoenixes, which is going to be negated by an infantry heavy army. If the toss is properly using the phoenix build, he'll see the 5 rax push coming well in advance to be prepared for it. In other words, he's not going to stupidly sink all of his resources into phoenixes. Just because the toss has a stargate does not mean that he has to build anything from it. That's the beauty of the build. It gives the toss perfect information on what the terran is doing, denies the terran the same unless the terran wants to burn scans, and gives the toss early map control. All of this allows the protoss to transition out of phoenixes and into something more appropriate and sustainable in the long run. I think this is the key point that a lot of you are missing in this thread.The phoenixes are merely the means to this end. They are not the end, itself. This is also why I strongly advise against using quick banshees against a phoenix opening. A good toss will see it coming and will have observers ready. A terran tried banshees against me last night and I stuffed him outright because I saw it coming with plenty of warning to prepare.
I'm not disagreeing at all. Banshees would be disastrous in this situation. In fact I think Nony is correct as usual in stating that you shouldn't go too heavily towards anything. I've not played against high plat using this so take this all with a grain of salt, but I don't feel the terran is really at any severe disadvantage UNLESS he tries to go for a gimmicky win. I won't complain about being 'forced' to 2 base, and 2 OC's mean I will have almost as much intelligence as the toss, obviously not as much but I'll get to see the key things. I've yet to see collosus in this BO and so Nony has definitely put that in the back of my mind for next time.
I think it's safe to say that tanks ARE going to be neutralized by the phoenix, assuming more than one are made (which the toss is going to let you know about via scv sniping), so naturally you will have some extra gas and I really like the raven and the ghost in this position. The raven more so if you see mid game stalkers, otherwise the PDD is only for the phoenix and is wasteful. Ghost play with the upgraded 25 energy to start (especially since its almost free now that shield+stim is 100/100 cheaper) is definitely key.
I take back the sortof 'instawin' attitude my previous post implied but am still firm in that the terran is still on equal footing if he can manage to take and defend his natural from the first push. It will just come down to army comp and decisions on when and where to engage. But without the expansion you're going to get overrun for sure.
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On May 22 2010 04:20 link0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 04:13 Bro wrote:
Viking/Banshee/Marine.
Standard econ build, 12rax/13gas/15orbital. 2nd gas before factory. Factory, reactor on Barracks, Starport, tech add on to factory, another starport, another tech add on.
Lift your factory and use it to scout. When you see what he's doing you can adjust your Viking to Banshee ratio. Always get cloak + Viking first. If you see Stargate tech you can build 2 vikings then hit with your 1 cloaked banshee, you will be able to hold any push with your marines+bunker + 2 vikings.
If you see 4 gate or 3 gate/robo, get 2 banshees then 3 vikings, then only banshees and expand. You can hold the push before you have cloak with your bunker and couple of banshees and if he does a later stronger push you can use scan/vikings to pick off his observers.
Once you take your expansion, get another orbital and throw on 3 more starports. Mass Banshees/Vikings and win.
I'm a 2250 Terran and that has worked extremely well for me. I like your build. Can you provide a replay?
I will post a couple as soon as this patch gets downloaded. Buff terran again? Thanks blizzard.
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On May 22 2010 04:06 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 03:54 antihope wrote:On May 22 2010 02:55 mrlie3 wrote:
Thanks for all these constructive answers guys. So far I see three possible counters from this discussion;
1. Cloaked Ghost
2. Cloaked Banshee
3. Turtle+Expansion
1 and 2 sound way too gimmicky, espescially if you're late scouting or are already feeling pressure from the toss. Terrans are undeniably the best turtlers, so I find it very very easy to FE after rax toss down some bunkers(still turtling just with a natural ^^), 3 or 4 more raxs and then just steamroll him after your nat is up and running. If he resists the push, just hold your natural (dont salvage the bunkers immediately after pushing out!) and get your starport up. Ravens, banshees, and vikings are all very good against this comp. I would impressed to see a toss resist the 5 rax push with ghosts if he is spending so much money on phoenixes, which is going to be negated by an infantry heavy army. If the toss is properly using the phoenix build, he'll see the 5 rax push coming well in advance to be prepared for it. In other words, he's not going to stupidly sink all of his resources into phoenixes. Just because the toss has a stargate does not mean that he has to build anything from it. That's the beauty of the build. It gives the toss perfect information on what the terran is doing, denies the terran the same unless the terran wants to burn scans, and gives the toss early map control. All of this allows the protoss to transition out of phoenixes and into something more appropriate and sustainable in the long run. I think this is the key point that a lot of you are missing in this thread.The phoenixes are merely the means to this end. They are not the end, itself. This is also why I strongly advise against using quick banshees against a phoenix opening. A good toss will see it coming and will have observers ready. A terran tried banshees against me last night and I stuffed him outright because I saw it coming with plenty of warning to prepare.
+1 all the way. Strength of the Phoenix+Gateway build is that it gives 1) map control; and 2) god's eye with Phoenix. This gives Protoss as much flexibility as Terran's 1/1/1 production, maybe even more.
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On May 21 2010 13:25 Sevenofnines wrote:
You can try Gretorp's Marine/Ghost opening. EMP makes the Phoenixes wasted food against a ground army, as well as softening up his Gateway units. Make a couple bunkers at your choke if needed, and turrets by your mineral line if he tries to fly by.
Yeah this should really crush it.
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On May 22 2010 04:13 Bro wrote:
Viking/Banshee/Marine.
Standard econ build, 12rax/13gas/15orbital. 2nd gas before factory. Factory, reactor on Barracks, Starport, tech add on to factory, another starport, another tech add on.
Lift your factory and use it to scout. When you see what he's doing you can adjust your Viking to Banshee ratio. Always get cloak + Viking first. If you see Stargate tech you can build 2 vikings then hit with your 1 cloaked banshee, you will be able to hold any push with your marines+bunker + 2 vikings.
If you see 4 gate or 3 gate/robo, get 2 banshees then 3 vikings, then only banshees and expand. You can hold the push before you have cloak with your bunker and couple of banshees and if he does a later stronger push you can use scan/vikings to pick off his observers.
Once you take your expansion, get another orbital and throw on 3 more starports. Mass Banshees/Vikings and win.
I'm a 2250 Terran and that has worked extremely well for me.
this build is extremely hard to deal as protoss...I guess high templar might be a solution to this build but haven't tried it out yet...
I lost to this build quite a few times =(
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On May 21 2010 13:18 avilo wrote:yep, you just said every counter there is. Mainly the 1/1/1 aka raven opening. reactored marines, viking production, and accumulate tanks/hellions. I have played versus this phoenix build a lot now, and I can tell you that the protoss is going to be going heavy zealots a majority of the time when he keeps accumulating phoenix/void rays. so keep up viking production, and marine production, as well as tanks, and get a second fact and switch it to your reactor for igniter hellions and push out. Around that timing Protoss will usually have their natural just getting up and running -> which you will kill it's not so easy as I make it sound (lol) but that is the general idea. And never leave your base too early, or you're going to be phoenix backstabbed and lose like 10+ scvs
This definitely doesn't make much sense, though I think you have a decent idea..
Anyone who goes phoenixes as P isn't going for any macro game, at least not without doing a ton of damage EARLY, where your build is kind of at a dead end. As P you can easily support 3 gate phoenix, where you will have around 4-5 phoenixes when you attempt to break the Terran. Most of the time Terrans are still struggling hard to pump out enough tanks to defend a push, and at most will have like 2 bunkers. Bunkers don't really make a difference though against a push like this mainly because all your damage is in your 2-3 tanks, being lifted by the phoenixes, while the zealots and stalkers kill both bunkers in like 2-3 volleys at the most a piece.
It hardly gives time to get hellions out, which do nothing vs stalkers.
Another thing, a good build will contain more than half stalkers with just some zealots to tank while you break the base. I haven't been stopped hardly ever, if ever in a meaningful match... Protoss one base play is just so hard to judge because of stargate tech.
If you go for fast banshee, you can just scout the T base with your first 2 phoenixes and push in before he would get cloak. Just seems like it needs some adjusting to me.
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On May 22 2010 06:37 mrlie3 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 04:06 xDaunt wrote:On May 22 2010 03:54 antihope wrote:On May 22 2010 02:55 mrlie3 wrote:
Thanks for all these constructive answers guys. So far I see three possible counters from this discussion;
1. Cloaked Ghost
2. Cloaked Banshee
3. Turtle+Expansion
1 and 2 sound way too gimmicky, espescially if you're late scouting or are already feeling pressure from the toss. Terrans are undeniably the best turtlers, so I find it very very easy to FE after rax toss down some bunkers(still turtling just with a natural ^^), 3 or 4 more raxs and then just steamroll him after your nat is up and running. If he resists the push, just hold your natural (dont salvage the bunkers immediately after pushing out!) and get your starport up. Ravens, banshees, and vikings are all very good against this comp. I would impressed to see a toss resist the 5 rax push with ghosts if he is spending so much money on phoenixes, which is going to be negated by an infantry heavy army. If the toss is properly using the phoenix build, he'll see the 5 rax push coming well in advance to be prepared for it. In other words, he's not going to stupidly sink all of his resources into phoenixes. Just because the toss has a stargate does not mean that he has to build anything from it. That's the beauty of the build. It gives the toss perfect information on what the terran is doing, denies the terran the same unless the terran wants to burn scans, and gives the toss early map control. All of this allows the protoss to transition out of phoenixes and into something more appropriate and sustainable in the long run. I think this is the key point that a lot of you are missing in this thread.The phoenixes are merely the means to this end. They are not the end, itself. This is also why I strongly advise against using quick banshees against a phoenix opening. A good toss will see it coming and will have observers ready. A terran tried banshees against me last night and I stuffed him outright because I saw it coming with plenty of warning to prepare. +1 all the way. Strength of the Phoenix+Gateway build is that it gives 1) map control; and 2) god's eye with Phoenix. This gives Protoss as much flexibility as Terran's 1/1/1 production, maybe even more.
I dont think so, since the time and ressources spent are definitely more than a couple of scans would consume. after a phoenix opening the protoss can stay on stargates (probably not) or transition to either robotics or gates or templars. but he actually still has to decide where to go while a terran 1/1/1 opening allready has everything besides ghosts and BCs.
even with the phoenix opening: the P players tech is still far more restricted. so i dont think this is the advantage of it. i think the mapcontrol and scouting part is the advantage.
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I have yet to loose a TvP with gretorp's ghost-marine build. Its... just brilliant! And when he reacts by getting collosi, (which he will, if he hasn't lost already), simply add more marauders into the mix, and get vikings.
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On May 22 2010 07:01 The6357 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 04:13 Bro wrote:
Viking/Banshee/Marine.
Standard econ build, 12rax/13gas/15orbital. 2nd gas before factory. Factory, reactor on Barracks, Starport, tech add on to factory, another starport, another tech add on.
Lift your factory and use it to scout. When you see what he's doing you can adjust your Viking to Banshee ratio. Always get cloak + Viking first. If you see Stargate tech you can build 2 vikings then hit with your 1 cloaked banshee, you will be able to hold any push with your marines+bunker + 2 vikings.
If you see 4 gate or 3 gate/robo, get 2 banshees then 3 vikings, then only banshees and expand. You can hold the push before you have cloak with your bunker and couple of banshees and if he does a later stronger push you can use scan/vikings to pick off his observers.
Once you take your expansion, get another orbital and throw on 3 more starports. Mass Banshees/Vikings and win.
I'm a 2250 Terran and that has worked extremely well for me. this build is extremely hard to deal as protoss...I guess high templar might be a solution to this build but haven't tried it out yet... I lost to this build quite a few times =(
Templar is a pretty decent counter. Blink Stalkers into templar.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 22 2010 04:06 xDaunt wrote:
If the toss is properly using the phoenix build, he'll see the 5 rax push coming well in advance to be prepared for it. In other words, he's not going to stupidly sink all of his resources into phoenixes. Just because the toss has a stargate does not mean that he has to build anything from it. That's the beauty of the build. It gives the toss perfect information on what the terran is doing, denies the terran the same unless the terran wants to burn scans, and gives the toss early map control. All of this allows the protoss to transition out of phoenixes and into something more appropriate and sustainable in the long run. I think this is the key point that a lot of you are missing in this thread.The phoenixes are merely the means to this end. They are not the end, itself.
This is also why I strongly advise against using quick banshees against a phoenix opening. A good toss will see it coming and will have observers ready. A terran tried banshees against me last night and I stuffed him outright because I saw it coming with plenty of warning to prepare.
Agree with this. The phoenixes themselves won't kill you, but it will have you scrambling and then the Toss transitions with macro advantage and ends the game. Hence why I don't feel Vikings are that great since they are pretty much useless against most transitions. Making too many Marines is simply asking for Colossi, and Thors can be easily countered by Voidrays which he has the Stargates for already. Hence, I still prefer the Ghost option against this build since EMP is good against everything Toss has so they will still be very useful no matter what the Toss player transitions to.
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On May 22 2010 12:02 Sevenofnines wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 22 2010 04:06 xDaunt wrote:
If the toss is properly using the phoenix build, he'll see the 5 rax push coming well in advance to be prepared for it. In other words, he's not going to stupidly sink all of his resources into phoenixes. Just because the toss has a stargate does not mean that he has to build anything from it. That's the beauty of the build. It gives the toss perfect information on what the terran is doing, denies the terran the same unless the terran wants to burn scans, and gives the toss early map control. All of this allows the protoss to transition out of phoenixes and into something more appropriate and sustainable in the long run. I think this is the key point that a lot of you are missing in this thread.The phoenixes are merely the means to this end. They are not the end, itself.
This is also why I strongly advise against using quick banshees against a phoenix opening. A good toss will see it coming and will have observers ready. A terran tried banshees against me last night and I stuffed him outright because I saw it coming with plenty of warning to prepare. Agree with this. The phoenixes themselves won't kill you, but it will have you scrambling and then the Toss transitions with macro advantage and ends the game. Hence why I don't feel Vikings are that great since they are pretty much useless against most transitions. Making too many Marines is simply asking for Colossi, and Thors can be easily countered by Voidrays which he has the Stargates for already. Hence, I still prefer the Ghost option against this build since EMP is good against everything Toss has so they will still be very useful no matter what the Toss player transitions to.
you say that too many marines is asking for colossi and at the same time you say that vikings are useless against most transitions? also you forget that they can help you to keep his economy low.
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On May 22 2010 12:02 Sevenofnines wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 22 2010 04:06 xDaunt wrote:
If the toss is properly using the phoenix build, he'll see the 5 rax push coming well in advance to be prepared for it. In other words, he's not going to stupidly sink all of his resources into phoenixes. Just because the toss has a stargate does not mean that he has to build anything from it. That's the beauty of the build. It gives the toss perfect information on what the terran is doing, denies the terran the same unless the terran wants to burn scans, and gives the toss early map control. All of this allows the protoss to transition out of phoenixes and into something more appropriate and sustainable in the long run. I think this is the key point that a lot of you are missing in this thread.The phoenixes are merely the means to this end. They are not the end, itself.
This is also why I strongly advise against using quick banshees against a phoenix opening. A good toss will see it coming and will have observers ready. A terran tried banshees against me last night and I stuffed him outright because I saw it coming with plenty of warning to prepare. Agree with this. The phoenixes themselves won't kill you, but it will have you scrambling and then the Toss transitions with macro advantage and ends the game. Hence why I don't feel Vikings are that great since they are pretty much useless against most transitions. Making too many Marines is simply asking for Colossi, and Thors can be easily countered by Voidrays which he has the Stargates for already. Hence, I still prefer the Ghost option against this build since EMP is good against everything Toss has so they will still be very useful no matter what the Toss player transitions to.
Building too many marines against toss is bad for a lot of reasons, not just the inevitable switch to colossi or high templar. Building too many marines for an early-mid game push (like a marine/tank/raven push) is just asking for guardian shield abuse. After your tanks get lifted, your only dps will come from your marines, which guardian shield will reduce by 1/3. You're simply going to get torn up by protoss ground troops.
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I find the use of phoenixes vs terran intriguing, but I have yet to try it (was ~1500 toss plat), as the 150 min 100 gas investment for a phoenix seems a bit high. Against terran I think it could work the first fight you use it, but the next time the terran will expect them and plan accordingly; some stimmed rines or a thor will take down any phoenixes channeling their graviton beam very quickly, or simply EMPing them will render them completely useless
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Do as the handsome do. E M P
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With the new changes to buff marines in Patch 13, I have found it easier to counter early phoenix(es)? (phoeni? not sure of the plural of phoenix) by just accumulating a small amount of marines to handle air drops/harass in general. As well as a few well placed turrets, any phoenix attacks to your mineral line will end in disaster for them while not forcing you to over-commit to building mass marines to get eaten alive by a protoss army with guardian shield.
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On May 21 2010 13:25 Sevenofnines wrote:
You can try Gretorp's Marine/Ghost opening. EMP makes the Phoenixes wasted food against a ground army, as well as softening up his Gateway units. Make a couple bunkers at your choke if needed, and turrets by your mineral line if he tries to fly by.
Seconded, had much success with Gretorps ghost/marine opening against Protoss.
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Going the macro+marine build just seems to be begging for colossus to tear you up. Just because he put a vanilla starport down (or 2) doesn't mean he can't go colossi, especially if you are turtling up at your natural and leaving him the rest of the map.
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marauder/marine/viking works pretty well against it, however, you need to turret up whenever you are ready to push out ;].
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I'm not sure about timings, but I've countered it at silver with ghosts and emp, although I get the feeling this push came a little earlier. I'll watch the rep and come back.
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Here's a replay from last night from one of my placement matches. Shows the phoenix+gateway build against a marines+tanks+raven push. After the first push, he pushes again with hellions and finally gets thors. None of them works very well. You can also see the eventual transition into colossi, which was slower in this game because of the constant fighting.
I think the main point to take from the replay is that attacking off one base against the build probably is not the best of ideas when you see the phoenixes flying around. I'm not sure that I've played against a straight up Gretorp build (marines + ghost) while doing phoenix play, but I don't see why I'd have many problems against it if the terran pushes out, especially if I see it coming and have time to prepare.
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I use the phoenix build in PvT and PvP depending on maps and all I can say is don't stay on one base, expand and throw down some static D to stop harass. It forces the P to respond with an expansion because most of the time the P isn't going to throw his ball + phoenix into turreted bunkered T expos. While the expo is going up push out with a force that counters his.
If worse comes to worse, just out macro the P... unless your playing against nony chances are all the extra micro is going to put a strain on the P's macro. I know my macro slips with the phoenix build, I mean I can still use it effectively, but against a macro powerhouse of an opponent my ball just ends up getting crushed on the first timing push.
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EPT
